A Question for Gun Advocates

[EPresence2]

Here's a Jim Jefferies video on gun control in America - Hilarious and rings (mostly) true to me (and I have many guns). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fP3HJVp3n9c&sns=em

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Huh? The paperwork about cars is an anti-theft measure. Around here I simply take the plates off when I sell a car and give the buyer the signed title. I then either return the plates to the DMV or have the DMV put the plates on the replacement car. What became of the old car is of no concern, I do not tell the DMV what I did with it.

It wasn't anything to do with cars, not plates. The point was registration, that the item, whatever it is, is registered in your name and any inquiry as to its whereabouts begins with you. You are held accountable for whatever happens to your registered item, a firearm in this instance.

The point is there was no procedure in the system that told the DMV who now owned the car. If they filed the paperwork, fine, but if they didn't the last registered owner is me. The last car I sold I doubt they bothered to file the paperwork as it wasn't going anywhere ever again. I returned the plates to DMV (a slight difference in the registration of the new car meant I couldn't keep the old plates) and that was that. If someone used the car for criminal purposes (it was drivable, just leaking oil badly) there would have been no consequences for me.

 

[EPresence2]

It wasn't anything to do with cars, not plates. The point was registration, that the item, whatever it is, is registered in your name and any inquiry as to its whereabouts begins with you. You are held accountable for whatever happens to your registered item, a firearm in this instance.

The point is there was no procedure in the system that told the DMV who now owned the car. If they filed the paperwork, fine, but if they didn't the last registered owner is me. The last car I sold I doubt they bothered to file the paperwork as it wasn't going anywhere ever again. I returned the plates to DMV (a slight difference in the registration of the new car meant I couldn't keep the old plates) and that was that. If someone used the car for criminal purposes (it was drivable, just leaking oil badly) there would have been no consequences for me.

There should be a paper trail of ownership with motor vehicles (http://www.dmv.org/title-transfers.php). The title has to be signed over and filed to document the exchange unless you are doing something "under the table." Not sure what state you live in where there isn't necessarily a paper trail of ownership. With a paper trail on gun ownership, a person could be prosecuted for selling/gifting to a felon (knowingly or not) if only we had the system to accomplish that.

 

[Draconis]

Personally I think spending too much energy trying to control guns in the US is a waste of time. The country, compared to some European countries, seems pretty much awash with them. Getting honest upstanding citizens to hand them in will not stop anyone wishing to use them with criminal intent (basically, a criminal will spend his time happily breaking laws, so breaking another one hardly matters). If only the US could have started off without this right to bear arms thing. But plainly it is too late for that.

And it's getting easier to print them using 3D printers now anyway. How do you go about controlling guns in a situation like this?

 

[bilby]

Personally I think spending too much energy trying to control guns in the US is a waste of time. The country, compared to some European countries, seems pretty much awash with them. Getting honest upstanding citizens to hand them in will not stop anyone wishing to use them with criminal intent (basically, a criminal will spend his time happily breaking laws, so breaking another one hardly matters). If only the US could have started off without this right to bear arms thing. But plainly it is too late for that.

And it's getting easier to print them using 3D printers now anyway. How do you go about controlling guns in a situation like this?

You can't make a gun by 3-D printing it; and as it is pretty easy to make one using basic machine tools, even if you could, it would be pointless to do so. 3-D printed parts can be used for some components, but not for the barrel or breech - unless you want to blow your hand off when you fire it.

The UK was awash with guns after WWII; huge numbers of pistols were owned by officers who were not prevented from keeping them, and plenty of other firearms went 'missing', souvenired by soldiers who wanted to keep them and who could plausibly claim they had been destroyed or lost in action.

The UK is NOT awash with guns today; by the time 25 years had passed since VE day, almost all of the guns had been surrendered and/or destroyed. Nonetheless, illegal guns are not particularly hard to come by in the UK. The reason they are rarely used by criminals is not that the criminals can't obtain them, but that being caught with an illegal gun results in harsh punishment. It's not worth the risk; most criminals, even in organised gangs, don't habitually carry a gun, because if one is found in your possession you go to prison.

Being caught carrying, or in possession of, a firearm in most parts of the US is either a non-event, or gets you a slap on the wrist. If the police in the UK find a .38 in your car at a traffic stop, you are almost certainly going to jail.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

The point is there was no procedure in the system that told the DMV who now owned the car. If they filed the paperwork, fine, but if they didn't the last registered owner is me. The last car I sold I doubt they bothered to file the paperwork as it wasn't going anywhere ever again. I returned the plates to DMV (a slight difference in the registration of the new car meant I couldn't keep the old plates) and that was that. If someone used the car for criminal purposes (it was drivable, just leaking oil badly) there would have been no consequences for me.

There should be a paper trail of ownership with motor vehicles (http://www.dmv.org/title-transfers.php). The title has to be signed over and filed to document the exchange unless you are doing something "under the table." Not sure what state you live in where there isn't necessarily a paper trail of ownership. With a paper trail on gun ownership, a person could be prosecuted for selling/gifting to a felon (knowingly or not) if only we had the system to accomplish that.

I'm talking about what we have with cars--I signed the title and gave it to them. I got a receipt and some cash. Since they were going to part it out, not drive it there wouldn't be any real need for them to file the paperwork. There was no obligation that I file it--my only obligation was to return the plates.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You can't make a gun by 3-D printing it; and as it is pretty easy to make one using basic machine tools, even if you could, it would be pointless to do so. 3-D printed parts can be used for some components, but not for the barrel or breech - unless you want to blow your hand off when you fire it.

The one design that has been published was fireable but risky and used a plastic barrel. 3D printing can produce metal components although not all that strong. I would be very surprised if a bolt action gun couldn't be printed today, it just needs a pretty fancy printer and wouldn't be competitive with traditional manufacturing.

I think the real threat is the ever declining price of CNC machines. There are already simpler ones at the home shop level, as the prices drop milling your own gun will become quite possible.

We already have the issue of 80% guns. Most of the parts of a gun are unrestricted. The gun is defined as the lower receiver--that's what you can't just buy off the shelf. It's just a piece of metal, you can't outlaw all pieces of metal so the law is based on similarity--80% like a receiver (I don't know how they measure) and it's considered a receiver.

Thus there are companies that sell kits containing all the parts for a gun but instead of a receiver you get a chunk of metal that resembles a receiver. It's not hard for a competent metalworker to turn this into a working receiver, assemble your gun, presto--you now have a gun without a background check. (This is legal assuming it's legal for you to possess the weapon you made but it does carry the catch that it is not legal to transfer such a weapon, period. Nobody else can ever legally own it, your estate must turn it in for destruction.)

The UK is NOT awash with guns today; by the time 25 years had passed since VE day, almost all of the guns had been surrendered and/or destroyed. Nonetheless, illegal guns are not particularly hard to come by in the UK. The reason they are rarely used by criminals is not that the criminals can't obtain them, but that being caught with an illegal gun results in harsh punishment. It's not worth the risk; most criminals, even in organised gangs, don't habitually carry a gun, because if one is found in your possession you go to prison.

Being caught carrying, or in possession of, a firearm in most parts of the US is either a non-event, or gets you a slap on the wrist. If the police in the UK find a .38 in your car at a traffic stop, you are almost certainly going to jail.

Part of why I favor gun licenses. Just like a cop has the automatic right to ask for your driver's license if you're driving they should have the right to ask for your gun license if you have a gun. No license = off to the pokey.

 

[DBT]

The point is there was no procedure in the system that told the DMV who now owned the car. If they filed the paperwork, fine, but if they didn't the last registered owner is me. The last car I sold I doubt they bothered to file the paperwork as it wasn't going anywhere ever again. I returned the plates to DMV (a slight difference in the registration of the new car meant I couldn't keep the old plates) and that was that. If someone used the car for criminal purposes (it was drivable, just leaking oil badly) there would have been no consequences for me.

There should be a paper trail of ownership with motor vehicles (http://www.dmv.org/title-transfers.php). The title has to be signed over and filed to document the exchange unless you are doing something "under the table." Not sure what state you live in where there isn't necessarily a paper trail of ownership. With a paper trail on gun ownership, a person could be prosecuted for selling/gifting to a felon (knowingly or not) if only we had the system to accomplish that.

That's right. We cannot buy and sell firearms without a permit to buy and a disposal form to sell. It is a huge disincentive to sell a firearm to an unlicensed buyer because the firearm is still registered in your name unless a disposal form is registered with the police. Who would trust the unlicensed buyer? I wouldn't. A accident, or a random car search that discovers your firearm in someone else's car means more trouble than its worth. Better to just fill out and submit the paperwork.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Personally I think spending too much energy trying to control guns in the US is a waste of time. The country, compared to some European countries, seems pretty much awash with them. Getting honest upstanding citizens to hand them in will not stop anyone wishing to use them with criminal intent (basically, a criminal will spend his time happily breaking laws, so breaking another one hardly matters). If only the US could have started off without this right to bear arms thing. But plainly it is too late for that.

And it's getting easier to print them using 3D printers now anyway. How do you go about controlling guns in a situation like this?

You can't make a gun by 3-D printing it; and as it is pretty easy to make one using basic machine tools, even if you could, it would be pointless to do so. 3-D printed parts can be used for some components, but not for the barrel or breech - unless you want to blow your hand off when you fire it.

The technology is constantly and steadily improving. They do have 3D metal printers now.

And even if you were still right about the state of technology right now right this instant you still would have to admit it won't always be that way. Unless you are somehow using Babbage's original computer to post to TalkFreethought. Of course, using the original analog lines first laid down by Alexander Bell.

 

[Shadowy Man]

Part of why I favor gun licenses. Just like a cop has the automatic right to ask for your driver's license if you're driving they should have the right to ask for your gun license if you have a gun. No license = off to the pokey.

That's assuming that the cop hasn't killed you before he got around to asking about your license.

 

[bilby]

You can't make a gun by 3-D printing it; and as it is pretty easy to make one using basic machine tools, even if you could, it would be pointless to do so. 3-D printed parts can be used for some components, but not for the barrel or breech - unless you want to blow your hand off when you fire it.

The technology is constantly and steadily improving. They do have 3D metal printers now.

And even if you were still right about the state of technology right now right this instant you still would have to admit it won't always be that way. Unless you are somehow using Babbage's original computer to post to TalkFreethought. Of course, using the original analog lines first laid down by Alexander Bell.

Sure, one day it might be possible to 3-D print a gun. Perhaps it will even be possible to do so cheaper than you can make one with a basic workshop setup. But even then, it won't be significantly easier to make a gun than it is right now.

Guns are not high technology. They are easy to make. So any technology that makes gunmaking easier is going to have very little impact on society.

The whole idea of 3-D printed guns is just media hype. People who know jack shit about how guns are made get all excited over it; but it is just not an issue - and it never will be.

It is a solution to a non-existent problem. Getting or making a gun isn't hard now, so it won't be made easy by any change in anything.