A Rumor I Heard Decades Ago and Regime Change

[Eldarion Lathria]

This is a rumor I heard decades ago and I must insist, it is totally unverified and a rumor only.

Back in the early seventies it is rumored that John Vorster, then Prime Minister of South Africa made a remark about 'the road east' and the possibility of South Africa seeking allies in the 'red bloc' in the Soviet Bloc and China. It is rumored that then US President Richard Nixon said, "If Vorster doesn't toe the line, he may not be around much longer." This remark reached Vorster. His response was to send Nixon a photo of Nixon on the beach at San Clemente, taken through the scope of a sniper rifle. There was no more talk about Vorster 'not being around much longer."

Would that be a response to 'regime change'"


Eldarion Lathria

 

[untermensche]

Who knows?

Nixon's threat may have happened. The US has taken out many leaders over the years. During the Nixon years the US took out the elected leader of Chile.

The counter threat is unlikely.

You can't just send the president a picture for them to see.

Everything going to the president is checked. It is the most protected office in the world.

 

[skepticalbip]

It seems they were both right. Vorster and his apartheid policies were kicked out and Nixon was kicked out even sooner. However, maybe not by the means either thought.

 

[Derec]

US took out the elected leader of Chile.

It was the Chilean military, not US, and it happened because he wanted to implement socialism over the heads of the legislature and judiciary which caused a constitutional crisis. Just because somebody is elected doesn't give them dictatorial powers.

 

[untermensche]

US took out the elected leader of Chile.

It was the Chilean military, not US, and it happened because he wanted to implement socialism over the heads of the legislature and judiciary which caused a constitutional crisis. Just because somebody is elected doesn't give them dictatorial powers.

You spew the US propaganda well. Almost as if you have no mind of your own.

...After a review of recordings of telephone conversations between Nixon and Henry Kissinger, Robert Dallek concluded that both of them used the CIA to actively destabilize the Allende government. In one particular conversation about the news of Allende's overthrow, Kissinger complains about the lack of recognition of the American role in the overthrow of a "communist" government, upon which Nixon remarked "Well, we didn't - as you know - our hand doesn't show on this one."...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Chilean_coup_d'%C3%A9tat

 

[Derec]

You spew the US propaganda well. Almost as if you have no mind of your own.

Funny you should say that because I was thinking the same of you.

...After a review of recordings of telephone conversations between Nixon and Henry Kissinger, Robert Dallek concluded that both of them used the CIA to actively destabilize the Allende government. In one particular conversation about the news of Allende's overthrow, Kissinger complains about the lack of recognition of the American role in the overthrow of a "communist" government, upon which Nixon remarked "Well, we didn't - as you know - our hand doesn't show on this one."...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Chilean_coup_d'%C3%A9tat

Big difference between US being peripherally involved and US taking Allende out as you claimed.
And your own source backs what I wrote.

Following an extended period of social and political unrest between the center-right dominated Congress of Chile and the elected socialist President Salvador Allende, as well as economic warfare ordered by US President Richard Nixon,[2] Allende was overthrown by the armed forces and national police.[3][4]

Note, he was overthrown by Chilean forces, not US forces and there was "political unrest" preceding the overthrow.

On 22 August 1973, with the support of the Christian Democrats and National Party members, the Chamber of Deputies passed 81–47 a resolution that asked "the President of the Republic, Ministers of State, and members of the Armed and Police Forces"[29] to "put an immediate end" to "breach[es of] the Constitution . . . with the goal of redirecting government activity toward the path of Law and ensuring the Constitutional order of our Nation, and the essential underpinnings of democratic co-existence among Chileans."

The resolution declared that the Allende Government sought ". . . to conquer absolute power with the obvious purpose of subjecting all citizens to the strictest political and economic control by the State . . . [with] the goal of establishing a totalitarian system", claiming it had made "violations of the Constitution . . . a permanent system of conduct." Essentially, most of the accusations were about the Socialist Government disregarding the separation of powers, and arrogating legislative and judicial prerogatives to the executive branch of government. Finally, the resolution condemned the creation and development of government-protected armed groups, which . . . are headed towards a confrontation with the armed forces. President Allende's efforts to re-organize the military and the police forces were characterised as notorious attempts to use the armed and police forces for partisan ends, destroy their institutional hierarchy, and politically infiltrate their ranks.

It can be argued that the resolution called upon the armed forces to overthrow Allende if he did not reform, as follows "...To present the President of the Republic, Ministers of State, and members of the Armed and Police Forces with the grave breakdown of the legal and constitutional order ... it is their duty to put an immediate end to all situations herein referred to that breach the Constitution and the laws of the land with the aim of redirecting government activity toward the path of Law "[30]

This was the legislature of Chile, not Congress of the United States by the way, just to avoid any confusion of where the primary impetus to overthrow Allende came from.
Just because he was a left-winger and just because Pinochet was a bastard too does not make Allende a good guy.

 

[Trausti]

Funny you should say that because I was thinking the same of you.

...After a review of recordings of telephone conversations between Nixon and Henry Kissinger, Robert Dallek concluded that both of them used the CIA to actively destabilize the Allende government. In one particular conversation about the news of Allende's overthrow, Kissinger complains about the lack of recognition of the American role in the overthrow of a "communist" government, upon which Nixon remarked "Well, we didn't - as you know - our hand doesn't show on this one."...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_Chilean_coup_d'%C3%A9tat

Big difference between US being peripherally involved and US taking Allende out as you claimed.
And your own source backs what I wrote.

Following an extended period of social and political unrest between the center-right dominated Congress of Chile and the elected socialist President Salvador Allende, as well as economic warfare ordered by US President Richard Nixon,[2] Allende was overthrown by the armed forces and national police.[3][4]

Note, he was overthrown by Chilean forces, not US forces and there was "political unrest" preceding the overthrow.

On 22 August 1973, with the support of the Christian Democrats and National Party members, the Chamber of Deputies passed 81–47 a resolution that asked "the President of the Republic, Ministers of State, and members of the Armed and Police Forces"[29] to "put an immediate end" to "breach[es of] the Constitution . . . with the goal of redirecting government activity toward the path of Law and ensuring the Constitutional order of our Nation, and the essential underpinnings of democratic co-existence among Chileans."

The resolution declared that the Allende Government sought ". . . to conquer absolute power with the obvious purpose of subjecting all citizens to the strictest political and economic control by the State . . . [with] the goal of establishing a totalitarian system", claiming it had made "violations of the Constitution . . . a permanent system of conduct." Essentially, most of the accusations were about the Socialist Government disregarding the separation of powers, and arrogating legislative and judicial prerogatives to the executive branch of government. Finally, the resolution condemned the creation and development of government-protected armed groups, which . . . are headed towards a confrontation with the armed forces. President Allende's efforts to re-organize the military and the police forces were characterised as notorious attempts to use the armed and police forces for partisan ends, destroy their institutional hierarchy, and politically infiltrate their ranks.

It can be argued that the resolution called upon the armed forces to overthrow Allende if he did not reform, as follows "...To present the President of the Republic, Ministers of State, and members of the Armed and Police Forces with the grave breakdown of the legal and constitutional order ... it is their duty to put an immediate end to all situations herein referred to that breach the Constitution and the laws of the land with the aim of redirecting government activity toward the path of Law "[30]

This was the legislature of Chile, not Congress of the United States by the way, just to avoid any confusion of where the primary impetus to overthrow Allende came from.
Just because he was a left-winger and just because Pinochet was a bastard too does not make Allende a good guy.

Whatever the US involvement, Chile is much better off today having been spared the subjugation of the Chavism of that time.

 

[Derec]

Whatever the US involvement, Chile is much better off today having been spared the subjugation of the Chavism of that time.

No kidding. Sound familiar?

In 1972, economics minister Pedro Vuskovic adopted monetary policies that increased the amount of circulating currency and devalued the escudo, which increased inflation to 140 percent in 1972 and engendered a black market economy.[18]

 

[untermensche]

Funny you should say that because I was thinking the same of you.

You were thinking I was a mindless fool spewing US propaganda?

You really are mindless.

Big difference between US being peripherally involved and US taking Allende out as you claimed.
And your own source backs what I wrote.

The US and it's insane notion that it has some right to attack leftist governments was the driving force.

The CIA already admitted to plotting the kidnapping of a top general that refused to comply with US demands that the Chilean Army stop the elected government from taking power.

Only the most naive sycophant to US aggression believes the US was not actively involved in causing an Army to overthrow the will of the people based on possible economic plans. Only a fool believes that by some magic the Army of some South American country shared the same insane economic paranoia as Washington.

 

[Derec]

You were thinking I was a mindless fool spewing US propaganda?

Anti-US propaganda.

You really are mindless.

You really are mindlessly literal.

Only the most naive sycophant to US aggression believes the US was not actively involved in causing an Army to overthrow the will of the people based on possible economic plans. Only a fool believes that by some magic the Army of some South American country shared the same insane economic paranoia as Washington.

Will of the people? Allende only got 36% of the vote and will of the people was also expressed in the legislature who opposed both his economic policies and his attacks on the separation of powers.

 

[untermensche]

Anti-US propaganda.

In other words the truth about US foreign policy.

Mostly threats and aggression. A mad out of control monster. We see the marvelous work it has done in the ME over the last decade.

Only the most naive sycophant to US aggression believes the US was not actively involved in causing an Army to overthrow the will of the people based on possible economic plans. Only a fool believes that by some magic the Army of some South American country shared the same insane economic paranoia as Washington.

Will of the people? Allende only got 36% of the vote and will of the people was also expressed in the legislature who opposed both his economic policies and his attacks on the separation of powers.

Yes the will of the people as expressed in the Chilean Constitution.

Allende didn't win by getting this 36%

He won by getting 78% in the Congressional confirmation.

The legislature you claim opposed him.

 

[Derec]

Yes the will of the people as expressed in the Chilean Constitution.

Constitution which Allende was violating, prompting the constitutional crisis.

He won by getting 78% in the Congressional confirmation.

The legislature you claim opposed him.

I don't claim it, it's a fact. And yes, majority of the legislature supported him before he showed his true colors and they withdrew support.

Face it. Whatever the US involvement, this wasn't anybody overthrowing the government of Chile, it was a conflict within the Chilean government.

 

[untermensche]

Constitution which Allende was violating, prompting the constitutional crisis.

Matters of whether an elected leader is violating the constitution have constitutional remedies.

Coups are more anti-constitutional than anything Allende planned.

Coups are what powers like the US use.

They are not what people who respect constitutions use.

He won by getting 78% in the Congressional confirmation.

The legislature you claim opposed him.

I don't claim it, it's a fact.

No it isn't.

The facts are Allende had widespread legislative support. That is how he was elected.

And no legislature can claim it is protecting the constitution by totally violating it.

Only an American sycophant can even think such a thing is possible.

Face it. Whatever the US involvement, this wasn't anybody overthrowing the government of Chile, it was a conflict within the Chilean government.

Bullshit!

Allende's opposition began in Washington and ended with the Chilean military.

 

[Derec]

Matters of whether an elected leader is violating the constitution have constitutional remedies.

The judiciary also opposed his actions. He merely ignored it.

Coups are more anti-constitutional than anything Allende planned.
Coups are what powers like the US use.

Or parts of domestic governments.

No it isn't.

Yes it is. Did you even read the whole wiki article you posted or just the bits about Nixon?

The facts are Allende had widespread legislative support. That is how he was elected.

He was elected by the legislature initially yes. But that's before he implemented any of his policies. After that he lost support quickly.

And no legislature can claim it is protecting the constitution by totally violating it.

Neither can the executive.

Only an American sycophant can even think such a thing is possible.

Again, this was a conflict within the Chilean government.

Allende's opposition began in Washington and ended with the Chilean military.

Just like everybody in Venezuela loves Maduro and everything bad that happens is a US plot to overthrow him?

 

[untermensche]

The judiciary also opposed his actions. He merely ignored it.

Coups are more anti-constitutional than anything Allende planned.
Coups are what powers like the US use.

Or parts of domestic governments.

No it isn't.

Yes it is. Did you even read the whole wiki article you posted or just the bits about Nixon?

The facts are Allende had widespread legislative support. That is how he was elected.

He was elected by the legislature initially yes. But that's before he implemented any of his policies. After that he lost support quickly.

And no legislature can claim it is protecting the constitution by totally violating it.

Neither can the executive.

Only an American sycophant can even think such a thing is possible.

Again, this was a conflict within the Chilean government.

Allende's opposition began in Washington and ended with the Chilean military.

Just like everybody in Venezuela loves Maduro and everything bad that happens is a US plot to overthrow him?

What part of evidence that Nixon and Kissinger discussed US efforts to destabilize Chile and Kissinger complained that US involvement was underestimated do you not understand?

I know we live in country where the government is allowed to act in secret.

But we don't have to behave like naive children because of it.

 

[Nexus]

G. Gordon Liddy did an interview with Howard Stern and he admitted the administration discussed assassinating American citizens to keep watergate covered up in the early stages. If they will do that you're hopelessly naive if you think they wouldn't kill foreign leaders acting against America interests.

 

[untermensche]

G. Gordon Liddy did an interview with Howard Stern and he admitted the administration discussed assassinating American citizens to keep watergate covered up in the early stages. If they will do that you're hopelessly naive if you think they wouldn't kill foreign leaders acting against America interests.

Allende was not acting against US interests.

He was working FOR the people of Chile, trying to alleviate their misery caused by US style capitalism.

 

[Bronzeage]

This is a rumor I heard decades ago and I must insist, it is totally unverified and a rumor only.

Back in the early seventies it is rumored that John Vorster, then Prime Minister of South Africa made a remark about 'the road east' and the possibility of South Africa seeking allies in the 'red bloc' in the Soviet Bloc and China. It is rumored that then US President Richard Nixon said, "If Vorster doesn't toe the line, he may not be around much longer." This remark reached Vorster. His response was to send Nixon a photo of Nixon on the beach at San Clemente, taken through the scope of a sniper rifle. There was no more talk about Vorster 'not being around much longer."

Would that be a response to 'regime change'"


Eldarion Lathria

This has always been the practical objection to targeting foreign leaders for assassination. Two can play that game. However, threatening a foreign leader with withdrawal of support, which could lead to him losing his office, is not the same as a threat of assassination.

I don't buy the sniper's photo story. If it were true, Vorster would have discovered that all his political rivals, within and without his own party, suddenly seemed to have unlimited resources and money.

 

[Bronzeage]

G. Gordon Liddy did an interview with Howard Stern and he admitted the administration discussed assassinating American citizens to keep watergate covered up in the early stages. If they will do that you're hopelessly naive if you think they wouldn't kill foreign leaders acting against America interests.

Gordon Liddy said a lot of stuff. He once found himself in a waiting room with John Dean and wondered if this had been arranged in the hopes he would kill Dean. Liddy also offered to stand on a street corner and wait for a hit man, if he were put on that list.

 

[Nexus]

Gordon Liddy said a lot of stuff.

Are you saying its not true? His word has more weight than anyone's opinion on this message board.