A spectre is haunting Europe ...

[dismal]

Germany running trade surpluses means that all the euros are flowing into germany leaving fewer euros for the rest of the eurozone to run their own economies on. Eventually that will lead to a problem. And in Greece that problem is happening now and if it continues other countries will start having the same problems.

This is what happens when you don't have your own currency.

Ah, so you embrace Mercantilism as an economic policy.

That plus bouts of irresponsible government spending followed by rampant money printing to inflate away the resulting debt.

 

[Horatio Parker]

Nice non-reply you wrote there.

Nice dodging.

If Germany is to maintain the union with Greece and as a trading partner, then Greeces problems are also Germanys problems. If not, then Greece can go down the tubes, no?

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Yes, but you are conflating trade deficits with government deficits. So even "Greeces (sic) problems are also Germanys (sic) problems" doesn't change that you are comparing two very dissimilar issues.

 

[Horatio Parker]

Yes, but you are conflating trade deficits with government deficits. So even "Greeces (sic) problems are also Germanys (sic) problems" doesn't change that you are comparing two very dissimilar issues.

Without an economy, how will Greece buy German goods? If Greek banks collapse, will that not impact Greeces ability to trade with Germany and help maintain Germany's trade surplus?

 

[ksen]

Germany running trade surpluses means that all the euros are flowing into germany leaving fewer euros for the rest of the eurozone to run their own economies on. Eventually that will lead to a problem. And in Greece that problem is happening now and if it continues other countries will start having the same problems.

This is what happens when you don't have your own currency.

Ah, so you embrace Mercantilism as an economic policy.

I do?

 

[ksen]

http://www.euractiv.com/sections/euro-finance/brussels-renews-criticism-german-trade-surplus-300733

German officials rebuffed those claims, arguing that the country's high trade surplus was a natural byproduct of the strong competitiveness of German businesses.

That may be changing as the German government now seems to be more open-minded. For the first time, an internal paper from the economics ministry acknowledges that excessive and sustained trade imbalances are harmful for the stability of the eurozone, the Süddeutsche Zeitung reported on Wednesday. As a result, it is right for the Commission to put such imbalances under the microscope, the document said.

 

[dismal]

Yes, but you are conflating trade deficits with government deficits. So even "Greeces (sic) problems are also Germanys (sic) problems" doesn't change that you are comparing two very dissimilar issues.

Without an economy, how will Greece buy German goods? If Greek banks collapse, will that not impact Greeces ability to trade with Germany and help maintain Germany's trade surplus?

Approximately 0.43% of Germany's exports go to Greece. My guess is there are better uses of their 240 billion euros than propping up Greece if they want to encourage exports.

http://atlas.media.mit.edu/explore/tree_map/hs/export/deu/show/all/2012/

 

[Jayjay]

Greece could print all the Drakhmas they want and it wouldn't reduce the existing debt that is in Euros. The scenario where Greece quits the Euro zone is one where it unilaterally defaults the debt and as consequence can no longer be a member.

 

[Horatio Parker]

Without an economy, how will Greece buy German goods? If Greek banks collapse, will that not impact Greeces ability to trade with Germany and help maintain Germany's trade surplus?

Approximately 0.43% of Germany's exports go to Greece. My guess is there are better uses of their 240 billion euros than propping up Greece if they want to encourage exports.

http://atlas.media.mit.edu/explore/tree_map/hs/export/deu/show/all/2012/

Glad to hear the EU is such great shape that member nations are expendable.

Are you hoping to pick up the Parthenon for a song?

 

[Derec]

Michael Fuchs, deputy faction leader of C?U, spoke about Greece on today's BBC Newshour (starting at the 30 minute mark).
Can't say he is not right.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Horatio, what have you got so strongly against personal responsibility that it makes you accuse people of wanting to destroy Greece?

 

[Horatio Parker]

Horatio, what have you got so strongly against personal responsibility that it makes you accuse people of wanting to destroy Greece?

What have you got so strongly against society that it makes you accuse people of wanting to destroy personal responsibility?

 

[laughing dog]

Ah, so you embrace Mercantilism as an economic policy.

I do?

Not under the ordinary understanding of the term  Mercantilism.

 

[Horatio Parker]

Here's an interesting comment. There's one person out there who thinks this situation is resolvable:

Regarding the need to deficit spend for recovery:
Varoufakis also sugested solution to such a problem. State will issue small bonds in lieu of future tax obligation as payments.
That is such an excellent idea since it hides the fact that this is what money really is, but not call it drachma since that would give away the game. This would be parallel currency to euro.

This is what Slovenia did also, they are in EZ too.
Slovenia payed some part of wage to state employees with small amount state bonds which were accepted only by banks in lieu of credit payments. Banks erased credit principal with these bonds just as with real money, and it worked. It was temporary but it worked.

Greeks can also set up state owned developement banks just as FDR did using Tresuries as capital requeirments and then went on just as any other bank.
With digital money that is much easier done now then in FDR’s time.

January 26, 2015 at 6:21 pm
In Slovenia it was temporary while Varoufakis suggested as permanent measure, i mean it has to be a permanent measure since that would lower tax receipt in euro, by some margin.
But combining it with implementing taxes on dividend and interest income, raising tax on high incomes, returning property tax on foreign owned real estate and so on, there is much to do in reforming tax code to resemble a normal state tax code that would bring state receipts buck up with wich to fund projects.
Forming developement banks that could refinance debts with much lower interest is a big deal. Using state bond as capital requierment for developement banks is opening financing problem wide open. Then those banks can use ELA for real euro needs while mostly operating in digital sfere.

There is so much history that describes run around game to get over this problem of state finances for recovery projects, it only needs willing and knowledgable Ministers and it is a no problem.

 

[dismal]

Approximately 0.43% of Germany's exports go to Greece. My guess is there are better uses of their 240 billion euros than propping up Greece if they want to encourage exports.

http://atlas.media.mit.edu/explore/tree_map/hs/export/deu/show/all/2012/

Glad to hear the EU is such great shape that member nations are expendable.

Are you hoping to pick up the Parthenon for a song?

Nobody is talking about "expending" Greece. They can still be a country.

As far as the EU goes, Greece isn't adding it's subtracting. It's like the guy in the group who is always in the bathroom when the check cones.

 

[Axulus]

If Greece gets special treatment, then why not the Italians and the Spaniards?

How can the Spanish or Italian prime minister tell voters that Greece has a lower interest burden than we have, but we still need to give them debt forgiveness?

http://marginalrevolution.com/margi...d-question-about-greece-and-the-eurozone.html

How indeed?

- - - Updated - - -

Yes, let's let people die because money is more important.

"For want of the price of tea and a slice, the old man died." Pink Floyd - Us and Them

Stop the hyperbole, we aren't talking about deaths but things like smaller pensions and higher retirement age and fewer government jobs.

You are using the same kind of inane rhetoric as the republicans who talk about death panels.

 

[Axulus]

Austerity in Greece has been inhumane and immoral. Doesn't matter whether it was a left wing party elected or a right wing party. Almost none liked the austerity imposed on them. (bolded for emphasis)

Yes, people do impose the condition that they must be paid for goods and services. No one likes to have to pay for things. It'd be great if people offered things for free rather than imposing a requirement for payment (or in the case of lending, a requirement to be repaid).

 

[Horatio Parker]

Glad to hear the EU is such great shape that member nations are expendable.

Are you hoping to pick up the Parthenon for a song?

Nobody is talking about "expending" Greece. They can still be a country.

As far as the EU goes, Greece isn't adding it's subtracting. It's like the guy in the group who is always in the bathroom when the check cones.

You were the one suggesting Germany doesn't need the trade. If trade involving Greece in the context of the EU is a matter of no importance how different is that from expendability?

Are Greece's debtors, by virtue of their superior personal responsibility and the sanctity of contract, entitled to own Greece? Or whatever part necessary to discharge the debt? If so, "they can still be a country" is so much bullshit.

And, if this is the aim of the debtors, why shouldn't Greece spit in their eye? Is an addict obligated to the pusher who hooked him?

 

[untermensche]

Austerity in Greece has been inhumane and immoral. Doesn't matter whether it was a left wing party elected or a right wing party. Almost none liked the austerity imposed on them. (bolded for emphasis)

Yes, people do impose the condition that they must be paid for goods and services. No one likes to have to pay for things. It'd be great if people offered things for free rather than imposing a requirement for payment (or in the case of lending, a requirement to be repaid).

The austerity measures made it less likely people will be paid back.

Degrade an economy and you make it less likely people will be paid back.

Some Keynesian spending in hard times makes it more likely people will be paid back.

 

[Axulus]

Yes, people do impose the condition that they must be paid for goods and services. No one likes to have to pay for things. It'd be great if people offered things for free rather than imposing a requirement for payment (or in the case of lending, a requirement to be repaid).

The austerity measures made it less likely people will be paid back.

Degrade an economy and you make it less likely people will be paid back.

Some Keynesian spending in hard times makes it more likely people will be paid back.

This is like the myth that decreasing taxes increases revenue (supply side fantasy). No, lending one additional dollar so that they can spend more does not make it more likely that you'll get that dollar plus everything else you've loaned back.