A spectre is haunting Europe ...

[Derec]

Surprised there isn't a thread on this already.
Greece anti-bailout leader Tsipras made prime minister
The left-wing radical Syriza Party has won the Greek election and their leader made prime minister. To be sure, only a bit more than a third of Greeks voted for Syriza, but due to a cockamanie provision of the Greek election law the largest party receives a 50 seat (1/6 of the entire 300 seat parliament!) bonus which put Syriza at 148 seats.

Background: Greece found itself in dire economic straits. EU agreed to bail them out but linked it to spending reforms.
In any case many Greeks disliked the imposed austerity which led to rise of both left wing and right wing radical parties and now the left wing incarnation is going to have power. They demand a radical forgiveness of debts and want to return to the days of profligate spending. They do not have majority in the parliament so they will have to work with conservative (but also anti_EU) Independent Greeks.

In the end there is a danger of "Grexit" (Greek exit from the Euro) which could be very interesting indeed.

 

[dismal]

Surprised there isn't a thread on this already.

They are probably skipping straight to the point where Greece is added to the list of places where socialism was never *really* tried.

 

[Perspicuo]

A spectre is a ghost. To be afraid of shadows on the wall is childish.

 

[Derec]

A spectre is a ghost. To be afraid of shadows on the wall is childish.

You really do not know your history, do you?

 

[ZiprHead]

Austerity in Greece has been inhumane and immoral. Doesn't matter whether it was a left wing party elected or a right wing party. Almost none liked the austerity imposed on them. (bolded for emphasis)

 

[Derec]

Austerity in Greece has been inhumane and immoral.

It was a much needed reduction from irresponsible levels of spending that got them into trouble in the first place.
Case in point retirement age. It was 58 while in Germany it is 67. Why should Greeks get to retire earlier than Germans, and why should Germans pay for it?

Almost none liked the austerity imposed on them. (bolded for emphasis)

Imposed by the people bailing them out. If you get into financial trouble and ask your parents for a bailout, you may not like them telling you to cut your spending but they are perfectly right to tell you to trim your budget (especially if you tend to spend more than them of certain things!)

 

[Harry Bosch]

Austerity in Greece has been inhumane and immoral. Doesn't matter whether it was a left wing party elected or a right wing party. Almost none liked the austerity imposed on them. (bolded for emphasis)

Its more that if Greece wants loans, that they have to make their creditors feel comfortable. If the Greeks refuse to honor old debts, not very likely that their new investors will trust them for new debt.

 

[ZiprHead]

I agree that's Greece's profligate spending was a huge problem and should have been avoided by making people pay the taxes they were supposed to. Yes, raise the retirement age, but at least help people be fed properly and cared for medically.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/tough-austerity-measures-in-greece-leave-nearly-a-million-people-with-no-access-to-healthcare-leading-to-soaring-infant-mortality-hiv-infection-and-suicide-9142274.html

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

If they thought austerity was bad, just wait until they have no lenders for their debt.

 

[maxparrish]

Austerity in Greece has been inhumane and immoral. Doesn't matter whether it was a left wing party elected or a right wing party. Almost none liked the austerity imposed on them. (bolded for emphasis)

Denial, a classic symptom of nations in need of a 12-step program. Here is my solution for the Greeks, attend your first DBA meeting:

Dead Beats Anonymous offers hope for a national people's whose obsession with wallowing in debt causes problems and suffering, not only in their lives but the lives of other nations peoples. Most nations incur debt at various points in their lives, in war or national emergencies, but for some lazy ass debtors it becomes an addictive and unmanageable part of their national life. Debting is more than just the sensationalized gluttonous free lunch spending, it can cripple and ruin your country's life.

For many national people's it is a false crutch that feeds fantasy (retirement at 58?) and magnifies obsession (featherbedding my relations in government jobs). Many debtors are mega billions of dollars in debt to other countries, banks, or international loan providers. These Compulsive national spenders often engage in compulsive handouts of 'free' social benefits and encourage subsequent loafing, or they alternate between overspending and deprivation. Eventually, a country with a compulsive spending and debting problem finds that their national life has become unmanageable.

In D.B.A., our purpose is threefold: to stop incurring debt, to share our experience with those seeking help, and to reach out to other big spender-debtor nations.

*Dead Beat Anonymous is a non-profit organization based on the Twelve-Step principles of Alcoholics Anonymous. Call for a meeting near you.

 

[ZiprHead]

Yes, let's let people die because money is more important.

"For want of the price of tea and a slice, the old man died." Pink Floyd - Us and Them

 

[dismal]

Yes, let's let people die because money is more important.

"For want of the price of tea and a slice, the old man died." Pink Floyd - Us and Them

The issue here is not so much not spending money as not having money to spend.

The recklessly spending other people's money bit only works for so long.

 

[Horatio Parker]

It's less of a spectre than it was. A year or so ago, the fear was that if Greece exited the Euro, Spain, Portugal and Italy might follow. That's no longer a concern. OTOH, if the Germans agree to debt relief for Greece, those countries will want some too.

So if Greece leaves the EU, they can use a devalued currency. That will mean more pain, but it will also enable their economy to grow again. If they stay in the EU, they'll get more of the status quo.

But default is not new there. There was a negotiated default in 2012.

 

[arkirk]

Austerity in Greece has been inhumane and immoral. Doesn't matter whether it was a left wing party elected or a right wing party. Almost none liked the austerity imposed on them. (bolded for emphasis)

Denial, a classic symptom of nations in need of a 12-step program. Here is my solution for the Greek people, attend your first DBA meeting:

Dead Beats Anonymous offers hope for national people's whose obsession with wallowing in debt causes problems and suffering no only in their lives but the lives of other nations. Most nations incur debt at various points in their lives, in war or national emergencies, but for some lazy asses debt becomes an addictive and unmanageable part of their national life. Debting is more than just sensationalized gluttonous free lunch shopping, it can cripple and ruin someone’s country. Running up national debt is like alcohol for the alcoholic, food for the compulsive eater, and gambling for the compulsive gambler.

For many national people's it is a false crutch that feeds fantasy (retirement at 58?) and magnifies obsession (featherbedding my relations in government jobs). Many debtors are thousands of dollars in debt to other countries, banks, or international loan providers. These Compulsive national debtors often engage in compulsive 'free' social benefits and subsequent loafing, or alternate between overspending and deprivation. Eventually, a country with a compulsive debting problem finds that life has become unmanageable.

In D.B.A., our purpose is threefold: to stop incurring debt, to share our experience with those seeking help, and to reach out to other debtor nations. Dead Beat Anonymous is a non-profit organization based on the Twelve-Step principles of Alcoholics Anonymous.

It is obvious that if a country is experiencing inhumane austerity measures for a long time and the debt does not go away, something is wrong...like the payday lenders maybe... Nobody needs a 12 step program if it constipates the economy. Laxatives may be the only solution.

 

[Trausti]

Greece should leave the EuroZone; it didn't belong there in the first place. Tying Greece to the economies of Northern Europe was a mismatch, a highly risky gamble, and it ought to be encouraged to go.

 

[maxparrish]

Yes, let's let people die because money is more important.

"For want of the price of tea and a slice, the old man died." Pink Floyd - Us and Them

You mean let others suffer because money for greeks is more important?

 

[maxparrish]

It's less of a spectre than it was. A year or so ago, the fear was that if Greece exited the Euro, Spain, Portugal and Italy might follow. That's no longer a concern. OTOH, if the Germans agree to debt relief for Greece, those countries will want some too.

So if Greece leaves the EU, they can use a devalued currency. That will mean more pain, but it will also enable their economy to grow again. If they stay in the EU, they'll get more of the status quo.

But default is not new there. There was in negotiated default in 2012.

Actually I agree. The solution for Greece is not easy, but for them it is preferable to paying off their debts. Default. Argentina (and a few others) have shown that after a few years of difficulty, the international loan sources are more than happy to start lending again - and then the borrower defaults again. The financiers never learn.

However, the problem is that a new government would want to go back to its old ways immediately, rather than use the opportunity to transform the Greek economy.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Yes, let's let people die because money is more important. "For want of the price of tea and a slice, the old man died." Pink Floyd - Us and Them

Would you personally lend someone money who had a history of stiffing its creditors?

 

[Tom Sawyer]

There's the old adage that beggers can't be choosers. The Greeks had a history of demonstrating that they have no idea how to manage their finances and then went and asked others to give them a lot of money. It would have been inane to do that without a harsh set of conditions, since they clearly couldn't be trusted to set decent monetary policy themselves.

If they'd started dealing with their financial problems themselves twenty years ago, they could have spread out the pain over a long period instead of having the consequences of their poor decisions dumped on them all at once. If they do exit the Euro and all starve to death, the EU can have some nice seaside property opening up in a few years, so that's a plus.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Yes, let's let people die because money is more important. "For want of the price of tea and a slice, the old man died." Pink Floyd - Us and Them

Would you personally lend someone money who had a history of stiffing its creditors?

If he says no, that means he thinks he personally should let people die because money is more important to him.

If someone shops for all their groceries using credit cards, and they reach the limit, is the credit card company obliged to raise the limit lest the shopper starve?

My earlier point remains unanswered by anyone. Where will the money come from once the lenders all disappear?