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About the US's support of Israel

excreationist

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Probably in a simulation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxE_UUrbMNA
With so much that must be done at home in the United States, why does America send so much of its resources to Israel? It’s a fair question, but according to U.S. Gen Chuck Wald, America doesn’t spend enough on Israel.

This is from a slick right-wing channel. This video got a lot of downvotes but I thought it seemed pretty reasonable.
 
It's reasonable if.

If the economics benefits for America via selling arms is the main consideration.

As to the security benefits, it could be described as partly circular thinking. Part of the reason there is such a concerning security issue for the USA is because of its historical support for Israel, and other interventions in the region.

But for those making and selling weapons (and those who make a living directly and indirectly from that) it's a neat scenario in some ways.

This is all also partly true for other countries, including mine.
 
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It's reasonable if.

If the economics benefits for America via selling arms is the main consideration.

There's another factor here--Israel provides a low-grade war to actually test out weapons in. Helping them out in exchange for data on what happens on the battlefield is a good deal for us.

As to the security benefits, it could be described as partly circular thinking. Part of the reason there is such a concerning security issue for the USA is because of its historical support for Israel, and other interventions in the region.

No. The Muslims hate us for standing in way of their world conquest. Furthermore, they hate us for being more attractive to their people than hardline religion. Israel is a convenient excuse, not the reason.
 
No. The Muslims hate us for standing in way of their world conquest. Furthermore, they hate us for being more attractive to their people than hardline religion. Israel is a convenient excuse, not the reason.

Excerpts from the horse's mouth:

1. We hate you, first and foremost, because you are disbelievers; you reject the oneness of Allah – whether you realize it or not – by making partners for Him in worship, you blaspheme against Him, claiming that He has a son, you fabricate lies against His prophets and messengers, and you indulge in all manner of devilish practices. It is for this reason that we were commanded to openly declare our hatred for you and our enmity towards you.

2. We hate you because your secular, liberal societies permit the very things that Allah has prohibited while banning many of the things He has permitted, a matter that doesn’t concern you because you separate between religion and state, thereby granting supreme authority to your whims and desires via the legislators you vote into power. In doing so, you desire to rob Allah of His right to be obeyed and you wish to usurp that right for yourselves.

3. In the case of the atheist fringe, we hate you and wage war against you because you disbelieve in the existence of your Lord and Creator. You witness the extraordinarily complex makeup of created beings, and the astonishing and inexplicably precise physical laws that govern the entire universe, but insist that they all came about through randomness and that one should be faulted, mocked, and ostracized for recognizing that the astonishing signs we witness day after day are the creation of the Wise, All-Knowing Creator and not the result of accidental occurrence.

4. We hate you for your crimes against Islam and wage war against you to punish you for your transgressions against our religion. As long as your subjects continue to mock our faith, insult the prophets of Allah – including Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Muhammad – burn the Quran, and openly vilify the laws of the Shari’ah, we will continue to retaliate, not with slogans and placards, but with bullets and knives.

5. We hate you for your crimes against the Muslims; your drones and fghter jets bomb, kill, and maim our people around the world, and your puppets in the usurped lands of the Muslims oppress, torture, and wage war against anyone who calls to the truth. As such, we fght you to stop you from killing our men, women, and children, to liberate those of them whom you imprison and torture, and to take revenge for the countless Muslims who’ve sufered as a result of your deeds.

6. We hate you for invading our lands and fight you to repel you and drive you out. As long as there is an inch of territory left for us to reclaim, jihad will continue to be a personal obligation on every single Muslim.

What’s important to understand here is that although some might argue that your foreign policies are the extent of what drives our hatred, this particular reason for hating you is secondary, hence the reason we addressed it at the end of the above list. The fact is, even if you were to stop bombing us, imprisoning us, torturing us, vilifying us, and usurping our lands, we would continue to hate you because our primary reason for hating you will not cease to exist until you embrace Islam. Even if you were to pay jizyah and live under the authority of Islam in humiliation, we would continue to hate you. No doubt, we would stop fighting you then as we would stop fighting any disbelievers who enter into a covenant with us, but we would not stop hating you.
 
This seems to be an "Islamic State" publication.

About (1), they are taking Muslim beliefs to their logical conclusion about Christian beliefs. Muslims believe that Jesus Christ was a prophet, but a predecessor of Mohammed, and 100% human with 100% human parentage. They also believe that Allah is not a trinity.

About (3), they use the Argument from Design, complete with the presumption that the designer must be Allah.
 
This seems to be an "Islamic State" publication.

About (1), they are taking Muslim beliefs to their logical conclusion about Christian beliefs. Muslims believe that Jesus Christ was a prophet, but a predecessor of Mohammed, and 100% human with 100% human parentage. They also believe that Allah is not a trinity.

About (3), they use the Argument from Design, complete with the presumption that the designer must be Allah.

Looks to me like yet another religious "Our superstitions take precedence over any facts and over anyone else's superstitions, and we will kill and die to enforce our superstitions!"
Or, in Trumpeze "We have THE BEST superstitions!"
 
....No. The Muslims hate us for standing in way of their world conquest. Furthermore, they hate us for being more attractive to their people than hardline religion. Israel is a convenient excuse, not the reason.

Insanity. Total insanity.

Islam is not one thing just like Judaism is not one thing.

Fundamentalism rises when people are attacked.

Islamic fundamentalism is also being fueled by Saudi Arabia.

A very good friend of the US.

It is also being fueled by Iran.

A nation turned from democracy to fundamentalism by US meddling.
 
Loren Pechtel said:
No. The Muslims hate us for standing in way of their world conquest. Furthermore, they hate us for being more attractive to their people than hardline religion. Israel is a convenient excuse, not the reason.
That's an incredibly naive and self-serving view of the geopolitics in the region.

The majority of the Muslim world sees things from the perspective of post-colonial nationalism, not ideas of world conquest. This isn't the 10th century.
 
The majority of the Muslim world sees things from the perspective of post-colonial nationalism, not ideas of world conquest. This isn't the 10th century.

Therefore Yazidis and Shiites must be exterminated?:confused:
 
The majority of the Muslim world sees things from the perspective of post-colonial nationalism, not ideas of world conquest. This isn't the 10th century.

Therefore Yazidis and Shiites must be exterminated?:confused:

Is this supposed to have some relevance? It seems you are alluding to ISIS, but how that is supposed to be a response to what I'm saying is not clear to me.
 
The majority of the Muslim world sees things from the perspective of post-colonial nationalism, not ideas of world conquest. This isn't the 10th century.

Therefore Yazidis and Shiites must be exterminated?:confused:

Is this supposed to have some relevance? It seems you are alluding to ISIS, but how that is supposed to be a response to what I'm saying is not clear to me.

I don't think the majority of the Muslim world believes that Yazidis and Shiites must be exterminated, but if Tammuz has evidence of widespread support for the idea among Muslims worldwide, I'd like to see it.
 
This seems to be an "Islamic State" publication.

Very well might be--note that he said it was from the horses' mouth. Thus he clearly was quoting some Islamist source.

Note that Israel doesn't even appear in the list. It's all about Islam should be on top.
 
....No. The Muslims hate us for standing in way of their world conquest. Furthermore, they hate us for being more attractive to their people than hardline religion. Israel is a convenient excuse, not the reason.

Insanity. Total insanity.

Islam is not one thing just like Judaism is not one thing.

Fundamentalism rises when people are attacked.

Islamic fundamentalism is also being fueled by Saudi Arabia.

A very good friend of the US.

It is also being fueled by Iran.

A nation turned from democracy to fundamentalism by US meddling.

Islam has been attacking for most of it's existence.

And the explosion of problems from Islam is due to oil, not to oppression. While the violence is centered in a conflict area they have caused big problems across much of Africa, areas that have never been conflict zones.

- - - Updated - - -

Loren Pechtel said:
No. The Muslims hate us for standing in way of their world conquest. Furthermore, they hate us for being more attractive to their people than hardline religion. Israel is a convenient excuse, not the reason.
That's an incredibly naive and self-serving view of the geopolitics in the region.

The majority of the Muslim world sees things from the perspective of post-colonial nationalism, not ideas of world conquest. This isn't the 10th century.

The problem with the Islamists extends far beyond the conflict areas. Basically every area with a substantial Muslim population but whose government isn't Muslim is facing terrorism.
 
Islam has been attacking for most of it's existence.

World history is totally divided between the pre-industrial age and the post-industrial age. Then again by the nuclear age.

Power massively shifts after the Industrial age and Muslim power is so inferior the West occupies and controls Muslim lands. The past is over.

And the story since has been massive encroachment of Muslim lands by the West.

Control has been achieved by installing dictators, like the Saudi dictatorship and the Kuwaiti dictatorship, and the Shah in Iran and Hussein in Iraq.

Implanting Israel has also been a method to control the Muslims and justify violence against them.

The attack of Iraq was another attempt to establish control.

It was masterminded and run by sociopaths and psychopaths and it failed miserably. ISIS arose from the ruins of a decade long violent occupation and control of Iraqi oil slipped from US hands.

War spilled over into Syria and nobody knows who to support.

The US is a major world menace and criminal state that has caused unbelievable harm and damage in the region.
 
World history is totally divided between the pre-industrial age and the post-industrial age. Then again by the nuclear age.

First we had sedentary versus nomadic with the near complete extinction of all nomads.
Next industrialized countries which destroy agricultural ones.
In US terms : first the nomadic native americans were wiped out, next industrialized north attacked the pre industrial south.
Nuclear age however doesnt create that division at all. Cant see why nuclear France is any different from non nuclear Australia.

Muslim domination and arab domination in particular typically centralizes on pre industrial
agricultural countries. From the 22 arab league states, none can be considered as industrialized and the majority can be clasified under third world countries. Remove oil income, and near all countries fall under third world.

And the story since has been massive encroachment of Muslim lands by the West.

Lets make it a bit more nuanced. All pre industrial cultures loose land to the industrialized powers. Again, not much land in the US or Canada belongs to the natives I believe.

Control has been achieved by installing dictators, like the Saudi dictatorship and the Kuwaiti dictatorship, and the Shah in Iran and Hussein in Iraq.

Saddam Hussein and Syrian Iraqi Baath party philosophy has nothing to do with control from the west. Michel Aflag might be christian but mostly pan arabic and honestly believing in a better arabic society. A secular btw.

You can say West meddled in Iran against Mossadegh. One of the last spasms of the Brittish empire. Persia is a bit complicated to discuss in this thread.

Implanting Israel has also been a method to control the Muslims and justify violence against them.

I dont believe that this statement is correct.
Although divide et impera was the backbone of Brittish colonialism, the creation of a Jewish state and the dismanteling of the Turkish territories, served totally different interests.

The attack of Iraq was another attempt to establish control.

Mostly correct. Iraq, as a regional power, needed to be destroyed. It didnt fit into the strategy of the west and US needed to safeguard at all cost the supply of oil from the middle east.
Morally reprehensible even if you take into account the world wide havoc and destruction which would have followed a collapse of the oil supply.
From the point of view of the US : it was the only thing they could do to safeguard their de facto position as world dominant power.
For the millions of Iraqis a living hell.

It was masterminded and run by sociopaths and psychopaths and it failed miserably.

Why do you think it failed ? Iraq as a regional power was destroyed and is now in hand of corrupt US inclined politicians.
I doubt it was masterminded by sociopaths. It was a brilliant and cheap move to preserve american intrests.

ISIS arose from the ruins of a decade long violent occupation

Islamic fundamentalism is ingrained in the middle east. They are still fighting a century old religious war. They dont need the west to start it or to fight towards their ultimate goal : genocide and total destruction of all non sunni. That is the essence of all religious wars. Exactly what is happening at this very moment in Yemen btw.
Isis, or similar, will always fill in a power vacuum in any islamic country. Also in Saudi when it will collapse.

and control of Iraqi oil slipped from US hands.

Rubbish
Its still firmly in « good » hands and besides its irrelevant since the west is controlling very firmly all routes for export of that oil.
Having oil is one thing, getting it on the market is a different issue. The US firmly controls all sea-lanes and Iraq is landlocked with only escape route : SYRIA. See a pattern here ?
Saddam experienced this first hand during iraq/Iran and later after the Koweit debacle.
He had to export oil through tankers into Turkey. Transporting crude by truck is desperate. Specially if you have to drive through a Kurdish infested mountain.

War spilled over into Syria and nobody knows who to support.

Yeah well, if we had common sense we would immediately support Bashar regime. A secular regime, ready to sit on the table and start negotiating. So maybe its time to stop all support to opposition and force on Bashar guarantees for kurds, a non attacking plan towards Israel and a general amnesty. (except for Isis thugs)
Oh but hey : we have Turkey there and thats the last thing they want.


The US is a major world menace and criminal state that has caused unbelievable harm and damage in the region.

Yeah yeah yeah, tout le monde il est beau tout le monde il est gentil and US is satan reincarnated.

The US is nowadays the dominant world empire without any opposition since the collapse of the USSR. The rôle of the US executives is to maintain this situation and, if possible, to consolidate further. All wealth in the US, all stability, all prosperity depends on this.
Our hunger for oil, wealth and luxury wired to a tribal mind, drives the necessity to maintain the status quo at all cost.
In French no omelette without breaking eggs.
Regrettable, but thats what the majority of western population wants.
And since we live in a democracy with people more interested in the hairy ass of Kim Kardashian than in global geopolitics ……..
 
Nuclear age however doesnt create that division at all. Cant see why nuclear France is any different from non nuclear Australia.

It complete;y changes the power dynamic.

Lowly North Korea and Pakistan have to be taken a lot more seriously than Iraq or Sweden.

Saddam Hussein and Syrian Iraqi Baath party philosophy has nothing to do with control from the west.

Except of course the US helped Hussein gain power and supported him once in power. When he gassed the Kurds with US helicopters and chemicals he was rewarded by the Reagan administration. Iraq was taken off the State Departments terrorist nation list. After the first Gulf War Shiites rose up and began a takeover. The US allowed Hussein to crush it from the air even though the US completely controlled the skies.

It is not true Hussein has nothing to do with the US.

Although divide et impera was the backbone of Brittish colonialism, the creation of a Jewish state and the dismanteling of the Turkish territories, served totally different interests.

What the fuck?

This is just babbling something without saying anything.

Why do you think it failed ?

Were you alive?

They said it would be quick and easy. They said there would not be a great disruption of lives for long in Iraq. They said the oil would pay for it. It cost the US taxpayer trillions.

It was a feeding frenzy of the military industrial complex. A huge base built from scratch with many examples of horribly shoddy construction methods and then abandoned.

It was the sickest example of war profiteering in history.

And it created sectarian violence that had not existed in Iraq for centuries. After US forces began segregating Iraqis by religion.

And it empowered ISIS. It gave ISIS top ranking Iraqi military commanders. It gave ISIS weapons and cash. It gave ISIS recruits from all over the ME that saw the attack as criminal and an attack on Islam.

And it empowered fundamentalists who are always empowered when people are terrorized.

Islamic fundamentalism is ingrained in the middle east.

Much more so due to the British and US support of the Saudi dictatorship. And because of US and British meddling in Iran.

Notice a pattern?

Who attacked Iraq? The US and the British basically.

The US is nowadays the dominant world empire without any opposition since the collapse of the USSR. The rôle of the US executives is to maintain this situation and, if possible, to consolidate further. All wealth in the US, all stability, all prosperity depends on this.

More babbling without saying anything.

The US is a violent menace.

It totally inflamed the ME with it's terrorist attack of Iraq in 2003. It empowered ISIS and ran. It ignited sectarian violence in Iraq that lasts to this day.

And it supports the Saudi dictatorship that tortures and murder reporters.
 
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Islam has been attacking for most of it's existence.

World history is totally divided between the pre-industrial age and the post-industrial age. Then again by the nuclear age.

Power massively shifts after the Industrial age and Muslim power is so inferior the West occupies and controls Muslim lands. The past is over.

And the story since has been massive encroachment of Muslim lands by the West.

You realize virtually all "Muslim" lands were obtained by violence? Why is it ok for them to take land but unacceptable for others to react to that?
 
What Israel did was only made possible because of US weapons.

It could not have happened at any other time.
 
Islam has been attacking for most of it's existence.

World history is totally divided between the pre-industrial age and the post-industrial age. Then again by the nuclear age.

Power massively shifts after the Industrial age and Muslim power is so inferior the West occupies and controls Muslim lands. The past is over.

And the story since has been massive encroachment of Muslim lands by the West.

You realize virtually all "Muslim" lands were obtained by violence? Why is it ok for them to take land but unacceptable for others to react to that?

What Israel did was only made possible because of US weapons.

It could not have happened at any other time.

1) Your "answer" doesn't address the point at all.

2) The Israeli nukes are home-grown.
 
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