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African Immigrant Says College Degrees Mostly Useless

Trausti

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Elon Musk says college is 'basically for fun' but 'not for learning,' and that a degree isn't 'evidence of exceptional ability'

During the audience Q&A portion, Musk was asked how colleges and industries could make it easier for students to afford college, as well as create more access for underprivileged students.

Musk said "you don't need college to learn stuff" and that knowledge is available basically for free. He described college as a bunch of "annoying homework assignments" and said one of the main values of attending college is students spending time with people their own age before joining the workforce.

"I think colleges are basically for fun and to prove you can do your chores, but they're not for learning," Musk said, garnering applause and a few laughs.

Musk said he wanted to make sure Tesla's recruiting material didn't have anything that says the company requires a college degree, calling the prerequisite "absurd." He expressed his admiration for people like Microsoft's Bill Gates, Apple's Steve Jobs, and Oracle's Larry Ellison, all of whom dropped out of college to start their own companies.

The college industry seems one of the great shams of our age. Most people don't need to go to college, but they go because society says you must. I've yet to see any proof/evidence/study that people leave college smarter than when they entered. But it's a sham - IMO - because of the obscene costs for such low return on investment. It would be good if other companies copied Musk's view and hired based on skill and not college degree. We'd be better off with fewer colleges (but more vocational schools). Most information is free.
 
Most information is free, and yet the world is filled with proud ignoramuses. Go figure.

Education is an investment in learning and practicing skills, learning new information, and becoming a better person. It is not simply certification for a job.

It is true that college is not for everyone. And I think it is true that the benefits of a college education have been oversold in terms of jobs and undersold in terms of actual education. There should be no shame in any career that does not functionally require a college education.
 
Dude has 2 bachelor's degrees. He dropped out of his PhD though.

Also, there is a difference if somebody drops out of college to pursue a business opportunity, especially if timing is essential (like it was for DOS or Facebook) or if somebody drops out because they were too lazy or could not handle the material.
 
One thing that I've learned about billionaires is that they're pretty sure of themselves even when they don't produce any evidence for what they're saying.

College degrees are not useless, but it is certainly true that the prestige and earning power benefits of having one has dropped steadily with increasing degree attainment.

They can also be useful in weeding out anybody who has a degree in gender studies or sociology from infecting a workforce.
 
I'm sure there's a narrow application where college degrees are useless. An ax is a very useful tool, but useless for drawing water from a well. The problem is, not all degrees are created equal.

The Liberal Arts degree was created so wealthy people would not see their wealth inherited by ignorant savages. It was never intended to give a person the knowledge and skills to earn a living. The only profession that existed at that time was the clergy. Scions of the rich who had no intention of becoming a priest were allowed to sit in classes because they could pay. The occupations which today are grouped together as STEM, were considered "trades".

Today, degrees in those trades yield well paying jobs, which are likely to provide a surplus to pay for the tuition. The same cannot be said for a Bachelor of Arts degree.
 
Elon Musk says college is 'basically for fun' but 'not for learning,' and that a degree isn't 'evidence of exceptional ability'

During the audience Q&A portion, Musk was asked how colleges and industries could make it easier for students to afford college, as well as create more access for underprivileged students.

Musk said "you don't need college to learn stuff" and that knowledge is available basically for free. He described college as a bunch of "annoying homework assignments" and said one of the main values of attending college is students spending time with people their own age before joining the workforce.

"I think colleges are basically for fun and to prove you can do your chores, but they're not for learning," Musk said, garnering applause and a few laughs.

Musk said he wanted to make sure Tesla's recruiting material didn't have anything that says the company requires a college degree, calling the prerequisite "absurd." He expressed his admiration for people like Microsoft's Bill Gates, Apple's Steve Jobs, and Oracle's Larry Ellison, all of whom dropped out of college to start their own companies.

The college industry seems one of the great shams of our age. Most people don't need to go to college, but they go because society says you must. I've yet to see any proof/evidence/study that people leave college smarter than when they entered. But it's a sham - IMO - because of the obscene costs for such low return on investment. It would be good if other companies copied Musk's view and hired based on skill and not college degree. We'd be better off with fewer colleges (but more vocational schools). Most information is free.

You're under a misconception about the point of degrees. Sometimes they're about what you learn, but more often they're about proving that you completed a difficult curriculum of study. In the end this means that if it's between you and two other people for work, you've got proof that you've accomplished something.

The reason many people's degrees are useless now isn't because of what they do/don't learn, it's because degrees are now the bare minimum to get a job outside of a trade. IOW, they're no longer a reliable way to differentiate yourself when competing for scarce jobs.
 
College Graduates Still Earn More than Non-Graduates in Every State in the U.S.

When you start thinking about college degrees as a battle axe to chop off the legs of your competition, rather than something that makes you intrinsically smarter, they start to make much more sense.

But even then, the idea that you never learn anything is a fallacy too. Of course people must be learning something. In my software diploma I learned an enormous amount, for instance.
 
You learn how to learn... you learn critical thinking... the material in the books you read are not the riches you walk away with... the having read, understood, discussed, convinced people to agree with you... writing skills.. thinking skills... socializing skills... those are the riches.
 
I think there is a kernel of truth to what he says but to say degrees are useless is a bit wide of the mark. I think for certain fields of study, four years is a bit much. I'm more in favor of vocational schools and qualifications/certifications than college degrees.
 
Degrees have become a mass produced commodity. Volume increased especially for foreigners paying full tuition and quality went down. College grads who can not carry a conversation.
 
Degrees have become a mass produced commodity. Volume increased especially for foreigners paying full tuition and quality went down. College grads who can not carry a conversation.

Or college grads who can not make change. They have to rely on what the cash register tells them the change is.

I've seen five and six year old kids selling chiclets in Mexican town plazas that had no problem making change.
 
Degrees have become a mass produced commodity. Volume increased especially for foreigners paying full tuition and quality went down. College grads who can not carry a conversation.

Or college grads who can not make change. They have to rely on what the cash register tells them the change is.

I've seen five and six year old kids selling chiclets in Mexican town plazas that had no problem making change.

I don't know about the U.S. but this seems to be over-dramatizing it a bit. No there is no guarantee that a college grad is going to come out the other side more brilliant than before, but at least across Canada there is a high barrier of entry just to get into colleges. This means that those coming out the other side typically are very smart, at least compared to those without a degree. Because again, the point of a degree is to prove you've completed a curriculum, not necessarily to fundamentally change your innate ability.

I'd also hesitate to call degrees a mass produced commodity. A few years ago roughly 22% of Canadian adults held a diploma, that's a small minority. The problem for degree holders isn't that they're mass produced, it's that we now live in an economy where people are only paid well if they have specialized skills, which is something that a classic bachelor degree doesn't offer. And so our world's wealthiest people all have a degree + something else, if the degree didn't already teach useful skills.
 
Degrees have become a mass produced commodity. Volume increased especially for foreigners paying full tuition and quality went down. College grads who can not carry a conversation.

Or college grads who can not make change. They have to rely on what the cash register tells them the change is.

I've seen five and six year old kids selling chiclets in Mexican town plazas that had no problem making change.

I don't know about the U.S. but this seems to be over-dramatizing it a bit.
Not really, but certainly not true for all graduates. I actually occasionally test this at the chagrin of a dear friend. After a short conversation with a cashier and finding that they are a graduate with one of those majors I think are a waste of time (like gender studies, a degree that prepares them for no meaningful job and why they are a cashier) they will ring up the sale. If it is something like $3.48 I give them a $5 or $10 bill and wait for them to enter it. Then, before they get the change shown on the display, I'll say, "wait I've got three cents" and hand it to them. I have found several that give a long pause and a look of total confusion then give me the change shown on the register plus my three cents back. Meanwhile my friend is pretending to be a stranger.

If they happen to be able to make change then I will have been able to reduce the number of coins in my pocket. If they can't then I will have a lot of penneys in my pocket.
 
I don't know about the U.S. but this seems to be over-dramatizing it a bit.
Not really, but certainly not true for all graduates. I actually occasionally test this at the chagrin of a dear friend. After a short conversation with a cashier and finding that they are a graduate with one of those majors I think are a waste of time (like gender studies) they will ring up the sale. If it is something like $3.48 I give them a $5 or $10 bill and wait for them to enter it. Then, before they get the change shown on the display, I'll say, "wait I've got three cents" and hand it to them. I have found several that give a long pause and a look of total confusion then give me the change shown on the register plus my three cents back. Meanwhile my friend is pretending to be a stranger.

If they happen to be able to make change then I will have been able to reduce the number of coins in my pocket. If they can't then I will have a lot of penneys in my pocket.

Sure, but would you get the same results, more consistently among people without a degree? Would you get the same result if someone had preemptively taught the person what you were doing? Would the college grad catch onto the concept faster than the non-college grad?

There are majors that are more or less useful than others, and that's likely also reflected by who gets well-paying jobs after school. But that's far from a sign that degrees are useless. Because again, I'll hammer home the point - the point is to prove to an employer that you a) got into college b) graduated from college.

But I'd add that it is likely the case that degrees not offering specialized skills are becoming less useful - that's not a problem with degrees, that's a problem with a more competitive economy.
 
I think a real problem is that there is thinking that confuses education with job training, and that if you cannot turn a buck on something you learned, it is useless to you.

My degree and minors are both in sciences, with a special emphasis within each discipline. These allowed me to get a well paying job in a field in high--and growing demand.

I loved my classes--loved the material, loved learning the skills that went along with the knowledge base and the way of looking at the world that I acquired along with my degree. But I knew that the job I would most likely get with my degree (given my limitations of geography--my husband had a really good job in a specific location) would not be what I really enjoyed doing. I knew it would be a well paying job and if I was lucky, a job that could potentially lead to more opportunity. Just telling people where I worked gains me a lot more respect than it should.

But I didn't actually enjoy the job very much. It was in many ways just too rigid a work place for me. I'm not complaining about the rigidity: it was in place for very good reasons. But it rubbed against me the wrong ways, no matter how hard I shifted. I stuck it out for a long time but I honestly wanted to quit from the very beginning. It drained the life out of me more than I can describe here. Not the job's fault. It was simply a mis-match. I don't regret my degree. I do regret that I ended up living in an area with so limited options for using my interest in this field.

I also took a bunch of courses in subjects that seemingly would never profit me. My language skills got me a job years ago that I had never dreamed existed. It wasn't well paying but I didn't intend to stay long--and I didn't. There were good things and bad things about that job but honestly,most of the time it was fun and I learned a lot that I would never have learned in another kind of job.

My background in theater, drama, etc.(strictly non-performing), along with a hefty resume of volunteer work, helped me land another job where I was surrounded by creative people, and had a bunch of side benefits (aside from working with creatives) to it but again, it wasn't well paying, had no capacity to be well paying and was not intended to be a long term gig. And it wasn't. But it was fun.

Maybe I enjoyed those shorter term jobs because they were shorter term jobs. Maybe it was precisely because they took me in directions that were opposite of what my main areas of study were.

My father was shocked at the drama/theater classes I took. He saw them as a waste of time/money. I thought they were fun and I never dreamed they'd help me get a job I liked, but they did. He tolerated the foreign language as a fad I had to submit to to earn a degree that would earn me money. But it did help me earn a living at a time when I really really needed that job--and learned a lot from that job.

In my view, an education isn't to get you ready for the job market. It's to teach you to think. Not what to think but: To Think. To think for yourself, to think about things you'd never have thought of before, to see the world and the people and other creatures (and organisms) living on this world more fully. To be able to imagine different worlds, different ways of looking, seeing, believing, describing, interacting, doing.

Perhaps most importantly: by learning, you become more capable of learning more and different things. Your brain is trained, so to speak. It's expanded. It's more capable than it was before.

The purpose of an education is to make you a better person. Not better than the person who didn't go to the same school/program for the same number of years earning the same GPA or degree but better than you were before.

So just imagine what dumb evil person I used to be!
 
I don't know about the U.S. but this seems to be over-dramatizing it a bit.
Not really, but certainly not true for all graduates. I actually occasionally test this at the chagrin of a dear friend. After a short conversation with a cashier and finding that they are a graduate with one of those majors I think are a waste of time (like gender studies) they will ring up the sale. If it is something like $3.48 I give them a $5 or $10 bill and wait for them to enter it. Then, before they get the change shown on the display, I'll say, "wait I've got three cents" and hand it to them. I have found several that give a long pause and a look of total confusion then give me the change shown on the register plus my three cents back. Meanwhile my friend is pretending to be a stranger.

If they happen to be able to make change then I will have been able to reduce the number of coins in my pocket. If they can't then I will have a lot of penneys in my pocket.

Sure, but would you get the same results, more consistently among people without a degree?
Probably. But that is sorta the point. Maybe I have a screwy idea of education. I think that a degree that requires four years of someone's life and fifty thousand or more dollars should prepare someone with better knowledge and skills to fill a job than someone who didn't spend the wealth and time.

At the basics, I can't think of any job where an understanding of basic math like addition and subtraction aren't useful at least occasionally. For someone to be able to be awarded a four degree and not have learned this skill is rather absurd to me.
 
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In retrospect I had a very good high school education. Heavy emphasis on reading comprehension and writing.

In college I had two classes in political science and four in philosophy. That is where I learned to argue, debate, defend positions, and express ideas. It served me well as an engineer. I am sure there are exceptions, but I do not see how you can gain that without college experience. Malcolm X was an exception.

Competing with and interacting with others.

In the news locally Amazon is no longer requiting college degrees for many jobs. In the local news they no longer require a degree for coders, the kind of work does not require a CS degree.
 
I don't know about the U.S. but this seems to be over-dramatizing it a bit.
Not really, but certainly not true for all graduates. I actually occasionally test this at the chagrin of a dear friend. After a short conversation with a cashier and finding that they are a graduate with one of those majors I think are a waste of time (like gender studies, a degree that prepares them for no meaningful job and why they are a cashier) they will ring up the sale. If it is something like $3.48 I give them a $5 or $10 bill and wait for them to enter it. Then, before they get the change shown on the display, I'll say, "wait I've got three cents" and hand it to them. I have found several that give a long pause and a look of total confusion then give me the change shown on the register plus my three cents back. Meanwhile my friend is pretending to be a stranger.

If they happen to be able to make change then I will have been able to reduce the number of coins in my pocket. If they can't then I will have a lot of penneys in my pocket.

If someone gave me 5 dollars and three cents for a $3.48 transaction, I'd stop too because I'd be taken aback thinking "What the hell kind of a douche am I dealing with?"
 
In retrospect I had a very good high school education. Heavy emphasis on reading comprehension and writing.

In college I had two classes in political science and four in philosophy. That is where I learned to argue, debate, defend positions, and express ideas. It served me well as an engineer. I am sure there are exceptions, but I do not see how you can gain that without college experience. Malcolm X was an exception.

Competing with and interacting with others.

In the news locally Amazon is no longer requiting college degrees for many jobs. In the local news they no longer require a degree for coders, the kind of work does not require a CS degree.

I will say, the landscape for being hired as a developer with no CS background is going to shrink. One, more and more kids are majoring in CS. And if the choice comes down to it, likely they will go with the CS grad. Of course, work experience would trump anything.

But a lot of the programming jobs that don't require a good background in CS (i.e. algorithms, data structures, etc) is going to shrink because a lot of those jobs are being automated away (usually by people with CS degrees). Or, they can hire someone in Bangladesh or Argentina working remotely and pay them a fraction.

Of course, most interviews at good programming jobs already basically amount to what would be an exam on data structures and algorithms. So, you don't necessarily need the degree. You can pick up the books and get the background yourself. Nowadays, you can use MOOCs to and get these classes, introductory to advanced/graduate level, from places like Stanford and MIT without paying a cent.
 
I don't know about the U.S. but this seems to be over-dramatizing it a bit.
Not really, but certainly not true for all graduates. I actually occasionally test this at the chagrin of a dear friend. After a short conversation with a cashier and finding that they are a graduate with one of those majors I think are a waste of time (like gender studies, a degree that prepares them for no meaningful job and why they are a cashier) they will ring up the sale. If it is something like $3.48 I give them a $5 or $10 bill and wait for them to enter it. Then, before they get the change shown on the display, I'll say, "wait I've got three cents" and hand it to them. I have found several that give a long pause and a look of total confusion then give me the change shown on the register plus my three cents back. Meanwhile my friend is pretending to be a stranger.

If they happen to be able to make change then I will have been able to reduce the number of coins in my pocket. If they can't then I will have a lot of penneys in my pocket.

If someone gave me 5 dollars and three cents for a $3.48 transaction, I'd stop too because I'd be taken aback thinking "What the hell kind of a douche am I dealing with?"

I don't know that it's happened before, but I agree with ZiprHead here.

It's one thing to give a cashier a $10 note and a 5c cent coin if what you are buying costs $5.05 so you can get a $5 note back without change. But it's quite another to have a cashier start a transaction, and then hand them more money after they've entered an amount into a till, just to satisfy your sense of smug superiority.
 
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