"Almost all terrorists are Muslim" derail split from "Rants"

[DrZoidberg]

Muslims can't separate church from state as a single unit since they are not a single nationality.

Turkey has a secular government with church/state separation. They are also democratic. So obviously it is possible.

There are plenty of solid sociological theories to explain why many predominantly muslim countries suffer from fascist governments, tribalism and corruption. The most likely reason being their late shift from a predominantly agrarian economy to a predominantly industrial economy. Turkey did this almost the same time as central Europe, and has, in the 20th century, matched their church/state type religious relationship.

The fact that fascist rulers have abused Islam in order to keep themselves in power has been mirrored by plenty of Christian dictators and kings throughout history. It is not unique to Islamic rulers.

The point I'm trying to convey is that true, xtian dictators and kings have been corrupt and kept society back for their own ends. Apart from some South American banana republics that still have corrupt governments and therefore in the third world category, most of the xtian world separated church and state many decades ago and as a result are reaping the benefits of doing so by advancing to the 21st century. As for Turkey, they are sinking into the same quagmire as other muslim countries because of their nut job PM and now President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan who is determined to make it an islamic state.

Lol... do you think the Saudi king is doing any of his Islamic promotion for the benefit of Islam? Muahahaha... all dictators/kings are alike. They have to put all of their focus on clinging on to power. If that isn't paramount to them they're out to whoever is a bit more agressive. That is always the problem of autocratic rule. If the ruler focuses on anybody but themselves, they are screwed. Any move toward anything else is showing weakness. Something no ruler can afford.

The Saudi kings claim to power is very weak. Any tribal cheifs of the peninsula has just as good a claim. The fact ghat he just happened to be related to one of Islams major philosophers (Wahab) is just a random event in history. So he could hardly have backed any other form of Islam.

I put Erdogan in the same category as any conservative. His Islamism doesn't make him an enemy of church/state separation. It's more like Turkeys mosque/state separation has been overly extreme, and they've been normalising the relationship.

 

[angelo]

This idiot [Erdogan] made a laughing stock of himself when he said that muslims were the true discoverers of America before Columbus. He obviously has a complex about his religion in trying to make it something it hasn't been for centuries.

 

[Jokodo]

Muslims can't separate church from state as a single unit since they are not a single nationality.

Turkey has a secular government with church/state separation. They are also democratic. So obviously it is possible.

There are plenty of solid sociological theories to explain why many predominantly muslim countries suffer from fascist governments, tribalism and corruption. The most likely reason being their late shift from a predominantly agrarian economy to a predominantly industrial economy. Turkey did this almost the same time as central Europe, and has, in the 20th century, matched their church/state type religious relationship.

The fact that fascist rulers have abused Islam in order to keep themselves in power has been mirrored by plenty of Christian dictators and kings throughout history. It is not unique to Islamic rulers.

The point I'm trying to convey is that true, xtian dictators and kings have been corrupt and kept society back for their own ends. Apart from some South American banana republics that still have corrupt governments and therefore in the third world category, most of the xtian world separated church and state many decades ago and as a result are reaping the benefits of doing so by advancing to the 21st century.

"[M]ost of the Christian world ... [a]part from some South American banana republics"? You're forgetting that most of Africa is Christian. "Many decades ago"? Even in Europe, Spain and Portugal had clerical fascist government until the mid-70s (until 1975 and '74 respectively).

 

[dystopian]

The difference is as I've pointed out before is that xtians have been dragged into modernity, they no longer kill for Jehovah as in Genesis describes.

No; *some* christians have been dragged into modernity. You're not going to tell me that Uganda for instance, which is overwhelmingly christian, doesn't have serious problems with christians killing for jehova. If it wasn't for international pressure the national government would've made being gay punishable by death. Oh, and then there's groups like the Lord's Resistance Army, which has killed and mutilated plenty of people for christ.

So once again, you're drawing all the wrong comparisons. Compare christians from the third world to muslims from the third world, and you find the differences drop dramatically. Meanwhile, the muslims who live in developed countries have by and large been dragged into modernity just as much as the christians. They don't go around killing people because someone said something mean about islam. They start up a petition or some shit.

I'm sick to death of this self hatred coming from the left.

Self-hatred? First of all, I'm not an American or a Brit; criticizing those two countries and their foreign policy does NOT represent self-hatred for me. Secondly, criticizing those countries and their foreign policy doesn't even constitute self-hatred for Americans and Brits themselves.

Western foreign policy has fuck all to do with the way these islamic countries are/have been run.

Really? Borders arbitrarily drawn as a result of colonialism, constantly sponsoring coups, installing dictators, bombing large swaths of their countries... that has *nothing* to do with how they're being run?

They are the way they are because of corruption and for refusing to move ahead into the 21sy century. When was the last time an Arab won a Nobel Prize for anything?

2011.

2014 if we're counting muslims instead of just Arabs.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Only to those who defend terrorism. Normally it's quite clear.

Are the Israeli settlers who attack Palestinian civilians terrorists?

Yes, although most such reports appear to be bogus.

 

[bilby]

No; *some* christians have been dragged into modernity. You're not going to tell me that Uganda for instance, which is overwhelmingly christian, doesn't have serious problems with christians killing for jehova. If it wasn't for international pressure the national government would've made being gay punishable by death. Oh, and then there's groups like the Lord's Resistance Army, which has killed and mutilated plenty of people for christ.

So once again, you're drawing all the wrong comparisons. Compare christians from the third world to muslims from the third world, and you find the differences drop dramatically. Meanwhile, the muslims who live in developed countries have by and large been dragged into modernity just as much as the christians. They don't go around killing people because someone said something mean about islam. They start up a petition or some shit.

I'm sick to death of this self hatred coming from the left.

Self-hatred? First of all, I'm not an American or a Brit; criticizing those two countries and their foreign policy does NOT represent self-hatred for me. Secondly, criticizing those countries and their foreign policy doesn't even constitute self-hatred for Americans and Brits themselves.

Western foreign policy has fuck all to do with the way these islamic countries are/have been run.

Really? Borders arbitrarily drawn as a result of colonialism, constantly sponsoring coups, installing dictators, bombing large swaths of their countries... that has *nothing* to do with how they're being run?

They are the way they are because of corruption and for refusing to move ahead into the 21sy century. When was the last time an Arab won a Nobel Prize for anything?

2011.

2014 if we're counting muslims instead of just Arabs.

That was a rhetorical question.

You are not supposed to know the answer; you are supposed, like the questioner, to use your ignorance of the answer to bolster an uninformed hatred of the outgroup.

If people are going to start knowing stuff, how are we ever going to get enough support to impose sweeping sanctions against people who have darker skin than ours? And it's not racism, because Islam isn't a race, so it's OK to be mindlessly bigoted.

Or something.

 

[arkirk]

There is now a seperate thread dedicated to this. It's proving very difficult to seperate 'soldier' from 'terrorist'.

Only to those who defend terrorism. Normally it's quite clear.

It really depends on the regime the soldier is working for whether he is a terrorist or not. I believe all soldiers have the potential to be terrorists. They are trained to kill people. All soldiers who sit in nuclear missile silos are potential terrorists. They are there to strike terror in the enemy, and their threat is aimed at civilian populations. So are our drones...they definitely fit the definition of terrorism, also the Israelis attacks on civilian populations in Gaza and the West bank have a clear stamp of terrorism on it with a light glazing of fear mongering Netanyahu propaganda. Terrorism is a political football that only the in people in various governments can throw. In my eyes, the nuclear submarines cruising the oceans with their warheads are instruments of terror operated by state sponsored terrorists. But wait...these people don't have turbans and they don't chant "Allah akbar!" So Loren can't see clearly their capacity as terrorists. You know, the U.S. firebombed Tokyo and nuked two cities already in Japan. We need to get these terror toys out of these creepy hand and dismantle them ASAP.

 

[Jokodo]

I'm sick to death of this self hatred coming from the left.

Anyone with enough of a totalitarian mindset to openly admit being "sick to death" of people having the audacity to criticise their own gouvernment (because that's what your lingo about "self hatred" translates to) has ipso facto lost their right to pose as a defender of democracy and freedom.

 

[angelo]

Are the Israeli settlers who attack Palestinian civilians terrorists?

Yes, although most such reports appear to be bogus.

They have become masters in shifting blame with most of the media on side. Their policy of always, but always play the victim has been successful because they generally have the media on side. How dare the Israelis defend themselves!

A Palestinian attacks a Jew the Jew must've deserved it, or it's somehow turned around to make it look like it was the Jew all along who done the attacking!

 

[Warpoet]

angelo, it's pretty bad when you're the least credible person talking about Islam in a thread that metacristi has posted in. Congratulations.

 

[angelo]

Who is metacristi? Not credible hey. Anyone that doesn't agree with what appears to be a consensus of islam apologists here isn't credible. I see!

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

Compare the number of terrorists to the number of Muslims. It's a tiny percentage.


The real problem is that the terrorists operate with near impunity in Muslim communities. While they may be rejected they aren't reported.

- - - Updated - - -

One cannot argue with one who is so blind that sees the world through rose coloured glasses. Perhaps you should do a detour while overseas and stop off in Israel for a week or so to see first hand what islamic terrorism is all about!!

What evidence would this detour provide to support your incorrect assertion that "nearly all terrorists are Muslims"?

Where is there a substantial non-Muslim terrorist movement?

The only things that even come close are drug-war related.

Well, we have the state terrorism from Vodkastan in the Ukrane for starters. Mexican drug cartels.

 

[Warpoet]

Who is metacristi? Not credible hey. Anyone that doesn't agree with what appears to be a consensus of islam apologists here isn't credible. I see!

More like "someone who has failed to defend a single claim he's made in the entire thread buts keeps on moving the goalposts and spouting the same rhetoric anyway" isn't credible.

 

[untermensche]

The greatest act of terrorism in this century was the US invasion of Iraq.

Millions terrorized. Who knows how many tortured and killed? A nation destroyed.

Some don't even recognize terrorism unless it is carried out in less than the most modern way.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Yes, although most such reports appear to be bogus.

They have become masters in shifting blame with most of the media on side. Their policy of always, but always play the victim has been successful because they generally have the media on side. How dare the Israelis defend themselves!

A Palestinian attacks a Jew the Jew must've deserved it, or it's somehow turned around to make it look like it was the Jew all along who done the attacking!

That's not even what I was talking about. Rather, "price tag" attacks are generally a cover for internal issues or accidents.

- - - Updated - - -

Compare the number of terrorists to the number of Muslims. It's a tiny percentage.


The real problem is that the terrorists operate with near impunity in Muslim communities. While they may be rejected they aren't reported.

- - - Updated - - -

One cannot argue with one who is so blind that sees the world through rose coloured glasses. Perhaps you should do a detour while overseas and stop off in Israel for a week or so to see first hand what islamic terrorism is all about!!

What evidence would this detour provide to support your incorrect assertion that "nearly all terrorists are Muslims"?

Where is there a substantial non-Muslim terrorist movement?

The only things that even come close are drug-war related.

Well, we have the state terrorism from Vodkastan in the Ukrane for starters. Mexican drug cartels.

The Mexican drug cartels are drug-war related.

- - - Updated - - -

The greatest act of terrorism in this century was the US invasion of Iraq.

Millions terrorized. Who knows how many tortured and killed? A nation destroyed.

Some don't even recognize terrorism unless it is carried out in less than the most modern way.

Some don't understand what the word "terrorism" means.


I do agree that Iraq was destroyed by terrorism--but not the US invasion. Rather, Sunni/Shia actions, mostly driven by outside agitators.

 

[untermensche]

The greatest act of terrorism in this century was the US invasion of Iraq.

Millions terrorized. Who knows how many tortured and killed? A nation destroyed.

Some don't even recognize terrorism unless it is carried out in less than the most modern way.

Some don't understand what the word "terrorism" means.

I couldn't agree more

Deliberate military attacks, widespread killing and serious injury, the destruction of infrastructure, massive systematic torture and imprisonment of the innocent, and all based on a pack of lies.

Nothing could fit the definition of deliberate premeditated terrorism better.

 

[angelo]

The proof is in the pudding. There is not one nation on the planet that has an islamic government that's an example of democracy and technological advancement as well as peaceful co existence with the western world. Most are in turmoil with muslims fighting muslims as well as xtians and other infidels. Youngsters are taught at an early age to hate what the west stands for. illiteracy in many muslim nations is as bad as you'll get in any third world nation.
The conditions are perfect to breed islamic extremist who think there's no honour higher than becoming a martyr for islam and taking as many infidels with them as possible.

 

[laughing dog]

The proof is in the pudding. There is not one nation on the planet that has an islamic government that's an example of democracy and technological advancement as well as peaceful co existence with the western world.

Turkey is an example.

 

[angelo]

The proof is in the pudding. There is not one nation on the planet that has an islamic government that's an example of democracy and technological advancement as well as peaceful co existence with the western world.

Turkey is an example.

Turkey is member of Nato as well which is a worry, with friends like that who needs enemies! They only recently refused Americans use their air space and open the borders to Kurds refugees. Turkey is heading down the islamic state at a rate of knots.

 

[Bomb#20]

The proof is in the pudding. There is not one nation on the planet that has an islamic government that's an example of democracy and technological advancement as well as peaceful co existence with the western world.

Well, there's Albania. But then, its majority Muslims tend to be some of the most secular in the world. I suspect an awful lot of them only identify as Muslim as a way of saying "We're very, very not communist any more!"