American beliefs in Evolution

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Not only pollution, the issue is multifaceted, habitat and ecosystem destruction, loss of biodiversity, converting prime land and habitats into suburbs, roads and shopping malls, and more

Many people are unaware of these things. It's likely attributable to the view that our species has regards to "nature." It's something "out there," not something we need, just a recreational activity, another disposable commodity.

 

[DBT]

Not only pollution, the issue is multifaceted, habitat and ecosystem destruction, loss of biodiversity, converting prime land and habitats into suburbs, roads and shopping malls, and more

Many people are unaware of these things. It's likely attributable to the view that our species has regards to "nature." It's something "out there," not something we need, just a recreational activity, another disposable commodity.

Some argue that even clean abundant energy is not enough to avert a major crisis because our economic system, business and way of life is inherently exploitative, that we just keep on doing the same things regardless.

"When it comes to climate change, the problem is not just the type of energy we are using, it’s what we’re doing with it. What would we do with 100% clean energy? Exactly what we are doing with fossil fuels: raze more forests, build more meat farms, expand industrial agriculture, produce more cement, and fill more landfill sites, all of which will pump deadly amounts of greenhouse gas into the air. We will do these things because our economic system demands endless compound growth, and for some reason we have not thought to question this."

Clean energy won’t save us – only a new economic system can

It’s time to pour our creative energies into imagining a new global economy. Infinite growth is a dangerous illusion

www.theguardian.com

 

[unapologetic]

We can't run out of anything.

Bilby, I've been trying to not get into an argument with you (I'm not very good at arguments) but your rose colored view of the future is starting to get annoying.
Clean water will run short. Cleaning sea water is expensive, and shortages will lead to upheaval. Burned carbon cannot be recycled. Nuclear has pollution problems too. We will have an unlimited supply of stuff we can no longer make use of. And the more people with their head in the sand (like you) The less likely the future you see.

Maybe we can dig up our streets, and turn the asphalt into petrol? /s

 

[bilby]

Cleaning sea water is expensive

Not particularly. Desalination costs about 65¢ Australian per cubic metre (that's about 43¢ US)

Burned carbon cannot be recycled.

Yes, it can. For about $1.40US a gallon operating cost, in 2007, if you're making gasoline from it; Rather less if you make methanol. That is, according to the paper I have linked several times in these discussions.

Nuclear has pollution problems too

Does it? Could you be more specific about these "pollution problems"?

Nuclear power is the only industry in history that completely manages its waste stream; In normal operation, nuclear power plants produce zero pollution - unless you want to count the exhaust from the workers' vehicles.

your rose colored view of the future is starting to get annoying

I don't have a "rose colored view of the future". I fully expect humanity to fuck it up massively.

Where we differ is that I recognise that all of the technological advances required to avoid this are already made; Our problem isn't that we don't have a way to stop the damage, or a way to fix the damage; Our problem is that the world is full of adherents to the appeal to nature fallacy, who are hell-bent on preventing any actually effective solutions from being implemented. Apparently for no better reason than that they require technology. And technology is bad. And scary.

Pretending that we can fix the problems with windmills and sunshine is beyond fucking stupid, and requires an incredible ignorance of the scale and nature of the problems we face.

But politicians are so scared of the effect the N word has on their popularity, thst they will do anything rather than face up to the fact that nuclear power is by far and away the best solution to almost all of the environmental problems we face.

Seventy years of propaganda is remarkably effective. The single person most responsible for environmental degradation in history is probably Jane Fonda; Certainly her actions have caused millions of unnecessary deaths.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Bilby, I've been trying to not get into an argument with you (I'm not very good at arguments) but your rose colored view of the future is starting to get annoying.

Bilby is not unique and currently is in the majority as far as our species goes. Most humans see themselves as totally separate from the rest of the natural world and anyone telling them they are connected to nature is going to get the brushoff. It's like trying to have a conversation in two different languages. Nature has no value unless we humans can conveniently consume it like we do a sandwich. I think this has been selected for and isn't going to go away anytime soon, and the extermination of other species isn't something most of us think about or care about, unfortunately.

My guess at what causes this behavior is that it is obviously a combination of one's personal interests and experiences. I used to lead hikes in a local park sponsored by the local branch of our public library. The majority of people did not want to get out of sight of their vehicles and were visibly afraid when the trail took them out of sight of the car. That's really odd in my view but more common than not. Myself, on the other hand, I've backpacked and ridden out storms on lonely peaks and savored the experience. I'm geared up for those things both mentally and physically. I invited a friend on a sojourn through a local arboretum and for him it was torture. He couldn't step across streams and didn't have the proper shoes and clothing to just enjoy himself. It's as if he was handicapped but I realized he just lived in a different world, one of sidewalks and air-conditioners and televisions.

 

[unapologetic]

OK Bilby, what are YOU doing about it? Cus what you see ain't gonna get done.
Like the believers in an afterlife, What you are saying is just wishfull thinking.
And it's boring me.

 

[unapologetic]

according to the paper I have linked

Interesting. But it's just a 'concept' or research paper.
Untill someone builds one, it could be another 'cold fusion' debacle.
And it's been 6 years.

 

[bilby]

Bilby is not unique and currently is in the majority as far as our species goes.

Hardly. Most people strongly disagree with me on environmental issues.

Most humans see themselves as totally separate from the rest of the natural world and anyone telling them they are connected to nature is going to get the brushoff.

Perhaps they do; I am certainly not one of those people.

 

[SIB]

I don't know why more theist just don't come out and say, "Yeah, god did it through evolution."

 

[DBT]

I guess Genesis describes special creation, ex nihilo.

 

[Elixir]

I don't know why more theist just don't come out and say, "Yeah, god did it through evolution."

As an "atheist" I have all the love, honor, respect and adulation one could imagine, for a god that dreamt up and instituted a process so simple, elegant and creative as evolution.
Far more than I'd respect some magician that poofed a finished product like this one into existence in a week. Of course I'd have to give props for the poofery that managed to precisely mimic, and even provide evidence for, what one would expect to see if the process of evolution was responsible for the biodiversity we witness. Such an artist of deception would have to be acknowledged.

 

[ideologyhunter]

As an atheist, I have sometimes tried to spell out the basic truth about evolution to 'people of faith'.
That the partial skeleton of a hominid called Lucy, was found in Ethiopia, dating back over 3 million years.
That another, male, skeleton was found nearby, tentatively named Desi.
Two more partial skeletons, one male, one female ('Fred' and 'Ethel', named after Frederick Douglass and Ethel Rosenberg) were found.
These hominids had apparently been as far north as present-day Italy, and at least one of them made an agricultural breakthrough by stomping on grapes to make wine.
Twitter accounts for all four were located, and none of their contacts were listed as 'Adam' or 'Eve'.
I told my born-again cousins all this, and they said they would rely on Genesis, not me, and that furthermore, they were convinced I was mocking them. In the interest of amity, family cohesion, and inheritance issues, I gave up.