Angola Bans Islam, Shuts Down Mosques

[Keith&Co.]

And what would you say was the reason for that, Syed?

islam makes sense to them

Then why did Muhammad have to ban their religion, if a more sensible one had been made available?

So... What in the whooping cough of Satan does this observation have to do with C-M-S' observation that Mohammed set a precedent to ban 'other' religions from their territory?

which religion is ban in aribia?

Since Muhammad is not in 'aribia' right now, that's still meaningless as an objection to 'Muhammad set the precedent.'

 

[Syed]

there are lot of muslim country they used to be pagans they dont have wars of apostasy why?

Apostates in Muslim countries know they have to be damned quiet about their lack of belief in Islam. They know what will happen to them if it is discovered that they no longer accept Islam. It's hard to have a war of apostasy if the faithful can't find the apostates cause they hide so well out of fear of the consequences of being discovered.

What do you think would happen if a group of people in Mecca declared openly that they were no longer Muslim, that they had converted to Buddhism?

so war of apostasy is NOT possible right?

 

[skepticalbip]

Apostates in Muslim countries know they have to be damned quiet about their lack of belief in Islam. They know what will happen to them if it is discovered that they no longer accept Islam. It's hard to have a war of apostasy if the faithful can't find the apostates cause they hide so well out of fear of the consequences of being discovered.

What do you think would happen if a group of people in Mecca declared openly that they were no longer Muslim, that they had converted to Buddhism?

so war of apostasy is NOT possible right?

You didn't answer my question. "What do you think would happen if a group of people in Mecca declared openly that they were no longer Muslim, that they had converted to Buddhism?" Or worse, what if they openly declared they left Islam because they were atheists?

Can you think of any other religion where anyone who no longer believed would have any concerns for their safety?

 

[Syed]

islam makes sense to them

Then why did Muhammad have to ban their religion, if a more sensible one had been made available?

So... What in the whooping cough of Satan does this observation have to do with C-M-S' observation that Mohammed set a precedent to ban 'other' religions from their territory?

which religion is ban in aribia?

Since Muhammad is not in 'aribia' right now, that's still meaningless as an objection to 'Muhammad set the precedent.'

which religion is ban in aribia?

 

[Keith&Co.]

Then why did Muhammad have to ban their religion, if a more sensible one had been made available?

So... What in the whooping cough of Satan does this observation have to do with C-M-S' observation that Mohammed set a precedent to ban 'other' religions from their territory?

which religion is ban in aribia?

Since Muhammad is not in 'aribia' right now, that's still meaningless as an objection to 'Muhammad set the precedent.'

which religion is ban in aribia?

Non sequitur.

Syed, DID or DIDN'T Mohammad ban any religions?

 

[Syed]

when did they come back?

Mostly, they came there as guest workers from Europe in the oil boom of the last century. Maybe there were some before that, I don't know. What I do know is that they're not allowed to practise their religion openly, build churches or in any way be publicly Christian. As for the Jews, well, I couldn't actually say for sure if there are any. The point is, when you say they're "still" there, it implies they always have been there, and there was never a time when they weren't. That's patently false.

you should talk to arab christian and jews about their history

i also know you are not that dumb

 

[Syed]

there are lot of muslim country they used to be pagans they dont have wars of apostasy why?

Completely irrelevant, but I'll answer it anyway: historical circumstances.

The apostate tribes in Arabia considered themselves more as submitting to Mohammed, the warlord they were either allied to or subjugated by, rather than as Muslims submitting to Allah. When he died, they considered their allegiance to him annulled, and they went back to polytheism.

what is the reason TODAY american and european converting to islam?

- - - Updated - - -

Then why did Muhammad have to ban their religion, if a more sensible one had been made available?

So... What in the whooping cough of Satan does this observation have to do with C-M-S' observation that Mohammed set a precedent to ban 'other' religions from their territory?

which religion is ban in aribia?

Since Muhammad is not in 'aribia' right now, that's still meaningless as an objection to 'Muhammad set the precedent.'

which religion is ban in aribia?

Non sequitur.

Syed, DID or DIDN'T Mohammad ban any religions?

i asked you which religion is /was banned?

 

[Syed]

so war of apostasy is NOT possible right?

You didn't answer my question. "What do you think would happen if a group of people in Mecca declared openly that they were no longer Muslim, that they had converted to Buddhism?" Or worse, what if they openly declared they left Islam because they were atheists?

Can you think of any other religion where anyone who no longer believed would have any concerns for their safety?

first you must admit there was no war of apostasy

NOW
in the quran allah says THERE IS NO COMPULSION IN RELIGION
in the quran there is NO command to kill apostate

some muslim say to kill apostate but they are WRONG

 

[skepticalbip]

You didn't answer my question. "What do you think would happen if a group of people in Mecca declared openly that they were no longer Muslim, that they had converted to Buddhism?" Or worse, what if they openly declared they left Islam because they were atheists?

Can you think of any other religion where anyone who no longer believed would have any concerns for their safety?

first you must admit there was no war of apostasy

NOW
in the quran allah says THERE IS NO COMPULSION IN RELIGION
in the quran there is NO command to kill apostate

some muslim say to kill apostate but they are WRONG

You still didn't answer the questions. I didn't ask what the quran says, I asked what you would expect to happen in the city of Mecca which is the shinning example of Islam to those who would dare to openly leave the religion of Islam. I also asked if you can think of any other religion where anyone who openly declared that they no longer believed and wouldn't practice the religion would have any concerns for their safety. If there were any concern then this forum wouldn't exist.

I am pretty sure that you are quite aware that imams (Muslim leaders) have issued fatwas for apostates. This is Muslim leadership directing that they should be killed.

I know of no priests, any other Christian church leader, any Jewish rabbis, any Buddhist priests or lamas, etc. that have issued a decree that those who leave their faiths should be killed.

You say, "some muslim say to kill apostate but they are WRONG" and I agree, they are wrong. But I don't see Islam being accepted as a "religion of peace" by other faiths or by atheists until those Muslims who also agree that it is wrong clean their own house and make their religion what they claim, contrary to evidence, it is.


But as to the war on apostasy, if Muslim religious leadership issuing decrees (fatwas) against apostates is considered a war on apostasy, then yes there is a war on apostasy - even if EVERY Muslim isn't involved. Every American wasn't involved in the war in Iraq (much less than 1% were) but there was certainly an American war in Iraq.

 

[Syed]

first you must admit there was no war of apostasy

NOW
in the quran allah says THERE IS NO COMPULSION IN RELIGION
in the quran there is NO command to kill apostate

some muslim say to kill apostate but they are WRONG

You still didn't answer the questions. I didn't ask what the quran says, I asked what you would expect to happen in the city of Mecca which is the shinning example of Islam to those who would dare to openly leave the religion of Islam. I also asked if you can think of any other religion where anyone who openly declared that they no longer believed and wouldn't practice the religion would have any concerns for their safety. If there were any concern then this forum wouldn't exist.

I am pretty sure that you are quite aware that imams (Muslim leaders) have issued fatwas for apostates. This is Muslim leadership directing that they should be killed.

I know of no priests, any other Christian church leader, any Jewish rabbis, any Buddhist priests or lamas, etc. that have issued a decree that those who leave their faiths should be killed.

You say, "some muslim say to kill apostate but they are WRONG" and I agree, they are wrong. But I don't see Islam being accepted as a "religion of peace" by other faiths or by atheists until those Muslims who also agree that it is wrong clean their own house and make their religion what they claim, contrary to evidence, it is.


But as to the war on apostasy, if Muslim religious leadership issuing decrees (fatwas) against apostates is considered a war on apostasy, then yes there is a war on apostasy - even if EVERY Muslim isn't involved. Every American wasn't involved in the war in Iraq (much less than 1% were) but there was certainly an American war in Iraq.

as i said in the quran there is no punishment for apostasy

(5 thing that allah does not commend )

killing apostate, stoning to death, male / female circumcision, jesus is coming back, killing homosexual

could our beloved prophet do something allah does not commended him to do?

there is commandment in the quran that say homosexual should leave town and fasting

dont take all hadiths are as true, if a hadith does not makes sense to you throw in the garbage

many hadiths are writen by shia and sunni mullahs / scholars to glorify their own chosen CULT and leadership

many hadiths are invented by enemy of the prophet to denigrate our beloved prophet and to undermine islam

 

[C_Mucius_Scaevola]

Mostly, they came there as guest workers from Europe in the oil boom of the last century. Maybe there were some before that, I don't know. What I do know is that they're not allowed to practise their religion openly, build churches or in any way be publicly Christian. As for the Jews, well, I couldn't actually say for sure if there are any. The point is, when you say they're "still" there, it implies they always have been there, and there was never a time when they weren't. That's patently false.

you should talk to arab christian and jews about their history

i also know you are not that dumb

Don't move the goalposts. You're talking about Arab christians, when the subject is christians in Arabia. Most Arab christians are not in Arabia, they're in Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, etc.Do you know the official nuber of christians in Saudi Arabia? Zero. Of course, in reality, there are christians there, but not Arab christians. They're all guest workers, mostly Filipino catholics. As for Jews ... don't make me laugh.

Completely irrelevant, but I'll answer it anyway: historical circumstances.

The apostate tribes in Arabia considered themselves more as submitting to Mohammed, the warlord they were either allied to or subjugated by, rather than as Muslims submitting to Allah. When he died, they considered their allegiance to him annulled, and they went back to polytheism.

what is the reason TODAY american and european converting to islam?

Again, irrelevant when we're speaking of the Arabian Peninsula. And not necessarily reflective of reality anyway. There may be small numbers of Europeans and Americans converting to Islam, but the main reason for growth in numbers of muslims in those places is the birth rate among muslim immigrants, aided by lower infant mortality rates than in muslim majority countries.

 

[Syed]

Mucius_Scaevola
Don't move the goalposts. You're talking about Arab christians, when the subject is christians in Arabia. Most Arab christians are not in Arabia, they're in Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, etc.Do you know the official nuber of christians in Saudi Arabia? Zero. Of course, in reality, there are christians there, but not Arab christians. They're all guest workers, mostly Filipino catholics. As for Jews ... don't make me laugh.

ok
what happened to roman pagans in rome ? did you kick them out or killed them all ?

 

[C_Mucius_Scaevola]

Mucius_Scaevola
Don't move the goalposts. You're talking about Arab christians, when the subject is christians in Arabia. Most Arab christians are not in Arabia, they're in Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, etc.Do you know the official nuber of christians in Saudi Arabia? Zero. Of course, in reality, there are christians there, but not Arab christians. They're all guest workers, mostly Filipino catholics. As for Jews ... don't make me laugh.

ok
what happened to roman pagans in rome ? did you kick them out or killed them all ?

Again irrelevant to the topic at hand.

But I'll humour you. The Roman pagans mostly converted to one or other form of Christianity. Eventually. Some of them were persecuted, maybe even killed along the way. But for a majority, as with the converts in lands conquered by the muslims, at some point it became socially and politically advantageous for them to convert, so they did. I don't think many, if any, were "kicked out", although some persecuted sects on the fringes of the Roman Empire chose to leave it, and moved to the Parthian Empire or to the unorganised lands in desert areas, such as Arabia. That's how there came to be christians and jews in godforsaken places like Mecca and Medina, which is how Mohammed was able to hear the stories and legends that later became part of the koran.

As for your question of whether I kicked them out or killed them ... no, I wasn't born back then. If I had been, I'd like to think I'd still have been an atheist, although that might mean I'd have been one of those "kicked out or killed", I'm afraid.

But to get back to the present - how many muslims are there in Rome? If you're going to compare the relative situations of Rome and Arabia in Late Antiquity, why not compare them as they are now? It's a lot more relevant to your life and mine than what was happening 1500 years ago. And as things are now, Rome has citizens of all religions and none, while Saudi Arabia only acknowledges one religion when it comes to citizenship, Islam.

 

[skepticalbip]

You still didn't answer the questions. I didn't ask what the quran says, I asked what you would expect to happen in the city of Mecca which is the shinning example of Islam to those who would dare to openly leave the religion of Islam. I also asked if you can think of any other religion where anyone who openly declared that they no longer believed and wouldn't practice the religion would have any concerns for their safety. If there were any concern then this forum wouldn't exist.

I am pretty sure that you are quite aware that imams (Muslim leaders) have issued fatwas for apostates. This is Muslim leadership directing that they should be killed.

I know of no priests, any other Christian church leader, any Jewish rabbis, any Buddhist priests or lamas, etc. that have issued a decree that those who leave their faiths should be killed.

You say, "some muslim say to kill apostate but they are WRONG" and I agree, they are wrong. But I don't see Islam being accepted as a "religion of peace" by other faiths or by atheists until those Muslims who also agree that it is wrong clean their own house and make their religion what they claim, contrary to evidence, it is.


But as to the war on apostasy, if Muslim religious leadership issuing decrees (fatwas) against apostates is considered a war on apostasy, then yes there is a war on apostasy - even if EVERY Muslim isn't involved. Every American wasn't involved in the war in Iraq (much less than 1% were) but there was certainly an American war in Iraq.

as i said in the quran there is no punishment for apostasy

(5 thing that allah does not commend )

killing apostate, stoning to death, male / female circumcision, jesus is coming back, killing homosexual

could our beloved prophet do something allah does not commended him to do?

there is commandment in the quran that say homosexual should leave town and fasting

dont take all hadiths are as true, if a hadith does not makes sense to you throw in the garbage

many hadiths are writen by shia and sunni mullahs / scholars to glorify their own chosen CULT and leadership

many hadiths are invented by enemy of the prophet to denigrate our beloved prophet and to undermine islam

You are certainly intelligent enough to realize that you are not giving a direct answer to the very simple question of what you would expect to actually happen to any citizens in Mecca who would dare to openly reveal that they no longer believed and stated that they would no longer practice Islam.

It seems obvious to me (because of your deliberate evasiveness) that you are well aware of what the results of that would be but can't admit, even to yourself, that the practice of Islam is a hell of a long way from being as peaceful, loving, and pure as you think it should be. Other religions certainly have problems too but not nearly to the extent demonstrated by practicing Muslims.

 

[C_Mucius_Scaevola]

as i said in the quran there is no punishment for apostasy

Of course not; there's no need for the koran to single out apostates when one of its major themes is the demonisation of "disbelievers". Apostates are by definition disbelievers, and the worst kind: those who believed, then disbelieved. For example:

4:137 Lo! those who believe, then disbelieve and then (again) believe, then disbelieve, and then increase in disbelief, Allah will never pardon them, nor will He guide them unto a way.

So all the punishments for disbelievers are also applicable to apostates, as the epitome of disbelief. No need for special treatment for them, outside the general punishment for disbelief.

 

[skepticalbip]

Of course not; there's no need for the koran to single out apostates when one of its major themes is the demonisation of "disbelievers". Apostates are by definition disbelievers, and the worst kind: those who believed, then disbelieved. For example:

4:137 Lo! those who believe, then disbelieve and then (again) believe, then disbelieve, and then increase in disbelief, Allah will never pardon them, nor will He guide them unto a way.

So all the punishments for disbelievers are also applicable to apostates, as the epitome of disbelief. No need for special treatment for them, outside the general punishment for disbelief.

Actually apostates are singled out for greater punishment than the general non-believer or, at least, are mentioned specifically as being especially heinous. This obviously doesn't mean that those who never accepted Islam are much better off. The Hadith likely base the idea that Allah commands the killing of apostates on the Quran.

He who disbelieves in Allah after his having believed, not he who is compelled while his heart is at rest on account of faith, but he who opens (his) breast to disbelief-- on these is the wrath of Allah, and they shall have a grievous chastisement.

— Quran 16:106

 

[Syed]

Of course not; there's no need for the koran to single out apostates when one of its major themes is the demonisation of "disbelievers". Apostates are by definition disbelievers, and the worst kind: those who believed, then disbelieved. For example:

4:137 Lo! those who believe, then disbelieve and then (again) believe, then disbelieve, and then increase in disbelief, Allah will never pardon them, nor will He guide them unto a way.

So all the punishments for disbelievers are also applicable to apostates, as the epitome of disbelief. No need for special treatment for them, outside the general punishment for disbelief.

what is punishment disbeliever ?

 

[Syed]

Of course not; there's no need for the koran to single out apostates when one of its major themes is the demonisation of "disbelievers". Apostates are by definition disbelievers, and the worst kind: those who believed, then disbelieved. For example:

So all the punishments for disbelievers are also applicable to apostates, as the epitome of disbelief. No need for special treatment for them, outside the general punishment for disbelief.

Actually apostates are singled out for greater punishment than the general non-believer or, at least, are mentioned specifically as being especially heinous. This obviously doesn't mean that those who never accepted Islam are much better off. The Hadith likely base the idea that Allah commands the killing of apostates on the Quran.

He who disbelieves in Allah after his having believed, not he who is compelled while his heart is at rest on account of faith, but he who opens (his) breast to disbelief-- on these is the wrath of Allah, and they shall have a grievous chastisement.

— Quran 16:106

what is punishment for apostate? ?

 

[Methinx]

what is punishment for apostate? ?

Narrated 'Ikrima:
Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it, saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

No ambiguity there.

 

[skepticalbip]

Actually apostates are singled out for greater punishment than the general non-believer or, at least, are mentioned specifically as being especially heinous. This obviously doesn't mean that those who never accepted Islam are much better off. The Hadith likely base the idea that Allah commands the killing of apostates on the Quran.

He who disbelieves in Allah after his having believed, not he who is compelled while his heart is at rest on account of faith, but he who opens (his) breast to disbelief-- on these is the wrath of Allah, and they shall have a grievous chastisement.

— Quran 16:106

what is punishment for apostate? ?

See above quote from the Quran, specifically the highlighted, "he who opens (his) breast to disbelief-- on these is the wrath of Allah, and they shall have a grievous chastisement."

It seems to be up to the interpretation of the Quran by the various Muslim religious leaders. What would these leaders think a "grievous chastisement" would be? I haven't read the fatwas they issued so don't know if they specify exactly how the apostates are to be killed just that they are to be killed. From the point of these decrees, it seems obvious that the Muslim religious leaders interpret "grievous chastisement" as death at a minimum but maybe even more. Maybe you have read or heard them, you being an apologist for such things, so you should know better than I. You tell me. You have already agreed that such fatwas directing the faithful to kill apostates are issued.