Austria plans compulsory Covid vaccinations for all

Metaphor

Sjajna Zvijezda
Warning Level 1
Austria is to become the first European country to make vaccinations against Covid 19 mandatory, and will go into its fourth nationwide lockdown for at least 10 days from Monday, the chancellor, Alexander Schallenberg, has announced.

The government said it was preparing the legal groundwork for a general vaccine mandate to come into effect from 1 February, with exemptions for those unable to receive a jab on medical grounds.

The age from which people will be required to be vaccinated has not yet been determined, the government said.

Those refusing to be vaccinated are likely to face administrative fines, which can be converted into a prison sentence if the fine cannot be recovered.

...

repoman

Contributor
Would be great if it was a nasal vaccine with at least the nucleocapsid protein thrown in with the spike protein.

As Bill Gates has said

I like this comment:
We are human beings, not computers. You can’t just release buggy vaccines and then later just keep releasing updates to patch the buggy vaccines.
If these GloboConglomgerates purposefully made half assed waning vaccines that were meh with transmission, I would not at all be surprised. They just get to $ell at lot more. Most of you fuckers ten years ago used to be HIGHLY skeptical of massive corporations and now you are sucking their dicks. This is pathetic. If they got paid more for performance they would have an incentive. And where the hell is the delta vaccine? Harry Bosch Contributor Would be great if it was a nasal vaccine with at least the nucleocapsid protein thrown in with the spike protein. As Bill Gates has said I like this comment: We are human beings, not computers. You can’t just release buggy vaccines and then later just keep releasing updates to patch the buggy vaccines. If these GloboConglomgerates purposefully made half assed waning vaccines that were meh with transmission, I would not at all be surprised. They just get to$ell at lot more.

Most of you fuckers ten years ago used to be HIGHLY skeptical of massive corporations and now you are sucking their dicks. This is pathetic.

If they got paid more for performance they would have an incentive.

And where the hell is the delta vaccine?

Totally agree. Why do we continuously rely on science to make decisions. Outside of the past 3,000 years, when has science been right?

Elixir

Would be great if it was a nasal vaccine with at least the nucleocapsid protein thrown in with the spike protein.

As Bill Gates has said

I like this comment:
We are human beings, not computers. You can’t just release buggy vaccines and then later just keep releasing updates to patch the buggy vaccines.
If these GloboConglomgerates purposefully made half assed waning vaccines that were meh with transmission, I would not at all be surprised. They just get to $ell at lot more. Most of you fuckers ten years ago used to be HIGHLY skeptical of massive corporations and now you are sucking their dicks. This is pathetic. If they got paid more for performance they would have an incentive. And where the hell is the delta vaccine? Totally agree. Why do we continuously rely on science to make decisions. Outside of the past 3,000 years, when has science been right? The point is, do you think you could even survive a week without right wing conspiracy theories? Was there ever a time when people didn’t rely on them? Can you say the same about science? Elixir Made in America Most of you fuckers ten years ago used to be HIGHLY skeptical of massive corporations and now you are sucking their dicks. Hey, some of us ARE their dicks. Get over it. Jimmy Higgins Contributor Alt-Right Patrick Henry said: Give me Liberty so I can help give someone else death. Incredible what some people consider freedom these days. Body bags by the hundreds of thousands... but those people's liberty wasn't important. thebeave Veteran Member Would be great if it was a nasal vaccine with at least the nucleocapsid protein thrown in with the spike protein. As Bill Gates has said I like this comment: We are human beings, not computers. You can’t just release buggy vaccines and then later just keep releasing updates to patch the buggy vaccines. If these GloboConglomgerates purposefully made half assed waning vaccines that were meh with transmission, I would not at all be surprised. They just get to$ell at lot more.

Most of you fuckers ten years ago used to be HIGHLY skeptical of massive corporations and now you are sucking their dicks. This is pathetic.

If they got paid more for performance they would have an incentive.

And where the hell is the delta vaccine?

You're being a bit too hyperbolic, but I was thinking largely the same thing the other day. It wasn't that long ago that the left was largely against the very things that they are strongly advocating now, regarding vaccination. The pre-covid anti-vax movement was led by numbskulls like RFK, Jr and lefty Hollywood celebrities like Jenny McCarthy & Jim Carrey and their useful idiots like Oprah who gave them a platform to spew their crap. Anti-vax was also largely the domain of morons and white liberal elite enclaves in Marin County, CA as well as Oregon (in particular, Ashland). Not to mention all the constant ranting about the evils of Big Pharma and clinging to slogans like, "My Body, My Choice". And LOTS of distrust of genetic engineering and GMOs (instead embracing all things natural and organic regarding food and medicine), which is fundamental to the development of these life saving vaccines. Its like all that has gone out the window in a flash in a complete 180 degree shift. Its just all very odd.

TomC

Celestial Highness
Staff member
Its like all that has gone out the window in a flash in a complete 180 degree shift. Its just all very odd.
Without suggesting I support all that,
having a completely different opinion when information and circumstances change is more than reasonable, it's an intelligent response.
Tom

thebeave

Veteran Member
Its like all that has gone out the window in a flash in a complete 180 degree shift. Its just all very odd.
Without suggesting I support all that,
having a completely different opinion when information and circumstances change is more than reasonable, it's an intelligent response.
Tom
I agree. The change in perspective by the left about vaccination has largely been for the good. Whether it was driven by acknowledgement and acceptance of the science, I'm not so sure. Sadly, I think its at least somewhat driven by wanting to differentiate themselves from changing views by the right.

TomC

Celestial Highness
Staff member
I agree. The change in perspective by the left about vaccination has largely been for the good. Whether it was driven by acknowledgement and acceptance of the science, I'm not so sure. Sadly, I think its at least somewhat driven by wanting to differentiate themselves from changing views by the right.
This still doesn't make any sense to me. Who are these "leftists" who opposed vaccination?
Am I a leftist? I'm a straight ticket Democrat voter. I've never opposed vaccination. Quite the contrary, I've donated money to a Catholic organization that sponsors vaccination clinics for underprivileged kids in public schools.
Tom

Elixir

Would be great if it was a nasal vaccine with at least the nucleocapsid protein thrown in with the spike protein.

As Bill Gates has said

I like this comment:
We are human beings, not computers. You can’t just release buggy vaccines and then later just keep releasing updates to patch the buggy vaccines.
If these GloboConglomgerates purposefully made half assed waning vaccines that were meh with transmission, I would not at all be surprised. They just get to $ell at lot more. Most of you fuckers ten years ago used to be HIGHLY skeptical of massive corporations and now you are sucking their dicks. This is pathetic. If they got paid more for performance they would have an incentive. And where the hell is the delta vaccine? You're being a bit too hyperbolic, but I was thinking largely the same thing the other day. It wasn't that long ago that the left was largely against the very things that they are strongly advocating now, regarding vaccination. The pre-covid anti-vax movement was led by numbskulls like RFK, Jr and lefty Hollywood celebrities like Jenny McCarthy & Jim Carrey and their useful idiots like Oprah who gave them a platform to spew their crap. Anti-vax was also largely the domain of morons and white liberal elite enclaves in Marin County, CA as well as Oregon (in particular, Ashland). Not to mention all the constant ranting about the evils of Big Pharma and clinging to slogans like, "My Body, My Choice". And LOTS of distrust of genetic engineering and GMOs (instead embracing all things natural and organic regarding food and medicine), which is fundamental to the development of these life saving vaccines. Its like all that has gone out the window in a flash in a complete 180 degree shift. Its just all very odd. … funny. I don’t recall any Lib’ruls advocating for smallpox, polio, rubella et al. Even when I lived in Sausalito. Also lived in San Anselmo, but they weren’t doing the Right Wing Moron dance there either. I don’t consider Lucy in the Sky to be representative of liberalism. Bronzeage Super Moderator Staff member Bill Gates is a college drop out who made good. When did he become an authority on health issues? In the United States, the antivaxxer crowd has a lot of overlap with the reactionary Trump supporter base. As for Hollywood celebrities, that group includes Ronald Reagan and Charlton Heston. At this point in time, anyone in the US who wants a vaccine can get one. This has created a strange statistical pattern. Covid19 infections and deaths have moved out of urban centers and into rural communities. There is a direct correlation between the death rate per 100K, and the percentage of Trump's votes in the last election. This can be drawn down to individual voting precincts and the pattern holds true. As the overall death rate falls, the remaining deaths are concentrated in conservative voting districts. This may be ironic, or it maybe the thing people think is ironic, but in November of 2021, the antivaxxers and the vaccine hesitant are contributing to the deaths of their own numbers. As this pattern become more stark, among the general public, anxiety over the unvaccinated is falling. The fastest way to create apathy over a health issue is to confine it to a small group. This works much faster if the health issue begins to look life a self inflicted wound. thebeave Veteran Member Would be great if it was a nasal vaccine with at least the nucleocapsid protein thrown in with the spike protein. As Bill Gates has said I like this comment: We are human beings, not computers. You can’t just release buggy vaccines and then later just keep releasing updates to patch the buggy vaccines. If these GloboConglomgerates purposefully made half assed waning vaccines that were meh with transmission, I would not at all be surprised. They just get to$ell at lot more.

Most of you fuckers ten years ago used to be HIGHLY skeptical of massive corporations and now you are sucking their dicks. This is pathetic.

If they got paid more for performance they would have an incentive.

And where the hell is the delta vaccine?

You're being a bit too hyperbolic, but I was thinking largely the same thing the other day. It wasn't that long ago that the left was largely against the very things that they are strongly advocating now, regarding vaccination. The pre-covid anti-vax movement was led by numbskulls like RFK, Jr and lefty Hollywood celebrities like Jenny McCarthy & Jim Carrey and their useful idiots like Oprah who gave them a platform to spew their crap. Anti-vax was also largely the domain of morons and white liberal elite enclaves in Marin County, CA as well as Oregon (in particular, Ashland). Not to mention all the constant ranting about the evils of Big Pharma and clinging to slogans like, "My Body, My Choice". And LOTS of distrust of genetic engineering and GMOs (instead embracing all things natural and organic regarding food and medicine), which is fundamental to the development of these life saving vaccines. Its like all that has gone out the window in a flash in a complete 180 degree shift. Its just all very odd.

… funny. I don’t recall any Lib’ruls advocating for smallpox, polio, rubella et al.
Even when I lived in Sausalito. Also lived in San Anselmo, but they weren’t doing the Right Wing Moron dance there either.
I don’t consider Lucy in the Sky to be representative of liberalism.

Marin County (pre-covid anyway) had one of the, if not the lowest, vaccination rates in the country for just the basic vaccinations that kids get (particularly MMR), despite it being also one of the wealthiest counties. A lot of the ant-vax nuttery comes from West Marin, like Bolinas and Inverness. I have had many relatives live in that area over the years, so I know the kookiness. There was a rumor going around Bolinas that the MMR vaccine was made with monkey vomit!

TomC

Celestial Highness
Staff member
Marin County (pre-covid anyway) had one of the, if not the lowest, vaccination rates in the country for just the basic vaccinations that kids get (particularly MMR), despite it being also one of the wealthiest counties. A lot of the ant-vax nuttery comes from West Marin, like Bolinas and Inverness. I have had many relatives live in that area over the years, so I know the kookiness. There was a rumor going around Bolinas that the MMR vaccine was made with monkey vomit!
Maybe the problem is that you're looking at one, comparatively tiny, community. Most of us are talking about much larger groups, like political parties and states and countries.

I've never even heard of Bolinas. Marin Cty, just barely. I don't care what the residents get up to as much as the TeaPartiers claiming that Ivermectrin is safe and effective, but Moderna vaccination is dangerous.
Tom

Elixir

A lot of the ant-vax nuttery comes from West Marin, like Bolinas and Inverness. I have had many relatives live in that area over the years, so I know the kookiness. There was a rumor going around Bolinas that the MMR vaccine was made with monkey vomit!
I guess we should be unconcerned then. When an outpost like Bolinas (pop around 1k) is the center of something, that something is basically nothing. (Inverness is not much, if any larger).
Bolinas is also the seaweed Capitol of West Marin.
Lovely place though - I always enjoyed it.

Wondering about the monkey vomit rumor “going around”. How long does it take a rumor to circulate among a thousand people all living within a few hundred yards of each other? Like… three days?

laughing dog

Contributor
So a conservative government in a country that embraced Nazis institutes a covid vaccination mandate. Why is this noteworthy?

repoman

Contributor
I want better vaccines and that makes me antivax?

I want to make sure that Pfizer and the rest face competition from better vaccines (not relying on market position and regulatory capture) or at least an impetus to make them or buy out a startup with a good one for stopping transmission.

Rhea

Cyborg with a Tiara
Staff member
Would be great if it was a nasal vaccine with at least the nucleocapsid protein thrown in with the spike protein.

As Bill Gates has said

I like this comment:
We are human beings, not computers. You can’t just release buggy vaccines and then later just keep releasing updates to patch the buggy vaccines.
If these GloboConglomgerates purposefully made half assed waning vaccines that were meh with transmission, I would not at all be surprised. They just get to \$ell at lot more.

Most of you fuckers ten years ago used to be HIGHLY skeptical of massive corporations and now you are sucking their dicks. This is pathetic.

If they got paid more for performance they would have an incentive.

And where the hell is the delta vaccine?

You're being a bit too hyperbolic, but I was thinking largely the same thing the other day. It wasn't that long ago that the left was largely against the very things that they are strongly advocating now, regarding vaccination. The pre-covid anti-vax movement was led by numbskulls like RFK, Jr and lefty Hollywood celebrities like Jenny McCarthy & Jim Carrey and their useful idiots like Oprah who gave them a platform to spew their crap. Anti-vax was also largely the domain of morons and white liberal elite enclaves in Marin County, CA as well as Oregon (in particular, Ashland). Not to mention all the constant ranting about the evils of Big Pharma and clinging to slogans like, "My Body, My Choice". And LOTS of distrust of genetic engineering and GMOs (instead embracing all things natural and organic regarding food and medicine), which is fundamental to the development of these life saving vaccines. Its like all that has gone out the window in a flash in a complete 180 degree shift. Its just all very odd.

Ooooh. Scary

It looks like you are taking two wonko celebrities and claiming all people on the left politically are identical to them. Would you like help with that?

TomC

Celestial Highness
Staff member
I want better vaccines and that makes me antivax?
It does if you're refusing what is available and capable of reaching herd immunity for everyone's benefit, and continuing to spread C19 until a vaccine you deem "better" comes along.
Tom

Rhea

Cyborg with a Tiara
Staff member
I want better vaccines and that makes me antivax?
It does if you're refusing what is available and capable of reaching herd immunity for everyone's benefit, and continuing to spread C19 until a vaccine you deem "better" comes along.
Tom
Pretty sure he has stated previously that he is fully vaxxed - looking for additional routes for the rest of the population.

TomC

Celestial Highness
Staff member
I want better vaccines and that makes me antivax?
It does if you're refusing what is available and capable of reaching herd immunity for everyone's benefit, and continuing to spread C19 until a vaccine you deem "better" comes along.
Tom
Pretty sure he has stated previously that he is fully vaxxed - looking for additional routes for the rest of the population.
I guess my post sounded more personal than I intended.
I'm surrounded by antivaxxers. I get more than a little testy with vague "But what if it is..." B.S. That kind of nonsense.
Tom

Rhea

Cyborg with a Tiara
Staff member
I hear you on that. My county *just* topped 50% vaxxed.

Metaphor

Sjajna Zvijezda
Warning Level 1
So a conservative government in a country that embraced Nazis institutes a covid vaccination mandate. Why is this noteworthy?
If you don't find it noteworthy, why did you come into the thread and post a response? I think it's a disturbing, authoritarian development and is a degradation of the civil liberties of Austria's people, and is another worrying development in State violence in the name of Covid.

laughing dog

Contributor
So a conservative government in a country that embraced Nazis institutes a covid vaccination mandate. Why is this noteworthy?
If you don't find it noteworthy, why did you come into the thread and post a response?
Probably for the same readon you felt the need to post it.
Metaphor said
I think it's a disturbing, authoritarian development and is a degradation of the civil liberties of Austria's people.

Given their historical lackadaisical attitude towards civil liberties, it is not surprising that they apparently disagree. More importantly, I didn’t know infecting others with a communicable fisease was a fundamental civil liberty that cannot be briached.

TomC

Celestial Highness
Staff member
I hear you on that. My county *just* topped 50% vaxxed.
What can I say?
I live in Trumpistan, Indiana. I live in a low vaccination rate area of a low vaccination rate state. I get frustrated.

It's like the people who are sure that there's plenty of evidence for Jesus's Resurrection. But speciation through natural selection hasn't really reached their standards for evidence.
Tom

Metaphor

Sjajna Zvijezda
Warning Level 1
So a conservative government in a country that embraced Nazis institutes a covid vaccination mandate. Why is this noteworthy?
If you don't find it noteworthy, why did you come into the thread and post a response?
Probably for the same readon you felt the need to post it.
I posted it because it's a disturbing development. But you don't think it's a disturbing development. So the reasons cannot possibly be the same.

Metaphor
I think it's a disturbing, authoritarian development and is a degradation of the civil liberties of Austria's people.
Given their historical lackadaisical attitude towards civil liberties, it is not surprising that they apparently disagree. More importantly, I didn’t know infecting others with a communicable fisease was a fundamental civil liberty that cannot be briached.
I think you'll find that the individuals that comprised the Austrian government in the 1930s are dead - unless you think a country's character and spirit cannot move on after nearly a century?

The freedom to 'infect others with a communicable disease' is not a civil liberty. The freedom to not have your government force a medical procedure on her adult citizens is--or, at least, should be.

TomC

Celestial Highness
Staff member
The freedom to 'infect others with a communicable disease' is not a civil liberty. The freedom to not have your government force a medical procedure
Here in the modern world more and more freedoms come into conflict with other freedoms. That's why governments have to decide which freedoms to prioritize. You can't have everything.

This is a huge part of the reason that I get so angry with irrational antivaxxers! They are who is infringing on our freedoms, and causing huge threats to even more freedoms. They are forcing governments to take control. And governments don't give up that power easily.

Antivaxxers are who are the threat to personal freedom. Not us sensible folks.
Tom

Metaphor

Sjajna Zvijezda
Warning Level 1
Here in the modern world more and more freedoms come into conflict with other freedoms. That's why governments have to decide which freedoms to prioritize. You can't have everything.

This is a huge part of the reason that I get so angry with irrational antivaxxers! They are who is infringing on our freedoms, and causing huge threats to even more freedoms. They are forcing governments to take control. And governments don't give up that power easily.

Antivaxxers are who are the threat to personal freedom. Not us sensible folks.
Tom
Governments who believe they have the right to force medical procedures on their populations--and the populace that supports it (if they do - I don't know if a majority of Austrians support it)--are the problem.

But honestly, I'm not surprised that members of this board are either indifferent to this illiberal development or actively support it. The final stop on this journey might be forcible injection of adults with the vaccine. One year ago, I'd have called that scenario unthinkable. Now, it is literally the only violation left to formulate.

TomC

Celestial Highness
Staff member
Governments who believe they have the right to force medical procedures on their populations--and the populace that supports it--are the problem.

To what problem are you referring? The devastating impact C19 has on the economy? Social interactions? What problem are you referring to, exactly?

Do you think that arresting and prosecuting alcohol impaired drivers is a problem? If not, why not? It's an infringement on our freedoms and rights.
Tom

laughing dog

Contributor
So a conservative government in a country that embraced Nazis institutes a covid vaccination mandate. Why is this noteworthy?
If you don't find it noteworthy, why did you come into the thread and post a response?
Probably for the same readon you felt the need to post it.
I posted it because it's a disturbing development. But you don't think it's a disturbing development. So the reasons cannot possibly be the same.
You felt the need to express your opinion on this action, as did I. So, once again, you are mistaken.
Metaphor
I think it's a disturbing, authoritarian development and is a degradation of the civil liberties of Austria's people.
Given their historical lackadaisical attitude towards civil liberties, it is not surprising that they apparently disagree. More importantly, I didn’t know infecting others with a communicable fisease was a fundamental civil liberty that cannot be briached.
I think you'll find that the individuals that comprised the Austrian government in the 1930s are dead - unless you think a country's character and spirit cannot move on after nearly a century?

The freedom to 'infect others with a communicable disease' is not a civil liberty. The freedom to not have your government force a medical procedure on her adult citizens is--or, at least, should be.
In this situation, I suspect the Austrian government came to the conclusion that mandatory vaccination is a better outcome than upholding your view of a civil liberty.

It is entirely possible that the Austrian government has a better understanding of their situation and their citizenry's view of these matters and applied a rule of reason instead of a some kneejerk principle.

Metaphor

Sjajna Zvijezda
Warning Level 1
To what problem are you referring? The devastating impact C19 has on the economy? Social interactions? What problem are you referring to, exactly?
The problem of governments mandating medical procedures on their adult citizens.

Do you think that arresting and prosecuting alcohol impaired drivers is a problem? If not, why not? It's an infringement on our freedoms and rights.
Tom

What a strange idea - that preventing somebody from driving while drunk is equivalent to or analogous to forcing medical procedures on people.

Metaphor

Sjajna Zvijezda
Warning Level 1
You felt the need to express your opinion on this action, as did I. So, once again, you are mistaken.
No: you felt your need to express your opinion on my OP.
In this situation, I suspect the Austrian government came to the conclusion that mandatory vaccination is a better outcome than upholding your view of a civil liberty.
You don't say.
It is entirely possible that the Austrian government has a better understanding of their situation and their citizenry's view of these matters and applied a rule of reason instead of a some kneejerk principle.
It is entirely possible that the Austrian government (and governments all over the world) has been gripped by the same fever that swept the US after 9/11 and resulted in the Patriot Act. The Patriot Act, if my memory serves me correctly, was widely condemned by the left back then, for its valuing of safety over liberty.

"Principled" used to be laudatory. Now it's a pejorative. Times really have changed.

TomC

Celestial Highness
Staff member
The problem of governments mandating medical procedures on their adult citizens.
What about the problems caused by letting people run amok, spreading disease? Damaging the economy, our social lives, our health care system...

What about that? Why is trashing my concerns "freedom", but requiring people to get a couple of damn shots is an infringement on their dumbass "freedom"?

They do have another option. Stay home. Don't leave your safe place.
Apparently, Austria doesn't trust their citizens to maintain order and be responsible with their freedom. Here in the USA things aren't any better.
Tom

laughing dog

Contributor
You felt the need to express your opinion on this action, as did I. So, once again, you are mistaken.
No: you felt your need to express your opinion on my OP.
You are a terrible mind-reader. You are mistaken.
In this situation, I suspect the Austrian government came to the conclusion that mandatory vaccination is a better outcome than upholding your view of a civil liberty.
You don't say.
It is entirely possible that the Austrian government has a better understanding of their situation and their citizenry's view of these matters and applied a rule of reason instead of a some kneejerk principle.
It is entirely possible that the Austrian government (and governments all over the world) has been gripped by the same fever that swept the US after 9/11 and resulted in the Patriot Act. The Patriot Act, if my memory serves me correctly, was widely condemned by the left back then, for its valuing of safety over liberty.
And you feel this "whataboutism" is relevant because .......?
"Principled" used to be laudatory. Now it's a pejorative. Times really have changed.
No one used the term "Principled" as a pejorative, so what do you think you are responding to?

Metaphor

Sjajna Zvijezda
Warning Level 1
What about the problems caused by letting people run amok, spreading disease? Damaging the economy, our social lives, our health care system...
What about them? You appear to be under the impression that unvaccinated=diseased. It does not.
What about that? Why is trashing my concerns "freedom", but requiring people to get a couple of damn shots is an infringement on their dumbass "freedom"?
I can see this conversation is not going to be productive if you think forcing a medical procedure on an adult is a 'dumbass' freedom.
They do have another option. Stay home. Don't leave your safe place.
Austrians don't have even that option. It's 'you are not even allowed to stay at home, you must get vaxxed'.
Apparently, Austria doesn't trust their citizens to maintain order and be responsible with their freedom. Here in the USA things aren't any better.
Tom
Even the article Guardian acknowledged that mandatory vaccinations was previously unthinkable. It seems not only is it now thinkable, if the responses on this board are anything to go by, it is unremarkable and even a good idea.

Metaphor

Sjajna Zvijezda
Warning Level 1
You are a terrible mind-reader. You are mistaken.
And you feel this "whataboutism" is relevant because .......?
I don't feel a whataboutism is relevant. I think that this wholesale embrace of government authoritarianism is a predictable response in times of crisis. Back then, it was about terrorism. This time, it's about COVID.
No one used the term "Principled" as a pejorative, so what do you think you are responding to?
I'm responding to you, when you called implementing a principle "kneejerk".

laughing dog

Contributor
You are a terrible mind-reader. You are mistaken.
The only way to know intent is to read minds. You came to the wrong conclusion.
And you feel this "whataboutism" is relevant because .......?
I don't feel a whataboutism is relevant. I think that this wholesale embrace of government authoritarianism is a predictable response in times of crisis.
If you don't think a whataboutism is relevant, then why bring one up?
No one used the term "Principled" as a pejorative, so what do you think you are responding to?
I'm responding to you, when you called implementing a principle "kneejerk".
Your response is based on a straw man driven by a combination of a lack of reading comprehension and reasoning. People of principle are perfectly capable of apply the principle of "the rule of reason:" to their ethics or principles thereby eschewing kneejerk defenses of a misplaced application of a principle.

Metaphor

Sjajna Zvijezda
Warning Level 1
The only way to know intent is to read minds. You came to the wrong conclusion.
Yet you made the claim we had the same intent in writing on this thread in post #30. Or are you retracting that claim?
If you don't think a whataboutism is relevant, then why bring one up?
I didn't.
Your response is based on a straw man driven by a combination of a lack of reading comprehension and reasoning. People of principle are perfectly capable of apply the principle of "the rule of reason:" to their ethics or principles thereby eschewing kneejerk defenses of a misplaced application of a principle.
I have never heard of "the rule of reason", and when I google it, I get information about US antitrust law. I don't think that's what you meant, so I assume this is language you have invented in this post, and you expected me to comprehend the meaning without explanation. I don't think that's fair.

Do you think it is reasonable for the Austrian government to fine (and possibly imprison) its citizens for not getting a Covid vaccine?

laughing dog

Contributor
The only way to know intent is to read minds. You came to the wrong conclusion.
Yet you made the claim we had the same intent in writing on this thread in post #30. Or are you retracting that claim?
If you don't think a whataboutism is relevant, then why bring one up?
I didn't.
Of course you did - you brought up the Patriot Act and the left's response to it. Really, if you are not going to pay attention to your own content, why should anyone else?
Your response is based on a straw man driven by a combination of a lack of reading comprehension and reasoning. People of principle are perfectly capable of apply the principle of "the rule of reason:" to their ethics or principles thereby eschewing kneejerk defenses of a misplaced application of a principle.
I have never heard of "the rule of reason", and when I google it, I get information about US antitrust law. I don't think that's what you meant, so I assume this is language you have invented in this post, and you expected me to comprehend the meaning without explanation. I don't think that's fair.
I find it out that you feel expecting people to understand the English language is unfair. While the "rule of reason" has a specific application and history to US antitrust law, it is also a general principle that means rules or principles are subject to the use of reason depending on the facts of the situation.
Do you think it is reasonable for the Austrian government to fine (and possibly imprison) its citizens for not getting a Covid vaccine?
I think it is reasonable for any gov't to enforce a legal mandate in a reasonable and rational manner. I would expect the enforcement mechanism in this case is a forced vaccination.

Metaphor

Sjajna Zvijezda
Warning Level 1
Of course you did - you brought up the Patriot Act and the left's response to it. Really, if you are not going to pay attention to your own content, why should anyone else?
Yes, I brought up the Patriot Act. No, it wasn't a 'whataboutism'. It was to illustrate that people accept authoritarian actions because of their fear.
it is also a general principle that means rules or principles are subject to the use of reason depending on the facts of the situation.
I've never heard it used like that, or even heard the phrase at all before today. Indeed, my further google searches uncovers only its use as a test of antitrust law. So yes, I do feel it is unfair of you to expect me to understand a phrase that you either made up with a definition peculiar to you, or is not in common use in the US or anywhere else in the English-speaking world, and that you mock me for failing to understand.
I think it is reasonable for any gov't to enforce a legal mandate in a reasonable and rational manner. I would expect the enforcement mechanism in this case is a forced vaccination.
That does seem to me to be the next logical step: physically enforced vaccinations. I'm alarmed, however, that for some people, the ease with which this idea has gone from unthinkable to desirable.

laughing dog

Contributor
The only way to know intent is to read minds. You came to the wrong conclusion.
Yet you made the claim we had the same intent in writing on this thread in post #30. Or are you retracting that claim?
If you don't think a whataboutism is relevant, then why bring one up?
I didn't.
Of course you did - you brought up the Patriot Act and the left's response to it. Really, if you are not going to pay attention to your own content, why should anyone else?
Your response is based on a straw man driven by a combination of a lack of reading comprehension and reasoning. People of principle are perfectly capable of apply the principle of "the rule of reason:" to their ethics or principles thereby eschewing kneejerk defenses of a misplaced application of a principle.
I have never heard of "the rule of reason", and when I google it, I get information about US antitrust law. I don't think that's what you meant, so I assume this is language you have invented in this post, and you expected me to comprehend the meaning without explanation. I don't think that's fair.
I find it out that you feel expecting people to understand the English language is unfair. While the "rule of reason" has a specific application and history to US antitrust law, it is also a general principle that means rules or principles are subject to the use of reason depending on the facts of the situation.
Do you think it is reasonable for the Austrian government to fine (and possibly imprison) its citizens for not getting a Covid vaccine?
I think it is reasonable for any gov't to enforce a legal mandate in a reasonable and rational manner. I would expect the enforcement mechanism in this case is a forced vaccination.
Of course you did - you brought up the Patriot Act and the left's response to it. Really, if you are not going to pay attention to your own content, why should anyone else?
Yes, I brought up the Patriot Act. No, it wasn't a 'whataboutism'. It was to illustrate that people accept authoritarian actions because of their fear.
A "whataboutism" is used to illustrate a point. . The Patriot Act ha many diverse provisions and purposes. The proposed vaccine mandate does not.
it is also a general principle that means rules or principles are subject to the use of reason depending on the facts of the situation.
I've never heard it used like that, or even heard the phrase at all before today. Indeed, my further google searches uncovers only its use as a test of antitrust law. So yes, I do feel it is unfair of you to expect me to understand a phrase that you either made up with a definition peculiar to you, or is not in common use in the US or anywhere else in the English-speaking world, and that you mock me for failing to understand.
No one mocked you. Instead of whining about "unfairness", a simple question would have sufficed. Instead you persist in whining.
I think it is reasonable for any gov't to enforce a legal mandate in a reasonable and rational manner. I would expect the enforcement mechanism in this case is a forced vaccination.
That does seem to me to be the next logical step: physically enforced vaccinations. I'm alarmed, however, that for some people, the ease with which this idea has gone from unthinkable to desirable.
History indicates you alarm very easily.

Metaphor

Sjajna Zvijezda
Warning Level 1
A "whataboutism" is used to illustrate a point. . The Patriot Act ha many diverse provisions and purposes. The proposed vaccine mandate does not.
My point: fear makes people accept authoritarian actions that they would not accept in ordinary times. The Patriot Act was one such example, and compulsory covid vaccinations are another.
No one mocked you. Instead of whining about "unfairness", a simple question would have sufficed. Instead you persist in whining.
Yes, you mocked me. And now, I'm 'whining', because you laid the fault at my reading comprehension instead of your private and peculiar denotation of a phrase already in use elsewhere.
History indicates you alarm very easily.
I feel as if I should be more suspicious and not less, frankly. When Toni proposed indefinite house arrest for the unvaccinated, I recall clarifying that even the most ardent supporters of a vaccine mandate were not proposing physically enforced vaccinations.

And, all it took was a month or two, and people are supporting that, too.

laughing dog

Contributor
A "whataboutism" is used to illustrate a point. . The Patriot Act ha many diverse provisions and purposes. The proposed vaccine mandate does not.
My point: fear makes people accept authoritarian actions that they would not accept in ordinary times. The Patriot Act was one such example, and compulsory covid vaccinations are another.
You did not simply use it as an example of fear-driven acceptance of authoritarianism. You also brought in the "left"s reaction to the Patriot Act.

Futhermore, covid-19 is an actual and well-define threat to the well-being of a country. Taking precautions is rational and need not be based on fear. On the other hand "Terrorism" is not a well-defined threat nor necessarily an actual one. o your example is a very poor one.
No one mocked you. Instead of whining about "unfairness", a simple question would have sufficed. Instead you persist in whining.
Yes, you mocked me. And now, I'm 'whining', because you laid the fault at my reading comprehension instead of your private and peculiar denotation of a phrase already in use elsewhere.
I did not mock you because I know what my intent was. I am not responsible for hypersensitivity to imaged criticism or your over-reaction to a post.

History indicates you alarm very easily.
I feel as if I should be more suspicious and not less, frankly. When Toni proposed indefinite house arrest for the unvaccinated, I recall clarifying that even the most ardent supporters of a vaccine mandate were not proposing physically enforced vaccinations.
And, all it took was a month or two, and people are supporting that, too.
I am pretty sure that there were people supporting vaccine mandates back then as well. Extraordinary situations sometimes require extraordinary measures.

Metaphor

Sjajna Zvijezda
Warning Level 1
You did not simply use it as an example of fear-driven acceptance of authoritarianism. You also brought in the "left"s reaction to the Patriot Act.
Yes. Parts of the left opposed it, and they argued that its acceptance was driven by fear.

Futhermore, covid-19 is an actual and well-define threat to the well-being of a country. Taking precautions is rational and need not be based on fear. On the other hand "Terrorism" is not a well-defined threat nor necessarily an actual one. o your example is a very poor one.
If you do not see fear as one of the drivers of government policies around COVID--policies that began, in early 2020, with encouraging certain activities, but now include locking down entire countries and forcing vaccinations on adults, all I can say is we clearly have very different perceptions of the world.
It isn't a 'whataboutism'. Not every reference to a past event is a 'whataboutism'. I was illustrating my own naivete.
I am pretty sure that there were people supporting vaccine mandates back then as well. Extraordinary situations sometimes require extraordinary measures.
I am sure there are some people who would support anything. That isn't the point. The point is the number of people who would not have considered forced vaccinations under any circumstances in 2020 are now not only indifferent to the possibility, some are expressing support for it.

laughing dog

Contributor
You did not simply use it as an example of fear-driven acceptance of authoritarianism. You also brought in the "left"s reaction to the Patriot Act.
Yes. Parts of the left opposed it, and they argued that its acceptance was driven by fear.

Futhermore, covid-19 is an actual and well-define threat to the well-being of a country. Taking precautions is rational and need not be based on fear. On the other hand "Terrorism" is not a well-defined threat nor necessarily an actual one. o your example is a very poor one.
If you do not see fear as one of the drivers of government policies around COVID--policies that began, in early 2020, with encouraging certain activities, but now include locking down entire countries and forcing vaccinations on adults, all I can say is we clearly have very different perceptions of the world.
We do have different perceptions of the world. For some reason, you do not perceive that a country can reasonably think that COVID 19 is a sufficient threat to the public well-being that it justifies taking such actions.
It isn't a 'whataboutism'. Not every reference to a past event is a 'whataboutism'. I was illustrating my own naivete.
I am pretty sure that there were people supporting vaccine mandates back then as well. Extraordinary situations sometimes require extraordinary measures.
I am sure there are some people who would support anything. That isn't the point. The point is the number of people who would not have considered forced vaccinations under any circumstances in 2020 are now not only indifferent to the possibility, some are expressing support for it.
Ah, a hand-waved suppositions masquerading as analysis.

Metaphor

Sjajna Zvijezda
Warning Level 1
You use 'whataboutism' as if it invalidates the argument, as if uttering this word addresses the content. It doesn't.
Ah, a hand-waved suppositions masquerading as analysis.
There is no 'hand-waving'. It is barely even 'analysis'. It is a straightforward recounting of events. There has been a noticeable increase in the authoritarian policies that governments are imposing on their people in response to COVID.

Loony Running The Asylum
Staff member
The only way to know intent is to read minds. You came to the wrong conclusion.
Yet you made the claim we had the same intent in writing on this thread in post #30. Or are you retracting that claim?
If you don't think a whataboutism is relevant, then why bring one up?
I didn't.
Of course you did - you brought up the Patriot Act and the left's response to it. Really, if you are not going to pay attention to your own content, why should anyone else?
Your response is based on a straw man driven by a combination of a lack of reading comprehension and reasoning. People of principle are perfectly capable of apply the principle of "the rule of reason:" to their ethics or principles thereby eschewing kneejerk defenses of a misplaced application of a principle.
I have never heard of "the rule of reason", and when I google it, I get information about US antitrust law. I don't think that's what you meant, so I assume this is language you have invented in this post, and you expected me to comprehend the meaning without explanation. I don't think that's fair.
I find it out that you feel expecting people to understand the English language is unfair. While the "rule of reason" has a specific application and history to US antitrust law, it is also a general principle that means rules or principles are subject to the use of reason depending on the facts of the situation.
Do you think it is reasonable for the Austrian government to fine (and possibly imprison) its citizens for not getting a Covid vaccine?
I think it is reasonable for any gov't to enforce a legal mandate in a reasonable and rational manner. I would expect the enforcement mechanism in this case is a forced vaccination.
Of course you did - you brought up the Patriot Act and the left's response to it. Really, if you are not going to pay attention to your own content, why should anyone else?
Yes, I brought up the Patriot Act. No, it wasn't a 'whataboutism'. It was to illustrate that people accept authoritarian actions because of their fear.
A "whataboutism" is used to illustrate a point. . The Patriot Act ha many diverse provisions and purposes. The proposed vaccine mandate does not.
it is also a general principle that means rules or principles are subject to the use of reason depending on the facts of the situation.
I've never heard it used like that, or even heard the phrase at all before today. Indeed, my further google searches uncovers only its use as a test of antitrust law. So yes, I do feel it is unfair of you to expect me to understand a phrase that you either made up with a definition peculiar to you, or is not in common use in the US or anywhere else in the English-speaking world, and that you mock me for failing to understand.
No one mocked you. Instead of whining about "unfairness", a simple question would have sufficed. Instead you persist in whining.
I think it is reasonable for any gov't to enforce a legal mandate in a reasonable and rational manner. I would expect the enforcement mechanism in this case is a forced vaccination.
That does seem to me to be the next logical step: physically enforced vaccinations. I'm alarmed, however, that for some people, the ease with which this idea has gone from unthinkable to desirable.
History indicates you alarm very easily.
Don't you mean he's woke?

laughing dog

Contributor
You use 'whataboutism' as if it invalidates the argument, as if uttering this word addresses the content. It doesn't.
Wrong on all counts:
Ah, a hand-waved suppositions masquerading as analysis.
There is no 'hand-waving'. It is barely even 'analysis'. It is a straightforward recounting of events. There has been a noticeable increase in the authoritarian policies that governments are imposing on their people in response to COVID.
It is your hand-waved interpretation . You cannot begin to name all those people with your imputed thoughts.

Metaphor

Sjajna Zvijezda
Warning Level 1
It is your hand-waved interpretation . You cannot begin to name all those people with your imputed thoughts.
There has been a noticeable increase in the authoritarian policies that governments are imposing on their people in response to COVID. That is not an interpretation of the facts. It is a fact.

Your last sentence is meaningless. That authoritarian policies are becoming more common does not impute a thought to anybody.

laughing dog

Contributor
It is your hand-waved interpretation . You cannot begin to name all those people with your imputed thoughts.
There has been a noticeable increase in the authoritarian policies that governments are imposing on their people in response to COVID. That is not an interpretation of the facts. It is a fact.
Your sentence does not address my point that " You cannot begin to name all those people with your imputed thoughts."
Your last sentence is meaningless. That authoritarian policies are becoming more common does not impute a thought to anybody.
As usual you are mistaken. The sentence has a clean meaning which you chose to ignore.

You wrote "The point is the number of people who would not have considered forced vaccinations under any circumstances in 2020 are now not only indifferent to the possibility, some are expressing support for it." You have produced no evidence whatsoever to support your claim. Moreover, you can have no idea what people considered in 2020 let alone produce a number. It is a perfect example of a hand-waved claim.

I get that vaccine mandate upsets your values. There is no need to create "truthiness" to support your concerns. The gov't of Austria believes it needs to institute a vaccine mandate because it is more important to protect its citizens and to prevent its health care system from being over-whelmed than to preserve the choice to vaccinate or not of its citizens. You disagree with that policy.