Autistic girls seeking answers ‘are seizing on sex change’

Metaphor

Sjajna Zvijezda
A summary of the evidence presented in the Keira Bell case from the UK.

A global expert on autism has warned in newly released legal papers that girls who are autistic or anorexic appear more likely to say they want to become boys.

The evidence by Professor Christopher Gillberg was given in a High Court case that led to a landmark ruling last month saying children under 16 were unlikely to be able to give informed consent to undergo treatment with “experimental” puberty-blocking drugs, which almost always leads to taking cross-sex hormones to change their bodies.

...

Gillberg, a psychiatrist at Gothenburg University in Sweden who holds posts at several universities including Glasgow, is reviewing research into what happens to children who receive treatment for gender dysphoria. The study has not yet been published.

He told the High Court in a written statement that research showed that, left alone, the condition usually resolved itself, and that as girls grew up they accepted that they wanted to live as women. Gillberg said that in 45 years of treating autistic children, he saw few cases of gender confusion until 2013. Since then there had been a worldwide explosion in the number of children saying they wanted to change sex. In Sweden, as in the UK, he said, most were girls who wanted to be boys.

Research showed that teenagers with autism or anorexia as well as those who had endured difficult childhoods were more likely to say they wanted to change sex. One paper published last year suggested autism spectrum disorders had “a prevalence of 6%-26% in transgender populations, higher than the general population”.

Gillberg said teenagers were finding online transgender sites that suggested their problems would be solved if they changed sex. Autistic teenagers, he said, were particularly vulnerable to seizing on a single answer “to the lifelong identity problems they have suffered”.
“Thousands of adolescents are being offered ‘treatment’ with puberty blockers, sex-contrary hormones, and then, finally for some, with a variety of surgical procedures. In the UK as in Sweden, this is in spite of the non-existent research evidence that these treatments are of any long-term benefit to the young people in question,” he said.
IQ might be damaged by puberty blockers, he added, and effects such as a deeper voice and facial hair, as well as possible infertility in girls taking the drugs, were irreversible.

Gillberg said there was “growing anecdotal evidence that many would regret their decision to undergo the biological sex change”. Doctors should tell families that they were “dealing with a live experiment on adolescents and children”.

“Adolescence can be a particularly turbulent time when young people often make reckless decisions they later regret. Young people with autism and young people with anorexia nervosa are particularly vulnerable,” he said.

...

The number of referrals to the Tavistock’s gender service has risen sharply in recent years. In 2009, 97 children were referred. In 2018 that number was 2,519. Most of the children being prescribed puberty blockers from the clinic are girls. In 2011 the gender split was roughly 50-50 between girls and boys but by 2019 the split had changed so that 76% were girls.
Professor Sophie Scott, director of UCL’s Institute for Cognitive Neuroscience, told the court that “puberty blockers have profound effects on the developing body, and as part of the changes seen in adolescence involve hormonal effects on brain function, the impact of these drugs on the brain maturation are likely to be deleterious”. She said she was “concerned that the current treatment regime is exposing young people to significant risk of harm. The greater susceptibility to peer pressure in those under 18 may make them especially vulnerable to risk-taking, and this may well be enhanced by social media, where actions can be encouraged without any responsibility for outcomes.”

...

Levine also said that black and Asian children, adopted children, girls and autistic youngsters were more likely to be diagnosed as trans in America. “Contrary to trans persons’ hopes that medicine and society can fulfil their aspiration to become a complete man or woman, this is not biologically attainable ... It is a rare gender-dysphoric young person who has no associated psychiatric diagnosis or symptoms suggesting one,” he said.

...

John Whitehall, professor of paediatrics at Western Sydney University in Australia, another expert witness, said that information given to families attending the Tavistock clinic “does not appear to share with confused children and their parents and carers the statistical assurance that almost all confused children will revert to an identity congruent with chromosomes through puberty, that ‘puberty blockers’ and cross-sex hormones have structural effects on the brain, and the warning that the rate of suicide in adults is significantly higher after transgendering.”

repoman

Contributor
So in the same way that many cis people can't understand how someone can be transgender I wonder if there are mentally healthy transgender people who can't imagine that a mental disorder could lead to obsession about being transgender or non binary and so on.

Let's say that mentally healthy transgender people have a pinpoint section of the brain that relates to experience of physical body gender, but the rest of their brain is ho hum normal. Does this mean that it is impossible for other people to have an obsession about gender roles, orientation, fitting in, puberty and combined with the hyperfocus that autism and Aspergers can bring on to see their gender as an answer?

There are lots of teenagers on Tumblr who are just being teens who have rants about this.

Do these kids exercise, play a sport, play in a band, volunteer? This is the new version of goth and emo. And yeah I feel lucky that I just listened to The Smiths and The Cure and didn't have this social media around then.

The question is are they only at base really genderqueer and so on and face mistreatment from that ---- or are they lonely, not confident in general and is this gender stuff is a way to get attention and status and a reason for why they feel bad and worthless?

Politesse

Lux Aeterna
If adopting a fluid gender helps resolve their anxiety, how is it any of your business? Keep your hands in your own fucking pants. Just because someone is autistic doesn't give you the right to tell them how to handle their private matters. Fucking genital police...

Elixir

Gender dysphoria is but one type of dysphoria.
Not nearly so dangerous to others as the moral dysphoria and resulting tolerance for cognitive dissonance that afflicts right wing hypocrites.

repoman

Contributor
If adopting a fluid gender helps resolve their anxiety, how is it any of your business? Keep your hands in your own fucking pants. Just because someone is autistic doesn't give you the right to tell them how to handle their private matters. Fucking genital police...

Is it a long term solution to the problem or just kicking the can down the road?

Loony Running The Asylum
Staff member
If adopting a fluid gender helps resolve their anxiety, how is it any of your business? Keep your hands in your own fucking pants. Just because someone is autistic doesn't give you the right to tell them how to handle their private matters. Fucking genital police...

Is it a long term solution to the problem or just kicking the can down the road?

That's for them to say, not you.

Politesse

Lux Aeterna
If adopting a fluid gender helps resolve their anxiety, how is it any of your business? Keep your hands in your own fucking pants. Just because someone is autistic doesn't give you the right to tell them how to handle their private matters. Fucking genital police...

Is it a long term solution to the problem or just kicking the can down the road?

None of your goddamn business, that's for them and their therapist to discuss.

repoman

Contributor
If adopting a fluid gender helps resolve their anxiety, how is it any of your business? Keep your hands in your own fucking pants. Just because someone is autistic doesn't give you the right to tell them how to handle their private matters. Fucking genital police...

Is it a long term solution to the problem or just kicking the can down the road?

None of your goddamn business, that's for them and their therapist to discuss.

Why not just deplatform me then?

repoman

Contributor
This is an interesting counterpount to the OP by a non autistic transgender about the relation of trans and autism. Raises a lot of good points to mull over

Especially about the therapy that trans undergo (and cis do not) uncovers autism at higher rates making a discovery bias.

J842P

Veteran Member
If adopting a fluid gender helps resolve their anxiety, how is it any of your business? Keep your hands in your own fucking pants. Just because someone is autistic doesn't give you the right to tell them how to handle their private matters. Fucking genital police...

Is it a long term solution to the problem or just kicking the can down the road?

None of your goddamn business, that's for them and their therapist to discuss.

Well, this is a total non-response. I understand you don't want to discuss these issues critically, because that would be anathema to your ideology. But others might.

For example, you ask, "If adopting a fluid gender helps resolve their anxiety, how is it any of your business?". Well, how do you know it helps resolve their anxiety?

repoman

Contributor
None of your goddamn business, that's for them and their therapist to discuss.

Well, this is a total non-response. I understand you don't want to discuss these issues critically, because that would be anathema to your ideology. But others might.

For example, you ask, "If adopting a fluid gender helps resolve their anxiety, how is it any of your business?". Well, how do you know it helps resolve their anxiety?

Going to the root, anxiety happens at all stages of life but adolescent anxiety can be really brutal. Is anxiety fueling "fleeing to being trans" or is a natural state of the teens being trans/nonbinary/genderqueer just another source of anxiety? Are they fleeing the treatment that they see adult and teen females get from males? Men can be predatory assholes and porn is part of the fuel for that.

Metaphor, what do you think about the predatory sexual behavior of men in general? What about translating that into how women and not gay men would feel about it.

The Tik-Tok cringe video is about these teens venting about constantly being asked questions about themselves and their gender, it is useful to see I think. Maybe it is a rorschach test though and will reinforce whatever the viewer wants to see.

laughing dog

Contributor
Physically changing one's sex is an important and irreversible (? or extremely difficult to reverse) process. So it is vital that these children and their parents are extremely well-informed of the benefits and costs of such a process. It seems to me that the OP is trying to bring up that there may be more to the decision-making process that needs to be addressed, albeit in a ham-handed fashion.

This does not mean anyone is trying to get in anyone's face about the decision.

ruby sparks

Contributor
Going to the root, anxiety happens at all stages of life but adolescent anxiety can be really brutal. Is anxiety fueling "fleeing to being trans" or is a natural state of the teens being trans/nonbinary/genderqueer just another source of anxiety?

I read that almost as many adults as non-adults identify as transgender, so it doesn't seem to be just a teen anxiety thing?

https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/publications/age-trans-individuals-us/

I don't know much about this, but I would guess that for some young people, there might be factors that could include confusion, or anxiety, or other things, but I would tend to assume that in most cases, it's a genuine gender dysphoria, that is to say it's totally real.

RVonse

Veteran Member
A summary of the evidence presented in the Keira Bell case from the UK.

A global expert on autism has warned in newly released legal papers that girls who are autistic or anorexic appear more likely to say they want to become boys.
This makes sense to me. Males with autism are said to be steered towards male cognitive brain functions on the bell curve. For example, autistic males are less sociable and sometimes even savants in mathematics (a male trait)

So it stands to reason that females with the same disorder would feel much more comfortable as males than females. Their brains already think they are males even though the genitalia was born female.

krypton iodine sulfur

Banned
Banned
The association between autism and gender dysphoria/ transgender identities has been known for some time (longer than just last year). I'm not sure if this was a new study or a meta-analysis of existing studies. 6-26% is a very broad range. It's difficult to understand a) how accurate this information is, and b) what the actual implications are. Of the 6-26% percent who may be autistic, an autism diagnosis doesn't preclude them from also being transgender. Obviously with higher numbers than present in the general population, it invites important questions. Is there a link between autism and gender dysphoria? A link between autism and falsely presenting with symptoms of/ attachment to gender dysphoria?

And what of the 94-74% who are not, in accordance with the study, on the autism spectrum?

Perhaps it would make sense to screen for autism in patients referred to gender identity clinics. Perhaps they would require different protocols. Perhaps not. Without a sense of the actual statistical outcomes for existing protocols, it's difficult to understand their efficacy. What studies I've seen on the efficacy rate of medical transition, it tends to be quite high. Like many studies concerning transgender people, there were limitations. And unfortunately, the data may not translate directly to, let's say, the current realities at Tavistock.

Loren Pechtel

Super Moderator
Staff member
Doesn't mean that the therapists don't figure out they're wrong.

Jarhyn

Wizard
The association between autism and gender dysphoria/ transgender identities has been known for some time (longer than just last year). I'm not sure if this was a new study or a meta-analysis of existing studies. 6-26% is a very broad range. It's difficult to understand a) how accurate this information is, and b) what the actual implications are. Of the 6-26% percent who may be autistic, an autism diagnosis doesn't preclude them from also being transgender. Obviously with higher numbers than present in the general population, it invites important questions. Is there a link between autism and gender dysphoria? A link between autism and falsely presenting with symptoms of/ attachment to gender dysphoria?

And what of the 94-74% who are not, in accordance with the study, on the autism spectrum?

Perhaps it would make sense to screen for autism in patients referred to gender identity clinics. Perhaps they would require different protocols. Perhaps not. Without a sense of the actual statistical outcomes for existing protocols, it's difficult to understand their efficacy. What studies I've seen on the efficacy rate of medical transition, it tends to be quite high. Like many studies concerning transgender people, there were limitations. And unfortunately, the data may not translate directly to, let's say, the current realities at Tavistock.

Honestly I expect that the higher instance of transitional efforts among trans people does not stem from a higher instance of core symptoms.

Rather, I suspect that the higher seen rates among autistic people stem from the fact that autistic people more greatly resist others telling them how they ought be.

Look at furries, they have a much higher instance of transitional efforts as well and similarly, furries have a community wherein the social emphasis on gender expectations is "who cares?"

It doesn't surprise me one bit that we are finding more points that land on "when someone is less liable to continue accepting others' demands over their identity, they are more often going to express their identity as not-cis

J842P

Veteran Member
The association between autism and gender dysphoria/ transgender identities has been known for some time (longer than just last year). I'm not sure if this was a new study or a meta-analysis of existing studies. 6-26% is a very broad range. It's difficult to understand a) how accurate this information is, and b) what the actual implications are. Of the 6-26% percent who may be autistic, an autism diagnosis doesn't preclude them from also being transgender. Obviously with higher numbers than present in the general population, it invites important questions. Is there a link between autism and gender dysphoria? A link between autism and falsely presenting with symptoms of/ attachment to gender dysphoria?

And what of the 94-74% who are not, in accordance with the study, on the autism spectrum?

Perhaps it would make sense to screen for autism in patients referred to gender identity clinics. Perhaps they would require different protocols. Perhaps not. Without a sense of the actual statistical outcomes for existing protocols, it's difficult to understand their efficacy. What studies I've seen on the efficacy rate of medical transition, it tends to be quite high. Like many studies concerning transgender people, there were limitations. And unfortunately, the data may not translate directly to, let's say, the current realities at Tavistock.

Yes, I believe there is also an association with high IQ, similarly with homosexuality.

From my own life, the number of people with transgender identity that I meet in the world of computer science and software engineering seems to be much much higher than any other sphere. This also may be true in mathematics.

repoman

Contributor
Humans have a lot of brain power laying about and if it is released from social bonding and constant social calibrations it can more easily be a tool in technical fields.

cycomiko

Member
The association between autism and gender dysphoria/ transgender identities has been known for some time (longer than just last year). I'm not sure if this was a new study or a meta-analysis of existing studies. 6-26% is a very broad range. It's difficult to understand a) how accurate this information is, and b) what the actual implications are. Of the 6-26% percent who may be autistic, an autism diagnosis doesn't preclude them from also being transgender. Obviously with higher numbers than present in the general population, it invites important questions. Is there a link between autism and gender dysphoria? A link between autism and falsely presenting with symptoms of/ attachment to gender dysphoria?

And what of the 94-74% who are not, in accordance with the study, on the autism spectrum?

Perhaps it would make sense to screen for autism in patients referred to gender identity clinics. Perhaps they would require different protocols. Perhaps not. Without a sense of the actual statistical outcomes for existing protocols, it's difficult to understand their efficacy. What studies I've seen on the efficacy rate of medical transition, it tends to be quite high. Like many studies concerning transgender people, there were limitations. And unfortunately, the data may not translate directly to, let's say, the current realities at Tavistock.

Yes, I believe there is also an association with high IQ, similarly with homosexuality.

From my own life, the number of people with transgender identity that I meet in the world of computer science and software engineering seems to be much much higher than any other sphere. This also may be true in mathematics.

I've seen this trend as well. However, a UX designer friend of mine pointed out that such careers tend to be less customer facing and therefore are more free dress and identify as they please. Would be interesting to see if it's actually IQ that drives people into those fields or if it's the draw of the relaxed nature of the workplace.

prideandfall

Veteran Member
Is it a long term solution to the problem or just kicking the can down the road?
well since the article specifically mentions that infertility is a big side effect, if you buy into the idea that gender identity issues are DNA related that seems like a problem that solves itself right there.

repoman

Contributor
Is it a long term solution to the problem or just kicking the can down the road?
well since the article specifically mentions that infertility is a big side effect, if you buy into the idea that gender identity issues are DNA related that seems like a problem that solves itself right there.

No, I think it is related to how adolescence sucks and social media. Some or most are "naturally" going to being transgender with no social inputs. But if it is like being a brony and grasping at straws because of autism and misery that would be dreadful.

Jarhyn

Wizard
The association between autism and gender dysphoria/ transgender identities has been known for some time (longer than just last year). I'm not sure if this was a new study or a meta-analysis of existing studies. 6-26% is a very broad range. It's difficult to understand a) how accurate this information is, and b) what the actual implications are. Of the 6-26% percent who may be autistic, an autism diagnosis doesn't preclude them from also being transgender. Obviously with higher numbers than present in the general population, it invites important questions. Is there a link between autism and gender dysphoria? A link between autism and falsely presenting with symptoms of/ attachment to gender dysphoria?

And what of the 94-74% who are not, in accordance with the study, on the autism spectrum?

Perhaps it would make sense to screen for autism in patients referred to gender identity clinics. Perhaps they would require different protocols. Perhaps not. Without a sense of the actual statistical outcomes for existing protocols, it's difficult to understand their efficacy. What studies I've seen on the efficacy rate of medical transition, it tends to be quite high. Like many studies concerning transgender people, there were limitations. And unfortunately, the data may not translate directly to, let's say, the current realities at Tavistock.

Yes, I believe there is also an association with high IQ, similarly with homosexuality.

From my own life, the number of people with transgender identity that I meet in the world of computer science and software engineering seems to be much much higher than any other sphere. This also may be true in mathematics.

I've seen this trend as well. However, a UX designer friend of mine pointed out that such careers tend to be less customer facing and therefore are more free dress and identify as they please. Would be interesting to see if it's actually IQ that drives people into those fields or if it's the draw of the relaxed nature of the workplace.

My experience as a software engineer, it is largely that these types simply care less, so people find ways to accommodate their non-conformity with regards to identity. Mostly, you can only indulge a wizard for so long with inane expectations of pomp.

Loren Pechtel

Super Moderator
Staff member
The association between autism and gender dysphoria/ transgender identities has been known for some time (longer than just last year). I'm not sure if this was a new study or a meta-analysis of existing studies. 6-26% is a very broad range. It's difficult to understand a) how accurate this information is, and b) what the actual implications are. Of the 6-26% percent who may be autistic, an autism diagnosis doesn't preclude them from also being transgender. Obviously with higher numbers than present in the general population, it invites important questions. Is there a link between autism and gender dysphoria? A link between autism and falsely presenting with symptoms of/ attachment to gender dysphoria?

And what of the 94-74% who are not, in accordance with the study, on the autism spectrum?

Perhaps it would make sense to screen for autism in patients referred to gender identity clinics. Perhaps they would require different protocols. Perhaps not. Without a sense of the actual statistical outcomes for existing protocols, it's difficult to understand their efficacy. What studies I've seen on the efficacy rate of medical transition, it tends to be quite high. Like many studies concerning transgender people, there were limitations. And unfortunately, the data may not translate directly to, let's say, the current realities at Tavistock.

Honestly I expect that the higher instance of transitional efforts among trans people does not stem from a higher instance of core symptoms.

Rather, I suspect that the higher seen rates among autistic people stem from the fact that autistic people more greatly resist others telling them how they ought be.

Look at furries, they have a much higher instance of transitional efforts as well and similarly, furries have a community wherein the social emphasis on gender expectations is "who cares?"

It doesn't surprise me one bit that we are finding more points that land on "when someone is less liable to continue accepting others' demands over their identity, they are more often going to express their identity as not-cis

Interesting point and I suspect you're right.

Jarhyn

Wizard
The association between autism and gender dysphoria/ transgender identities has been known for some time (longer than just last year). I'm not sure if this was a new study or a meta-analysis of existing studies. 6-26% is a very broad range. It's difficult to understand a) how accurate this information is, and b) what the actual implications are. Of the 6-26% percent who may be autistic, an autism diagnosis doesn't preclude them from also being transgender. Obviously with higher numbers than present in the general population, it invites important questions. Is there a link between autism and gender dysphoria? A link between autism and falsely presenting with symptoms of/ attachment to gender dysphoria?

And what of the 94-74% who are not, in accordance with the study, on the autism spectrum?

Perhaps it would make sense to screen for autism in patients referred to gender identity clinics. Perhaps they would require different protocols. Perhaps not. Without a sense of the actual statistical outcomes for existing protocols, it's difficult to understand their efficacy. What studies I've seen on the efficacy rate of medical transition, it tends to be quite high. Like many studies concerning transgender people, there were limitations. And unfortunately, the data may not translate directly to, let's say, the current realities at Tavistock.

Honestly I expect that the higher instance of transitional efforts among trans people does not stem from a higher instance of core symptoms.

Rather, I suspect that the higher seen rates among autistic people stem from the fact that autistic people more greatly resist others telling them how they ought be.

Look at furries, they have a much higher instance of transitional efforts as well and similarly, furries have a community wherein the social emphasis on gender expectations is "who cares?"

It doesn't surprise me one bit that we are finding more points that land on "when someone is less liable to continue accepting others' demands over their identity, they are more often going to express their identity as not-cis

Interesting point and I suspect you're right.

It's a hypothesis I've been entertaining now for at least 5 years, and I think I debuted it here? Though I can't be sure at this point.

I guess my point is, I would like to see this studied but I have no clue how I would be able to go about that. I mean, autistic people, furries, etc. aren't in a behavioral vacuum. There is some real mechanism and I doubt it is strictly comorbidity, especially because there is no sensible causal link between being trans and wanting to be a dog person. At that point, "being a different gender" is less controversial than "being a different species" and so people feel more socially liberated to seek it.

What we are seeing is, I suspect, an indication of what the true instance of trans affect is among the population, which is then suppressed through normative society. It would make a great deal of sense as I expect "invisible" discordance to be more common than visible discordance, and visible discordance is some 1% of everyone.

repoman

Contributor

I don't agree with this but this is how some see it.

Jarhyn

Wizard
View attachment 31290

I don't agree with this but this is how some see it.

Who cares if they see it that way?

If people, given a full and dispassionate listing of ways they may address their feelings, decide that transition is the path they wish to walk and that this is supported by qualified therapists and doctors, what right do "tomboy respecters" have to the existence of tomboys*?

*Spoiler:

None. The answer is none. I learned this in trying to steer one of my past relationships towards what I wanted rather than the identity that fit my partner. It's abusive. I was abusive. Stop apologising for and lifting up abusive viewpoints.

Elixir

Anyone else suspecting that Meta has a problem with girls?

prideandfall

Veteran Member
View attachment 31301

Anyone else suspecting that Meta has a problem with girls?
uh... that's somewhat like 'suspecting' the earth might be round, or having some notions that it's possible that water might be wet.

Metaphor

Sjajna Zvijezda
View attachment 31301

Anyone else suspecting that Meta has a problem with girls?

Go on. Explain to me what the problem I have with girls is.

EDIT: Actually, can a mod remove Elixir's childish off-topic "contribution"? It wasn't an irrelevant aside in a post responding to the OP. The entire post itself was an irrelevant aside.

Emily Lake

Might be a replicant
If adopting a fluid gender helps resolve their anxiety, how is it any of your business? Keep your hands in your own fucking pants. Just because someone is autistic doesn't give you the right to tell them how to handle their private matters. Fucking genital police...

Adopting gender neutral or fluid expressions and behaviors are perfectly fine. The concern is that children who may not be genuinely transgender are being prescribed puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones.

It seems to me that sterility and permanent physical changes should be of concern, and not so easily dismissed - especially when the children in question have other mental health disorders and/or autism.

Emily Lake

Might be a replicant
Physically changing one's sex is an important and irreversible (? or extremely difficult to reverse) process.

If the person takes cross-sex hormones, the changes are not reversible in any meaningful way. Once a body begins developing facial hair, it does not go away, once a person grows breasts, that tissue is permanent. A transgirl could conceivably have a mastectomy to remove that cross-sex hormone driven breast tissue, but that's not a small surgery. Similarly, a transboy could have electrolysis to remove facial hair, albeit at great expense and usually not as permanent as we are led to believe.

If the person only took puberty blockers, and did NOT take cross-sex hormones, then the delay is moderately reversible, but there are still long-term risks. If a person desists with the blockers, they will resume puberty and develop their natural secondary sex characteristics.

Politesse

Lux Aeterna
If adopting a fluid gender helps resolve their anxiety, how is it any of your business? Keep your hands in your own fucking pants. Just because someone is autistic doesn't give you the right to tell them how to handle their private matters. Fucking genital police...

Adopting gender neutral or fluid expressions and behaviors are perfectly fine. The concern is that children who may not be genuinely transgender are being prescribed puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones.

It seems to me that sterility and permanent physical changes should be of concern, and not so easily dismissed - especially when the children in question have other mental health disorders and/or autism.

Even if we were to assume that every single autistic man being patronized and misgendered in the OP will decide to take puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones- and this would be silly btw, as most do not - is there any evidence that puberty blockers might cause any of the side effects you mention? If it's just a question of being confused for a few years, it is unlikely that the person would still be "confused" by the time they reached the stage of making permanent hormonal changes. The whole point of puberty blockers is to create extra time for addressing such questions.

Yes, once you start developing secondary sex characteristics, it's too late to change that without considerable challenge. But that is also true for a trans person who is not taking any medication. It's not your place to decide for someone else whether they want to develop in a way they aren't comfortable with.

Jarhyn

Wizard
If adopting a fluid gender helps resolve their anxiety, how is it any of your business? Keep your hands in your own fucking pants. Just because someone is autistic doesn't give you the right to tell them how to handle their private matters. Fucking genital police...

Adopting gender neutral or fluid expressions and behaviors are perfectly fine. The concern is that children who may not be genuinely transgender are being prescribed puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones.

It seems to me that sterility and permanent physical changes should be of concern, and not so easily dismissed - especially when the children in question have other mental health disorders and/or autism.

Even if we were to assume that every single autistic man being patronized and misgendered in the OP will decide to take puberty blockers and cross-sex hormones- and this would be silly btw, as most do not - is there any evidence that puberty blockers might cause any of the side effects you mention? If it's just a question of being confused for a few years, it is unlikely that the person would still be "confused" by the time they reached the stage of making permanent hormonal changes. The whole point of puberty blockers is to create extra time for addressing such questions.

Yes, once you start developing secondary sex characteristics, it's too late to change that without considerable challenge. But that is also true for a trans person who is not taking any medication. It's not your place to decide for someone else whether they want to develop in a way they aren't comfortable with.

Nope. Their example of "consequences" arise from studies of little girls who started on them at precocial pubertal ages.

I keep pointing this out, and you hit the nail on the head: puberty comes for us all. These changes as a result of hormone exposure are well studied because we have been observing the results for millennia untold.

I very much think that self-determination is preferable to denial of agency, especially in a decision so few make counter to societal expectations in the first place.

An order of magnitude more individuals experience infertility merely as a function of being born, too. It's not like it's a new problem, or as if adoption isn't a thing, or even IVF, if it comes to that. As it is, my husband's machinery spins back up whenever he misses more than a single shot, which sucks for both of us.

Like, all this concern trolling for a minority of a minority who are nonetheless better informed of the consequences to their health than virtually any other consumer of health services, for which the instances of unwanted effects are vanishingly low.

krypton iodine sulfur

Banned
Banned
Similarly, a transboy could have electrolysis to remove facial hair, albeit at great expense and usually not as permanent as we are led to believe.

Are you sure you aren't thinking of laser? Electrolysis usually requires several treatments for a single hair (though it varies depending on type used: thermolysis, galvanic, blend). Getting everything isn't easy. The process takes months to years. Some hairs may be missed or regrow, but I haven't seen anything where people experience significant regrowth after 5/8/10 years.

It is expensive, though how expensive is quite variable. Some people never grow much facial hair in the first place, and someone who hasn't reached the full extent of hair growth will have much less work to do. It may be easier to remove the hairs and their may be far fewer to remove.

For me, I don't know how long it took. Over two hundred hours on the table, and over $14k across somewhere between two and three years (though there were a couple of gaps due to my father's illness and surgery). It was painful. More than that, embarrassing. So, I don't particularly wish that on Bell. I sure as fuck don't wish it on my younger self. I guess where I'm a tad petty is no one presented me with any fucking options when I was young. It wasn't even about being wrong, I just didn't realize what was even possible, and even if I had, it would have been very difficult to access, and not everything that can be done now was available back then. A before and after: These photos are over a decade apart (I believe 24/25 in the first and just shy of 38 in the second), and one is a shitty, low res selfie I snapped just now, but they do illustrate a considerable difference: after hundreds of hours of electrolysis I now have a totally different hat. On the left, I had last shaved clean between three and four weeks earlier. On the right, I haven't shaved my face for about two weeks (have never waxed or done other hair removal apart from electrolysis). No makeup (obviously) or retouching on my face. It's too low res to see that there are some hairs, but I've known cis women with more, and I also stopped electrology a bit early because reasons. There are only a handful of dark ones and while they sometimes get to me, tweezers can handle it. I don't wish electrology on someone like Bell. It is expensive and it is shitty compared to just not having to deal with having facial hair. But of all the things that can and cannot be changed, it's one of the less harsh areas to deal with (should she feel the need). Now, the changes to her voice would be much more difficult to address if she felt inclined to. Even with surgery and/ or vocal coaching, it's not easy. I really don't wish any of that on her, but at the same time, I do wish I had the options and resources she had available to her available to me when I was fifteen (or younger). Part of the reason I don't wish any of that on her is I've lived it. Painfully. And some of it could have been spared from me for certain. Metaphor Sjajna Zvijezda Even if we were to assume that every single autistic man being patronized and misgendered in the OP Are you implying that every single natal female who presents at a gender clinic is, in fact, a transboy/transman? Would you find it desirable instead to call them natal females rather than 'girls'? Jarhyn Wizard Similarly, a transboy could have electrolysis to remove facial hair, albeit at great expense and usually not as permanent as we are led to believe. Are you sure you aren't thinking of laser? Electrolysis usually requires several treatments for a single hair (though it varies depending on type used: thermolysis, galvanic, blend). Getting everything isn't easy. The process takes months to years. Some hairs may be missed or regrow, but I haven't seen anything where people experience significant regrowth after 5/8/10 years. It is expensive, though how expensive is quite variable. Some people never grow much facial hair in the first place, and someone who hasn't reached the full extent of hair growth will have much less work to do. It may be easier to remove the hairs and their may be far fewer to remove. For me, I don't know how long it took. Over two hundred hours on the table, and over$14k across somewhere between two and three years (though there were a couple of gaps due to my father's illness and surgery). It was painful. More than that, embarrassing. So, I don't particularly wish that on Bell. I sure as fuck don't wish it on my younger self. I guess where I'm a tad petty is no one presented me with any fucking options when I was young. It wasn't even about being wrong, I just didn't realize what was even possible, and even if I had, it would have been very difficult to access, and not everything that can be done now was available back then.

A before and after:

View attachment 31328View attachment 31329

These photos are over a decade apart (I believe 24/25 in the first and just shy of 38 in the second), and one is a shitty, low res selfie I snapped just now, but they do illustrate a considerable difference: after hundreds of hours of electrolysis I now have a totally different hat.

On the left, I had last shaved clean between three and four weeks earlier. On the right, I haven't shaved my face for about two weeks (have never waxed or done other hair removal apart from electrolysis). No makeup (obviously) or retouching on my face. It's too low res to see that there are some hairs, but I've known cis women with more, and I also stopped electrology a bit early because reasons. There are only a handful of dark ones and while they sometimes get to me, tweezers can handle it.

I don't wish electrology on someone like Bell. It is expensive and it is shitty compared to just not having to deal with having facial hair. But of all the things that can and cannot be changed, it's one of the less harsh areas to deal with (should she feel the need). Now, the changes to her voice would be much more difficult to address if she felt inclined to. Even with surgery and/ or vocal coaching, it's not easy. I really don't wish any of that on her, but at the same time, I do wish I had the options and resources she had available to her available to me when I was fifteen (or younger). Part of the reason I don't wish any of that on her is I've lived it. Painfully. And some of it could have been spared from me for certain.

Not to mention that not everyone can even get cheaper or less painful hair removals done. There are certain things that just can't be addressed, fixed, or altered effectively after the fact of an unwanted puberty.

The goal is to have fewer expensive, painful, difficult interventions. We will have fewer interventions if we allow access to blockers through the teens for such people.

krypton iodine sulfur

Banned
Banned
Not to mention that not everyone can even get cheaper or less painful hair removals done. There are certain things that just can't be addressed, fixed, or altered effectively after the fact of an unwanted puberty.

Yeah. There are so many complications and considerations, compromises, difficult decisions as it is. A lot of the decision making happens far past what you want, and is deep in 'what is it even possible for me to do?' territory. Time feels like your enemy through most of it. Unsurprisingly, there are a lot of unqualified opinions on what trans people should do when wrt to medical/ social/ legal transition. They make it sound easy like flipping a switch.

The goal is to have fewer expensive, painful, difficult interventions. We will have fewer interventions if we allow access to blockers through the teens for such people.

I agree generally. Improved health outcomes are the highest priority. For instance, if a transgender girl starts puberty blockers early and goes straight to cross-sex hrt, it may limit options for vaginoplasty down the road leaving options which involve skin grafts or the use of colon tissue. In aggregate, that may still mean a reduction in difficult interventions, but it's so variable depending on individual needs. Tradeoffs at every step.

repoman

Contributor
Does having a foreskin aid in having a more successful suurgery? Maybe that can be used to argue against infant circumcision.

Jarhyn

Wizard
Not to mention that not everyone can even get cheaper or less painful hair removals done. There are certain things that just can't be addressed, fixed, or altered effectively after the fact of an unwanted puberty.

Yeah. There are so many complications and considerations, compromises, difficult decisions as it is. A lot of the decision making happens far past what you want, and is deep in 'what is it even possible for me to do?' territory. Time feels like your enemy through most of it. Unsurprisingly, there are a lot of unqualified opinions on what trans people should do when wrt to medical/ social/ legal transition. They make it sound easy like flipping a switch.

The goal is to have fewer expensive, painful, difficult interventions. We will have fewer interventions if we allow access to blockers through the teens for such people.

I agree generally. Improved health outcomes are the highest priority. For instance, if a transgender girl starts puberty blockers early and goes straight to cross-sex hrt, it may limit options for vaginoplasty down the road leaving options which involve skin grafts or the use of colon tissue. In aggregate, that may still mean a reduction in difficult interventions, but it's so variable depending on individual needs. Tradeoffs at every step.

Yeah, it's just so hard. Like, give me a character select and the option I would take is... Let's just say it's more creative than Cyberpunk 2077. And depending on how far technology would allow, probably farther and weirder than anyone on these forums would be comfortable with. Maybe something Lovecraftian even.

Anyway, I could honestly, I think, pull my own trigger with nothing down there at all at this point, but I don't think that's really the direction I would go, either. Doctors certainly wouldn't take me as far as I would ask them to go even today. I'm well over 30 at this point. Time isn't my enemy because... Well, I think we as people CAN "Altered Carbon" and will achieve this in our lifetimes, assuming you live as old as that oligarch fuck who just kicked it. I don't know if I'll make it that long, or think even now that I have in any way earned such a thing. I don't know if that can possibly be earned, and that troubles me more than anything. That said, time is the enemy of us all in some ways.

So of course I am going to be an advocate for rights of self determination. Because I wish to be afforded this right. I think the only people who don't around here are those so high up on their pedestal only because they either conveniently already have what they want, or they lack the hubris and the temerity to seek it. I wonder who that makes a "soy" or a "cuck" or whatever the latest slur intended wronglu for people who don't accept the expectation that they act as a weak man's idea of a strong one.

Rhea

Cyborg with a Tiara
Staff member
This topic has discussed biology and psychology more than politics. The mod team has recommended moving it to Science.

Emily Lake

Might be a replicant
Trimmed for length

Similarly, a transboy could have electrolysis to remove facial hair, albeit at great expense and usually not as permanent as we are led to believe.

Are you sure you aren't thinking of laser?
Very likely. It's good to know that electrolysis is more effective. I've acquired some really obnoxious chin hairs as I've aged, and I'd love to make them go away for good. Still pricey though. Otherwise, I would totally remove my armpit hairs for good.

These photos are over a decade apart (I believe 24/25 in the first and just shy of 38 in the second), and one is a shitty, low res selfie I snapped just now, but they do illustrate a considerable difference: after hundreds of hours of electrolysis I now have a totally different hat.
Well done, that made me giggle!

I really don't wish any of that on her, but at the same time, I do wish I had the options and resources she had available to her available to me when I was fifteen (or younger). Part of the reason I don't wish any of that on her is I've lived it. Painfully. And some of it could have been spared from me for certain.

And that's where more stringent guidelines for minors come into play. I'm not 100% opposed to transitioning minors, but I do think there should be considerably more care taken to ensure that gender dysphoria requiring transition is the most appropriate approach, and that other factors have been addressed. If a child is autistic, make sure that appropriate occupational therapy has been undergone, and that the dysphoria is genuine before proceeding. Similarly, if a minor has a history of mental health issues, make sure that those are addressed first. All of that, however, flies out the window in a self-id and affirmation-only environment.

I would love for the options to be meaningfully available to to the true positives, and to reduce the false positives as much as possible.

Jarhyn

Wizard
Trimmed for length

Very likely. It's good to know that electrolysis is more effective. I've acquired some really obnoxious chin hairs as I've aged, and I'd love to make them go away for good. Still pricey though. Otherwise, I would totally remove my armpit hairs for good.

These photos are over a decade apart (I believe 24/25 in the first and just shy of 38 in the second), and one is a shitty, low res selfie I snapped just now, but they do illustrate a considerable difference: after hundreds of hours of electrolysis I now have a totally different hat.
Well done, that made me giggle!

I really don't wish any of that on her, but at the same time, I do wish I had the options and resources she had available to her available to me when I was fifteen (or younger). Part of the reason I don't wish any of that on her is I've lived it. Painfully. And some of it could have been spared from me for certain.

And that's where more stringent guidelines for minors come into play. I'm not 100% opposed to transitioning minors, but I do think there should be considerably more care taken to ensure that gender dysphoria requiring transition is the most appropriate approach, and that other factors have been addressed. If a child is autistic, make sure that appropriate occupational therapy has been undergone, and that the dysphoria is genuine before proceeding. Similarly, if a minor has a history of mental health issues, make sure that those are addressed first. All of that, however, flies out the window in a self-id and affirmation-only environment.

I would love for the options to be meaningfully available to to the true positives, and to reduce the false positives as much as possible.

And there's the rub. You are not qualified to make that call. You are an armchair non-professional who is not even themselves autistic. You have no training and no context, so I would personally ask that you please kindly quit trying to step between autistic people and their doctors.

Also, you STILL haven't answered the calculus that indicates that the effect is more likely due to a lack of cultural bias against transition than it is due to some kind of acting out as you seem to want to believe (which is incredibly patronizing by the way, and I absolutely see the irony that you are yet again trying to foist your views on gender onto the rest of us).

Emily Lake

Might be a replicant
Jarhyn, have you bothered to read through the Tavistock investigation at all?

Politesse

Lux Aeterna
Jarhyn, have you bothered to read through the Tavistock investigation at all?

What about that study are you trying to highlight, exactly? Does it say that decisions should be taken out of the hands of the children, their families, and their therapists?

Jarhyn

Wizard
Jarhyn, have you bothered to read through the Tavistock investigation at all?

What about that study are you trying to highlight, exactly? Does it say that decisions should be taken out of the hands of the children, their families, and their therapists?

They want to claim that when people have an open choice to transition (relative to what they wish to enforce wrt gatekeeping) more persist than do when more restrictive policies are in place. They want to claim that this implies that the difference of margins is an indicator that they are not experiencing "real" dysphoria without considering the calculus behind desistence in the restricted space.

My hypothesis is that desistence is equally a function of people now being on the far side of the horizon, now never able to achieve the results they want and so they "settle" on a lifetime of shattered dreams rather than going through the pain and dissatisfaction of an incomplete result. For the record, that reality is where I myself live, so I know it is absolutely a factor in play.

Among them also must be those who are more flexible in their self image in that they have both desires of equal extent and merely having the decision complete is sufficient for them to accept where they are.

They think that transition where, in a restricted environment desistence would result, this means no course of treatment is warranted. To which I generally say "fuck you and get bent".

We get more positive outcomes when people have a choice. Some will choose badly, but as I think you and I both would agree, that doesn't mean they shouldn't get to choose, especially with the help of people who ACTUALLY have experience in this decision and how to keep it from being made flippantly.

They essentially are busting in on doctors and professionals and individuals because in their not-doctor opinion, they know better than the doctors or persons what goals should be acceptable with respect to bodily autonomy. To which my response is also "get bent".

Emily Lake

Might be a replicant
Jarhyn, have you bothered to read through the Tavistock investigation at all?

What about that study are you trying to highlight, exactly? Does it say that decisions should be taken out of the hands of the children, their families, and their therapists?

The court's decision was that children under 16 are unable to make an informed decision with respect to puberty blockers or cross-sex hormones, and that they cannot be prescribed to children under 16 without the court's approval.

The investigation further showed that Tavistock was prescribing hormone blockers with insufficient diagnosis efforts (often after only a few hours worth of discussion), and with no follow-up or tracking. Tavistock had not been monitoring their patients with respect to the satisfaction of the outcomes of their prescriptions, nor to any side effects or risks associated with the drugs they were prescribing.

Tavistock ignored and suppressed concerns voiced by their own doctors that the approaches being pushed were essentially conversion therapy for gay children, and that other significant mental health issues were being ignored.

Jarhyn

Wizard
Jarhyn, have you bothered to read through the Tavistock investigation at all?

What about that study are you trying to highlight, exactly? Does it say that decisions should be taken out of the hands of the children, their families, and their therapists?

The court's decision was that children under 16 are unable to make an informed decision with respect to puberty blockers or cross-sex hormones, and that they cannot be prescribed to children under 16 without the court's approval.

The investigation further showed that Tavistock was prescribing hormone blockers with insufficient diagnosis efforts (often after only a few hours worth of discussion), and with no follow-up or tracking. Tavistock had not been monitoring their patients with respect to the satisfaction of the outcomes of their prescriptions, nor to any side effects or risks associated with the drugs they were prescribing.

Tavistock ignored and suppressed concerns voiced by their own doctors that the approaches being pushed were essentially conversion therapy for gay children, and that other significant mental health issues were being ignored.

Ah, back to ThInK Of ThE ChIlDrEn.

The fact that some organization in the world does things badly does not speak to whether the world, generally, does things badly.

You do admit therefore that you wish to get between children, parents, and their doctors, irreversibility of puberty be damned.

Get bent.

Emily Lake

Might be a replicant
Jarhyn, have you bothered to read through the Tavistock investigation at all?

What about that study are you trying to highlight, exactly? Does it say that decisions should be taken out of the hands of the children, their families, and their therapists?

They want to claim that...

No. None of your screed has anything to do with the Tavistock investigation.