Being God/godlike and forgetting about it...

[excreationist]

This might be a New Age idea.... and maybe involved in some religions - particularly eastern ones.... is there a technical term for this? I wanted to explore this ancient concept...

It is basically saying that a god (or a god-like being) exists - and it is you - but you forgot it.... (though perhaps in New Age, etc, other people are also gods/God as well)

There are two examples of this concept that are related to possibly being in a simulation.

The first is the "Roy game". In Rick and Morty, Morty is forced to become "Roy" and he soon forgets his original identity:



I think Alan Watts' dream thought experiment could be implemented in a simulation..... it would start off with the person fulfilling their wildest dreams then later having adventures that could involve fantasy creatures like dragons and eventually you'd want to have surprises and eventually live lives where you forgot your original identity....



In both scenarios I guess forgetting your original identity makes the life more immersive and makes the eventual restoration of your memories a pleasant or at least interesting surprise.

I think those two scenarios also address the problem of evil and suffering.... the person consented to living a life involving significant suffering. Or at least Rick did when he forced Morty into the game.

Perhaps it could be said that Morty isn't godlike after he's out of the game though he is the only real character in the game. Theoretically it is possible he could come back into the game and use cheats/hacks/mods to have god like abilities....

Not really related but here is a Groundhog Day scene where Phil says he is a god:

'Groundhog Day' "I'm a god" scene

Based on this scene, how many times has Bill Murray been through this day?

www.youtube.com

Though Groundhog Day could be easily implemented in a simulation.

I think in New Age they can call their "godhood" their "higher self" ?

 

[abaddon]

Ok, I'm not 100% sure I've understood. But I'll comment.

Your simulation idea is basically dualistic Christianity. In it, there's a god who creates a universe to keep himself amused.

The religious philosophies that Watts is drawing on don't see things "dualistically" like that. The basic idea is all is one whole, a totality. IOW the "universe" and "God" are the same thing. So the phenomena of the universe are something like the thoughts of this conscious universe-god. Some of those thoughts are "people". These particular thoughts became so self-conscious that they mis-identified themselves as lone, separate selves that are distinct from the universe. So, figuratively speaking, they become like the "alters" in dissociative identity disorder. They don't know they're facets of a greater Self (ie, the universe-mind or "God").

By mistaking their personal selves as distinct from the whole, they feel like they're 'thrown into' a nasty, antagonistic world. Many of these deluded "alters" get religious in response to this -- they become hopeful that a beyond-the-universe God will "save" them from the antagonistic world. But in nondualistic thought, waking up from that "dream" is realizing you are not only your personal identity, memories, worries, et al, but are a facet of the totality - the universe.

Another dualistic response to feeling separate from God and the universe, is to want to be "godlike" -- to become like that christian-esque beyond-the-universe God. It's the problem with technophiles (among others). They want to be "like God" by redesigning their world through engineering. That's dualistic and anthropocentric as hell in the sense it sees the universe as an antagonistic place that needs to be modified with technology to conform with human wishes. Whereas I think the nondual spiritualities are more about getting over your merely human wishes and wake up to how we ARE the universe and therefore we're not the puppets of an otherworldly god nor are we masters of the universe ourselves.

So, I guess what I'm getting at is you're mixing metaphors. The dualistic metaphor of God as other than us, so that we're in a kind of simulation made by "him". And the nondualistic metaphor (as presented by Alan Watts) where we (and the birds and trees and eveything) are not other than God but only mistakenly think so. The "dream" is this mistaken misperception of being an isolated self, an "alter".

 

[excreationist]

To comment on some things:

Your simulation idea is basically dualistic Christianity. In it, there's a god who creates a universe to keep himself amused.

Yes though I don't see how that could be called dualism... normally dualism means good vs evil or mind vs body.... unless it is about the simulation vs the external entity. I don't think it has anything at all to do with Christianity.

The religious philosophies that Watts is drawing on don't see things "dualistically" like that. The basic idea is all is one whole, a totality. IOW the "universe" and "God" are the same thing.

Well in Alan Watts' "dreams" I see it involving simulations and an external consciousness interacting with it that loses access to its memories. So there are multiple parts.

So the phenomena of the universe are something like the thoughts of this conscious universe-god.

Yes originally that would be the case but in my interpretation it involves a mechanistic simulation that is separate from the dreamer/player. Initially the player has pretty much complete control over the simulation....

Some of those thoughts are "people". These particular thoughts became so self-conscious that they mis-identified themselves as lone, separate selves that are distinct from the universe.

I think the regular people (NPCs) in the simulation are very distinct from the dreamer/player.... unless they were given special orders by the dreamer before the current dream began....

Another dualistic response to feeling separate from God and the universe, is to want to be "godlike" -- to become like that christian-esque beyond-the-universe God.

Well in Alan Watts' thought experiment people began godlike... and then they want to experience the lack of that partly for amusement.

So, I guess what I'm getting at is you're mixing metaphors. The dualistic metaphor of God as other than us, so that we're in a kind of simulation made by "him".

I think the Roy game doesn't necessarily have much to do with God - it's just that your true identity is a lot larger than the Roy character that you think your existence is all about.

 

[excreationist]

About Alan Watts' speech:

If there was a being with godlike powers (like in that dream thought experiment) it would either be able to handle boredom or it couldn't..... if it couldn't handle boredom it would want to create surprises and/or hide memories.... hiding memories and awareness of everything involves severing its godlike abilities....

A transcript of the speech:

1.2.3. - Mythology of Hinduism - Pt. 1

I wonder, I wonder, what you would do if you had the power to dream at night, any dream you wanted to dream. And you would of course be able to alter your time-sense and slip, say seventy-five years of subjective time into eight hours of sleep. You would, I suppose, start out by […]

alanwatts.org

If you were god, and in this sense that you knew everything, you would be bored. Because, if looking at it from another way, we push technology to its furthest possible development, and we had instead of a dial telephone on one’s desk, a more complicated system of buttons, and one touch would give you anything you wanted, Aladdin’s lamp, you would eventually have to add a button labelled surprise, because all perfectly know futures are past. They have happened, virtually. It is only the true future that is a surprise.

Then the speech went on to say:

So if you were god, you would say to yourself – man, get lost.

Then it goes much, much longer..... (in other tangents)

So his dream thought experiment is apparently related to Hinduism.....

Then there's part 2:

1.2.4. - Mythology of Hinduism - Pt. 2

This is the world of the Deva. And this is the same root from which we get both divine and devil, but Deva means angel. The highest and most successful beings in the universe, and so opposite this is the world of narac, naraka, who are the most unsuccessful .These are the purgatorial worlds of […]

alanwatts.org

that ends with "God has really done a dare on himself this time to be a Christian soul"

 

[excreationist]

More from:

1.2.3. - Mythology of Hinduism - Pt. 1

I wonder, I wonder, what you would do if you had the power to dream at night, any dream you wanted to dream. And you would of course be able to alter your time-sense and slip, say seventy-five years of subjective time into eight hours of sleep. You would, I suppose, start out by […]

alanwatts.org

So that the appearance, of the feeling that there are other things than the Godhead, is called Maya. Maya. We ordinarily translate that word illusion. But you must be careful about the word illusion. Illusion is related to the Latin ludere. And that means play. And this is why the analogy of the world is dramatic. It’s a play-in the sense of a stage play.

I'd say there is the self (who can be unaware of their god-like potential) and Maya (and also the outside world that the self came from). I'd say that Maya is the machinery of the simulation including the non-player characters....

Alan Watts says:

the Hindu thinks of it as dramatic play of the actual participation of the Godhead in the creation so that every being whatsoever is God in disguise

Unless a piece of your original identity is tweaking Maya through other characters without your main identity in the simulation being explicitly aware of it....

 

[lostone]

About Alan Watts' speech:

If there was a being with godlike powers (like in that dream thought experiment) it would either be able to handle boredom or it couldn't..... if it couldn't handle boredom it would want to create surprises and/or hide memories.... hiding memories and awareness of everything involves severing its godlike abilities....

A transcript of the speech:

1.2.3. - Mythology of Hinduism - Pt. 1

I wonder, I wonder, what you would do if you had the power to dream at night, any dream you wanted to dream. And you would of course be able to alter your time-sense and slip, say seventy-five years of subjective time into eight hours of sleep. You would, I suppose, start out by […]

alanwatts.org

If you were god, and in this sense that you knew everything, you would be bored. Because, if looking at it from another way, we push technology to its furthest possible development, and we had instead of a dial telephone on one’s desk, a more complicated system of buttons, and one touch would give you anything you wanted, Aladdin’s lamp, you would eventually have to add a button labelled surprise, because all perfectly know futures are past. They have happened, virtually. It is only the true future that is a surprise.

Then the speech went on to say:

So if you were god, you would say to yourself – man, get lost.

Then it goes much, much longer..... (in other tangents)

So his dream thought experiment is apparently related to Hinduism.....

Then there's part 2:

1.2.4. - Mythology of Hinduism - Pt. 2

This is the world of the Deva. And this is the same root from which we get both divine and devil, but Deva means angel. The highest and most successful beings in the universe, and so opposite this is the world of narac, naraka, who are the most unsuccessful .These are the purgatorial worlds of […]

alanwatts.org

that ends with "God has really done a dare on himself this time to be a Christian soul"

Women seem to be left out of all of this mysticism. All of these religions have shut out half of humanity? An experience of humankind that would have to be part of the divine, if there is any such? Or should we take the view that there is some femininity in all of us? Then how is that femininity supposed to expressed in the divine game?

 

[excreationist]

Women seem to be left out of all of this mysticism. All of these religions have shut out half of humanity? An experience of humankind that would have to be part of the divine, if there is any such? Or should we take the view that there is some femininity in all of us? Then how is that femininity supposed to expressed in the divine game?

Actually in the link I gave

1.2.3. - Mythology of Hinduism - Pt. 1

I wonder, I wonder, what you would do if you had the power to dream at night, any dream you wanted to dream. And you would of course be able to alter your time-sense and slip, say seventy-five years of subjective time into eight hours of sleep. You would, I suppose, start out by […]

alanwatts.org

it talks about Kali which is a Hindu goddess.... (though Watts seems to use the word to apply to a period of time)

The Kabbalah system of Jewish mysticism talks about divine femininity....

In Watts' speech he talks about "dancing girls" and rescuing princesses from dragons.....

In the Roy game Morty really loved his wife.....

BTW:

Jung described the animus as the unconscious masculine side of a woman, and the anima as the unconscious feminine side of a man, each transcending the personal psyche.

 

[lostone]

The word/name Kali seems to apply to multiple things/persons in Hinduism. The Kali which is an aspect of Shiva was, previous to this discussion, the only one I was familiar with, is referenced here:.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kali

There is a demon named Kali as well.

Kali (demon) - Wikipedia

Some souls, according to some Hindu mystics, such as this fellow Madhvacharya, would stay in a Hell ruled by this demon Kali forever.

Tamo-yogyas - Wikipedia

Of course, as we can be certain, it is all Hindu theology and philosophy, and as many multiple interpretations exist as there people doing the speculating.

I was not even aware that Hinduism had a hell before reading about it in this thread. So you have introduced me to threads of Hindusim I have never encountered before now.

 

[excreationist]

.....Some souls, according to some Hindu mystics, such as this fellow Madhvacharya, would stay in a Hell ruled by this demon Kali forever.

.....I was not even aware that Hinduism had a hell before reading about it in this thread. So you have introduced me to threads of Hindusim I have never encountered before now.

From: (post 15)

Partly defending Pascal's Wager? (only one popular eternal hell for non-believers)

Pascal's Wager began talking about Christianity.... If you believe in Jesus/God: Jesus/God exists - go to paradise forever Jesus/God doesn't exist - time wasted, etc If you don't believe in Jesus/God: Jesus/God exists - go to hell forever Jesus/God doesn't exist - nothing A counter-argument...

iidb.org

1.2.4. - Mythology of Hinduism - Pt. 2

This is the world of the Deva. And this is the same root from which we get both divine and devil, but Deva means angel. The highest and most successful beings in the universe, and so opposite this is the world of narac, naraka, who are the most unsuccessful .These are the purgatorial worlds of […]

alanwatts.org

"...Even the Avici hell at the bottom of the Naraka only goes on for about one Kalpa..." which is 4.32 billion years.... so that doesn't seem to be quite forever.....

 

[lostone]

Since you apparently did not read my reference from Wiki, let me quote it:

According to Madhvacharya, Naraka (hell) is temporary for sinners like thieves and drunkards, but not for those who express eternal hatred against God, the Dvaita gurus or the Vedas.[3] Therefore, the eternally damned would consist of the most evil, sadomasochistic living entities, including the demon Kali, who although carries out the orders of God also enjoys being punished, and who is said to be the most wicked being.[4] They would sink down into Andhatamisra, which would remain independently during every kalpa.[5] Some Dvaitins regard this as an expression of universal kindness, because it would fit in with their nature, comparing it to the neem tree, which prefers bitter minerals for its growth.[5]

 

[excreationist]

lostone:
I was going on what Alan Watts said and I assumed he was an expert on the topic. In 1.2.4. – Mythology of Hinduism – Pt. 2 he seems to be saying that hell is only eternal in Christianity.

Even the Avici hell at the bottom of the Naraka only goes on for about one Kalpa. But the everlasting damnation. What an idea. So the Hindu says Bravo, you know. God has really done a dare on himself this time to be a Christian soul.

Perhaps Madhvacharya's view isn't accurately reflecting the traditional Hindu doctrine....
Watt seems to be saying that in Hinduism things are cyclic.... (including hell)

 

[lostone]

Based on Wiki, and other sources as well, he appears to be a very important Hindu philosopher

Madhvacharya - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Madhva - New World Encyclopedia

www.newworldencyclopedia.org

Madhvacharya Facts for Kids

Learn Madhvacharya facts for kids

kids.kiddle.co

It would appear that the source to be most questioned is Watt. Watt is not a major figure in any school or sub-school of Hinduism.

 

[lostone]

Hinduism undoubtably has many threads and sub-threads. I certainly am no expert on them. I just quote what sources I find. I, too, have dabbled in it, since I love all mythologies.

 

[excreationist]

It would appear that the source to be most questioned is Watt. Watt is not a major figure in any school or sub-school of Hinduism.

So you're saying that since the 13th century Hindu figure Madhvacharya said that hell can be eternal then it is a form of Hindu doctrine? I was talking about traditional Hinduism (maybe that's what Watts is talking about). BTW are there any earlier Hindus that believe that hell can be eternal?

Madhvacharya - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

says "there is no reason supporting the theory that Madhva's views on afterlife were influenced by Muslim or Christian impulses" though I don't think it was a coincidence that he introduced eternal hell into Hinduism while he had contact with Christian material that taught eternal hell.

BTW

Is there any permenant hell in Hinduism?

Consider the following excerpt from Mahabaratha "Then Shakra, the lord of the deities, endued with blazing prosperity, addressed Yudhishthira and comforting him, said, ‘O Yudhishthira of mig...

hinduism.stackexchange.com

Is there any permenant hell in Hinduism?

From answer 1:
....This is an attempt of indirectly showing that in Hinduism the concept of an eternal hell can not exist.

From answer 2:
There is no eternal hell. There are Gita verses that suggest that some Jivas can never get out of the cycle of Samsara.

 

[lostone]

An entire sub-school of Hinduism, a major part of the Vedanta school, is founded on the ideas of this Madhva. I don't see how you can ignore him in favor of some modern day Western interpreter of Hinduistic ideas. I am not agreeing with the idea, I am just saying that in weighing Hindu ideas, he cannot be ignored, any more than Shiva based ideas, for example. To do so would seem to me to be like saying that only Catholic ideas from circa 1100 AD define Christianity.

 

[lostone]

This guy died in 1278. How traditional does he have to be?

 

[excreationist]

In this thread I'm talking about parts of Hinduism that are related to Alan Watts' dream thought experiment.

Thanks for introducing me to this part of Hinduism that talks about eternal hell. I don't think it makes sense though to go from cycles to an eternal existence of hell.... which is infinitely longer than a googolplex.... though in Christianity I think it makes sense (but not really from a moral point of view)

 

[excreationist]

This guy died in 1278. How traditional does he have to be?

Well there are apparently roots in c. 500–200 BCE and c. 300 CE, etc.

 

[excreationist]

.....To do so would seem to me to be like saying that only Catholic ideas from circa 1100 AD define Christianity.

Well Luther apparently based his catechisms on what the Bible itself said rather than creating his own scriptures (like Joseph Smith)

So either ancient Hinduism taught eternal hell or Madhvacharya came up with the idea himself.... ?

I guess it is more correct to include Madhvacharya's ideas as being part of Hinduism.

 

[lostone]

I do not know the answer to those questions. From what I knew, before this thread, the concept of hell itself was not a part of Hinduism. I rather doubt this man's ideas would have caught on so much and created a major branch of Hinduism unless those ideas had deep roots. If he had created his ideas without those roots, do you think they would ever have found a following? Martin Luther's ideas had roots in the hypocrisy and moral failings of the clergy, hundreds of years old, for example.