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Biden administration announces partial student loan forgiveness

southernhybrid

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People who have been paying down their student loans for decades will get a better chance at debt cancellation, as the Biden administration temporarily relaxes the rules of certain repayment plans.
On Tuesday, the Education Department said it will grant federal student loan borrowers additional credit toward loan forgiveness under what is known as income-driven repayment plans. The move will bring more than 3.6 million people closer to debt cancellation, including 40,000 who will be immediately eligible, according to the department.

About half of the more than $1 trillion in outstanding student loans made directly by the federal government are being repaid through one of the four income-driven plans. The plans cap monthly payments at a given percentage of earnings, with the promise that the balance will be forgiven after 20 or 25 years of payments.

I've never supported blanket student loan forgiveness, but this seems like a reasonable plan. Some of the details are absent from this article, but it appears as if it will help those who have been paying on their loans for many years, especially those who barely make enough income to afford their monthly payments. The comment section is full of a lot of angry people who don't want anyone to have loan forgiveness. I find that surprising since most surveys claims there is over 50% support for student loan forgiveness. The article should be available for anyone to read for at least two weeks, according to WaPo's gifting rules.

The trouble is that decades of poor communication between the Education Department, its loan servicers and borrowers have made the program difficult to navigate. Now, Education Secretary Miguel Cardona says the agency will remedy years of administrative failures that effectively denied loan forgiveness to some borrowers enrolled in income-driven plans.
“Student loans were never meant to be a life sentence, but it’s certainly felt that way for borrowers locked out of debt relief they’re eligible for,” Cardona said Tuesday.
Congress created the first income-driven plan in the 1990s, but few people took advantage until the Obama administration expanded eligibility, lowered monthly payments and shaved years off the path to forgiveness. The goal was to help more people manage their debt and avoid default.

Will this help or hurt the Democrats in November is anybody's guess. I would never vote for a Republican, regardless if I support all or most of the Democratic plans, and since I paid off my student loans decades ago, I have no iron in this pot.
 

Playball40

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After 20-25 years of payments, you aren't really 'forgiving' anything. All this is effectively doing is reducing the already ridiculously high interest rate. Still, better than nothing I guess.
 

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I'd prefer to simply cap repayment at some percentage of income above the poverty line rather than just a percentage of income.
 

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Still think we should tax university endowments - progressively, of course - to fund any student loan write off. The universities know their students can get large loans and exploit them.
 

southernhybrid

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After 20-25 years of payments, you aren't really 'forgiving' anything. All this is effectively doing is reducing the already ridiculously high interest rate. Still, better than nothing I guess.
So, if I have a 30 year mortgage and the bank decides to cancel the rest of my payments after 20 years, I'm getting nothing?

I think the article lacks a lot of details, so it's a bit difficult to understand how much this will help. I think the idea is to help people who are overwhelmed with high loan payments.

I agree that the interest rate should be lowered to close to zero. Maybe that will come later. Still, making the loan payments affordable is a good start.

Apparently, the federal program that was supposed to help people get help with their loan payments was poorly managed.

I'd like to see it become very easy to obtain loan forgiveness in exchange for working in areas where certain professionals are badly needed. Such programs are too complicated. That needs to change.
 

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I'd prefer to simply cap repayment at some percentage of income above the poverty line rather than just a percentage of income.
And an inverse proportional percentage related to the endowment size of the school, being paid for with an endowment tax.
 

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The comment section is full of a lot of angry people who don't want anyone to have loan forgiveness. I find that surprising since most surveys claims there is over 50% support for student loan forgiveness. The article should be available for anyone to read for at least two weeks, according to WaPo's gifting rules.
Includes a bit of resentment from people who endured crippling student debt and don't like the thought of other people getting out easy.
 

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Still think we should tax university endowments - progressively, of course - to fund any student loan write off. The universities know their students can get large loans and exploit them.

I still don't understand how they can charge so much for an education that students couldn't make a profit off of. I mean shouldn't the market dictate the value of the knowledge? If I'm paying a school to become a burger flipper and the market has no need for burger flippers at the time I enrolled you'd think I'd pay less for the education than someone who enrolled when burger flippers were in high demand.


These schools really ought to be left holding the bag on these loans with limits to their powers like any credit agency. This way they can write off their own make-believe losses.

Edit: And by holding the bag I mean the School borrows the money and lends it to the student. The students pay the school and the school pays back the loan. If the student defaults the school is left holding the bag.

The way the system is set up now gives the school no incentive to handle pricing responsibly since the students deal directly with the lender and the school gets the money no matter what (unless I'm mistaken).
 
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Jimmy Higgins

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The comment section is full of a lot of angry people who don't want anyone to have loan forgiveness. I find that surprising since most surveys claims there is over 50% support for student loan forgiveness. The article should be available for anyone to read for at least two weeks, according to WaPo's gifting rules.
Includes a bit of resentment from people who endured crippling student debt and don't like the thought of other people getting out easy.
To be fair, these people are also online whining about the Indians becoming the Guardians and promise to always call them The Tribe in some sort of protest.

Is it fair that I had to pay back my student loans? Well, it cost about $40k total for four years to go to a private school back when a degree had more value. What are they paying today for a lesser valued (in general) degree?

If they aren't paying loans, they are pumping money into the economy. That isn't a bad thing. After all, it isn't like they can afford to buy a house anyway even without the loans.
 

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The comment section is full of a lot of angry people who don't want anyone to have loan forgiveness. I find that surprising since most surveys claims there is over 50% support for student loan forgiveness. The article should be available for anyone to read for at least two weeks, according to WaPo's gifting rules.
Includes a bit of resentment from people who endured crippling student debt and don't like the thought of other people getting out easy.
To be fair, these people are also online whining about the Indians becoming the Guardians and promise to always call them The Tribe in some sort of protest.

Is it fair that I had to pay back my student loans? Well, it cost about $40k total for four years to go to a private school back when a degree had more value. What are they paying today for a lesser valued (in general) degree?

If they aren't paying loans, they are pumping money into the economy. That isn't a bad thing. After all, it isn't like they can afford to buy a house anyway even without the loans.
How on earth does that work?

If federal loans are being forgiven, that means the federal government has either less money to spend, or needs to tax taxpayers more to get to the same amount. Either way the total spend in the economy is the same.
 

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If federal loans are being forgiven, that means the federal government has either less money to spend, or needs to tax taxpayers more to get to the same amount.
Or the federal government needs to issue bonds to compensate for spending more money.
 

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If federal loans are being forgiven, that means the federal government has either less money to spend, or needs to tax taxpayers more to get to the same amount.
Or the federal government needs to issue bonds to compensate for spending more money.

Or the federal government can issue the loan to the school, not the student, and the school is left holding the bag if the student defaults on the loan. The school will be left with the tools to collect like any other credit agency.
 

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Or, just make state and community college free, like it is in most civilized countries.

...and forgive all student loans. Hell, pay them back some portion if they've paid in the last 5 years.
 

Politesse

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Or, just make state and community college free, like it is in most civilized countries
Thank you! Unfortunately we have been marching in the opposite direction for the past fifteen years. As other sources of funding fail to keep up with increasing costs, student tuition has skyrocketed to help schools make up the difference. Since this also means hiring fewer and less qualified staff and cutting programs, students are getting a worse product at greater personal cost with every passing year.
 

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An educated population is an asset to the nation, not just to the individual clutching a degree certificate.

If you view the entirety of human existence through the Reagan-Thatcher 'Economic Rationalism' lens, in which the only value anything has is determined by its ability to make money, you lose a vast swathe of reality.

In order to get the massive societal benefit of a tiny handful of geniuses, it is necessary to teach a vast army of students, many of whom will never make very much of themselves financially.

Even if it were not the case that financial success and genius are rarely correlated, it would be massively counterproductive to expect students to fund their education by borrowing against its anticipated future monetary value.

Lots of things are valuable, but cannot be monetised. Such things should be funded from progressive taxation of income, because income is a fairly good measure of the benefit a person is deriving from society. Education is one of those things; The employer of a well educated person likely benefits more financially from his degree, than the degree holder himself does. Let him pay his share. That employer's customers also benefit financially. Let them too pay their share. All of society benefits, to a greater or lesser extent, from the existence in that society of educated people.

Education is infrastructure. It allows society to grow. It should therefore be made as attractive as possible to obtain. Making it free at point of use, and funding it via general taxation, rather than by billing the recipient (who is far from being the only, or even major, beneficiary) is one effective way to make it more attractive.

Nobody should resile from getting an education because of financial worries, if we want the best for our society's future.
 

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The comment section is full of a lot of angry people who don't want anyone to have loan forgiveness. I find that surprising since most surveys claims there is over 50% support for student loan forgiveness. The article should be available for anyone to read for at least two weeks, according to WaPo's gifting rules.
Includes a bit of resentment from people who endured crippling student debt and don't like the thought of other people getting out easy.
The problem is people who suffered being responsible dislike seeing others get rewarded for irresponsibility.
 

Loren Pechtel

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Or, just make state and community college free, like it is in most civilized countries.

...and forgive all student loans. Hell, pay them back some portion if they've paid in the last 5 years.
I dislike free. Make it affordable.
 

bilby

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The comment section is full of a lot of angry people who don't want anyone to have loan forgiveness. I find that surprising since most surveys claims there is over 50% support for student loan forgiveness. The article should be available for anyone to read for at least two weeks, according to WaPo's gifting rules.
Includes a bit of resentment from people who endured crippling student debt and don't like the thought of other people getting out easy.
The problem is people who suffered being responsible dislike seeing others get rewarded for irresponsibility.
The problem is that misery loves company.

There's exactly nothing irresponsible about being given assistance, even if others in similar situations in the past were forced to extricate themselves, or go under.

Comes to that, there's nothing particularly responsible about helping yourself, when you have no other good options.

You appear to be using "responsible" to mean "allowing others to feel good about being selfish cunts who won't lift a finger to help someone who is struggling".
 

bilby

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Or, just make state and community college free, like it is in most civilized countries.

...and forgive all student loans. Hell, pay them back some portion if they've paid in the last 5 years.
I dislike free. Make it affordable.
Who gives a crap that you dislike free?

Free IS affordable. Anything more is unaffordable to someone.

You are seeking to justify being kind only to people above a certain level of wealth. Fuck that bullshit.

If I am charitable, I might forgive your inhumanity on the grounds of your being abjectly ignorant that there exist people for whom any cost greater than zero is unaffordable.
 

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The comment section is full of a lot of angry people who don't want anyone to have loan forgiveness. I find that surprising since most surveys claims there is over 50% support for student loan forgiveness. The article should be available for anyone to read for at least two weeks, according to WaPo's gifting rules.
Includes a bit of resentment from people who endured crippling student debt and don't like the thought of other people getting out easy.
The problem is people who suffered being responsible dislike seeing others get rewarded for irresponsibility.
Childish of them.

2018-not-fair.jpg
 

Metaphor

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The comment section is full of a lot of angry people who don't want anyone to have loan forgiveness. I find that surprising since most surveys claims there is over 50% support for student loan forgiveness. The article should be available for anyone to read for at least two weeks, according to WaPo's gifting rules.
Includes a bit of resentment from people who endured crippling student debt and don't like the thought of other people getting out easy.
The problem is people who suffered being responsible dislike seeing others get rewarded for irresponsibility.
Childish of them.

2018-not-fair.jpg
Rewarding people who voluntarily entered into a debt agreement and then did not pay back the debt is worse than not fair. It is morally dangerous.
 

Metaphor

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If federal loans are being forgiven, that means the federal government has either less money to spend, or needs to tax taxpayers more to get to the same amount.
Or the federal government needs to issue bonds to compensate for spending more money.
And, these bonds don't have interest rates and the principal does not need to be paid back?

Why tax people at all if we can just issue bonds?
 

bigfield

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If federal loans are being forgiven, that means the federal government has either less money to spend, or needs to tax taxpayers more to get to the same amount.
Or the federal government needs to issue bonds to compensate for spending more money.
And, these bonds don't have interest rates and the principal does not need to be paid back?

Why tax people at all if we can just issue bonds?
I was just pointing out that there is in fact another way to forgive loans without having less money to spend on other things.

You don't need to believe it's the correct course of action.
 

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Rewarding people who voluntarily entered into a debt agreement and then did not pay back the debt is worse than not fair. It is morally dangerous.
I would agree if they were, say, taking out a business loan to start a risky venture. But education is considered an inherent right by the entire civilized world; it should never have been the target of predatory loan tactics and academic price gouging in the first place. I'm not going to hold someone morally accountable for a bill that by right they should never have been charged.

Especially if those debts are becoming a threat to the entire economic structure of the nation and the value of its currency. "Fairness" will be of little comfort if the whole system falls to pieces.
 
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Toni

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Rewarding people who voluntarily entered into a debt agreement and then did not pay back the debt is worse than not fair. It is morally dangerous.
I would agree if they were, say, taking out a business loan to start a risky venture. But education is considered an inherent right by the entire civilized world; it should never have been the target of predatory loan tactics and academic price gouging in the first place. I'm not going to hold someone accountable for a bill that by right they should never have been charged.
Particularly loans that were taken out by 18 year olds who are only considered to be legal adults in the US because it means we can draft them and hand down adult length sentences, in return for which, they can vote and take in ruinous student debt that they have neither the maturity nor the experience, to fully understand. This, btw, is recognized by other lenders who won’t write say, a mortgage loan for an 18 year old.

I say: forgive most student debt, if not all of it and the state and federal government needs to step up its responsibility to fund education so that is truly affordable to all.

I write this as someone who never had a student loan to pay off and who, instead of taking trips to Europe or buying myself a vacation home on a lake—or both— instead paid almost all costs of her kids’ undergrad education, not just willingly but gladly. And feel bad that I couldn’t pay for law school without jeopardizing retirement.

So my skin in this game is moving just a tiny bit closer to a fair and just society. My kids won’t directly benefit, and I won’t but it’s the right thing to do.

For those who are all up in arms about kids getting ‘useless ‘ degrees: I agree. Let’s go after the for profit schools who lure vulnerable people in with promises of a quick and easy and affordable degree that is the key to financial security but in reality is expensive and nearly useless.
 

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Rewarding people who voluntarily entered into a debt agreement and then did not pay back the debt is worse than not fair. It is morally dangerous.
I would agree if they were, say, taking out a business loan to start a risky venture. But education is considered an inherent right by the entire civilized world;
Is it? How do you define 'civilised'? Where does the 'right' to education stop? Evidently not at high school?

it should never have been the target of predatory loan tactics and academic price gouging in the first place. I'm not going to hold someone morally accountable for a bill that by right they should never have been charged.
So, if you are not holding people morally accountable, shouldn't you personally be paying back their loans?

Especially if those debts are becoming a threat to the entire economic structure of the nation and the value of its currency. "Fairness" will be of little comfort if the whole system falls to pieces.
That's complete nonsense. Student debts have not made the US economy 'fall to pieces'.
 

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Rewarding people who voluntarily entered into a debt agreement and then did not pay back the debt is worse than not fair. It is morally dangerous.
I would agree if they were, say, taking out a business loan to start a risky venture. But education is considered an inherent right by the entire civilized world; it should never have been the target of predatory loan tactics and academic price gouging in the first place. I'm not going to hold someone accountable for a bill that by right they should never have been charged.
Particularly loans that were taken out by 18 year olds who are only considered to be legal adults in the US because it means we can draft them
Only the men.

and hand down adult length sentences, in return for which, they can vote and take in ruinous student debt that they have neither the maturity nor the experience, to fully understand. This, btw, is recognized by other lenders who won’t write say, a mortgage loan for an 18 year old.
So, you think no 18 year old should be allowed to be offered credit?

What age do you propose that people should be allowed to receive credit?

For those who are all up in arms about kids getting ‘useless ‘ degrees: I agree. Let’s go after the for profit schools who lure vulnerable people in with promises of a quick and easy and affordable degree that is the key to financial security but in reality is expensive and nearly useless.
The 'for profit' schools? What?

Surely all schools who offer useless degrees should have their ability to offer useless degrees curtailed?
 

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The problem is people who suffered being responsible dislike seeing others get rewarded for irresponsibility.
The problem is that misery loves company.

There's exactly nothing irresponsible about being given assistance, even if others in similar situations in the past were forced to extricate themselves, or go under.

Comes to that, there's nothing particularly responsible about helping yourself, when you have no other good options.

You appear to be using "responsible" to mean "allowing others to feel good about being selfish cunts who won't lift a finger to help someone who is struggling".

Person A lives moderately, pays their bills, saves.

Person B lives lavishly, doesn't save, gets help.

It happens over and over, the people who live moderately do not like being asked to help those who weren't as careful.
 

Loren Pechtel

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Or, just make state and community college free, like it is in most civilized countries.

...and forgive all student loans. Hell, pay them back some portion if they've paid in the last 5 years.
I dislike free. Make it affordable.
Who gives a crap that you dislike free?

Free IS affordable. Anything more is unaffordable to someone.

You are seeking to justify being kind only to people above a certain level of wealth. Fuck that bullshit.

If I am charitable, I might forgive your inhumanity on the grounds of your being abjectly ignorant that there exist people for whom any cost greater than zero is unaffordable.
Affordable -- like it was in the old days. Putting yourself through school without a pile of loans was a viable path.

Things that are free tend to get abused.
 

Loren Pechtel

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If federal loans are being forgiven, that means the federal government has either less money to spend, or needs to tax taxpayers more to get to the same amount.
Or the federal government needs to issue bonds to compensate for spending more money.
And, these bonds don't have interest rates and the principal does not need to be paid back?

Why tax people at all if we can just issue bonds?
I was just pointing out that there is in fact another way to forgive loans without having less money to spend on other things.

You don't need to believe it's the correct course of action.
Bonds = increase the federal debt = increase the interest paid on the federal debt = less money to spend on other things.
 

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The problem is people who suffered being responsible dislike seeing others get rewarded for irresponsibility.
The problem is that misery loves company.

There's exactly nothing irresponsible about being given assistance, even if others in similar situations in the past were forced to extricate themselves, or go under.

Comes to that, there's nothing particularly responsible about helping yourself, when you have no other good options.

You appear to be using "responsible" to mean "allowing others to feel good about being selfish cunts who won't lift a finger to help someone who is struggling".

Person A lives moderately, pays their bills, saves.

Person B lives lavishly, doesn't save, gets help.

It happens over and over, the people who live moderately do not like being asked to help those who weren't as careful.
Then they should stop trying to impose their lifestyle on others, and start living a little.

Needless sacrifice isn't noble, it's stupid. And complaining when others choose not to be stupid, because you suffered and therefore they should too, is being a selfish cunt.

Society is about people helping each other. If you opt out, that's your stupid choice - but not an excuse to insist that others should do the same.
 

bilby

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Or, just make state and community college free, like it is in most civilized countries.

...and forgive all student loans. Hell, pay them back some portion if they've paid in the last 5 years.
I dislike free. Make it affordable.
Who gives a crap that you dislike free?

Free IS affordable. Anything more is unaffordable to someone.

You are seeking to justify being kind only to people above a certain level of wealth. Fuck that bullshit.

If I am charitable, I might forgive your inhumanity on the grounds of your being abjectly ignorant that there exist people for whom any cost greater than zero is unaffordable.
Affordable -- like it was in the old days. Putting yourself through school without a pile of loans was a viable path.

Things that are free tend to get abused.
Ah yes, the old days.

When everything was perfect and wonderful.

It's just a shame that they never existed.
 

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Or, just make state and community college free, like it is in most civilized countries.

...and forgive all student loans. Hell, pay them back some portion if they've paid in the last 5 years.
I dislike free. Make it affordable.
Who gives a crap that you dislike free?

Free IS affordable. Anything more is unaffordable to someone.

You are seeking to justify being kind only to people above a certain level of wealth. Fuck that bullshit.

If I am charitable, I might forgive your inhumanity on the grounds of your being abjectly ignorant that there exist people for whom any cost greater than zero is unaffordable.
Affordable -- like it was in the old days. Putting yourself through school without a pile of loans was a viable path.

Things that are free tend to get abused.
Ah yes, the old days.

When everything was perfect and wonderful.

It's just a shame that they never existed.
Loren is right. For most middle class people, going to a public university was affordable on summer jobs and work study. I had two scholarships which I needed because my parents had very firm rules about no jobs during high school. I think I got maybe $300 total contribution from my parents. Zero student loans. My father refused to fill out student aid forms which required him disclosing his income. Family was middle class but just barely.

The people college was not affordable for were the people who needed to help support their family with the money they earned from summer/after school jobs.

The biggest reason that university was affordable for so many students was that states supported education much more substantially.
 

bilby

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Or, just make state and community college free, like it is in most civilized countries.

...and forgive all student loans. Hell, pay them back some portion if they've paid in the last 5 years.
I dislike free. Make it affordable.
Who gives a crap that you dislike free?

Free IS affordable. Anything more is unaffordable to someone.

You are seeking to justify being kind only to people above a certain level of wealth. Fuck that bullshit.

If I am charitable, I might forgive your inhumanity on the grounds of your being abjectly ignorant that there exist people for whom any cost greater than zero is unaffordable.
Affordable -- like it was in the old days. Putting yourself through school without a pile of loans was a viable path.

Things that are free tend to get abused.
Ah yes, the old days.

When everything was perfect and wonderful.

It's just a shame that they never existed.
Loren is right. For most middle class people, going to a public university was affordable on summer jobs and work study. I had two scholarships which I needed because my parents ts had very firm feelings about no jobs during high school. I think I hit maybe $300 total contribution from my parents ts. Zero student loans. Family was middle class but just barely.

The people college was not affordable for were the people who needed to help support their family with the money they earned from summer/after school jobs.

The biggest reason that university was affordable for so many students was that states supported education much more substantially.
When I went to university, the entire cost of the tuition was paid by the local education authority, who also gave me a lump sum at the beginning of each term to cover my living expenses.

Had I had dependants to support, I could have worked a weekend or after school job to do that, but I didn't, so I didn't.

That was the standard way in which higher education worked in the UK up until the end of the 1980s; The student's 'home' LEA (that is, the LEA in which they completed their secondary schooling, usually the same Local Authority to which their families paid rates*) paid an 'award' as a matter of entitlement, that consisted of tuition fees plus a 'grant' to cover basic living expenses.



*'Rates' were the local property tax charged to landowners at the local government level in the UK. Families living in rented accommodation didn't pay rates directly, (but their landlords would of course include the cost in their rents).
 

Worldtraveller

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What's the 'abuse' of free school? People go, can't cut it, and flunk out?

I'm going to put this simply so even Loren can understand it:

Who
theFuck
Cares?

It's like welfare. Ok, so 3% of people who get it probably are getting to much, gaming, the system, or otherwise taking advantage.

Who
theFuck
Cares?

It's worth it for the 97% that it helps.

Tell you what, Loren, let's go through every single state, local, and federal program that you use. If it ain't 100% perfect, you don't get to use it.

So that means, you can't drive on the roads, you don't get to use public health services. And maybe, you can stop posting on the internet. :D

Damn, I'm starting to like this system.
 

Toni

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What's the 'abuse' of free school? People go, can't cut it, and flunk out?

I'm going to put this simply so even Loren can understand it:

Who
theFuck
Cares?

It's like welfare. Ok, so 3% of people who get it probably are getting to much, gaming, the system, or otherwise taking advantage.

Who
theFuck
Cares?

It's worth it for the 97% that it helps.

Tell you what, Loren, let's go through every single state, local, and federal program that you use. If it ain't 100% perfect, you don't get to use it.

So that means, you can't drive on the roads, you don't get to use public health services. And maybe, you can stop posting on the internet. :D

Damn, I'm starting to like this system.
The solution to the 3% or more whose parents could afford to send them to school is simply to tax the highest income people at a higher rate to pay for their kid and the kids whose parents cannot afford to send them.

Education is like public roads: everyone benefits. I would go several steps further and say that an excellent publicly funded education open to all who can qualify is not only an important part of the US economy and democracy, but also is essential to the support and maintenance, and even the defense of our country.
 

Toni

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Or, just make state and community college free, like it is in most civilized countries.

...and forgive all student loans. Hell, pay them back some portion if they've paid in the last 5 years.
I dislike free. Make it affordable.
Who gives a crap that you dislike free?

Free IS affordable. Anything more is unaffordable to someone.

You are seeking to justify being kind only to people above a certain level of wealth. Fuck that bullshit.

If I am charitable, I might forgive your inhumanity on the grounds of your being abjectly ignorant that there exist people for whom any cost greater than zero is unaffordable.
Affordable -- like it was in the old days. Putting yourself through school without a pile of loans was a viable path.

Things that are free tend to get abused.
Ah yes, the old days.

When everything was perfect and wonderful.

It's just a shame that they never existed.
Loren is right. For most middle class people, going to a public university was affordable on summer jobs and work study. I had two scholarships which I needed because my parents ts had very firm feelings about no jobs during high school. I think I hit maybe $300 total contribution from my parents ts. Zero student loans. Family was middle class but just barely.

The people college was not affordable for were the people who needed to help support their family with the money they earned from summer/after school jobs.

The biggest reason that university was affordable for so many students was that states supported education much more substantially.
When I went to university, the entire cost of the tuition was paid by the local education authority, who also gave me a lump sum at the beginning of each term to cover my living expenses.

Had I had dependants to support, I could have worked a weekend or after school job to do that, but I didn't, so I didn't.

That was the standard way in which higher education worked in the UK up until the end of the 1980s; The student's 'home' LEA (that is, the LEA in which they completed their secondary schooling, usually the same Local Authority to which their families paid rates*) paid an 'award' as a matter of entitlement, that consisted of tuition fees plus a 'grant' to cover basic living expenses.



*'Rates' were the local property tax charged to landowners at the local government level in the UK. Families living in rented accommodation didn't pay rates directly, (but their landlords would of course include the cost in their rents).
And that's the way it should be.

My only fears regarding 100% funding of universities in the US are that the legislators will then feel that they can dictate curriculum and standards, etc. I also worry that it will give elite private schools or private schools in general an additional eclat. There is already far too much snobbishness with regards to public vs private education at every level in the US.
 

Playball40

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The comment section is full of a lot of angry people who don't want anyone to have loan forgiveness. I find that surprising since most surveys claims there is over 50% support for student loan forgiveness. The article should be available for anyone to read for at least two weeks, according to WaPo's gifting rules.
Includes a bit of resentment from people who endured crippling student debt and don't like the thought of other people getting out easy.
The problem is people who suffered being responsible dislike seeing others get rewarded for irresponsibility.
So people paying student loans today are "irresponsible" but when you did it, it was a good investment? What a crock.
 

Trausti

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Messages
9,784
The comment section is full of a lot of angry people who don't want anyone to have loan forgiveness. I find that surprising since most surveys claims there is over 50% support for student loan forgiveness. The article should be available for anyone to read for at least two weeks, according to WaPo's gifting rules.
Includes a bit of resentment from people who endured crippling student debt and don't like the thought of other people getting out easy.
The problem is people who suffered being responsible dislike seeing others get rewarded for irresponsibility.
So people paying student loans today are "irresponsible" but when you did it, it was a good investment? What a crock.
Wut? Isn’t it about folks who were responsible and paid back their loans resenting that their taxes will be used to write off the loans of others? Is the government going to refund our payments with interest? Or are we just suckers for being responsible?
 

Toni

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The comment section is full of a lot of angry people who don't want anyone to have loan forgiveness. I find that surprising since most surveys claims there is over 50% support for student loan forgiveness. The article should be available for anyone to read for at least two weeks, according to WaPo's gifting rules.
Includes a bit of resentment from people who endured crippling student debt and don't like the thought of other people getting out easy.
The problem is people who suffered being responsible dislike seeing others get rewarded for irresponsibility.
So people paying student loans today are "irresponsible" but when you did it, it was a good investment? What a crock.
Wut? Isn’t it about folks who were responsible and paid back their loans resenting that their taxes will be used to write off the loans of others? Is the government going to refund our payments with interest? Or are we just suckers for being responsible?
It’s like people who were children before there were vaccinations available to prevent measles, mumps, rubella, chickenpox, polio and more resenting kids today who can be vaccinated against these diseases.
 

Trausti

Deleted
Joined
Jul 30, 2005
Messages
9,784
The comment section is full of a lot of angry people who don't want anyone to have loan forgiveness. I find that surprising since most surveys claims there is over 50% support for student loan forgiveness. The article should be available for anyone to read for at least two weeks, according to WaPo's gifting rules.
Includes a bit of resentment from people who endured crippling student debt and don't like the thought of other people getting out easy.
The problem is people who suffered being responsible dislike seeing others get rewarded for irresponsibility.
So people paying student loans today are "irresponsible" but when you did it, it was a good investment? What a crock.
Wut? Isn’t it about folks who were responsible and paid back their loans resenting that their taxes will be used to write off the loans of others? Is the government going to refund our payments with interest? Or are we just suckers for being responsible?
It’s like people who were children before there were vaccinations available to prevent measles, mumps, rubella, chickenpox, polio and more resenting kids today who can be vaccinated against these diseases.
That analogy doesn’t work at all.
 

southernhybrid

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Georgia, US
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atheist
Or, just make state and community college free, like it is in most civilized countries
Thank you! Unfortunately we have been marching in the opposite direction for the past fifteen years. As other sources of funding fail to keep up with increasing costs, student tuition has skyrocketed to help schools make up the difference. Since this also means hiring fewer and less qualified staff and cutting programs, students are getting a worse product at greater personal cost with every passing year.
I checked yesterday to see how much the tuition was at our local technical college. It's 100 dollars a credit. I guess that's very affordable if one chooses a program that prepares them for a career that has the potential to earn a decent salary. If one has to borrow the money to get them the two year degree, their loan would be far less than the average new car loan, which is usually paid off in 4 to 6 years. Of course it would be good if two year colleges were free or less expensive, like perhaps 25 dollars per credit hour.

The college near me offers many non degree programs like truck driving, a large variety of medical tech skills, plumbing, electrician, a variety of IT tech certificates etc. I think young people need to consider what they want or can do for the rest of their lives to earn a decent salary. Plumbers, electricians, and many other careers that don't require a four year degree are extremely important, and with so many people retiring from those occupations, we will need a lot more.

I wish Americans would realize how valuable these people are. Perhaps more people would enter fields like that instead of being pushed to achieve a lib arts or business degree that might help one develop intellectually, but won't qualify you for a good job in the world that we live in now. Plus, with the internet and free non credit online courses, one can easily develop their knowledge in those areas, if that's what they want.

When I lived in NC during the 80s, I had a neighbor who had a four year degree. He didn't like his work, so he went back to school to become a plumber and then started up his own business. Americans need to appreciate all of these skilled occupations that don't require a 4 year degree. I'm sure there are plenty of people with advanced degrees who don't know how to fix a broken water pipe, repair their washing machine, or change out the electrical outlets in their homes. My point is that college has been pushed on lots of young people who might prefer to do work that only requires a certificate, a two year degree or an internship. There are so many who start college, only to drop out during the first semester. I know I'm going off topic, but it's always bothered me how some liberals with degrees look down on professions that don't require as much formal schooling.

I also wish that vocational programs had not been taken out of high schools. Back in the day, a high school student could graduate with enough courses to become LPNs, cosmetologists, plumbers, etc. I wonder if there's a high school left in the country that still offers vocational training. It seems as if all of those occupations now require community college. One can always go back to college at any point, if they want to change their line of work. My own sister was a high school grad, who decided to go to college when she was in. her late 30s. She obtained two degrees in late 30s and early 40s.

I'm fairly neutral on how much the government should help student loan debt, but I think there are many far more important issues right now. I would prefer that loan forgiveness be done on a case by case basis. I think it would be better to give forgiveness in return for some type of government service or by agreeing to work in an area where your skills are badly needed. Hardship cases should also get help as well as those who were scammed into paying high tuition for schools that don't give them the skills to get a decent job. I've yet to find an adult who doesn't have any loan debt who supports loan forgiveness for everyone. As far as the future goes, it would be great if community and stage colleges were more affordable. The total cost of loan forgiveness needs to be carefully analyzed before any big promises are made. Schools don't have to be free, but they should be affordable.

Most of my friends are Democrats who never went to college and they resent the loan forgiveness for all. I've come to think that it's not popular enough to happen. It seems to be a very divisive issue. There must be a way to compromise and help those most in need while expecting those who have very successful careers to continue to pay off their debt. I strongly support lowering the interest rates to close to zero. Why doesn't the government start from there? That would help a lot. Even in my day, loans were expected to take at about 10 years before they were paid off. If the interest rates were very low, most loans could easily be paid off within 15 years. Imo, compromise is how things get done. If only both sides of the aisle were willing to work together. :rolleyes:
 

Politesse

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Ah yes, the myth of the condescending college professor.

Offering people access to the careers and degrees they want to pursue does not prevent anyone from choosing a diferent path. We are not killing plumbing by making it possible to study history. The reasons why a younger generation is not choosing technical trades has nothing to do with liberal arts degrees being more available to them, and in fact, most trade school certificates are substantially cheaper to earn than full degrees, so if that were a real problem we would already be implementing the solution. We aren't killing plumbers. We're just making it possible for people to study history. If you have options, you can do either of those things, or neither. You can even do both at once, in a civilized society. Nothing about the job of an electrician or plumber is inhibited by holding a history degree, and it might even be useful information at times (the construction of our civil infrastructure occurred during history, as it turns out). But if you don't have options, you'll do the only thing you can, whether or not it is something you either want to do or have any aptitude for.
 

Trausti

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Messages
9,784
Most of my friends are Democrats who never went to college and they resent the loan forgiveness for all.
Yeah. It would be a massive wealth transfer from the working class to the middle class and higher. As well, the college graduate gets the income benefit of his degree - paid for by the working class.
 

Toni

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The comment section is full of a lot of angry people who don't want anyone to have loan forgiveness. I find that surprising since most surveys claims there is over 50% support for student loan forgiveness. The article should be available for anyone to read for at least two weeks, according to WaPo's gifting rules.
Includes a bit of resentment from people who endured crippling student debt and don't like the thought of other people getting out easy.
The problem is people who suffered being responsible dislike seeing others get rewarded for irresponsibility.
So people paying student loans today are "irresponsible" but when you did it, it was a good investment? What a crock.
Wut? Isn’t it about folks who were responsible and paid back their loans resenting that their taxes will be used to write off the loans of others? Is the government going to refund our payments with interest? Or are we just suckers for being responsible?
It’s like people who were children before there were vaccinations available to prevent measles, mumps, rubella, chickenpox, polio and more resenting kids today who can be vaccinated against these diseases.
That analogy doesn’t work at all.
How so?
 

Trausti

Deleted
Joined
Jul 30, 2005
Messages
9,784
The comment section is full of a lot of angry people who don't want anyone to have loan forgiveness. I find that surprising since most surveys claims there is over 50% support for student loan forgiveness. The article should be available for anyone to read for at least two weeks, according to WaPo's gifting rules.
Includes a bit of resentment from people who endured crippling student debt and don't like the thought of other people getting out easy.
The problem is people who suffered being responsible dislike seeing others get rewarded for irresponsibility.
So people paying student loans today are "irresponsible" but when you did it, it was a good investment? What a crock.
Wut? Isn’t it about folks who were responsible and paid back their loans resenting that their taxes will be used to write off the loans of others? Is the government going to refund our payments with interest? Or are we just suckers for being responsible?
It’s like people who were children before there were vaccinations available to prevent measles, mumps, rubella, chickenpox, polio and more resenting kids today who can be vaccinated against these diseases.
That analogy doesn’t work at all.
How so?
People took out loans. Some paid them back, as agreed. Others did not. So those who breached the agreement would be rewarded while those who were responsible are out the money they repaid. What suckers.
 

Toni

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Or, just make state and community college free, like it is in most civilized countries
Thank you! Unfortunately we have been marching in the opposite direction for the past fifteen years. As other sources of funding fail to keep up with increasing costs, student tuition has skyrocketed to help schools make up the difference. Since this also means hiring fewer and less qualified staff and cutting programs, students are getting a worse product at greater personal cost with every passing year.
I checked yesterday to see how much the tuition was at our local technical college. It's 100 dollars a credit. I guess that's very affordable if one chooses a program that prepares them for a career that has the potential to earn a decent salary. If one has to borrow the money to get them the two year degree, their loan would be far less than the average new car loan, which is usually paid off in 4 to 6 years. Of course it would be good if two year colleges were free or less expensive, like perhaps 25 dollars per credit hour.

The college near me offers many non degree programs like truck driving, a large variety of medical tech skills, plumbing, electrician, a variety of IT tech certificates etc. I think young people need to consider what they want or can do for the rest of their lives to earn a decent salary. Plumbers, electricians, and many other careers that don't require a four year degree are extremely important, and with so many people retiring from those occupations, we will need a lot more.

I wish Americans would realize how valuable these people are. Perhaps more people would enter fields like that instead of being pushed to achieve a lib arts or business degree that might help one develop intellectually, but won't qualify you for a good job in the world that we live in now. Plus, with the internet and free non credit online courses, one can easily develop their knowledge in those areas, if that's what they want.

When I lived in NC during the 80s, I had a neighbor who had a four year degree. He didn't like his work, so he went back to school to become a plumber and then started up his own business. Americans need to appreciate all of these skilled occupations that don't require a 4 year degree. I'm sure there are plenty of people with advanced degrees who don't know how to fix a broken water pipe, repair their washing machine, or change out the electrical outlets in their homes. My point is that college has been pushed on lots of young people who might prefer to do work that only requires a certificate, a two year degree or an internship. There are so many who start college, only to drop out during the first semester. I know I'm going off topic, but it's always bothered me how some liberals with degrees look down on professions that don't require as much formal schooling.

I also wish that vocational programs had not been taken out of high schools. Back in the day, a high school student could graduate with enough courses to become LPNs, cosmetologists, plumbers, etc. I wonder if there's a high school left in the country that still offers vocational training. It seems as if all of those occupations now require community college. One can always go back to college at any point, if they want to change their line of work. My own sister was a high school grad, who decided to go to college when she was in. her late 30s. She obtained two degrees in late 30s and early 40s.

I'm fairly neutral on how much the government should help student loan debt, but I think there are many far more important issues right now. I would prefer that loan forgiveness be done on a case by case basis. I think it would be better to give forgiveness in return for some type of government service or by agreeing to work in an area where your skills are badly needed. Hardship cases should also get help as well as those who were scammed into paying high tuition for schools that don't give them the skills to get a decent job. I've yet to find an adult who doesn't have any loan debt who supports loan forgiveness for everyone. As far as the future goes, it would be great if community and stage colleges were more affordable. The total cost of loan forgiveness needs to be carefully analyzed before any big promises are made. Schools don't have to be free, but they should be affordable.

Most of my friends are Democrats who never went to college and they resent the loan forgiveness for all. I've come to think that it's not popular enough to happen. It seems to be a very divisive issue. There must be a way to compromise and help those most in need while expecting those who have very successful careers to continue to pay off their debt. I strongly support lowering the interest rates to close to zero. Why doesn't the government start from there? That would help a lot. Even in my day, loans were expected to take at about 10 years before they were paid off. If the interest rates were very low, most loans could easily be paid off within 15 years. Imo, compromise is how things get done. If only both sides of the aisle were willing to work together. :rolleyes:
It's easy: higher tax on higher incomes.

As for appreciating trades and including trade schools as part of this plan of writing off student loans/free school: I agree completely.
As someone with a degree married to one of those condescending professors who isn't terribly good at a lot of home repairs, we deeply appreciate those who have skills in plumbing, carpentry, electrical wiring/repair, drywall, tiling, etc. that we do not. We deeply appreciate their skill and their willingness to do what is frankly a lot of hard work that they are unlikely to be able to continue doing into their 60's as many of us in less physically demanding lines of work are able to do. We know just enough to know the limits of our skills and expertise and are willing and even thrilled to be able to hire highly skilled professionals. I don't know anyone who does NOT appreciate the skills and the labor of those who work in trades. Which is vastly different than the fact that too many are far too ignorant to appreciate the skill, labor and hard work that goes into teaching at any level, university level no less than any other level and in some ways, more.

Kids today are very likely to graduate with over $100K in student debt if they attend a state school and have parental help/part time jobs to help pay their living expenses. I can tell you for certain that working one or several low paid part time jobs in order to support yourself while you take classes does indeed take time away from one's ability to focus on what should be your main job: going to school. To do so for 4 or more years and then to still graduate with $100K+ debt is an unfair burden that forces graduates to delay things like marriage, families, home ownership. This is not a choice we had to make when we were young. We merely had to be willing to endure being poor for about 6 years after undergrad years--so for at least 10 years.

It forces students to take jobs for $ instead of pursuing a lesser compensated career in areas where we desperately need people. I'm thinking specifically of areas such as social work, and mental health professionals and preschool teachers/early education instructors but there are others. These, btw, are needed just as urgently as we need more plumbers and electricians and carpenters and auto mechanics.
 

Toni

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Joined
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Messages
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The comment section is full of a lot of angry people who don't want anyone to have loan forgiveness. I find that surprising since most surveys claims there is over 50% support for student loan forgiveness. The article should be available for anyone to read for at least two weeks, according to WaPo's gifting rules.
Includes a bit of resentment from people who endured crippling student debt and don't like the thought of other people getting out easy.
The problem is people who suffered being responsible dislike seeing others get rewarded for irresponsibility.
So people paying student loans today are "irresponsible" but when you did it, it was a good investment? What a crock.
Wut? Isn’t it about folks who were responsible and paid back their loans resenting that their taxes will be used to write off the loans of others? Is the government going to refund our payments with interest? Or are we just suckers for being responsible?
It’s like people who were children before there were vaccinations available to prevent measles, mumps, rubella, chickenpox, polio and more resenting kids today who can be vaccinated against these diseases.
That analogy doesn’t work at all.
How so?
People took out loans. Some paid them back, as agreed. Others did not. So those who breached the agreement would be rewarded while those who were responsible are out the money they repaid. What suckers.
Having your loan forgiven is not breaching any agreement. The lender forgives the loan. This is not the same thing as the borrower skipping out on the loan.

Kids are born. Some are born when there were no vaccinations against measles, mumps, rubella, polio, chickenpox, etc. They got those diseases and some died or were permanently disabled because of them. Then there were vaccinations and those children whose parents were smart and able to get them vaccinated did not become ill from those preventable diseases. Some kids have stupid parents and unfortunately, they tend to get sick. Even more unfortunately, some kids cannot be vaccinated because they are undergoing treatment for childhood cancers or are otherwise immune suppressed and they get sick and die from things like chickenpox or measles instead of cancer which was in remission.

I grew up (mostly) with indoor plumbing, something my parents did not have as children. That is in no way unfair to them because they suffered from not having indoor plumbing.

My kids grew up with cable tv and cell phones and computers. That is in no way unfair to me because I did not have those things.

Keep in mind that most of those loans were taken out by kids who are too young to legally consume alcoholic beverages or to sign other kinds of contracts. Also, those loans cannot be discharged under most circumstances due to serious misfortune. Some are able to get their loans discharged if they can document permanent disability AND if they remain below the poverty line for a certain number of years.
 

Trausti

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Messages
9,784
Kids today are very likely to graduate with over $100K in student debt if they attend a state school and have parental help/part time jobs to help pay their living expenses. I can tell you for certain that working one or several low paid part time jobs in order to support yourself while you take classes does indeed take time away from one's ability to focus on what should be your main job: going to school. To do so for 4 or more years and then to still graduate with $100K+ debt is an unfair burden that forces graduates to delay things like marriage, families, home ownership. This is not a choice we had to make when we were young. We merely had to be willing to endure being poor for about 6 years after undergrad years--so for at least 10 years.
I don’t know why the public universities are not pressured to lower costs. (Oh, wait, yes I do. University employees make large $$$ donations to Dem causes so they cannot be criticized.). Andrew Yang floated the idea of requiring universities to charge a low credit hour if they wanted fed money. We should do that. We already do it with Medicare.
 
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