# Biden administration announces partial student loan forgiveness

#### Loren Pechtel

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
You're the one that is handwaiving here. It should be obvious the taxpayers are harmed, the only question is by how much.

People whose loans were forgiven aren't taxpayers anymore? Where do I sign up?
They're harmed, they're just benefited more than they are harmed.
How were you harmed when Trump gave the rich a tax cut that cost the approximate equivalent of the cost of student loan forgiveness?
You think I support that abomination?!?!

#### Toni

##### Contributor
So? You’re upset that some students had parents who were well enough off to provide tuition for their kids to give them the best start in life— You think that’s a bad thing?

Do you also think vaccinations are ineffective if they don’t hurt? Medicine doesn’t work unless it tastes bad?

You are correct that many 18 year olds are not as motivated as they could be to get the most out of (fill in the blank, including youth!). They are 18. Still kids. Not very mature. It’s a biology thing.

You want to punish everyone because…they didn’t suffer as much as you did?

That’s pretty messed up.
They weren't there to learn. Whatever degrees they earned, if they earned any, wouldn't be worth much in the market.
So you are both a mind reader and....omniscient? Do you prefer Tarot or crystal balls for your readings?

So talented! I had no idea!

#### Jarhyn

##### Wizard

You're the one that is handwaiving here. It should be obvious the taxpayers are harmed, the only question is by how much.

People whose loans were forgiven aren't taxpayers anymore? Where do I sign up?
They're harmed, they're just benefited more than they are harmed.
By this standard, you are harmed by breathing oxygen.
Non. Net positive effects (if that's what happens) does not mean you did not have negative effects.

Protectionist tariffs harm everybody overall, but a smaller, specialised group of people have a net benefit from them. But even that smaller, specialised group is harmed by the tariffs that benefit different, specialised groups.
Needing to get up early to go to my job to earn money to pay my bills involved a couple of negatives. The positive (pay, benefits) outweighed the negative (getting up early, commuting, the job itself). Are you saying it was wrong for me to go to work to earn money to pay my bills? Should I have stayed home instead, collecting welfare?
No, I'm saying just because you personally had a net benefit doesn't everyone had a net benefit and it doesn't mean you didn't give up something (get harmed) to get it.
My god—you need to stop harming yourself by posting in this forum immediately! Think of all the time and energy you have given up in order to get whatever gain you feel you derive from your participation here! Don’t forget to quit your job! Think of all the hours and hours you give up for a few measly dollars! Please stop harming yourself!!!

Of course that paragraph w as entirely facetious. No one wants you to quit posting or to quit your job. But everything we do is a trade off. We give up time in order to go to and perform our jobs, shop for food and other necessities, prepare meals, clean up after, etc. We benefit from all of those things, as well. I’m about to go outside and do some yard work which I will pay for with sore muscles and stiff joints and sun exposure. I’m ‘harming’ myself in your parlance. I’m also benefitting from the exercise, fresh air, flowers and vegetables I will enjoy and eventually when I sell my home, the value of the property will increase because of my labors. I see it as a net benefit because, despite some expected stiffness and soreness ( harms) and loss of time I could spend conversing with you here ( another harm), I find it worthwhile and enjoyable.

Everything is a trade off. Even breathing.

Society benefits from having a well educated population. Society should bear those costs.
I understand there are tradeoffs to everything. You are discounting to zero the things given up on the other side of the equation when debts owed to the US are needlessly forgiven.
Needlessly?
Yes.

What is needless is for the government to loan its citizens money at any interest rate >0% in order to procure an education at a public university.
You object to loaning the money at all. You want it to be free.

The citizens are already paying for the university.
Citizens are partly paying for public universities. They're not completely paying, otherwise there wouldn't be any loans at all.
You are very fond of telling other people what they think and want. You actually are quite wrong in..well, every case I can bring to mind.

There is nothing wrong with lending money interest free. I borrowed money to purchase an automobile and get this: the 6 year loan is interest free. Actually, that's what I did for the previous car as well.

#### atrib

##### Veteran Member
Compare the number of positions asking for a certain degree with the number of people who want that degree. The state should provide more funding for degrees where the ratio of ask to want is higher.

The government is definitely not smart enough to know what courses are valuable it will be valuable in the future.
Note that I'm talking degrees, not specific classes.
The government is t really a good predictor of where the economy will be in 4 or 10 years. Think of all the kinds of jobs there are now that didn’t exist 15 years ago.

Unless you are going into a very specific field, your major doesn’t matter much. Sure, it does if you want to be an accountant or a nurse or a teacher. Beyond that? Not so much.
Really, now? You don't realize there are degrees with very poor job prospects because there's so little demand for the skill? Such basically worthless degrees are a fair chunk of the student loan problem.
Asimov wrote a story called Profession (in the book Nine Tomorrows) that is staged in the far future where humans have the ability to educate people almost instantaneously by downloading information directly to their brains. Children show up at their local education center twice, once for Reading Day, where they are programmed to read, and then again on Profession Day where they are taught a skill. There is a huge demand among youngsters to get programmed with the most lucrative subjects that will give them well-paying jobs in the off-world colonies. And then we discover what the cost of this convenience (of getting educated instantly) is. Its a good read, and very relevant to the argument you are trying to make here, and you should check it out if you can. Its also an excellent story.

Education is not about creating programmed robots to run our factories and stores, or produce things, it is much, much bigger than that. Education is about teaching people how to think and solve problems, along with a foundation in the fundamentals of some aspect of reality that they find interesting. Education is about liberating the mind and giving it the wings to fly. You are so focused on making sure that every dollar is paid back and nobody gets a "free ride" that you fail to see the bigger picture.

#### atrib

##### Veteran Member
What have I said in this thread that is 'economically illiterate'?
Basically everything. Two premises that stand out as economic illiteracy are
1) that forgiveness of debt repayment has the same effect on the debtor as a tax cut (bilby’s main point}, and
That was your interpretation of bilby's claim, and I didn't even say it was wrong. I said calling them the same thing was nuts.

2) the forgiveness of the debt by gov’t necessarily harms taxpayers.
Of course it harms taxpayers. You have simply decided the harm doesn't count.
It ‘harms’ taxpayers only if all you are concerned with is money
Money is certainly a concern but it is more than that. You damage the moral fabric of society when you use somebody else's money to forgive debts because you personally feel sorry for delinquent debtors.
The government is not forgiving debt because they feel sorry for the debtors. They are doing it because forgiving debt related to education is beneficial to society. That is the primary role of government - to make the lives of the community better.

and how it balances directly and not if you disregard the benefits realized not merely for the student borrower but for society in general—because of the services provided directly by the ability of the student to be a doctor, lawyer, teacher, banker, whatever —and benefit in the increase in taxes the student borrower will pay as they earn more money than without a degree.
You are very confused. You are counting the value of the education as a benefit in favour of forgiving the debt. But the value of the education has already been realised when the person got it.
Wrong. The value of the education appears when the person receiving the education goes on to do things that are beneficial to the community he or she is part of, like inventing a cure for a disease, or developing technology that makes our lives better, or designing a new road that provides access to an isolated rural community, or writing a book that entertains millions, or becoming a teacher or stay home mom/dad who teaches their children how to be good citizens of the planet. Education is the fertilizer that allows people to achieve their potential towards making the world a better place.

Forgiving debt does not cause the value of the education to appear.

Harder to quantify directly but real nonetheless is the benefit to society of having a more educated population. One of the most concrete benefits in recent times is the differences in voter behavior depending on level of education. Another is differences in behavior with regards to mask wearing and vaccination.
Again, you are confused. If you want to talk about the value of education and why society should make it free to end users, you can have that conversation, but I am talking about the forgiveness of debts with taxpayer money.
See above. The role of government is to better the lives of the community, and education is a big part of accomplishing that goal. You cannot talk about debt forgiveness without the broader context of the value of education. And we shouldn't be engaging in the practice of forcing young people to remain in debt for decades simply because that is how it has been done in the past. "We should continue to punish people by making them stay in debt because that is how we have always done it" is a piss-poor argument. And downright stupid.

#### Toni

##### Contributor
What have I said in this thread that is 'economically illiterate'?
Basically everything. Two premises that stand out as economic illiteracy are
1) that forgiveness of debt repayment has the same effect on the debtor as a tax cut (bilby’s main point}, and
That was your interpretation of bilby's claim, and I didn't even say it was wrong. I said calling them the same thing was nuts.

2) the forgiveness of the debt by gov’t necessarily harms taxpayers.
Of course it harms taxpayers. You have simply decided the harm doesn't count.
It ‘harms’ taxpayers only if all you are concerned with is money
Money is certainly a concern but it is more than that. You damage the moral fabric of society when you use somebody else's money to forgive debts because you personally feel sorry for delinquent debtors.
The government is not forgiving debt because they feel sorry for the debtors. They are doing it because forgiving debt related to education is beneficial to society. That is the primary role of government - to make the lives of the community better.

and how it balances directly and not if you disregard the benefits realized not merely for the student borrower but for society in general—because of the services provided directly by the ability of the student to be a doctor, lawyer, teacher, banker, whatever —and benefit in the increase in taxes the student borrower will pay as they earn more money than without a degree.
You are very confused. You are counting the value of the education as a benefit in favour of forgiving the debt. But the value of the education has already been realised when the person got it.
Wrong. The value of the education appears when the person receiving the education goes on to do things that are beneficial to the community he or she is part of, like inventing a cure for a disease, or developing technology that makes our lives better, or designing a new road that provides access to an isolated rural community, or writing a book that entertains millions, or becoming a teacher or stay home mom/dad who teaches their children how to be good citizens of the planet. Education is the fertilizer that allows people to achieve their potential towards making the world a better place.

Forgiving debt does not cause the value of the education to appear.

Harder to quantify directly but real nonetheless is the benefit to society of having a more educated population. One of the most concrete benefits in recent times is the differences in voter behavior depending on level of education. Another is differences in behavior with regards to mask wearing and vaccination.
Again, you are confused. If you want to talk about the value of education and why society should make it free to end users, you can have that conversation, but I am talking about the forgiveness of debts with taxpayer money.
See above. The role of government is to better the lives of the community, and education is a big part of accomplishing that goal. You cannot talk about debt forgiveness without the broader context of the value of education. And we shouldn't be engaging in the practice of forcing young people to remain in debt for decades simply because that is how it has been done in the past. "We should continue to punish people by making them stay in debt because that is how we have always done it" is a piss-poor argument. And downright stupid.
I would like this post X1000 if I could.

#### TSwizzle

##### Let's Go Brandon!
The government is not forgiving debt because they feel sorry for the debtors. They are doing it because forgiving debt related to education is beneficial to society. That is the primary role of government - to make the lives of the community better.
What utter male bovine excrement. IF, the government "forgives debt" it's down to the gobby extremists that are screaming about it and it's a political decision, nothing to do with society. The only "benefit" society gets from the assholes that borrowed $100K+ to goof off in college for a four year degree in gender studies and liberal art is we get plenty Uber drivers and Starbucks baristas. #### bilby ##### Fair dinkum thinkum The government is not forgiving debt because they feel sorry for the debtors. They are doing it because forgiving debt related to education is beneficial to society. That is the primary role of government - to make the lives of the community better. What utter male bovine excrement. IF, the government "forgives debt" it's down to the gobby extremists that are screaming about it and it's a political decision, nothing to do with society. The only "benefit" society gets from the assholes that borrowed$100K+ to goof off in college for a four year degree in gender studies and liberal art is we get plenty Uber drivers and Starbucks baristas.
This is your brain on FoxNews.

Remember, kids: Not even once!

#### Jarhyn

##### Wizard
Loren, I'm going to be frank with you: if I could go back to school and pick up more STEM without a deadline of social viability, I would go back and I might never leave.

The result of this would be... Gosh. I don't even know how far I could take that!

Some day I hope to have the power to create technology that is, in fact, art.

The government is not forgiving debt because they feel sorry for the debtors. They are doing it because forgiving debt related to education is beneficial to society. That is the primary role of government - to make the lives of the community better.
What utter male bovine excrement. IF, the government "forgives debt" it's down to the gobby extremists that are screaming about it and it's a political decision, nothing to do with society. The only "benefit" society gets from the assholes that borrowed \$100K+ to goof off in college for a four year degree in gender studies and liberal art is we get plenty Uber drivers and Starbucks baristas.
This is your brain on FoxNews.

Remember, kids: Not even once!
Ugh... Occasionally I expose the cut and it's almost always something toxic...

Personally, I prefer my Starbucks baristas and my Uber drivers at the very least to be kind enough to call me by my preferred pronouns, and to not ask me whether chemtrails are real.