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Biden expels Russian diplomats and imposes sanctions

Copernicus

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Vladimir Putin no longer has a friend in the White House. He got away with four years of cyberattacks and meddling in our domestic politics, but now the chickens have come back to roost. There will also be actions taken that are not announced, but the public actions are fairly mild and targeted largely to the organizations and individuals that were most involved in the aggressive acts against the US. The expelled diplomats will be those involved in espionage activities, and the Russian companies will be those that played a role in the Solarwinds hack and election meddling. Russia will try to retaliate, but this is what Putin had to know would happen after his BFF left office. So Biden has left options for strengthening economic sanctions, if the aggressive behavior continues. The question is when and how the downward spiral in relations with Russia will end. Both sides will eventually have to find ways to establish a stable working relationship. Right now, that seems impossible. Biden has proposed a summit meeting to discuss differences, but Putin may not be ready for that.

See: US expels Russian diplomats, imposes sanctions for hacking
 

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I like to keep an open mind. Are we absolutely sure it wasn't a 400-pound genius sitting in bed and playing with his computer?

(Actually...substitute turd for genius and that's Trump's confession.)
 

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that article said:
The Biden administration's decision to withdraw U.S. troops from Afghanistan is a wise and morally courageous one.... Previous U.S. "strategy" in Afghanistan was a kind of zombie policy: in reality dead, but still walking around because nobody in Washington could bring themselves to bury it.

... [But] Biden has stated that the new sanctions against Russia announced today have been imposed for three reasons and all three of them are wrong.

The Solarwinds hack ... was an espionage operation in cyberspace, of a kind that the United States has openly acknowledged carrying out against Russia and other states. All major states conduct this kind of espionage, and it has never previously been made a cause of sanctions. The Biden administration is therefore introducing a new and very dangerous factor into international relations. Moreover, America's ally Israel has just carried out an open act of cyber-sabotage against Iran in a transparent effort to destroy U.S. talks with Iran without a word of Washington condemnation in response. Is this what a "ruled-based international order" looks like?

... [And] the whole allegation [that Russia placed a bounty on U.S. soldiers] seems utterly counterintuitive. Does the Taliban really need Russian encouragement to attack US troops? And why should Russia engage in such a strategically pointless and provocative action?

Most important of all, if their confidence in this accusation is only "low to moderate," why is the Biden administration talking about it at all in connection with sanctions? Are wild and unproven accusations a responsible way to conduct U.S. policy? One area where the United States needs and might even get important Russian help is in trying to maintain an Afghan peace settlement and prevent an outright Taliban victory. This statement is no sort of way to seek such cooperation.

These sanctions will drive Russia still further into the arms of China....

Finally ... If President Zelensky of Ukraine decides that Washington's hostility to Russia is so absolute that he can depend on it for support in a war, then he may make the mistake of President Saakashvili of Georgia in August 2008 and try to resolve the Donbas issue by force.

The United States will then be forced to choose between abandoning Ukraine and going to war with Russia (and we know which of these choices Beijing would like Washington to take). Almost certainly, as in August 2008, the United States will abandon its "ally." And then, if these latest sanctions have helped to convince Moscow that U.S. hostility is so implacable and unchanging that Russia has nothing to lose, the Russian army will have no incentive to stop at the Donbas. The result will be an acute humiliation for Washington, with dangerous wider implications.
The article has a "ring of truth," but lacking expertise, I like to check on the messenger. Responsiblestatecraft.Org gets financial help BOTH from George Soros and Charles Koch! It's hated by some right-wingers; that's a good sign. The President and Founder  Andrew Bacevich seems to be qualified and very reasonable.
 

Copernicus

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I found the article to contain a number of strawman arguments against Biden's measured response to the Solarwinds attack and election interference, both of which required action on Biden's part. (Yes, it was definitely an "attack", and the author of the article likely knows why it would be considered so.) The idea that sanctions are ineffective is easy to disprove. Getting the sanctions dropped has been one of Putin's primary goals since his intervention in the 2016 election, where the winning candidate had a campaign manager who passed information on the campaign to Russian intelligence operative Konstantin Kilimnik. If the sanctions were ineffective, Putin would never have gone to such lengths to fight them. Moreover, the ban on investment in the Russian debt is far more damaging than the sanctions on individuals. That is where the real bite is in Biden's actions.

It should be noted that the author of this opinion piece, Anatol Lieven, may not be an entirely unbiased source. He is a member of the  Valdai discussion club in Russia, which has close ties to Putin and other Russian government officials. This is not to say that his credentials in the area are weak or that his article shouldn't be considered. He is a respected scholar. Here is what Wikipedia has to say about his club:

The Valdai Discussion Club is a Moscow-based think tank and discussion forum, established in 2004. It is named after Lake Valdai, which is located close to Veliky Novgorod, where the Club’s first meeting took place. In 2014, the management of the Club was transferred to the Valdai Club Foundation, established in 2011 by the Council on Foreign and Defence Policy, the Russian International Affairs Council, Moscow State Institute of International Relations, and Higher School of Economics.

OVERVIEW

The Valdai conference is closely linked with Russian President Vladimir Putin, who has met with the participants of the Valdai Club’s annual meetings every year since its founding. Among many other Russian Government officials attending Valdai meetings are Dmitry Medvedev, Prime Minister and former President; Sergey Ivanov, former Chief of Staff of the Presidential Executive Office; Sergey Lavrov, Minister of Foreign Affairs; Sergey Shoygu, Minister of Defence; and others.

Daniel W. Drezner, professor of international politics at the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University, describes Valdai as "a swanky high-level conference put on by the Russian elite." Drezner describes Valdai as "the highest-profile Russian equivalent to Davos" and writes that the chief value to attendees is the ability to determine the official line of the Russian government, although attendance also risks "greater legitimacy on a government that has been accused of some less-than-legitimate activities as of late." Nikolay Petrov of the Carnegie Moscow Center identified Valdai as "a project used as blatant propaganda by the Kremlin" while Russian sociologist Lilia Shevtsova criticized the Valdai conferences in an article entitled "Putin's Useful Idiots." Marcel H. Van Herpen identifies Valdai as a soft power effort by the Kremlin in service of Russian foreign policy goals, with Russian leadership using the conference in a bid to (1) gain goodwill among Western intellectuals, (2) create networking opportunities between Russian and Western elites, and (3) "create a testing ground for the Kremlin's foreign policy initiatives." Angus Roxburgh notes that RIA Novosti was important to the establishment of Valdai during Putin's second term, and that the conference plays a key role in the Russian government's effort to burnish Putin's image and influence outsiders...
 

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I found the article to contain a number of strawman arguments against Biden's measured response to the Solarwinds attack and election interference, both of which required action on Biden's part. (Yes, it was definitely an "attack", and the author of the article likely knows why it would be considered so.) The idea that sanctions are ineffective is easy to disprove. Getting the sanctions dropped has been one of Putin's primary goals since his intervention in the 2016 election, where the winning candidate had a campaign manager who passed information on the campaign to Russian intelligence operative Konstantin Kilimnik. If the sanctions were ineffective, Putin would never have gone to such lengths to fight them. Moreover, the ban on investment in the Russian debt is far more damaging than the sanctions on individuals. That is where the real bite is in Biden's actions.

It should be noted that the author of this opinion piece, Anatol Lieven, may not be an entirely unbiased source. He is a member of the  Valdai discussion club in Russia, which has close ties to Putin and other Russian government officials. This is not to say that his credentials in the area are weak or that his article shouldn't be considered. He is a respected scholar. Here is what Wikipedia has to say about his club:

The Valdai Discussion Club is a Moscow-based think tank and discussion forum, established in 2004. It is named after Lake Valdai, which is located close to Veliky Novgorod, where the Club’s first meeting took place. In 2014, the management of the Club was transferred to the Valdai Club Foundation, established in 2011 by the Council on Foreign and Defence Policy, the Russian International Affairs Council, Moscow State Institute of International Relations, and Higher School of Economics.

OVERVIEW

The Valdai conference is closely linked with Russian President Vladimir Putin, who has met with the participants of the Valdai Club’s annual meetings every year since its founding. Among many other Russian Government officials attending Valdai meetings are Dmitry Medvedev, Prime Minister and former President; Sergey Ivanov, former Chief of Staff of the Presidential Executive Office; Sergey Lavrov, Minister of Foreign Affairs; Sergey Shoygu, Minister of Defence; and others.

Daniel W. Drezner, professor of international politics at the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University, describes Valdai as "a swanky high-level conference put on by the Russian elite." Drezner describes Valdai as "the highest-profile Russian equivalent to Davos" and writes that the chief value to attendees is the ability to determine the official line of the Russian government, although attendance also risks "greater legitimacy on a government that has been accused of some less-than-legitimate activities as of late." Nikolay Petrov of the Carnegie Moscow Center identified Valdai as "a project used as blatant propaganda by the Kremlin" while Russian sociologist Lilia Shevtsova criticized the Valdai conferences in an article entitled "Putin's Useful Idiots." Marcel H. Van Herpen identifies Valdai as a soft power effort by the Kremlin in service of Russian foreign policy goals, with Russian leadership using the conference in a bid to (1) gain goodwill among Western intellectuals, (2) create networking opportunities between Russian and Western elites, and (3) "create a testing ground for the Kremlin's foreign policy initiatives." Angus Roxburgh notes that RIA Novosti was important to the establishment of Valdai during Putin's second term, and that the conference plays a key role in the Russian government's effort to burnish Putin's image and influence outsiders...

Sounds like a long view on Russia's part. Befriend wealthy westerners, offer opportunities for mutually beneficial cooperation, encourage them to adopt the means used by Russian oligarchs to appropriate all the wealth in the country, and eventually and insidiously, pervert American democracy into a caricature of Russian dictatorship with an "economy" owned by oligarchs and mobs.
 

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And bounty story, they don't even hide their confidence is "low to moderate".
Some raghead apparently found a way to get from local prison to a US one by bullshiting about bounties.
 

Copernicus

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Attack the messenger, not the substance, typical.

Actually, I didn't attack the messenger by documenting an influence on his perspective. It is quite legitimate to point that out. I also called him a respected scholar whose views should be considered. His ties to the Putin regime should also be considered.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/in-pun...age-11618651800?mod=searchresults_pos1&page=1

Looks like a lot of experts disagree with our resident linguist.

This issue has nothing to do with language, so it is you who is attacking the messenger here. Thank you for the reference, but I do not have a subscription to that paywall. What I could see of your article did not go into enough detail for me to respond to it.

And bounty story, they don't even hide their confidence is "low to moderate".
Some raghead apparently found a way to get from local prison to a US one by bullshiting about bounties.

If Biden had behaved like your government propagandists, he would have simply kept harping on the bounties story. Instead, he walked it back. Why would he do that? This behavior may appear strange to a Russian, but the current administration is concerned about projecting an image of being balanced and accurate when it comes to statements about the Russian government. So this had the effect of toning down a story that had made a lot of Americans outraged. That was actually demonstrating that the Biden administration isn't interested in just smearing Russia. There are enough bad stories about Russian behavior that are entirely accurate and well known. This one doesn't carry the same degree of confidence that other stories do, e.g. Putin's several attempts to assassinate political enemies, his egregious meddling in US elections, his cyberwarfare hacks, or his unprovoked invasion of Ukraine.
 

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Bottom line, there was no bounty, there was no cyber attack, election meddling properly qualified as election influencing and order of magnitude more benign than what US does in Russia, the latest shit in Ukraine is a work of Ukraine itself and you have to thank Russia for military buildup because otherwise these hotheads in Ukraine would put you in awkward position.
 
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Copernicus

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Bottom line, there was no bounty, there was no cyber attack, election meddling properly qualified as election influencing and order of magnitude more benign than what US does in Russia, the latest shit in Ukraine is a work of Ukraine itself and you have to thank Russia for military buildup because otherwise these hotheads in Ukraine would put you in awkward position.

That accurately describes the location from which you pulled those assertions. The bounties are unconfirmed. That does not mean they didn't happen. The Solarwinds hack has much more solid intelligence behind it. And Russian interference, including collusion between the Trump campaign and Russian intelligence (via Manafort -> Kilimnik) has been known for a long time, not to mention the interference by Russia in elections in Europe and elsewhere. Your gaslighting on Ukraine probably rises above the other gaslighting, but we've all become accustomed to that.

And, in a blast from the past, those two bumbling FSB "tourists" with multiple passports from various countries, Petrov and Boshirov, are back in the news. That's right. Literally a blast. In Czechia.

Salisbury poisoning suspects 'linked to Czech blast'
 

Copernicus

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Attack the messenger, not the substance, typical.

This isn't attack the messenger, it's attack the credentials of the expert.

To be clear, nobody actually attacked the credentials of the expert either. I called him a respected scholar and said that his views should be considered. He had excellent credentials for the subject he was writing about. What wasn't obvious was that he was part of a circle of scholars that has been hosted by the Putin regime for years. That bias was not revealed in the article, but it could be found by looking into his background. I was surprised that he didn't seem to think that the sanctions were effective, even though Putin had spent great effort for years to get them rescinded, even going so far as to meddle directly in US elections. What led me to look up the author's background was that the article sounded less balanced to me than I would have expected from someone with credentials like that.
 

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Bottom line, there was no bounty, there was no cyber attack, election meddling properly qualified as election influencing and order of magnitude more benign than what US does in Russia, the latest shit in Ukraine is a work of Ukraine itself and you have to thank Russia for military buildup because otherwise these hotheads in Ukraine would put you in awkward position.

Bottom line is that there is not definitive evidence of a bounty. At this time. On the other hand, there is much evidence of Russia's harassment of Ukraine. And attempts to meddle with our elections.
 

barbos

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Bottom line, there was no bounty, there was no cyber attack, election meddling properly qualified as election influencing and order of magnitude more benign than what US does in Russia, the latest shit in Ukraine is a work of Ukraine itself and you have to thank Russia for military buildup because otherwise these hotheads in Ukraine would put you in awkward position.

Bottom line is that there is not definitive evidence of a bounty.
That's nice. Should we expect apologies from MSM?
At this time. On the other hand, there is much evidence of Russia's harassment of Ukraine.
Nope, wrong again.
And attempts to meddle with our elections.
Not to a larger degree that US does in Russia.
 

Elixir

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That's nice. Should we expect apologies from MSM?

No. The conclusion that Russia perpetrated that attack was reasonable given the evidence available, even if it wasn't conclusive. Russia has been a 100% malevolent. destructive influence on American society and American interests since the end of WWII, that, combined with the fact of their known capabilities, is sufficient to point the finger squarely at them.
 

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That's nice. Should we expect apologies from MSM?

I can't recall any article in the MSM that claimed there was definitive evidence of bounties. It was always clear that reports of bounties were based on rumors and leaks from the intelligence community during the Trump administration. Biden said he would raise the issue with Putin, which he did. But he has also made a point of saying that the intelligence reports were not based on strong evidence. Now the MSM is also updating its reporting on the the claims. Russia, of course, denies the charges, but the credibility of the Russian government has been ruined by past behavior that it continues to gaslight about even today--e.g. Putin's assassination campaigns, election meddling in the US and elsewhere, the invasion of Ukraine, etc.
 

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That's nice. Should we expect apologies from MSM?

I can't recall any article in the MSM that claimed there was definitive evidence of bounties.
Really? They were foaming as if it was a scientific fact.

but the credibility of the Russian government has been ruined by past behavior that it continues to gaslight about even today--e.g. Putin's assassination campaigns, election meddling in the US and elsewhere, the invasion of Ukraine, etc.
I will give "assassination campaign". The rest is on MSM.
 

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That's nice. Should we expect apologies from MSM?

No. The conclusion that Russia perpetrated that attack was reasonable given the evidence available, even if it wasn't conclusive.
Relly? Fucking raghead lied to get off the afghan prison and, that's your evidence. You have been in Afhganistran for 20 years and have not learned a single thing.
Russia has been a 100% malevolent. destructive influence on American society and American interests since the end of WWII, that, combined with the fact of their known capabilities, is sufficient to point the finger squarely at them.
So did US.
 

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Attack the messenger, not the substance

OK.
Anatol Lieven is a professor in Georgetown University’s School of Foreign Service in Qatar. He is also a visiting professor in the War Studies Department of King’s College London, a senior fellow of the New America Foundation in Washington DC, and a member of the Valdai discussion club in Russia.

The story is that a Russian asset that resides in Russia wrote something pro-Russia. Film at 11.
 

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but the credibility of the Russian government has been ruined by past behavior that it continues to gaslight about even today--e.g. Putin's assassination campaigns, election meddling in the US and elsewhere, the invasion of Ukraine, etc.
I will give "assassination campaign". The rest is on MSM.

Yes, those stories and the assassination campaign have all been "on MSM". That's actually what the MSM does--report the news. And it took a long time for you to come around to the position that you could "give" on the assassination campaign. After they published the pictures of the two Russian "tourists" who carried out the attack on the Skripals, you saw it was hopeless to deny the obvious. But you are still gaslighting on the other stories.
 

barbos

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OK.
Anatol Lieven is a professor in Georgetown University’s School of Foreign Service in Qatar. He is also a visiting professor in the War Studies Department of King’s College London, a senior fellow of the New America Foundation in Washington DC, and a member of the Valdai discussion club in Russia.

The story is that a Russian asset that resides in Russia wrote something pro-Russia. Film at 11.
He is a british guy living/working in US I understand.
 

barbos

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but the credibility of the Russian government has been ruined by past behavior that it continues to gaslight about even today--e.g. Putin's assassination campaigns, election meddling in the US and elsewhere, the invasion of Ukraine, etc.
I will give "assassination campaign". The rest is on MSM.

Yes, those stories and the assassination campaign have all been "on MSM". That's actually what the MSM does--report the news. And it took a long time for you to come around to the position that you could "give" on the assassination campaign. After they published the pictures of the two Russian "tourists" who carried out the attack on the Skripals, you saw it was hopeless to deny the obvious. But you are still gaslighting on the other stories.
No, I am reporting that US intelligence finally admitted that their bounty data is of "low to medium" confidence. Not even "high confidence" and "high confidence" is not really that high actually if you look at their definition.
Again, MSM has a habit of forgetting about stories where they were wrong. This is because there is nobody who can hold them accountable when it comes to Russia.
 

Copernicus

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Yes, those stories and the assassination campaign have all been "on MSM". That's actually what the MSM does--report the news. And it took a long time for you to come around to the position that you could "give" on the assassination campaign. After they published the pictures of the two Russian "tourists" who carried out the attack on the Skripals, you saw it was hopeless to deny the obvious. But you are still gaslighting on the other stories.
No, I am reporting that US intelligence finally admitted that their bounty data is of "low to medium" confidence. Not even "high confidence" and "high confidence" is not really that high actually if you look at their definition.
Again, MSM has a habit of forgetting about stories where they were wrong. This is because there is nobody who can hold them accountable when it comes to Russia.

The US President set the record straight. Most news organizations merely did what they always do--report the facts as they know them. If you are so concerned about the MSM, then show some concern for who holds the Russian MSM accountable. As far as anyone can tell, it is Vladimir Putin, and he only holds them accountable for reporting what he does not want them to report. That is the MSM that you appear to put your faith and confidence in. Journalists in Russia have lost their lives for failing to understand that, and one of them now apparently lies dying in a Russian prison for daring to defy him.
 

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Yes, those stories and the assassination campaign have all been "on MSM". That's actually what the MSM does--report the news. And it took a long time for you to come around to the position that you could "give" on the assassination campaign. After they published the pictures of the two Russian "tourists" who carried out the attack on the Skripals, you saw it was hopeless to deny the obvious. But you are still gaslighting on the other stories.
No, I am reporting that US intelligence finally admitted that their bounty data is of "low to medium" confidence. Not even "high confidence" and "high confidence" is not really that high actually if you look at their definition.
Again, MSM has a habit of forgetting about stories where they were wrong. This is because there is nobody who can hold them accountable when it comes to Russia.

The US President set the record straight.
Did he? I mean did he set ALL records straight?
Most news organizations merely did what they always do--report the facts as they know them.
Did they? All I hear is crickets.
If you are so concerned about the MSM, then show some concern for who holds the Russian MSM accountable.
There is no MSM in Russia, they all under government control one way or another. What's your excuse?
 

Copernicus

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There is no MSM in Russia, they all under government control one way or another. What's your excuse?

My excuse is that I live in a part of the world where the MSM is not under government control. If you choose not to label the mainstream news outlets in Russia "MSM" because they are under government control (primarily through self-censorship, as is the case in other authoritarian regimes), that is your choice. It still strongly influences your beliefs and your politics, especially concerning topics like Ukraine and Russian interference in US elections. I have far more confidence in our MSM, with all its flaws, than in Russian news sources.
 

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There is no MSM in Russia, they all under government control one way or another. What's your excuse?

My excuse is that I live in a part of the world where the MSM is not under government control. If you choose not to label the mainstream news outlets in Russia "MSM" because they are under government control (primarily through self-censorship, as is the case in other authoritarian regimes), that is your choice. It still strongly influences your beliefs and your politics, especially concerning topics like Ukraine and Russian interference in US elections. I have far more confidence in our MSM, with all its flaws, than in Russian news sources.
So why are your MSM lying to you about Ukraine and Russia?
 

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There is no MSM in Russia, they all under government control one way or another. What's your excuse?

My excuse is that I live in a part of the world where the MSM is not under government control. If you choose not to label the mainstream news outlets in Russia "MSM" because they are under government control (primarily through self-censorship, as is the case in other authoritarian regimes), that is your choice. It still strongly influences your beliefs and your politics, especially concerning topics like Ukraine and Russian interference in US elections. I have far more confidence in our MSM, with all its flaws, than in Russian news sources.
So why are your MSM lying to you about Ukraine and Russia?

What sources are you using to determine they are lying?
 

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barbos

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non MSM, obviously.
To be fair, most MSM lies are lies of omission.

Examples of your sources?

Your evasion is telling.
I gave a number of links over the years, they were usually ignored. I gave one here in this thread.
As I said, these are lies of omissions. Nobody disputes the info, it's just ignored/not reported by MSM in US.
 

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Copernicus

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There is no MSM in Russia, they all under government control one way or another. What's your excuse?

My excuse is that I live in a part of the world where the MSM is not under government control. If you choose not to label the mainstream news outlets in Russia "MSM" because they are under government control (primarily through self-censorship, as is the case in other authoritarian regimes), that is your choice. It still strongly influences your beliefs and your politics, especially concerning topics like Ukraine and Russian interference in US elections. I have far more confidence in our MSM, with all its flaws, than in Russian news sources.
So why are your MSM lying to you about Ukraine and Russia?

Generally speaking, they don't intentionally lie. "MSM" is just a label that refers to a diverse collection of independent news outlets. They report on many things about Ukraine and Russia, and they inevitably get some facts wrong. Most things that they say about those two countries are reliable, especially regarding Russia's unprovoked invasion of Ukraine. Generally speaking, they try to report the truth as they see it, and they don't function as a propaganda outlet for their governments. Unlike the Russian MSM, they are free to report the truth without fear of being shut down by a tin pot dictator or having their reporters assassinated by government thugs.
 

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So why are your MSM lying to you about Ukraine and Russia?

Generally speaking, they don't intentionally lie. "MSM" is just a label that refers to a diverse collection of independent news outlets. They report on many things about Ukraine and Russia, and they inevitably get some facts wrong. Most things that they say about those two countries are reliable, especially regarding Russia's unprovoked invasion of Ukraine. Generally speaking, they try to report the truth as they see it, and they don't function as a propaganda outlet for their governments. Unlike the Russian MSM, they are free to report the truth without fear of being shut down by a tin pot dictator or having their reporters assassinated by government thugs.

I'm glad someone finally revealed what MSM is referring to. There is no MSM in Russia equivalent to the free press we have in the US. Russia has SCP, State Controlled Propaganda, same as China and North Korea and other police states.
 

Copernicus

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I would say that most of the mainstream outlets in Russia are fairly careful to slant their stories so as to favor government policies, but it is still possible to find opposition points of view. It isn't yet as bad as it was in Soviet times, when everything was quite literally the Party line. I subscribed to both Pravda and Izvestiya when I was in high school, so I got all of the latest news about farm and factory production successes. Most of the real news was found in the back pages, and you had to read between the lines. (I still have a box of those old newspapers from back in the early 1960s).

The label "MSM" or  Mainstream media in the US is used as a pejorative label primarily by the rightwing media. The MSM is normally used to contrast it with  alternative media.
 

barbos

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So why are your MSM lying to you about Ukraine and Russia?

Generally speaking, they don't intentionally lie. "MSM" is just a label that refers to a diverse collection of independent news outlets. They report on many things about Ukraine and Russia, and they inevitably get some facts wrong. Most things that they say about those two countries are reliable, especially regarding Russia's unprovoked invasion of Ukraine. Generally speaking, they try to report the truth as they see it, and they don't function as a propaganda outlet for their governments. Unlike the Russian MSM, they are free to report the truth without fear of being shut down by a tin pot dictator or having their reporters assassinated by government thugs.

I'm glad someone finally revealed what MSM is referring to. There is no MSM in Russia equivalent to the free press we have in the US. Russia has SCP, State Controlled Propaganda, same as China and North Korea and other police states.
Comparing Russia to NK or even China is ridiculous. There are different degrees of freedom of the press. But that's not the question here. Question here is what's your excuse for MSM being so atrocious when it comes to Russia?
 

Copernicus

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...
Comparing Russia to NK or even China is ridiculous. There are different degrees of freedom of the press. But that's not the question here. Question here is what's your excuse for MSM being so atrocious when it comes to Russia?

There is no excuse for the MSM in the Western world to be so atrocious when it comes to Russia, because they are quite simply very good. They can be relied on to print the truth, and the Russian MSM cannot. That's not to say that they always get everything right, but no reasonable person would expect that they would.

Barbos is right to say that Russia is very different from North Korea and China. North Korea has no publicly visible dissidents, because they are quite simply incarcerated and/or executed when discovered. China has a more free-wheeling society, and it does have some visible dissidents. Russia seems to have more publicly visible dissidents who are quite willing to become martyrs, Alexei Navalny being the latest example. Unlike China, Russia has a very active, organized pro-democracy protest movement. And there are media accessible on the internet that are critical of the Putin regime.
 

barbos

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Comparing Russia to NK or even China is ridiculous. There are different degrees of freedom of the press. But that's not the question here. Question here is what's your excuse for MSM being so atrocious when it comes to Russia?

There is no excuse for the MSM in the Western world to be so atrocious when it comes to Russia, because they are quite simply very good.
....
No, they are not, you are a proof of that.
 

Copernicus

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The good news on Navalny today is that he has agreed to end his hunger strike, since he has seen doctors he trusts and his own physicians wrote him to advise him that he was on the brink of death. He has joked that in his present malnourished state, he could be used to scare children who refused to eat their food. This, together with the promised Russian pullback from Ukraine's border, should be enough to lessen the possibility of further sanctions from the Biden administration. It looks like Putin is going to agree to Biden's invitation to a summit meeting in the summer. At least, he has not rejected the idea. Let's hope that this leads to some progress in relations between the US and Russia, which will now be based on diplomacy rather than personalities.
 

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The good news on Navalny today is that he has agreed to end his hunger strike, since he has seen doctors he trusts and his own physicians wrote him to advise him that he was on the brink of death. He has joked that in his present malnourished state, he could be used to scare children who refused to eat their food. This, together with the promised Russian pullback from Ukraine's border, should be enough to lessen the possibility of further sanctions from the Biden administration. It looks like Putin is going to agree to Biden's invitation to a summit meeting in the summer. At least, he has not rejected the idea. Let's hope that this leads to some progress in relations between the US and Russia, which will now be based on diplomacy rather than personalities.

"Relations" during the last administration could be hardly considered relations. There was a relationship, wherein one party (Putin) told the other (Trump) what to do to keep the kompromat from being revealed, and in return for total compliance Putin would help and advise Trump how to take over the USA, using the same playbook he had used in Russia.
 

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Former Homeland Security Acting Secretary Chad Wolf changed and delayed an intelligence report detailing Russian interference in the 2020 U.S. presidential election, according to a new review by the Department of Homeland Security's (DHS) top watchdog.

The decision to deviate from DHS standard review procedures "rais[ed] objectivity concerns," according to the report, and led to the perception that unorthodox interference by a top DHS official was intended to help Donald Trump's reelection bid.

The Office of the Inspector General (OIG) at DHS, through its Office of Intelligence and Analysis (I&A), released the redacted results of its investigation into Russian interference in the election — "DHS Actions Related to an I&A Intelligence Product Deviated from Standard Procedures" — on Tuesday.
 

Copernicus

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Former Homeland Security Acting Secretary Chad Wolf changed and delayed an intelligence report detailing Russian interference in the 2020 U.S. presidential election, according to a new review by the Department of Homeland Security's (DHS) top watchdog.

The decision to deviate from DHS standard review procedures "rais[ed] objectivity concerns," according to the report, and led to the perception that unorthodox interference by a top DHS official was intended to help Donald Trump's reelection bid.

The Office of the Inspector General (OIG) at DHS, through its Office of Intelligence and Analysis (I&A), released the redacted results of its investigation into Russian interference in the election — "DHS Actions Related to an I&A Intelligence Product Deviated from Standard Procedures" — on Tuesday.

The sad fact is that Trump got away with this kind of corrupt undermining of government institutions. He even got away with an attempted coup. The collusion between Donald Trump and the Putin regime is obvious, but neither the public nor the mainstream press seem overly concerned. That is yesterday's news for most Americans. Liberal Democrats still cling to the hope that stories like this will somehow stick to Trump, but the public has moved on. Republicans now have an example of how it's done, and they won't forget Trump's precedent. Someone like Ron DeSantis won't be as stupid and incompetent as Donald Trump, if he manages to grab the reins of power.
 

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The sad fact is that Trump got away with this kind of corrupt undermining of government institutions. He even got away with an attempted coup. The collusion between Donald Trump and the Putin regime is obvious, but neither the public nor the mainstream press seem overly concerned. That is yesterday's news for most Americans. Liberal Democrats still cling to the hope that stories like this will somehow stick to Trump, but the public has moved on. Republicans now have an example of how it's done, and they won't forget Trump's precedent. Someone like Ron DeSantis won't be as stupid and incompetent as Donald Trump, if he manages to grab the reins of power.
The basic problem is we have too many QOP types who think what His Flatulence did is proper.
 
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