# Bidengate Breaks... err... down

#### blastula

##### Contributor
I think you are misinterpreting my use of the word "admitted". Here's a clip from the reason.com article in my OP:
While the Times did not ignore the story, the paper's coverage treated it with skepticism and disdain.
Similarly, I can say when I was 10 years old that I was skeptical of life elsewhere in the universe, but now at age 60 after considering it more thoroughly, I admit now that I do believe it to be true. It doesn't necessarily mean I knew it to be true all along. Perhaps I could have used a better choice of words. I never intended to claim that they knew it to be true, but were hiding it.

And they were correct to treat it skeptically, as it was unproven. Weird to criticize them for doing their literal job.

I also never claimed the NYT said it was Russian disinformation. Here's another clip from the reason.com article I posted above:
Pro-Biden, anti-Trump journalists, including several at the Times, portrayed the Post's story as unsubstantiated at best. Politico reported that "more than 50 former senior intelligence officials" believed the emails had "all the classic earmarks of a Russian information operation."
What I said was, in my own words:

The prevailing theory back in 2020 by many was that the laptop contents did not originate from Hunter, but were Russian fabricated disinformation.
"By many", I meant people on this forum as well as in the general public, not necessarily the NYT.

So, no crow tonight (not that I haven't had my share over the years). I do believe I will head to Lucky's soon and get me a rotissiere chicken (Lemon Pepper spice). though. And some potato salad.

Nice to see you admit now that the NYT did not say it was Russian disinformation. Even though NYT is the only media you mentioned.

But again, it was all speculation either way. Nobody knew. People that believed that they were real emails were just as unfounded in their belief. So what if someone believed they were fake? It doesn't take TDS to think Giuliani was spouting fake news.

#### thebeave

##### Veteran Member
I feel like we are seeing a rather transparent attempt by the post to claim something not in evidence.

Uh oh...

The New York Times Belatedly Admits the Emails on Hunter Biden's Abandoned Laptop Are Real and Newsworthy

Yesterday The New York Times published a story that quotes emails from a laptop that Hunter Biden, President Joe Biden's son, abandoned at a computer repair shop in Delaware. The messages reinforce the impression that Burisma, a Ukrainian energy company that reportedly paid the younger Biden $50,000 a month to serve on its board, expected him to use his influence with his father for the company's benefit—an allegation that figured prominently in the scandal that led to Donald Trump's impeachment for pressuring the Ukrainian government to announce a Biden-Burisma corruption investigation. The messages include evidence that Hunter Biden arranged an April 2015 meeting between his father, then the vice president, and a Burisma executive. Looking at that bolded part - the recent Times story seems ot say nothing of the kind. Current actual NYT story said: In one email to Mr. Archer in April 2014, Mr. Biden outlined his vision for working with Burisma. In the email, Hunter Biden indicated that the forthcoming announcement of a trip to Ukraine by Vice President Biden — who is referred to in the email as “my guy,” but not by name — should “be characterized as part of our advice and thinking — but what he will say and do is out of our hands.” The announcement “could be a really good thing or it could end up creating too great an expectation. We need to temper expectations regarding that visit,” Hunter Biden wrote. Vice President Biden traveled to Kyiv, the Ukrainian capital, about a week after the email. In the same April 2014 email, Hunter Biden indicated that Burisma’s officials “need to know in no uncertain terms that we will not and cannot intervene directly with domestic policymakers, and that we need to abide by FARA and any other U.S. laws in the strictest sense across the board.” He suggested enlisting the law firm where he worked at the time, Boies Schiller Flexner, to help Burisma through “direct discussions at state, energy and NSC,” referring to two cabinet departments and the National Security Council at the White House. ADVERTISEMENT Continue reading the main story The firm “can devise a media plan and arrange for legal protections and mitigate U.S. domestic negative press regarding the current leadership if need be,” Mr. Biden wrote in the email. Mr. Biden, Mr. Archer, Boies Schiller Flexner and Blue Star Strategies did not register under FARA on behalf of Burisma. In another set of emails examined by prosecutors, Hunter Biden and Mr. Archer discussed inviting foreign business associates, including a Burisma executive, to a dinner in April 2015 at a Washington restaurant where Vice President Biden would stop by. It is not clear whether the Burisma executive attended the dinner, although the vice president did make an appearance, according to people familiar with the event. So, no, the story does not “ include evidence that Hunter Biden arranged an April 2015 meeting between his father, then the vice president, and a Burisma executive.” He does not arrange a meeting between, he tells the executive where his father is going to be. If I told a criminal that you had plans to be at a certain restaurant, does that mean I’ve “arranged a meeting between you”? Come on. But that was then. A year and a half later, the Times thinks the emails it viewed as suspect before Joe Biden's election are now newsworthy. Again, no. It is doing a story on the tax question that is legitimately in the news because of legal dates, and is including the background. Come on, “they now think it is newsworthy?” No, they did not change their minds, they are reporting it exactly the same way they did before. "People familiar" with a federal investigation of Hunter Biden, it reports, "said prosecutors had examined emails" between him, his former business partner Devon Archer, "and others" regarding "Burisma and other foreign business activity." Those emails "were obtained by The New York Times from a cache of files that appears to have come from a laptop abandoned by Mr. Biden in a Delaware repair shop." The messages "were authenticated by people familiar with them and with the investigation." Reading through this thread, it seems some people here might be eating crow with a side of mashed potatoes for dinner tonight. It seems like you might want to pick up a fork for that crow pie. Your premise that the NYT “now thinks it’s newsworthy” is bunk. Your premise that the emails “show Hunter arranging a meeting” is bunk. It looks exactly as it did before. A connected kid trying to make money off his connections, and having nothing but his own promises to sell. He even explicitly says he can’t promise Joe’s cooperation. None of these show that Hunter was successful at it, or that Joe Biden cooperated in any way. Just as unfounded and dumb as it was 18 months ago. And just as unfounded and dumb to say that either the NYT changed its mind or that we should. You seem to be missing the point, or perhaps I wasn't quite clear enough. The issue at hand is that the NYT has essentially now admitted that the emails did come from Hunter Biden's laptop that was left in a Delaware repair shop, and that those emails were authenticated. Here is cut-and-paste what the NYT said in their article: People familiar with the investigation said prosecutors had examined emails between Mr. Biden, Mr. Archer and others about Burisma and other foreign business activity. Those emails were obtained by The New York Times from a cache of files that appears to have come from a laptop abandoned by Mr. Biden in a Delaware repair shop. The email and others in the cache were authenticated by people familiar with them and with the investigation. The prevailing theory back in 2020 by many was that the laptop contents did not originate from Hunter, but were Russian fabricated disinformation. Or that the laptop never existed in the first place. You have focused on whether the reason.com article I quoted faithfully relayed the details of the NYT article, which it does seem they could have done a better job. What was the "Uh oh..." about? We're led to believe by your font bolding and color that those specific sentences and phrases were the "uh oh..." part. Is it real and newsworthy that Hunter Biden [insert here] or is the whole point about blatant media manipulation or whatever? All that bolding is from someone else not me! Check out post #125 if you want to see my original post from yesterday. #### thebeave ##### Veteran Member I think you are misinterpreting my use of the word "admitted". Here's a clip from the reason.com article in my OP: While the Times did not ignore the story, the paper's coverage treated it with skepticism and disdain. Similarly, I can say when I was 10 years old that I was skeptical of life elsewhere in the universe, but now at age 60 after considering it more thoroughly, I admit now that I do believe it to be true. It doesn't necessarily mean I knew it to be true all along. Perhaps I could have used a better choice of words. I never intended to claim that they knew it to be true, but were hiding it. And they were correct to treat it skeptically, as it was unproven. Weird to criticize them for doing their literal job. I also never claimed the NYT said it was Russian disinformation. Here's another clip from the reason.com article I posted above: Pro-Biden, anti-Trump journalists, including several at the Times, portrayed the Post's story as unsubstantiated at best. Politico reported that "more than 50 former senior intelligence officials" believed the emails had "all the classic earmarks of a Russian information operation." What I said was, in my own words: The prevailing theory back in 2020 by many was that the laptop contents did not originate from Hunter, but were Russian fabricated disinformation. "By many", I meant people on this forum as well as in the general public, not necessarily the NYT. So, no crow tonight (not that I haven't had my share over the years). I do believe I will head to Lucky's soon and get me a rotissiere chicken (Lemon Pepper spice). though. And some potato salad. Nice to see you admit now that the NYT did not say it was Russian disinformation. Even though NYT is the only media you mentioned. But again, it was all speculation either way. Nobody knew. People that believed that they were real emails were just as unfounded in their belief. So what if someone believed they were fake? It doesn't take TDS to think Giuliani was spouting fake news. Arg. Show me where I ever explicitly claimed the NYT said it was Russian disinformation. That was Politico who was going with that, per the reason.com article. I personally just said "many people" thought it was Russian disinformation back in 2020. But I do agree with you that it was a new story and not yet fleshed out or investigated. So I don't blame the NYT for their initial skeptical stance, nor am I critisizing them for that. Really, I'm kinda beating on the people and especially the media who completely dismissed it as a nutjob conspiracy from the get-go, and I'm using the NYT ( a decidedly left wing source) as the vehicle to show that the laptop story has got legs. #### Angry Floof ##### Tricksy Leftits Staff member I feel like we are seeing a rather transparent attempt by the post to claim something not in evidence. Uh oh... The New York Times Belatedly Admits the Emails on Hunter Biden's Abandoned Laptop Are Real and Newsworthy Yesterday The New York Times published a story that quotes emails from a laptop that Hunter Biden, President Joe Biden's son, abandoned at a computer repair shop in Delaware. The messages reinforce the impression that Burisma, a Ukrainian energy company that reportedly paid the younger Biden$50,000 a month to serve on its board, expected him to use his influence with his father for the company's benefit—an allegation that figured prominently in the scandal that led to Donald Trump's impeachment for pressuring the Ukrainian government to announce a Biden-Burisma corruption investigation. The messages include evidence that Hunter Biden arranged an April 2015 meeting between his father, then the vice president, and a Burisma executive.

Looking at that bolded part - the recent Times story seems ot say nothing of the kind.

Current actual NYT story said:
In one email to Mr. Archer in April 2014, Mr. Biden outlined his vision for working with Burisma. In the email, Hunter Biden indicated that the forthcoming announcement of a trip to Ukraine by Vice President Biden — who is referred to in the email as “my guy,” but not by name — should “be characterized as part of our advice and thinking — but what he will say and do is out of our hands.”

The announcement “could be a really good thing or it could end up creating too great an expectation. We need to temper expectations regarding that visit,” Hunter Biden wrote.

Vice President Biden traveled to Kyiv, the Ukrainian capital, about a week after the email.

In the same April 2014 email, Hunter Biden indicated that Burisma’s officials “need to know in no uncertain terms that we will not and cannot intervene directly with domestic policymakers, and that we need to abide by FARA and any other U.S. laws in the strictest sense across the board.”

He suggested enlisting the law firm where he worked at the time, Boies Schiller Flexner, to help Burisma through “direct discussions at state, energy and NSC,” referring to two cabinet departments and the National Security Council at the White House.

The firm “can devise a media plan and arrange for legal protections and mitigate U.S. domestic negative press regarding the current leadership if need be,” Mr. Biden wrote in the email.

Mr. Biden, Mr. Archer, Boies Schiller Flexner and Blue Star Strategies did not register under FARA on behalf of Burisma.

In another set of emails examined by prosecutors, Hunter Biden and Mr. Archer discussed inviting foreign business associates, including a Burisma executive, to a dinner in April 2015 at a Washington restaurant where Vice President Biden would stop by. It is not clear whether the Burisma executive attended the dinner, although the vice president did make an appearance, according to people familiar with the event.

So, no, the story does not “ include evidence that Hunter Biden arranged an April 2015 meeting between his father, then the vice president, and a Burisma executive.”

He does not arrange a meeting between, he tells the executive where his father is going to be. If I told a criminal that you had plans to be at a certain restaurant, does that mean I’ve “arranged a meeting between you”?

Come on.

But that was then. A year and a half later, the Times thinks the emails it viewed as suspect before Joe Biden's election are now newsworthy.
Again, no.
It is doing a story on the tax question that is legitimately in the news because of legal dates, and is including the background.

Come on, “they now think it is newsworthy?”
No, they did not change their minds, they are reporting it exactly the same way they did before.

"People familiar" with a federal investigation of Hunter Biden, it reports, "said prosecutors had examined emails" between him, his former business partner Devon Archer, "and others" regarding "Burisma and other foreign business activity." Those emails "were obtained by The New York Times from a cache of files that appears to have come from a laptop abandoned by Mr. Biden in a Delaware repair shop." The messages "were authenticated by people familiar with them and with the investigation."

Reading through this thread, it seems some people here might be eating crow with a side of mashed potatoes for dinner tonight.

It seems like you might want to pick up a fork for that crow pie.

Your premise that the NYT “now thinks it’s newsworthy” is bunk.
Your premise that the emails “show Hunter arranging a meeting” is bunk.

It looks exactly as it did before. A connected kid trying to make money off his connections, and having nothing but his own promises to sell. He even explicitly says he can’t promise Joe’s cooperation. None of these show that Hunter was successful at it, or that Joe Biden cooperated in any way.

Just as unfounded and dumb as it was 18 months ago. And just as unfounded and dumb to say that either the NYT changed its mind or that we should.
You seem to be missing the point, or perhaps I wasn't quite clear enough. The issue at hand is that the NYT has essentially now admitted that the emails did come from Hunter Biden's laptop that was left in a Delaware repair shop, and that those emails were authenticated. Here is cut-and-paste what the NYT said in their article:

People familiar with the investigation said prosecutors had examined emails between Mr. Biden, Mr. Archer and others about Burisma and other foreign business activity. Those emails were obtained by The New York Times from a cache of files that appears to have come from a laptop abandoned by Mr. Biden in a Delaware repair shop. The email and others in the cache were authenticated by people familiar with them and with the investigation.

The prevailing theory back in 2020 by many was that the laptop contents did not originate from Hunter, but were Russian fabricated disinformation. Or that the laptop never existed in the first place. You have focused on whether the reason.com article I quoted faithfully relayed the details of the NYT article, which it does seem they could have done a better job.
What was the "Uh oh..." about? We're led to believe by your font bolding and color that those specific sentences and phrases were the "uh oh..." part. Is it real and newsworthy that Hunter Biden [insert here] or is the whole point about blatant media manipulation or whatever?
All that bolding is from someone else not me! Check out post #125 if you want to see my original post from yesterday.

Ah, ok. But still, what was the "uh oh..." and what are people supposed to be eating crow about?

##### Loony Running The Asylum
Staff member
Are there any emails from Hunter saying he would actually do what Burisma wanted him to do?

And how do we know these emails are legitimate? These computers passed through many hands before getting to the FBI.

Exactly. I find the providence of the laptop sorely lacking. I strongly suspect most of the e-mails are legitimate but given the providence I consider it likely that things have been tampered with. Thus it means nothing--and showing that much of it is true means nothing, it could easily be someone hacked his system, got his old e-mails and then changed things a bit.

Don't go looking for suspicious stuff on that hard drive, address the chain of custody first!
How would the Russians do all that, though? Are they logging into his laptop from Russia, or are the Russian hackers here in the US somehow given access to it? Or did they take the laptop to Russia? Wouldn't a competent computer forensics team be able to tell if the emails or other information were altered?
Where above is anyone suggesting it was Russians??? Rudy Giuliani had the laptop for a time. You remember Rudy, right? The guy that runs a security consulting firm and tried to get Zelensky to dig up dirt on Biden. Yeah, he wouldn't have access to anyone who could screw with that laptop.

Loren himself, in post #22. Here, I'll save you some time:
Yeah, as more comes out it looks like the whole thing is faked. They got the e-mails by some illicit means (probably Moscow) and are using harmless stuff as support for the spicy stuff they faked.
You'll have to take that up with Loren.

Now, do you have anything to say about my comment?

#### thebeave

##### Veteran Member
Are there any emails from Hunter saying he would actually do what Burisma wanted him to do?

And how do we know these emails are legitimate? These computers passed through many hands before getting to the FBI.

Exactly. I find the providence of the laptop sorely lacking. I strongly suspect most of the e-mails are legitimate but given the providence I consider it likely that things have been tampered with. Thus it means nothing--and showing that much of it is true means nothing, it could easily be someone hacked his system, got his old e-mails and then changed things a bit.

Don't go looking for suspicious stuff on that hard drive, address the chain of custody first!
How would the Russians do all that, though? Are they logging into his laptop from Russia, or are the Russian hackers here in the US somehow given access to it? Or did they take the laptop to Russia? Wouldn't a competent computer forensics team be able to tell if the emails or other information were altered?
Where above is anyone suggesting it was Russians??? Rudy Giuliani had the laptop for a time. You remember Rudy, right? The guy that runs a security consulting firm and tried to get Zelensky to dig up dirt on Biden. Yeah, he wouldn't have access to anyone who could screw with that laptop.

Loren himself, in post #22. Here, I'll save you some time:
Yeah, as more comes out it looks like the whole thing is faked. They got the e-mails by some illicit means (probably Moscow) and are using harmless stuff as support for the spicy stuff they faked.
You'll have to take that up with Loren.

Now, do you have anything to say about my comment?
Well, the NYT did claim that the emails were authenticated. So, if Rudy and his cronies altered them, I presume the computer forensics would show that, would it not? I'm not a computer expert, so I can't really say if it is possible to fake content on a hard drive and not have it be detected. As a minimum, they did not say that any of the content appears doctored. That's all I got for ya.

#### Artemus

##### Veteran Member
When I just had just reached voting age and it was revealed that Billy Carter had registered as a foreign agent of Libya, I remember thinking "Who gives a shit?" It's deja vu all over again.

#### Elixir

When I just had just reached voting age and it was revealed that Billy Carter had registered as a foreign agent of Libya, I remember thinking "Who gives a shit?" It's deja vu all over again.
That’s why they don’t register any more. Nothin but trouble once you let laws and stuff interfere.

##### Loony Running The Asylum
Staff member
Are there any emails from Hunter saying he would actually do what Burisma wanted him to do?

And how do we know these emails are legitimate? These computers passed through many hands before getting to the FBI.

Exactly. I find the providence of the laptop sorely lacking. I strongly suspect most of the e-mails are legitimate but given the providence I consider it likely that things have been tampered with. Thus it means nothing--and showing that much of it is true means nothing, it could easily be someone hacked his system, got his old e-mails and then changed things a bit.

Don't go looking for suspicious stuff on that hard drive, address the chain of custody first!
How would the Russians do all that, though? Are they logging into his laptop from Russia, or are the Russian hackers here in the US somehow given access to it? Or did they take the laptop to Russia? Wouldn't a competent computer forensics team be able to tell if the emails or other information were altered?
Where above is anyone suggesting it was Russians??? Rudy Giuliani had the laptop for a time. You remember Rudy, right? The guy that runs a security consulting firm and tried to get Zelensky to dig up dirt on Biden. Yeah, he wouldn't have access to anyone who could screw with that laptop.

Loren himself, in post #22. Here, I'll save you some time:
Yeah, as more comes out it looks like the whole thing is faked. They got the e-mails by some illicit means (probably Moscow) and are using harmless stuff as support for the spicy stuff they faked.
You'll have to take that up with Loren.

Now, do you have anything to say about my comment?
Well, the NYT did claim that the emails were authenticated.
All the emails or just some?
So, if Rudy and his cronies altered them, I presume the computer forensics would show that, would it not? I'm not a computer expert, so I can't really say if it is possible to fake content on a hard drive and not have it be detected. As a minimum, they did not say that any of the content appears doctored. That's all I got for ya.
To be sure, the email headers contain the servers the emails went through, those servers would have to be examined to confirm if true. Spoofing email headers is quite easy.

#### thebeave

##### Veteran Member
When I just had just reached voting age and it was revealed that Billy Carter had registered as a foreign agent of Libya, I remember thinking "Who gives a shit?" It's deja vu all over again.
Well, typically the US Government gives a shit. If you apply for a top secret clearance, for example, you very likely will have to disclose such relations between a close family member and a nation such as Libya. I can only imagine how much they might care if its the POTUS.

I don't remember that, though. Why would Billy Carter do that? Maybe he wanted to peddle his "Billy Beer" there?

##### Loony Running The Asylum
Staff member
When I just had just reached voting age and it was revealed that Billy Carter had registered as a foreign agent of Libya, I remember thinking "Who gives a shit?" It's deja vu all over again.
Well, typically the US Government gives a shit. If you apply for a top secret clearance, for example, you very likely will have to disclose such relations between a close family member and a nation such as Libya. I can only imagine how much they might care if its the POTUS.

I don't remember that, though. Why would Billy Carter do that? Maybe he wanted to peddle his "Billy Beer" there?
Cuz he couldn't sell the piss water here?

#### Patooka

##### Veteran Member
Well, typically the US Government gives a shit. If you apply for a top secret clearance, for example, you very likely will have to disclose such relations between a close family member and a nation such as Libya. I can only imagine how much they might care if its the POTUS.
Wow. How quickly they forget.

Staff member

#### Harry Bosch

##### Contributor
When I just had just reached voting age and it was revealed that Billy Carter had registered as a foreign agent of Libya, I remember thinking "Who gives a shit?" It's deja vu all over again.
Well, typically the US Government gives a shit. If you apply for a top secret clearance, for example, you very likely will have to disclose such relations between a close family member and a nation such as Libya. I can only imagine how much they might care if its the POTUS.

I don't remember that, though. Why would Billy Carter do that? Maybe he wanted to peddle his "Billy Beer" there?
Again. Super sorry here. But I'm a typical American with a short attention span. You still haven't explained why I should care about Hunter Biden. I'm far more interested in Kim Kardashian latest fashion outfit. Supposedly Hunter had this laptop with e-mails that show an improper relationship that Biden may have had with a donor. Correct? But there is no evidence that corroborates this. It seems like a lot of assumptions. I'm just not impressed.

#### Elixir

I'm far more interested in Kim Kardashian latest fashion outfit.

You’re one sick mo fo!

Supposedly Hunter had this laptop with e-mails that show an improper relationship that Biden may have had with a donor. Correct? But there is no evidence that corroborates this. It seems like a lot of assumptions. I'm just not impressed.

It’s an unusual and curious accusation … because skulduggery involving foreign interests and election interference is generally a Republican thing. But if one is aware of how the new reich strives to accuse others of their own crime du jour, it’s hardly surprising.

#### Artemus

##### Veteran Member
When I just had just reached voting age and it was revealed that Billy Carter had registered as a foreign agent of Libya, I remember thinking "Who gives a shit?" It's deja vu all over again.
Well, typically the US Government gives a shit. If you apply for a top secret clearance, for example, you very likely will have to disclose such relations between a close family member and a nation such as Libya. I can only imagine how much they might care if its the POTUS.

I don't remember that, though. Why would Billy Carter do that?

Because he was a drunken fool who was trying to cash in on the notoriety of being related to a high-ranking government official, which had no relevance whatsoever on the fitness or appropriateness of said relative to perform the job.

LIke I said, deja vu.

#### Keith&Co.

##### Contributor
Oh, Lord, I remember that. I'm sure Libya expected some behind-the-scenes influence peddling, but Billy was too dumb for that nonsense. He probably called Jimmy up and said, "Libbyuh wants me to get you to ____ for them. Is that okay?" And Jimmy handed the phone to someone else and said, "Get this idiot registered as a foreign lobbyist or something, before he gets us both arrested. And then put his number on the "Not At Home" list."

THey kept TRYING to find Billy something useful to do. Escorting diplomats (PLEASE don't take a whiz on the side of the road this time!) and so on. He certainly did not think there was a reason not to take money to namedrop with his brother. Jimmy'd be the one makin' the ackshul decision, raght?

#### Loren Pechtel

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
Are there any emails from Hunter saying he would actually do what Burisma wanted him to do?

And how do we know these emails are legitimate? These computers passed through many hands before getting to the FBI.

Exactly. I find the providence of the laptop sorely lacking. I strongly suspect most of the e-mails are legitimate but given the providence I consider it likely that things have been tampered with. Thus it means nothing--and showing that much of it is true means nothing, it could easily be someone hacked his system, got his old e-mails and then changed things a bit.

Don't go looking for suspicious stuff on that hard drive, address the chain of custody first!
How would the Russians do all that, though? Are they logging into his laptop from Russia, or are the Russian hackers here in the US somehow given access to it? Or did they take the laptop to Russia? Wouldn't a competent computer forensics team be able to tell if the emails or other information were altered?

This is an old machine, not live data. The providence is very sketchy, it's likely planted. And forensics can't catch a good enough job of faking it, especially in a situation like this where it's data, not images.

#### Loren Pechtel

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
What We Know and Don’t About Hunter Biden and a Laptop - The New York Times.

No concrete evidence has emerged that the laptop contains Russian disinformation.

With pressure mounting on the F.B.I. to respond to questions from Congress about the laptop, the bureau wrote to one of the president’s staunchest allies in Congress, Senator Ron Johnson of Wisconsin, suggesting that it had not found any Russian disinformation on the laptop.

Which doesn't prove it wasn't manipulated.

#### Loren Pechtel

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
Well, the NYT did claim that the emails were authenticated. So, if Rudy and his cronies altered them, I presume the computer forensics would show that, would it not? I'm not a computer expert, so I can't really say if it is possible to fake content on a hard drive and not have it be detected. As a minimum, they did not say that any of the content appears doctored. That's all I got for ya.

It most certainly is possible to fake content. It all comes down to how much faking you want to do. At the simplest level you can easily do it yourself: Plug in a thumb drive and copy a file to it. Notice how the file written date is the file written date of the original file, not the time you actually did it? Windows fakes the file date for your convenience, making it match the original instead of telling the truth. (And it most definitely is faking it--if you look at the new file while it's still writing it you'll see it has the current time. Once all the data is written it then copies the file timestamps over.)

Such fakery can only be detected when either the fakery is inconsistent (what often happens with photoshops--for example, pasting together two images that had light sources from different angle(s)--that's very hard to correct for) or when they leave behind signs of the tampering.

That's why programs like PGP exist--without a digital signature there's no way to know if it's real or not.

#### Loren Pechtel

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
Well, the NYT did claim that the emails were authenticated.
All the emails or just some?

Exactly. The best way to pull off something like this is to get an actual copy of their e-mail (say, the outlook database) so there's a lot of genuine stuff in there.

So, if Rudy and his cronies altered them, I presume the computer forensics would show that, would it not? I'm not a computer expert, so I can't really say if it is possible to fake content on a hard drive and not have it be detected. As a minimum, they did not say that any of the content appears doctored. That's all I got for ya.
To be sure, the email headers contain the servers the emails went through, those servers would have to be examined to confirm if true. Spoofing email headers is quite easy.

Except this is from years ago--do backups exist compare against?

#### thebeave

##### Veteran Member
Well, the NYT did claim that the emails were authenticated. So, if Rudy and his cronies altered them, I presume the computer forensics would show that, would it not? I'm not a computer expert, so I can't really say if it is possible to fake content on a hard drive and not have it be detected. As a minimum, they did not say that any of the content appears doctored. That's all I got for ya.

It most certainly is possible to fake content. It all comes down to how much faking you want to do. At the simplest level you can easily do it yourself: Plug in a thumb drive and copy a file to it. Notice how the file written date is the file written date of the original file, not the time you actually did it? Windows fakes the file date for your convenience, making it match the original instead of telling the truth. (And it most definitely is faking it--if you look at the new file while it's still writing it you'll see it has the current time. Once all the data is written it then copies the file timestamps over.)

Such fakery can only be detected when either the fakery is inconsistent (what often happens with photoshops--for example, pasting together two images that had light sources from different angle(s)--that's very hard to correct for) or when they leave behind signs of the tampering.

That's why programs like PGP exist--without a digital signature there's no way to know if it's real or not.
Well, presumably the forensic experts know this as well. So, why would they say they were authenticated if they knew the authenticity couldn't be known for sure?

#### Loren Pechtel

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
Well, the NYT did claim that the emails were authenticated. So, if Rudy and his cronies altered them, I presume the computer forensics would show that, would it not? I'm not a computer expert, so I can't really say if it is possible to fake content on a hard drive and not have it be detected. As a minimum, they did not say that any of the content appears doctored. That's all I got for ya.

It most certainly is possible to fake content. It all comes down to how much faking you want to do. At the simplest level you can easily do it yourself: Plug in a thumb drive and copy a file to it. Notice how the file written date is the file written date of the original file, not the time you actually did it? Windows fakes the file date for your convenience, making it match the original instead of telling the truth. (And it most definitely is faking it--if you look at the new file while it's still writing it you'll see it has the current time. Once all the data is written it then copies the file timestamps over.)

Such fakery can only be detected when either the fakery is inconsistent (what often happens with photoshops--for example, pasting together two images that had light sources from different angle(s)--that's very hard to correct for) or when they leave behind signs of the tampering.

That's why programs like PGP exist--without a digital signature there's no way to know if it's real or not.
Well, presumably the forensic experts know this as well. So, why would they say they were authenticated if they knew the authenticity couldn't be known for sure?

The QOP doesn't want to admit the truth.

#### Keith&Co.

##### Contributor
You know, even if they ever do prove that Hunter actually wrote those emails, word for word, AND sent them, all he has to do is say that he never acted on anything in thete, or intended to.
He was joking.
That's apparently a defense the right will accept, and defend.

#### Jimmy Higgins

##### Contributor
When I just had just reached voting age and it was revealed that Billy Carter had registered as a foreign agent of Libya, I remember thinking "Who gives a shit?" It's deja vu all over again.
This is all ignoring the other aspects of the story, including Giuliani's allegation that not only did he have emails and photos, but he had extraordinarily illegal content from the laptop as well (which would actually have been a crime for Giuliani). I find it amazing how this stuff was never released. But yeah, we shouldn't have been skeptical, we should have just accepted Four Seasons Landscaping man at his word.

#### Jason Harvestdancer

##### Contributor
Oh come on, this story is more than a week old. It's old news and nobody cares about old news.

##### Loony Running The Asylum
Staff member
Oh come on, this story is more than a week old. It's old news and nobody cares about old news.
No one has given us a reason to care about it at all.

#### Swammerdami

Staff member
Reading about the possible misdeeds of one possible criminal is NOT on my To-Do List. Why should I care?

I support law and order and think criminals should be prosecuted. Did Trump's DoJ fail to do its job? Biden's DoJ? I assume the underlying theme is the usual "See? You guys are just as guilty as us." But we'd need to indict a lot more criminals than a possible one named Hunter to match the stench coming from the Trump family, Trump Cabinet, and the rest of QOPAnon.

Is the intended inference that if someone is criminal, the other members of his family are also? This isn't guaranteed. The 45th President apparently had a criminal father, criminal grandfather, criminal 3rd wife, and at least two of his children are criminals, but I've seen no allegations of criminality against Trump's mother nor against his two youngest children.

Extraneous details:
While skimming the thread I did notice mention that the original m-time (modify time) is preserved when a file is copied. Yes, but the Unix c-time (change time) will be no earlier than the new file's creation. (A hacker can "fix" this by writing to the raw disk.) In Windows, c-time refers to creation-time and Windows doesn't pretend to any consistency — IIUC an ordinary user can, unwittingly, set the new file's creation-time to EITHER the old or new value!

Exactly. I find the providence of the laptop sorely lacking. I strongly suspect most of the e-mails are legitimate but given the providence I consider it likely that things have been tampered with....
How would the Russians do all that, though? ...

This is an old machine, not live data. The providence is very sketchy, it's likely planted. And forensics can't catch a good enough job of faking it, especially in a situation like this where it's data, not images.
I'll guess provenance, rather than providence, was the intended word.
Unless the Lord of All Creation is somehow involved in this scandal.

#### TSwizzle

##### Let's Go Brandon!
Reading about the possible misdeeds of one possible criminal is NOT on my To-Do List. Why should I care?

You should care because not only did the MSM try its best to ignore, deny and bury the scandal, the MSM and big tech tried to censor the story.

#### TomC

##### Celestial Highness
Reading about the possible misdeeds of one possible criminal is NOT on my To-Do List. Why should I care?

You should care because not only did the MSM try its best to ignore, deny and bury the scandal, the MSM and big tech tried to censor the story.

What do you mean by MSM?
I understand that it is an acronym for Main Stream Media. But you never say which media outlets you're referring to. Fox is the most main stream media I know about. They claim to be the most watched.
Somehow, you don't seem to think it is MSM. Please explain what you mean by the term.
Tom

#### Ford

##### Contributor
Reading about the possible misdeeds of one possible criminal is NOT on my To-Do List. Why should I care?

You should care because not only did the MSM try its best to ignore, deny and bury the scandal, the MSM and big tech tried to censor the story.

What do you mean by MSM?
I understand that it is an acronym for Main Stream Media. But you never say which media outlets you're referring to. Fox is the most main stream media I know about. They claim to be the most watched.
Somehow, you don't seem to think it is MSM. Please explain what you mean by the term.
Tom
I also await the answer, and would like to provide a little extra context as a former media employee.

When people leaning a certain way politically say the term "MSM" or "mainstream media" they tend to leave out outlets such as Fox News or talk radio hosts like the departed Rush Limbaugh. In some cases the people decrying the "MSM" are hosts on Fox or talk radio.

Let's be clear about this. Fox News is (according to current ratings) the number one cable news network. It is owned by one of the largest media companies in the world. Most of the prominent right wing talk radio hosts are syndicated by Premiere Radio Networks, which is part of iHeart Media...the largest radio company on the planet. Fox News and talk radio are - and have been for decades - "mainstream media." They sell themselves as plucky upstarts outside of the mainstream, but they are not and have never been such.

Fox = MSM.

Next question?

#### Loren Pechtel

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
Reading about the possible misdeeds of one possible criminal is NOT on my To-Do List. Why should I care?

You should care because not only did the MSM try its best to ignore, deny and bury the scandal, the MSM and big tech tried to censor the story.

Big tech recognized that it doesn't make sense. Just because you like it doesn't make it true.

##### Loony Running The Asylum
Staff member
[yawn] Wake me when something of significance happens. [/yawn]

#### Swammerdami

Staff member
Let's go Brandon!
Reading about the possible misdeeds of one possible criminal is NOT on my To-Do List. Why should I care?

You should care because not only did the MSM try its best to ignore, deny and bury the scandal, the MSM and big tech tried to censor the story.
Wake me up when the media your ilk idolizes has 0.000001% as much integrity as the "MSM" has in its little finger.

Better yet, strive for a little self-respect by deleting your line about "Brandon." Haven't most nine-year-olds moved past that sort of insipid turd-tossing?

[yawn] Wake me when something of significance happens. [/yawn]
I composed my response to Mr. "Let's Go" Swizzle before reading ZiprHead's response, honest!

#### TSwizzle

##### Let's Go Brandon!
Let's go Brandon!
Reading about the possible misdeeds of one possible criminal is NOT on my To-Do List. Why should I care?

You should care because not only did the MSM try its best to ignore, deny and bury the scandal, the MSM and big tech tried to censor the story.
Wake me up when the media your ilk idolizes has 0.000001% as much integrity as the "MSM" has in its little finger.

When you ask a question don't get all prissy because you don't like the answer, you just come across all Karen-like.

#### Toni

##### Contributor
Let's go Brandon!
Reading about the possible misdeeds of one possible criminal is NOT on my To-Do List. Why should I care?

You should care because not only did the MSM try its best to ignore, deny and bury the scandal, the MSM and big tech tried to censor the story.
Wake me up when the media your ilk idolizes has 0.000001% as much integrity as the "MSM" has in its little finger.

When you ask a question don't get all prissy because you don't like the answer, you just come across all Karen-like.
Please do not malign a perfectly nice name or white women with a facile and bigoted attempt at an insult.

Please define what you believe is MSM and how they buried the issue, using concrete examples with links if possible.

#### TSwizzle

##### Let's Go Brandon!
When you ask a question don't get all prissy because you don't like the answer, you just come across all Karen-like.
Please do not malign a perfectly nice name or white women with a facile and bigoted attempt at an insult.

Define "woman". Are you saying there are no black "women" named Karen? Racist.

Please define what you believe is MSM and how they buried the issue, using concrete examples with links if possible.

Behave yourself.

#### TSwizzle

##### Let's Go Brandon!
Bill Maher calls out the NYT;

Bill Maher slams the left-wing media for 'burying the Hunter Biden laptop scandal because it wasn't part of their narrative' and says it shouldn't have taken more than a year for NYT and WaPo to 'verify' initial report

Daily Mail

#### Harry Bosch

##### Contributor
Bill Maher calls out the NYT;

Bill Maher slams the left-wing media for 'burying the Hunter Biden laptop scandal because it wasn't part of their narrative' and says it shouldn't have taken more than a year for NYT and WaPo to 'verify' initial report

Daily Mail
Totally agree. I will not be voting for that meanie Hunter Biden in the future.

#### Elixir

Totally agree. I will not be voting for that meanie Hunter Biden in the future.

Right on, brother. I'm voting for Eric next time!

#### Patooka

##### Veteran Member
Have I missed out on the part where Trumptards explain why it is such a scandal Hunter Biden owns a laptop? Seriously, how does this cripple or compromise the Biden Administration?

#### Harry Bosch

##### Contributor
Have I missed out on the part where Trumptards explain why it is such a scandal Hunter Biden owns a laptop? Seriously, how does this cripple or compromise the Biden Administration?
Well Duh. You need to get with the program. Firstly, the esteemed and honorable Rudy Guiliani says that it's a big deal. His pristine reputation should be enough for the common folk to trust his judgement. Secondly, what if Hunter runs in the future? Remember, Hunter was very mean about Trump.

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#### Elixir

Have I missed out on the part where Trumptards explain why it is such a scandal Hunter Biden owns a laptop? Seriously, how does this cripple or compromise the Biden Administration?
Well Duh. You need to get with the program. Firstly, the esteemed and honorable Rudy Guiliani says that it's a big deal. His pristine reputation should be enough for the common folk to trust his judgement. Secondly, what if Hunter runs in the future? Remember, Hunter was very mean against Trump.

Translation:
Repugs are already scraping the bottom of their boogeyman barrel.

#### TSwizzle

##### Let's Go Brandon!
Plenty more to come out of this story;

The source who distributed Hunter Biden's laptop to congressmen and media has fled the US to Switzerland, saying he fears retaliation from the Biden administration. Jack Maxey gave DailyMail.com a copy of the hard drive from Hunter's abandoned laptop in the spring of 2021. He also gave copies and material from it to the Washington Post, New York Times, and Senator Chuck Grassley in his role as ranking Republican on the Senate Judiciary Committee – but he claims they all sat on it for months. Maxey, a former co-host of ex-Donald Trump advisor Steve Bannon's podcast the War Room, claims he and his colleagues have found '450 gigabytes of deleted material' including 80,000 images and videos and more than 120,000 archived emails. He said he intends to post them all online in a searchable database in the coming weeks. Hunter's laptop is brimming with evidence of apparent criminal activity by him and his associates including drug trafficking and prostitution.

Daily Mail

#### Ford

##### Contributor
saying he fears retaliation from the Biden administration

I mean, the Biden administration has a long history of attacking the press. Declaring them "fake news" and "an enemy of the United States." Why, he even openly admires authoritarian regimes that imprison journalists!

Oh wait...that was Trump.

But hey, we know this latest development is totally legit, since it comes from an objective journalist, who is (checks notes)...a former co-host of ex-Donald Trump advisor Steve Bannon's podcast the War Room

So you know you know you can trust him to be fair. Maybe even balanced, too!

#### Patooka

##### Veteran Member
Plenty more to come out of this story;
Plenty more? There has been fuck all out of this story to begin with. Fuck me Trumptards are pathetic.

#### Artemus

##### Veteran Member
Plenty more to come out of this story;

The source who distributed Hunter Biden's laptop to congressmen and media has fled the US to Switzerland, saying he fears retaliation from the Biden administration. Jack Maxey gave DailyMail.com a copy of the hard drive from Hunter's abandoned laptop in the spring of 2021. He also gave copies and material from it to the Washington Post, New York Times, and Senator Chuck Grassley in his role as ranking Republican on the Senate Judiciary Committee – but he claims they all sat on it for months. Maxey, a former co-host of ex-Donald Trump advisor Steve Bannon's podcast the War Room, claims he and his colleagues have found '450 gigabytes of deleted material' including 80,000 images and videos and more than 120,000 archived emails. He said he intends to post them all online in a searchable database in the coming weeks. Hunter's laptop is brimming with evidence of apparent criminal activity by him and his associates including drug trafficking and prostitution.

Daily Mail
None of this involves the President, any of his advisors, or anyone employed by the Adminstrationin any capacity whatsoever. I ask again, even if all this is true, why should I as a voter care?

#### Ford

##### Contributor
Plenty more to come out of this story;
Plenty more? There has been fuck all out of this story to begin with. Fuck me Trumptards are pathetic.
You don't understand. See, Hunter Biden worked for a company in Ukraine. In Ukraine! Years ago, but still! Do you think it is a coincidence that there's a war going on in the same country where he once worked?

Granted, the war is not at all happening because Trump's bestie Vlad decided to rebuild "Greater Russia" and his army is currently not slaughtering civilians, but that can't be divorced from the Hunter Biden thing like Trump was divorced from his first two wives! See, when Hunter Biden worked for a company in Ukraine in the 2010s, he was overpaid! He wasn't qualified to earn that money! Lord knows Trump would never hire his offspring to do a job they were not qualified for, or overpay them, and may I add that Eric never worked in Ukraine! What do you think about that, libtard?!

And listen...there's so much more to come out of this laptop. Who's to say the entire plan for Putin to seize Crimea and the eastern regions of Ukraine didn't have something to do with Burisma? I know...right? Had Hunter Biden not had a laptop, Crimea might still be part of Ukraine, Donestk and Donbass would be peaceful, and that airliner would never have been shot down with a missile that had absolutely nothing to do with Russia. You see where I'm going with all this? Also, Democrats are all (checks latest talking points) pedophiles and groomers!