Black NYPD: Any of us could've been Eric Garner

[Horatio Parker]

Off duty, black cops in NY feel threat from fellow police

Reuters interviewed 25 African American male officers on the NYPD, 15 of whom are retired and 10 of whom are still serving. All but one said that, when off duty and out of uniform, they had been victims of racial profiling, which refers to using race or ethnicity as grounds for suspecting someone of having committed a crime.

The officers said this included being pulled over for no reason, having their heads slammed against their cars, getting guns brandished in their faces, being thrown into prison vans and experiencing stop and frisks while shopping. The majority of the officers said they had been pulled over multiple times while driving. Five had had guns pulled on them.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I don't get it. These guys are cops. If someone slammed their head into a car or waved a gun in their face absent a legitimate cause, why aren't the perpetrators in jail? Those both seem to be things that cops should be arresting people for.

If black cops are going to be protecting white cops who commit criminal actions in the line of duty, then they are part of the problem and have no cause to be complaing about the problem that they're contributing to.

 

[Davka]

I don't get it. These guys are cops. If someone slammed their head into a car or waved a gun in their face absent a legitimate cause, why aren't the perpetrators in jail? Those both seem to be things that cops should be arresting people for.

If black cops are going to be protecting white cops who commit criminal actions in the line of duty, then they are part of the problem and have no cause to be complaing about the problem that they're contributing to.

It's not the black cops, it's the culture in the American police forces as a whole. It's similar to the camaraderie that forms among soldiers in combat: We are the Good Guys, risking our lives to stop the Bad Guys, and therefore any mistakes we might make in the line of duty are perfectly justified and should not be prosecuted. Even if a black cop decided to make an official complaint against another cop for racial profiling, chances are the paperwork would simply get "lost," or the complaint would quietly be determined to have no merit.

Nobody is policing the police. This needs to be changed.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

I don't get it. These guys are cops. If someone slammed their head into a car or waved a gun in their face absent a legitimate cause, why aren't the perpetrators in jail? Those both seem to be things that cops should be arresting people for.

If black cops are going to be protecting white cops who commit criminal actions in the line of duty, then they are part of the problem and have no cause to be complaing about the problem that they're contributing to.

It's not the black cops, it's the culture in the American police forces as a whole. It's similar to the camaraderie that forms among soldiers in combat: We are the Good Guys, risking our lives to stop the Bad Guys, and therefore any mistakes we might make in the line of duty are perfectly justified and should not be prosecuted. Even if a black cop decided to make an official complaint against another cop for racial profiling, chances are the paperwork would simply get "lost," or the complaint would quietly be determined to have no merit.

Nobody is policing the police. This needs to be changed.

Ya, that was my point. If these black cops are going to actively help protect their fellow officers when they commit crimes, they have no cause to then turn around and start complaining about the crimes that these officers are committing.

Also, the racial profiling isn't the central issue I'm talking about. It's the acts of assault. If an off-duty cop gets his head slammed into a car or has a gun waved in his face, the person doing that to him is going to end up in jail. The fact that the person doing it is a cop shouldn't change that.

 

[repoman]

About the Garner case in particular, it was the fact that he had a long established record of selling loosies that got him profiled. That has more to do with the tension between legitimate shop owners who have to pay taxes and him being at the front lines of a tax (excessively high in NYC for sure!) evading smuggling operation. The cops are brought in as enforcers of tax law.

This is not to say racial profiling does not happen, but Garner's case is not a good example of it.

 

[Horatio Parker]

About the Garner case in particular, it was the fact that he had a long established record of selling loosies that got him profiled. That has more to do with the tension between legitimate shop owners who have to pay taxes and him being at the front lines of a tax (excessively high in NYC for sure!) evading smuggling operation. The cops are brought in as enforcers of tax law.

This is not to say racial profiling does not happen, but Garner's case is not a good example of it.

It's not that they profiled him for cigarettes, it's that they quickly resorted to what amounted to lethal force.

From the article:

At an ale house in Williamsburg, Brooklyn last week, a group of black police officers from across the city gathered for the beer and chicken wing special. They discussed how the officers involved in the Garner incident could have tried harder to talk down an upset Garner, or sprayed mace in his face, or forced him to the ground without using a chokehold. They all agreed his death was avoidable.

 

[Horatio Parker]

I don't get it. These guys are cops. If someone slammed their head into a car or waved a gun in their face absent a legitimate cause, why aren't the perpetrators in jail? Those both seem to be things that cops should be arresting people for.

If black cops are going to be protecting white cops who commit criminal actions in the line of duty, then they are part of the problem and have no cause to be complaing about the problem that they're contributing to.

So, in addition to what they already put up with, they need more shit because they don't take care of the problem?

....about one third said they made some form of complaint to a supervisor.

All but one said their supervisors either dismissed the complaints or retaliated against them by denying them overtime, choice assignments, or promotions. The remaining officers who made no complaints said they refrained from doing so either because they feared retribution or because they saw racial profiling as part of the system.

and

John Jay professor Delores Jones-Brown cited a 2010 New York State Task Force report on police-on-police shootings - the first such inquiry of its kind - that found that in the previous 15 years, officers of color had suffered the highest fatalities in encounters with police officers who mistook them for criminals.

 

[Davka]

Don't be too hard on Tom Sawyer - he's a Canadian, and they don't have any black people in Canada.

 

[Tom Sawyer]

So, in addition to what they already put up with, they need more shit because they don't take care of the problem?

Umm ... ya.

As an example, I work at a bank. If I see a co-worker stealing money from their clients, I have to report him. If I don't, I get fired and go to jail. If my supervisor doesn't take action after the report, he gets fired and goes to jail. If no action is taken against the co-worker after I report him, I have a duty to escalate it or I get fired and go to jail. In no instances would talk of how banking culture has us look the other way so long as profits are maximized, potential repercussions from supervisors or the risk of awkward conversations around the water cooler serve to mitigate the punishment I would receive for allowing the crime to continue.

I would expect police officers to have at least the same level of moral responsibility that we've come to expect from bankers. If they choose to be complicit in the cover up of crimes because they don't want to face the negative consequences which come from doing the job which they have sworn an oath to do then, at the very least, they deserve to be mocked and scorned for their blatant hypocrisy if they complain about these crimes which they helped cover up.

 

[laughing dog]

So, in addition to what they already put up with, they need more shit because they don't take care of the problem?

Umm ... ya.

As an example, I work at a bank. If I see a co-worker stealing money from their clients, I have to report him. If I don't, I get fired and go to jail. If my supervisor doesn't take action after the report, he gets fired and goes to jail. If no action is taken against the co-worker after I report him, I have a duty to escalate it or I get fired and go to jail. In no instances would talk of how banking culture has us look the other way so long as profits are maximized, potential repercussions from supervisors or the risk of awkward conversations around the water cooler serve to mitigate the punishment I would receive for allowing the crime to continue.

Well, suppose if you reported the co-worker, the other co-workers shunned you, made sure you took the blame for any errors and placed you in dangerous situations, and your supervisor made sure that you would never advance? Because police who report other police can face tremendous negative repercussions.

 

[Toni]

I don't get it. These guys are cops. If someone slammed their head into a car or waved a gun in their face absent a legitimate cause, why aren't the perpetrators in jail? Those both seem to be things that cops should be arresting people for.

If black cops are going to be protecting white cops who commit criminal actions in the line of duty, then they are part of the problem and have no cause to be complaing about the problem that they're contributing to.

It's not the black cops, it's the culture in the American police forces as a whole. It's similar to the camaraderie that forms among soldiers in combat: We are the Good Guys, risking our lives to stop the Bad Guys, and therefore any mistakes we might make in the line of duty are perfectly justified and should not be prosecuted. Even if a black cop decided to make an official complaint against another cop for racial profiling, chances are the paperwork would simply get "lost," or the complaint would quietly be determined to have no merit.

Nobody is policing the police. This needs to be changed.

Add in: there are thousands of opportunities to make errors in judgment that can get you killed, get your partner killed or kill someone who might later turn out to be blameless. If you doubt every single action you take, you become paralyzed and therefore much more dangerous to yourself, to your partner, to others in general.

It is a high stress job, no doubt about it. There are other high stress jobs but most of those do not involve carrying loaded firearms.

What is needed urgently is better training for police officers at conflict resolution, how to evaluate risk, how to deal with mentally ill people, negotiation techniques. Also training in cultural sensitivity, training which increases empathy for others, etc. And any training that helps officers feel more confident so they do not rely on firearms or strong arm tactics but resort to those only as a very last resort. These should be continuous and ongoing.

The larger issue is that culture needs to change from one where blacks, particularly black males, are seen as dangerous and threatening. So that all people are seen as people.

I would be very interested in learning about how police officers in other countries, especially ones where the police do not carry fire arms, handle situation.

 

[dismal]

It's not that they profiled him for cigarettes, it's that they quickly resorted to what amounted to lethal force.

From the article:

At an ale house in Williamsburg, Brooklyn last week, a group of black police officers from across the city gathered for the beer and chicken wing special. They discussed how the officers involved in the Garner incident could have tried harder to talk down an upset Garner, or sprayed mace in his face, or forced him to the ground without using a chokehold. They all agreed his death was avoidable.

Avoidable not equal racist.

I thought I read the senior officer on the scene of the garner arrest was a black woman.

 

[Horatio Parker]

It's not that they profiled him for cigarettes, it's that they quickly resorted to what amounted to lethal force.

From the article:

Avoidable not equal racist.

I thought I read the senior officer on the scene of the garner arrest was a black woman.

The racial component was in play when it was decided to use force. As the officers in the article said they had safer options. Pantaleo chose to end the discussion with a chokehold in a narrow space in front of a plate glass window, no matter who the senior officer present was.

 

[Horatio Parker]

Umm ... ya.

As an example, I work at a bank. If I see a co-worker stealing money from their clients, I have to report him. If I don't, I get fired and go to jail. If my supervisor doesn't take action after the report, he gets fired and goes to jail. If no action is taken against the co-worker after I report him, I have a duty to escalate it or I get fired and go to jail. In no instances would talk of how banking culture has us look the other way so long as profits are maximized, potential repercussions from supervisors or the risk of awkward conversations around the water cooler serve to mitigate the punishment I would receive for allowing the crime to continue.

Well, suppose if you reported the co-worker, the other co-workers shunned you, made sure you took the blame for any errors and placed you in dangerous situations, and your supervisor made sure that you would never advance? Because police who report other police can face tremendous negative repercussions.

Add to that suppose you are red headed and it is well known that the word of a redhead is never accepted over a non redhead. And all the redheads have known and lived with this for generations, even centuries. And the thieves respond to your complaint by saying you made them do it.

 

[repoman]

Speaking of redheads and prejudice:

 

[maxparrish]

Off duty, black cops in NY feel threat from fellow police

Reuters interviewed 25 African American male officers on the NYPD, 15 of whom are retired and 10 of whom are still serving. All but one said that, when off duty and out of uniform, they had been victims of racial profiling, which refers to using race or ethnicity as grounds for suspecting someone of having committed a crime.

The officers said this included being pulled over for no reason, having their heads slammed against their cars, getting guns brandished in their faces, being thrown into prison vans and experiencing stop and frisks while shopping. The majority of the officers said they had been pulled over multiple times while driving. Five had had guns pulled on them.

Not to dampen on the "pity the blacks" party, but reality and reason is crashing the moan fest:

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/353864/post-zimmerman-poison-pill-heather-mac-donald

...Alfred Blumstein has found that blacks are underrepresented in prison for homicide compared with their arrest rates. A meta-analysis of charging and sentencing studies showed that “large racial differences in criminal offending,” not racism, explained why more blacks were in prison proportionately than whites and for longer terms, according to criminologists Robert Sampson and Janet Lauritsen.

In fact, if a black parent wants to radically reduce his son’s chance of getting shot, he should live in a white neighborhood. New York’s crime profile is typical of urban-crime disparities across the country. The per capita shooting rate in predominantly black Brownsville, Brooklyn, is 81 times higher than that of predominantly white and Asian Bay Ridge, Brooklyn, according to the New York Police Department. Blacks in 2012 committed about 75 percent of all shootings in New York, and whites a little over 2 percent, though blacks are 23 percent of the city’s population and whites 35 percent. Blacks are 60 percent of the city’s homicide victims. Their killers? They aren’t white.

The picture is the same nationally. Black males between the ages of 14 and 24 committed homicide at ten times the rate of white and Hispanic males combined in the same age category in 2008, resulting in a homicide victimization rate nearly as disproportionate. As for interracial crime, black homicide offenders in 2010 had nearly three times the absolute number of white and Hispanic victims as there were black victims of white and Hispanic homicide offenders, despite blacks’ much lower population numbers.

Gee, if blacks in NY are being profiled, is it really any wonder?

 

[Horatio Parker]

Off duty, black cops in NY feel threat from fellow police

Not to dampen on the "pity the blacks" party, but reality and reason is crashing the moan fest:

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/353864/post-zimmerman-poison-pill-heather-mac-donald

...Alfred Blumstein has found that blacks are underrepresented in prison for homicide compared with their arrest rates. A meta-analysis of charging and sentencing studies showed that “large racial differences in criminal offending,” not racism, explained why more blacks were in prison proportionately than whites and for longer terms, according to criminologists Robert Sampson and Janet Lauritsen.

In fact, if a black parent wants to radically reduce his son’s chance of getting shot, he should live in a white neighborhood. New York’s crime profile is typical of urban-crime disparities across the country. The per capita shooting rate in predominantly black Brownsville, Brooklyn, is 81 times higher than that of predominantly white and Asian Bay Ridge, Brooklyn, according to the New York Police Department. Blacks in 2012 committed about 75 percent of all shootings in New York, and whites a little over 2 percent, though blacks are 23 percent of the city’s population and whites 35 percent. Blacks are 60 percent of the city’s homicide victims. Their killers? They aren’t white.

The picture is the same nationally. Black males between the ages of 14 and 24 committed homicide at ten times the rate of white and Hispanic males combined in the same age category in 2008, resulting in a homicide victimization rate nearly as disproportionate. As for interracial crime, black homicide offenders in 2010 had nearly three times the absolute number of white and Hispanic victims as there were black victims of white and Hispanic homicide offenders, despite blacks’ much lower population numbers.

Gee, if blacks in NY are being profiled, is it really any wonder?

As if every black parent in the country doesn't already know that white neighborhoods are safer(and white schools are better). What's next from the geniuses at NR? Only snows in the cold?

I haven't any idea what your statistical bombast has to do with the article or Eric Garner.

 

[Davka]

As if every black parent in the country doesn't already know that white neighborhoods are safer(and white schools are better). What's next from the geniuses at NR? Only snows in the cold?

I haven't any idea what your statistical bombast has to do with the article or Eric Garner.

It's pretty simple. This is code for "those goddam n*gg@ars are only poor because they're all lazy, and we have to shoot and jail them because they're all violent criminals."

 

[maxparrish]

As if every black parent in the country doesn't already know that white neighborhoods are safer(and white schools are better). What's next from the geniuses at NR? Only snows in the cold?

I haven't any idea what your statistical bombast has to do with the article or Eric Garner.

It's pretty simple. This is code for "those goddam n*gg@ars are only poor because they're all lazy, and we have to shoot and jail them because they're all violent criminals."

It is even simpler than that: The duty of cops is to stop crime and in NYC blacks are responsible for far more crime than other races, far more than NYC whites. When a predominantly black community has a shooting rate 81 times higher than white communities then you have more suspects, more crime, and more stops of blacks. When blacks commit 75 percent of all shootings in New York, and whites a little over 2 percent, one detains those persons who are more likely to be the shooters...blacks (especially young black males).

The picture is the same nationally. Black males between the ages of 14 and 24 committed homicide at ten times the rate of white and Hispanic males combined in the same age category in 2008, resulting in a homicide victimization rate nearly as disproportionate. As for interracial crime, black homicide offenders in 2010 had nearly three times the absolute number of white and Hispanic victims as there were black victims of white and Hispanic homicide offenders, despite blacks’ much lower population numbers.

Willy Sutton, when asked why he robbed banks, disarmingly quipped "Because that's where the money is". Well, NYC officers stop blacks because "Those are where the criminals are".

Simple, honest, and racially realistic.

 

[Davka]

What do you think is responsible for those statistics, Max? Are blacks more likely to be poor because they are criminals, or more likely to be criminals because they are poor?