Black on black, White on White, and Power of Misdirection.

[ronburgundy]

False - crime is, on average, far more prevalent in black neighborhoods than whites. If blacks understood the biggest danger to themselves they'd appreciate greater police resources being dedicated to their neighborhoods so that the biggest source of victimization is reduced: black men commiting crimes against them despite the increase in police victimization rates.

This is proven by victimization surveys and other analysis of the victims themselves, and therefore mot due to racist data collectors and racist methods of counting crimes.

If LE singles out people of color, arrests them when they let whites off with a warning, charges them with more severe crimes than whites, and give them harsher penalties, of course you have higher crime in minority communities. It's a self fulfilling prophecy.

So cops let white murderers (who mostly murder white people) off with a warning? Nearly every type of of violent crime is several times more probable among black persons. The data falsifies the notion that whites are just getting lesser charges since that predicts whites would be more likely to be convicted of the lesser homicide charges like Manslaughter, yet blacks are more likely to be convicted of every single type of wrongful death charge, from the least to most serious.
Oh, and the central claim everyone agrees with is that most crimes (especially murders) are committed within race. So, if white murderers are being "let off", then that means that cops and prosecutors try harder to prosecute when a black person is murdered than when a white person is murdered? How does that fit into the narrative that its nothing but the racism of cops and prosecutors?

In addition, there are anonymous surveys about crime victimization which supports the DOJ arrest and conviction data, yet has nothing to do with whether the perp is ever arrested or convicted. It isn't just cops and DAs that implicate high crime rates among blacks, it is blacks themselves who do so by reporting their own greater victimization, which is almost always by other blacks.

Harsher penalties and things like cops looking for a reason to arrest even when no crime is reported by anyone can account for some inflated arrest and conviction rates in some more minor crimes, but cannot plausibly account for the consistently 2-8 fold higher rates in nearly every violent and property crime category in not only DOJ stats but based up victim reports.

 

[Horatio Parker]

If the relationship of murderers to murdered, or violent offenders to victims were one to one, you might have a point.

I'm not arguing that blacks commit crime at the same rate as whites, but that the picture is distorted because blacks are over-arrested, overcharged and over-convicted when compared to whites.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

A drop the mic moment.

On another level, there are those White people who reflexively comment on our threads with responses about Black-on-Black crime, with links to FBI statistics, purporting to provide context for their argument that we Black people harm each other more than White police officers harm us. Often, they parrot right-wing pundits or hit back with comments about how Black-on-Black crime overrules these slaughters at the hands of White police. “But, but, but Stacey, Black people are more likely to kill each other.”

And then I have to say something like, “But, but, but Katie, what if Arabs said to White people, ‘You know, White people kill more White people than ISIS or Al Qaeda’?”

- See more at: http://damemagazine.com/2014/12/15/...-me-wipe-away-your-tears#sthash.BE95sh9i.dpuf

 

[Loren Pechtel]

You're looking for the source of the problem in the living room of racism.

No Loren. I get the joke, because I get the tragedy. You are the one confused, as usual.

Police overly patrol black neighborhoods, overly stop black drivers, over frisk black citizens while white citizens prove time and time again to be in equal portion as guilty of breaking the law and sometimes slightly more so.

I am not in the living room, the police are.

Cops patrol where the crime is. If that ends up being black neighborhoods blame the blacks who are committing the crimes.

There's a damning tidbit on traffic stops: The police were accused of this in London. They put in some automated license plate readers that would alert the cops to plates with a problem. The readers flagged black drivers in the same proportions that the cops did.

And the reason is drugs. Catching a white guy making a street buy is usually pretty easy. Thus whites should be disproportionately guilty. If the numbers match it's evidence against you.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

If the relationship of murderers to murdered, or violent offenders to victims were one to one, you might have a point.

I'm not arguing that blacks commit crime at the same rate as whites, but that the picture is distorted because blacks are over-arrested, overcharged and over-convicted when compared to whites.

Which would require a huge majority of unsolved crimes being committed by whites. I see no reason to think this is true.

 

[Horatio Parker]

If the relationship of murderers to murdered, or violent offenders to victims were one to one, you might have a point.

I'm not arguing that blacks commit crime at the same rate as whites, but that the picture is distorted because blacks are over-arrested, overcharged and over-convicted when compared to whites.

Which would require a huge majority of unsolved crimes being committed by whites. I see no reason to think this is true.

That's not it at all. What I'm thinking of is the fact that a single incident can have multiple offenders.

 

[One]

So cops let white murderers (who mostly murder white people) off with a warning?

No, but they are given leniency that minorities are not.
A white person can shoot up an entire theater full of people, for example, yet be captured alive to stand trial with an "insanity" defense. Whites with prolific killing tendencies also evade capture for years, if they are caught at all. The databases on cold case files are a testament to this fact. That whites kill other whites while having the benefit of having their actions minimized, justified or excused is the actual invisible elephant in the room. Minority America does not have this luxury.

Nearly every type of of violent crime is several times more probable among black persons. The data falsifies the notion that whites are just getting lesser charges since that predicts whites would be more likely to be convicted of the lesser homicide charges like Manslaughter, yet blacks are more likely to be convicted of every single type of wrongful death charge, from the least to most serious.

In recent years, the advance of technology has shown us many instances where minorities have been wrongfully convicted of crimes simply because it was more convenient for those in charge. Whites are more likely to have the legal and financial resources at their disposal to minimize their charges, evade capture, and have their records sealed, which means they will not show up in statistics. Whites are often more connected, too, in who they know in places of authority to give aid to their situations as well.

So, if white murderers are being "let off", then that means that cops and prosecutors try harder to prosecute when a black person is murdered than when a white person is murdered?

It is easier to convict a minority of a crime due to societal bias, often irrespective of the actual evidence presented in a case. Secondly, crime has a direct correlation with the poverty level. The meth problem and the resulting crime level in the Midwest has zero to do with minorities, for example, yet it is a testament to what poverty does to all people - it creates conditions where violence, drugs and poor decisions are common place.

Yet a white person will not be compared to their meth head or heroin addicted counterpart the way a minority has to overcome their ghetto relation. For that same reason, no one will classify a white person shooting up a store in Tulsa, Oklahoma as "white on white crime" because the crimes of whites are categorized simply as "crime" without racial distinction and all the negative connotations associated with it.

It is an invisibility gives the impression that poverty stricken blacks and Hispanics are violent beings in general rather than acknowledging that a poor white and a poor minority can play the same parts in the seedy underbelly of the criminal world.

 

[laughing dog]

There's a damning tidbit on traffic stops: The police were accused of this in London. They put in some automated license plate readers that would alert the cops to plates with a problem. The readers flagged black drivers in the same proportions that the cops did.

First, please substantiate this. Second, why on earth do you think this is relevant? It demonstrates nothing to do with whether the police may have voluntarily chosen to proportionally stop more blacks than whites.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Which would require a huge majority of unsolved crimes being committed by whites. I see no reason to think this is true.

That's not it at all. What I'm thinking of is the fact that a single incident can have multiple offenders.

This would only be an explanation if the typical crime committed by blacks had several times as many perps as ones committed by whites.

If so it should be obvious from having a bunch of people charged with the same offense--something that could easily be determined by anyone with access to the full crime data. Why are there no reports of this being the case??

 

[Loren Pechtel]

There's a damning tidbit on traffic stops: The police were accused of this in London. They put in some automated license plate readers that would alert the cops to plates with a problem. The readers flagged black drivers in the same proportions that the cops did.

First, please substantiate this. Second, why on earth do you think this is relevant? It demonstrates nothing to do with whether the police may have voluntarily chosen to proportionally stop more blacks than whites.

1) Searching for the data isn't practical at present. I've cited it before, though.

2) It's very relevant because we have a process which is clearly not racist that produces the same distribution as is evidence of supposed racism.

 

[Axulus]

And then I have to say something like, “But, but, but Katie, what if Arabs said to White people, ‘You know, White people kill more White people than ISIS or Al Qaeda’?”

- See more at: http://damemagazine.com/2014/12/15/...-me-wipe-away-your-tears#sthash.BE95sh9i.dpuf

I would say excellent point. We are focus way too much on the little things that have almost no impact. Our attention and resources are not allocated very effectively and we are all worse off for it.

 

[laughing dog]

First, please substantiate this. Second, why on earth do you think this is relevant? It demonstrates nothing to do with whether the police may have voluntarily chosen to proportionally stop more blacks than whites.

1) Searching for the data isn't practical at present. I've cited it before, though.

Translation - you are unable or unwilling to substantiate your claim.

2) It's very relevant because we have a process which is clearly not racist that produces the same distribution as is evidence of supposed racism.

Logic fail: the reader system flagged plates with problems. We don't know what prompter human beings to flag and stop people.

 

[fromderinside]

Ok, what is it that is intrinsic to blackness that causes black on black crime? Not poor on poor crime, not rap on rap crime, not culture on culture crime, but what is it about blackness that make black people kill one another?

Nothing beyond a stereotype about black men held by both blacks and whites.

This needs to be posted to bring the discussion back to cops on blacks rather than anything else don't you think? POVERTY, NOT RACE, TIED TO HIGH CRIME RATES IN URBAN COMMUNITIES http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/badcomm.htm

Our criminal justice system needs to be adjusted from the top down to compensate for this wrongly held stereotype.

Yes, our social system and commuications systems need to be adjusted as well.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

1) Searching for the data isn't practical at present. I've cited it before, though.

Translation - you are unable or unwilling to substantiate your claim.

No. I meant what I said--it's not practical. I'm working with heavily filtered internet at this point.

2) It's very relevant because we have a process which is clearly not racist that produces the same distribution as is evidence of supposed racism.

Logic fail: the reader system flagged plates with problems. We don't know what prompter human beings to flag and stop people.

It doesn't matter. The "evidence" for racial bias is the stop ratio--but a clearly non-racist procedure produces the same stop ratio. Thus the evidence means nothing.

- - - Updated - - -

Ok, what is it that is intrinsic to blackness that causes black on black crime? Not poor on poor crime, not rap on rap crime, not culture on culture crime, but what is it about blackness that make black people kill one another?

Nothing beyond a stereotype about black men held by both blacks and whites.

This needs to be posted to bring the discussion back to cops on blacks rather than anything else don't you think? POVERTY, NOT RACE, TIED TO HIGH CRIME RATES IN URBAN COMMUNITIES http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/badcomm.htm

Our criminal justice system needs to be adjusted from the top down to compensate for this wrongly held stereotype.

Yes, our social system and commuications systems need to be adjusted as well.

Exactly. Virtually everything that's blamed on racism is really a matter of socioeconomic status. We have no hope of fixing it until we understand this.

 

[laughing dog]

Translation - you are unable or unwilling to substantiate your claim.

No. I meant what I said--it's not practical. I'm working with heavily filtered internet at this point.

Excuses, excuses.

It doesn't matter. The "evidence" for racial bias is the stop ratio--but a clearly non-racist procedure produces the same stop ratio. Thus the evidence means nothing.

Please substantiate the machine generated stop ratio was identical to the stop ratio by humans before the machine generated ratio occurred.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Translation - you are unable or unwilling to substantiate your claim.

No. I meant what I said--it's not practical. I'm working with heavily filtered internet at this point.

2) It's very relevant because we have a process which is clearly not racist that produces the same distribution as is evidence of supposed racism.

Logic fail: the reader system flagged plates with problems. We don't know what prompter human beings to flag and stop people.

It doesn't matter. The "evidence" for racial bias is the stop ratio--but a clearly non-racist procedure produces the same stop ratio. Thus the evidence means nothing.

- - - Updated - - -

Ok, what is it that is intrinsic to blackness that causes black on black crime? Not poor on poor crime, not rap on rap crime, not culture on culture crime, but what is it about blackness that make black people kill one another?

Nothing beyond a stereotype about black men held by both blacks and whites.

This needs to be posted to bring the discussion back to cops on blacks rather than anything else don't you think? POVERTY, NOT RACE, TIED TO HIGH CRIME RATES IN URBAN COMMUNITIES http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/badcomm.htm

Our criminal justice system needs to be adjusted from the top down to compensate for this wrongly held stereotype.

Yes, our social system and commuications systems need to be adjusted as well.

Exactly. Virtually everything that's blamed on racism is really a matter of socioeconomic status. We have no hope of fixing it until we understand this.

So why the references to black on black crime? I specifically said, not poor on poor crime.

AND as I am sure you were told when you where growing up, "I don't care what the kid down the street does, we are talking about YOU." police shooting black people is the issue. if black people shoot black people, if brown people shoot black people, if Martians shoot black people, none of that has a damn thing to do with police shooting black people and doing so in disproportionate numbers. Just like saying what the kid down the street gets to do is supposed to take the moral pressure of you, talking about black on black crime is suppose to take the moral pressure of the police. And just like when you were a kid, Momma ain't buying it.

 

[Horatio Parker]

That's not it at all. What I'm thinking of is the fact that a single incident can have multiple offenders.

This would only be an explanation if the typical crime committed by blacks had several times as many perps as ones committed by whites.

If so it should be obvious from having a bunch of people charged with the same offense--something that could easily be determined by anyone with access to the full crime data. Why are there no reports of this being the case??

If you're with someone who commits a violent crime, or if your association with such a person can be called a "gang" by LE, you can also be convicted, even if you weren't there and didn't know anything about it.

Police use Facebook to determine who associated with a gang, which many kids do for protection. There have been raids here in NY where a hundred teens were arrested and indicted.

As for no reports - why are there no national statistics for police shootings? Must not be any...

 

[fromderinside]

Translation - you are unable or unwilling to substantiate your claim.

No. I meant what I said--it's not practical. I'm working with heavily filtered internet at this point.

2) It's very relevant because we have a process which is clearly not racist that produces the same distribution as is evidence of supposed racism.

Logic fail: the reader system flagged plates with problems. We don't know what prompter human beings to flag and stop people.

It doesn't matter. The "evidence" for racial bias is the stop ratio--but a clearly non-racist procedure produces the same stop ratio. Thus the evidence means nothing.

- - - Updated - - -

Ok, what is it that is intrinsic to blackness that causes black on black crime? Not poor on poor crime, not rap on rap crime, not culture on culture crime, but what is it about blackness that make black people kill one another?

Nothing beyond a stereotype about black men held by both blacks and whites.

This needs to be posted to bring the discussion back to cops on blacks rather than anything else don't you think? POVERTY, NOT RACE, TIED TO HIGH CRIME RATES IN URBAN COMMUNITIES http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/badcomm.htm

Our criminal justice system needs to be adjusted from the top down to compensate for this wrongly held stereotype.

Yes, our social system and communications systems need to be adjusted as well.

Exactly. Virtually everything that's blamed on racism is really a matter of socioeconomic status. We have no hope of fixing it until we understand this.

No, no, no, Loren Pechtel. The article explains black on black deaths as no different from other poor on poor deaths. The cop on black death disparities are a result of a social stereotype in american culture. This stereotype, blacks are dangerous, is held by everybody, black and white, believing young blacks are threats. Socioeconomic status explains violence in poor communities, it doesn't explain why even poor whites who kill blacks or cops who kill blacks get a pass.

I suggest we concentrate on replacing convenient markers like profiling and 'those people' which usually carry with them social mythologies counter to the expressed purpose of their use. A poor man is a poor man. Poor men are not inferior or beggars and poor black men are not killers.

 

[Underseer]

No. I meant what I said--it's not practical. I'm working with heavily filtered internet at this point.

2) It's very relevant because we have a process which is clearly not racist that produces the same distribution as is evidence of supposed racism.

Logic fail: the reader system flagged plates with problems. We don't know what prompter human beings to flag and stop people.

It doesn't matter. The "evidence" for racial bias is the stop ratio--but a clearly non-racist procedure produces the same stop ratio. Thus the evidence means nothing.

- - - Updated - - -

Ok, what is it that is intrinsic to blackness that causes black on black crime? Not poor on poor crime, not rap on rap crime, not culture on culture crime, but what is it about blackness that make black people kill one another?

Nothing beyond a stereotype about black men held by both blacks and whites.

This needs to be posted to bring the discussion back to cops on blacks rather than anything else don't you think? POVERTY, NOT RACE, TIED TO HIGH CRIME RATES IN URBAN COMMUNITIES http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/badcomm.htm

Our criminal justice system needs to be adjusted from the top down to compensate for this wrongly held stereotype.

Yes, our social system and commuications systems need to be adjusted as well.

Exactly. Virtually everything that's blamed on racism is really a matter of socioeconomic status. We have no hope of fixing it until we understand this.

No, no, no, Loren Pechtel. The article explains black on black deaths as no different from other poor on poor deaths. The cop on black death disparities are a result of a social stereotype in american culture. This stereotype, blacks are dangerous, is held by everybody, black and white, believing young blacks are threats. Socioeconomic status explains violence in poor communities, it doesn't explain why even poor whites who kill blacks or cops who kill blacks get a pass.

I suggest we concentrate on replacing convenient markers like profiling and 'those people' which usually carry with them social mythologies counter to the expressed purpose of their use. A poor man is a poor man. Poor men are not inferior or beggars and poor black men are not killers.

What about all the black cops who kill white people? Obviously, white people have it exactly as bad as black people, therefore the cops are justified in killing unarmed black people.

I'm only arguing this because I want people to stop persecuting white people, and because I am a small government conservative/libertarian and thus I want to limit the power of the state. If the state can't randomly execute unarmed black people, then we will all be less free. You want to be free, don't you? [/strawmanforhumor]

 

[Emily Lake]

Correlation is not causation.

You should all know this to be true. Yet it so often gets swept under the rug. Race is correlated with the rate of violent crime. That does not mean that a causal relationship exists between the two. But a correlative relationship is still predictive of expected outcomes - this is how data mining and modeling works. You don't need to know the underlying cause to be able to predict an outcome from a well-defined correlation.

Minivan ownership is correlated with obesity, but it is not causal. It is a strong enough correlation, however, to allow for population-level predictions of BMI based on the proportion of a populace that owns minivans.

Understand the correlation, and the response to the model. Continue to seek a cause.