Black on black, White on White, and Power of Misdirection.

[Loren Pechtel]

So why the references to black on black crime? I specifically said, not poor on poor crime.

AND as I am sure you were told when you where growing up, "I don't care what the kid down the street does, we are talking about YOU." police shooting black people is the issue. if black people shoot black people, if brown people shoot black people, if Martians shoot black people, none of that has a damn thing to do with police shooting black people and doing so in disproportionate numbers. Just like saying what the kid down the street gets to do is supposed to take the moral pressure of you, talking about black on black crime is suppose to take the moral pressure of the police. And just like when you were a kid, Momma ain't buying it.

As usually happens with such issues the reality is that "black" is merely a proxy for "poor".

 

[AthenaAwakened]

So why the references to black on black crime? I specifically said, not poor on poor crime.

AND as I am sure you were told when you where growing up, "I don't care what the kid down the street does, we are talking about YOU." police shooting black people is the issue. if black people shoot black people, if brown people shoot black people, if Martians shoot black people, none of that has a damn thing to do with police shooting black people and doing so in disproportionate numbers. Just like saying what the kid down the street gets to do is supposed to take the moral pressure of you, talking about black on black crime is suppose to take the moral pressure of the police. And just like when you were a kid, Momma ain't buying it.

As usually happens with such issues the reality is that "black" is merely a proxy for "poor".

Prove that is what is happening here. Prove that the only reason these number are so out of joint is because the black people are poor. Matter of fact, you don't have to prove it's the only reason, just that it is the major reason.

 

[EPresence2]

I'm curious where the comprehensive study showing blacks (regardless of community origin) are more likely to get arrested and prosecuted than whites doing the same thing that initiated the arrest. In other words, where is the evidence that someone should have been arrested (more) and prosecuted (more) but was not? I wonder if police reports include a line item providing the reason for questioning a suspect. Some standard answers would help in establishing a relationship between reason for questioning and arrests that stick for how much punishment.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

As usually happens with such issues the reality is that "black" is merely a proxy for "poor".

Prove that is what is happening here. Prove that the only reason these number are so out of joint is because the black people are poor. Matter of fact, you don't have to prove it's the only reason, just that it is the major reason.

You're asking for the impossible.

The proper procedure is to look at how accurately you can predict the outcome given only a subset of the inputs. If A & B & C produce no better a prediction than A & C then you conclude that B doesn't matter.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Prove that is what is happening here. Prove that the only reason these number are so out of joint is because the black people are poor. Matter of fact, you don't have to prove it's the only reason, just that it is the major reason.

You're asking for the impossible.

The proper procedure is to look at how accurately you can predict the outcome given only a subset of the inputs. If A & B & C produce no better a prediction than A & C then you conclude that B doesn't matter.

And what you are doing is avoiding as hard as you can answering the original question
So why the references to black on black crime? I specifically said, not poor on poor crime.

 

[Axulus]

You're asking for the impossible.

The proper procedure is to look at how accurately you can predict the outcome given only a subset of the inputs. If A & B & C produce no better a prediction than A & C then you conclude that B doesn't matter.

And what you are doing is avoiding as hard as you can answering the original question
So why the references to black on black crime? I specifically said, not poor on poor crime.

Because of the emphasis of white on black crime from accused racists and/or cops by your side. It is to compare the magnitude of the two categories of crime by skin color, skin color of which your side talks about non-stop

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Loren, if you happen to get less restricted Internet hookup in the future, please post the study. Would love to read it.

I think it obvious that police profile based on race and treat black as dangerous. If this isnt true and it is just statistics playing tricks on my mind (ie explained by poverty stats) that would blow my mind.

 

[Jolly_Penguin]

Ok, what is it that is intrinsic to blackness that causes black on black crime? Not poor on poor crime, not rap on rap crime, not culture on culture crime, but what is it about blackness that make black people kill one another?

Nothing beyond a stereotype about black men held by both blacks and whites.

This needs to be posted to bring the discussion back to cops on blacks rather than anything else don't you think? POVERTY, NOT RACE, TIED TO HIGH CRIME RATES IN URBAN COMMUNITIES http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/badcomm.htm

Our criminal justice system needs to be adjusted from the top down to compensate for this wrongly held stereotype.

Yes, our social system and commuications systems need to be adjusted as well.

Thanks for posting this. I agree that poverty is too often taken as proxy for race, and this appears to be true in all political directions (both liberals and conservatives are prone to it). It so rarely gets noted or studied.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

And what you are doing is avoiding as hard as you can answering the original question
So why the references to black on black crime? I specifically said, not poor on poor crime.

Because of the emphasis of white on black crime from accused racists and/or cops by your side.

Are the cops in question white? Are their victims black? Are the numbers with regard to race and suspect selection way the hell out of proportion? Is there a history of racism in the administration of law in this country? Is that administration of the law still biased?

It is to compare the magnitude of the two categories of crime by skin color, skin color of which your side talks about non-stop

A comparison which has what to do with the disproportionate numbers of black suspects killed by white police officers?

If every black person in America never killed another black person in America, that would stop white cops for shooting unarmed black men how? That would keep cops from over estimating the age of black children and the danger of air rifles how?

White cops fear black people because of what they believe. Black people fear the police because of the way we have live. But what black people say about our lives will never be believed by a certain segment of white people until enough white people say so too.



I am done

 

[EricK]

Because of the emphasis of white on black crime from accused racists and/or cops by your side.

Are the cops in question white? Are their victims black? Are the numbers with regard to race and suspect selection way the hell out of proportion? Is there a history of racism in the administration of law in this country? Is that administration of the law still biased?

It is to compare the magnitude of the two categories of crime by skin color, skin color of which your side talks about non-stop

A comparison which has what to do with the disproportionate numbers of black suspects killed by white police officers?

If every black person in America never killed another black person in America, that would stop white cops for shooting unarmed black men how?

Why are the two statistics necessarily uncorrelated? eg Suppose there are a set of behaviours which make you more likely to be shot by the person you are interacting with. If you behave that way with an armed civilian, you get included in the black-on-black, black-on-white, white-on-black or Hindu-on-Inuit statistics; if you behave that way with an armed police officer, you get included in the cop-on-civilian statistics.

If this were the case then a reduction in black-on-black killings might very well lead to a reduction in cop-on-black killings because both would be caused by a change in behaviour of some the people who would otherwise have ended up killed.

I'm not saying this is the case, I am merely pointing one possibility as to why the statistics are not necessarily independent of each other.

 

[EPresence2]

White cops fear black people because of what they believe.

This is not true for those having had actual experiences with some black people that colors their subconscious (or conscious) fears.

Black people fear the police because of the way we have to live.

Are you claiming there is no aspect of belief based on misinformation conveyed to others and presented as fact? Are you claiming there are not black people that fear the police because of what they believe?

But then again white folks need to shut up and listen to such grievances? Grievances that pretend to know every cop's true intentions/actions when an unarmed man who happens to be black gets shot. There are times when both perspectives need to shut up and listen.

 

[laughing dog]

And what you are doing is avoiding as hard as you can answering the original question
So why the references to black on black crime? I specifically said, not poor on poor crime.

Because of the emphasis of white on black crime from accused racists and/or cops by your side. It is to compare the magnitude of the two categories of crime by skin color, skin color of which your side talks about non-stop

Any discussion is pointless if you cannot see or acknowledge that violence by police is worse than similar violence by civilians.

 

[Axulus]

Because of the emphasis of white on black crime from accused racists and/or cops by your side. It is to compare the magnitude of the two categories of crime by skin color, skin color of which your side talks about non-stop

Any discussion is pointless if you cannot see or acknowledge that violence by police is worse than similar violence by civilians.

Did I ever say that a police officer commiting a crime is no worse than an ordinary civilian commiting a crime?

We do need to consider the magnitude of the problem though compared to other problems in society, do we not? If three additional blacks were murdered but there was one less police incidient shooting a black under questionable circumstances is that an improvement? This could happen, for example, with a decision to less heavily patrol a high crime neighborhood. Or it could happen if resources and attention are paid to combat police malfeasence at the expense or to the neglect of crime reduction in the black on black statistics that are sometimes brought up.

In other words, what is the marginal benefit in reducing one black murder vs one less cop shooting a black that we can use as a guide in allocating resources and attention in combating?

 

[laughing dog]

Any discussion is pointless if you cannot see or acknowledge that violence by police is worse than similar violence by civilians.

Did I ever say that a police officer commiting a crime is no worse than an ordinary civilian commiting a crime?

We do need to consider the magnitude of the problem though compared to other problems in society, do we not? If three additional blacks were murdered but there was one less police incidient shooting a black under questionable circumstances is that an improvement? This could happen, for example, with a decision to less heavily patrol a high crime neighborhood. Or it could happen if resources and attention are paid to combat police malfeasence at the expense or to the neglect of crime reduction in the black on black statistics that are sometimes brought up.

In other words, what is the marginal benefit in reducing one black murder vs one less cop shooting a black that we can use as a guide in allocating resources and attention in combating?

One would think it is beyond obvious that the MB of one less cop shooting any civilian of any color (let alone black) exceeds the MB of reducing one murder of anyone of any color (let alone black). And I believe the MC of achieving one less cop shooting of any civilian of any color (let alone black) would be lower than the MC of achieving one less murder of anyone of any color (let alone black)

 

[Axulus]

Did I ever say that a police officer commiting a crime is no worse than an ordinary civilian commiting a crime?

We do need to consider the magnitude of the problem though compared to other problems in society, do we not? If three additional blacks were murdered but there was one less police incidient shooting a black under questionable circumstances is that an improvement? This could happen, for example, with a decision to less heavily patrol a high crime neighborhood. Or it could happen if resources and attention are paid to combat police malfeasence at the expense or to the neglect of crime reduction in the black on black statistics that are sometimes brought up.

In other words, what is the marginal benefit in reducing one black murder vs one less cop shooting a black that we can use as a guide in allocating resources and attention in combating?

One would think it is beyond obvious that the MB of one less cop shooting any civilian of any color (let alone black) exceeds the MB of reducing one murder of anyone of any color (let alone black). And I believe the MC of achieving one less cop shooting of any civilian of any color (let alone black) would be lower than the MC of achieving one less murder of anyone of any color (let alone black)

I already agreed with lesser and greater comparisons vs the two type of incidents - now I am probing for more specifics - how much lesser or greater?

 

[Axulus]

A comparison which has what to do with the disproportionate numbers of black suspects killed by white police officers?

Control for other variables - such as crime rate and poverty, and the effect of racism is greatly reduced, although certainly not eliminated, and there is lots of room to improve. I have never denied this. Yet you always trot out the statistics that don't control for variables other than skin color - why is that? What I am asking for is complete honesty and transparency so that we can determine how much to focus on each of the various problems facing society (which is why comparisons to other problems are sometimes brought up. Kind of like how you guys bring up other comparisons when Derec talks about false rape accusuations. Yes, the are a problem, but a much smaller problem than women being sexually assaulted, no? Do you think it is appropriate to say "why do you keep bringing up sexual assault statistics when we are discussing false rape accusations"?

If every black person in America never killed another black person in America, that would stop white cops for shooting unarmed black men how? That would keep cops from over estimating the age of black children and the danger of air rifles how?

If you seriously can't see how black neighborhoods being safer and requiring far less police presence and having fewer police interactions would reduce these kinds of incidents, this conversation is hopeless.

White cops fear black people because of what they believe.

All of them?

Black people fear the police because of the way we have live.

Do you fear black teens and men aged 16-39 far more than the police (as the statistics say you should)? Why or why not?

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Loren, if you happen to get less restricted Internet hookup in the future, please post the study. Would love to read it.

I think it obvious that police profile based on race and treat black as dangerous. If this isnt true and it is just statistics playing tricks on my mind (ie explained by poverty stats) that would blow my mind.

I haven't seen the actual study, only reports about it. I should be able to hunt it down next week.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Are the cops in question white? Are their victims black? Are the numbers with regard to race and suspect selection way the hell out of proportion? Is there a history of racism in the administration of law in this country? Is that administration of the law still biased?

It is to compare the magnitude of the two categories of crime by skin color, skin color of which your side talks about non-stop[/SIZE]

A comparison which has what to do with the disproportionate numbers of black suspects killed by white police officers?

If every black person in America never killed another black person in America, that would stop white cops for shooting unarmed black men how?

Why are the two statistics necessarily uncorrelated? eg Suppose there are a set of behaviours which make you more likely to be shot by the person you are interacting with. If you behave that way with an armed civilian, you get included in the black-on-black, black-on-white, white-on-black or Hindu-on-Inuit statistics; if you behave that way with an armed police officer, you get included in the cop-on-civilian statistics.

If this were the case then a reduction in black-on-black killings might very well lead to a reduction in cop-on-black killings because both would be caused by a change in behaviour of some the people who would otherwise have ended up killed.

I'm not saying this is the case, I am merely pointing one possibility as to why the statistics are not necessarily independent of each other.

And this is probably correct. The heart of the issue is a reliance on violence to get what one wants. It works against the weak, it tends to fail catastrophically when used against the strong.

 

[Davka]

Loren, if you happen to get less restricted Internet hookup in the future, please post the study. Would love to read it.

I think it obvious that police profile based on race and treat black as dangerous. If this isnt true and it is just statistics playing tricks on my mind (ie explained by poverty stats) that would blow my mind.

I haven't seen the actual study, only reports about it.

There just isn't enough facepalm.

 

[One]

Kind of like how you guys bring up other comparisons when Derec talks about false rape accusuations. Yes, the are a problem, but a much smaller problem than women being sexually assaulted, no? Do you think it is appropriate to say "why do you keep bringing up sexual assault statistics when we are discussing false rape accusations"?

I see the two situations being different. For one, bringing up sexual rape assault stats goes towards showing that false rape accusations do not occur in large numbers, an opinion Derec continuously counters. Racial crimes and bias committed by police vs crimes occurring within a single racial group, however, are not the same thing.

But people act like they are because it is more convenient than acknowledging that the power structure of our society - of which the police are an extension - still retains a legacy of racism. To do otherwise would require forcing the power structure to stop doing lazy police work. Because it is far easier to bust blacks and Hispanics in the poor part of town for various crimes than it is to do so in the lily-white communities armed with proper access to legal representation, monetary resources and the added bonus of "who you know."

If you seriously can't see how black neighborhoods being safer and requiring far less police presence and having fewer police interactions would reduce these kinds of incidents, this conversation is hopeless.

It's not that you don't have a point, it's that your point doesn't cover the entirety of the situation.

Let me put it to you this way: My grandmother has driven Mercedes cars for years. The amount of times she has been pulled over by police with the assumption being that she is a drug dealer or is the mother of one staggers the mind. She's elderly and entitled to drive any car she likes. But because she's a minority with a nice ride, she gets stopped because it's about drugs, irrespective of what neighborhood she's in. Meanwhile, I've known white friends carrying all sorts of weed in their cars. Amount of times they have been pulled over and harassed like that? Zero.

So that same assumption that gets my grandmother pulled over in her car is the same one that gets black men frisked or shot. It's much more convenient to blame on it the neighborhood, the black on black violence, etc. But we've had black lawyers, doctors and other professionals in the middle and upper classes getting roughed up by police for a long ass time. What's the excuse for that?

Do you fear black teens and men aged 16-39 far more than the police (as the statistics say you should)? Why or why not?

No. I think that reading statistics is all well and good, but they are ill-equipped to educate you about the realities of every day life. Further, not everything that happens in this world gets filed into a neat little report with numbers.