Black on black, White on White, and Power of Misdirection.

[AthenaAwakened]

Control for other variables - such as crime rate and poverty, and the effect of racism is greatly reduced, although certainly not eliminated, and there is lots of room to improve. I have never denied this. Yet you always trot out the statistics that don't control for variables other than skin color - why is that? What I am asking for is complete honesty and transparency so that we can determine how much to focus on each of the various problems facing society (which is why comparisons to other problems are sometimes brought up. Kind of like how you guys bring up other comparisons when Derec talks about false rape accusuations. Yes, the are a problem, but a much smaller problem than women being sexually assaulted, no? Do you think it is appropriate to say "why do you keep bringing up sexual assault statistics when we are discussing false rape accusations"?

If every black person in America never killed another black person in America, that would stop white cops for shooting unarmed black men how? That would keep cops from over estimating the age of black children and the danger of air rifles how?

If you seriously can't see how black neighborhoods being safer and requiring far less police presence and having fewer police interactions would reduce these kinds of incidents, this conversation is hopeless.

White cops fear black people because of what they believe.

All of them?

Black people fear the police because of the way we have live.

Do you fear black teens and men aged 16-39 far more than the police (as the statistics say you should)? Why or why not?

no, I don't fear black males of any age as a group. Why should I? It was a white sheriff that pulled up behind my uncle Will, shot him in the back of the head with a shot gun, then left him in a ditch to gulp and die. It was a white jury that inspite of over a dozen witnesses testifying as to the cowardly crime who let that sheriff go Scott free. If was six white boys I escaped from who threatened to talks me over into the bushes and rape me.

So why should I fear black men? Why should I fear my father, my brother, my child? Do you think about what you are asking before you ask it? You spout your stats with no context, you parrot conclusions reached others who may or may not have since changed their conclusions, and you think you know something about black folk, that you know black folk better than we know ourselves?


You know black folk, when you know black folk.

So if you wanna have something to say about black people, go meet some and get to know some.

And here is clue, you don't get know anyone by beating your gums at them. You have to shut up and listen.

 

[Davka]

It's much more convenient to blame on it the neighborhood, the black on black violence, etc. But we've had black lawyers, doctors and other professionals in the middle and upper classes getting roughed up by police for a long ass time. What's the excuse for that?

QFT.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

I haven't seen the actual study, only reports about it.

There just isn't enough facepalm.

You realize most such reports are behind paywalls?

 

[Axulus]

Control for other variables - such as crime rate and poverty, and the effect of racism is greatly reduced, although certainly not eliminated, and there is lots of room to improve. I have never denied this. Yet you always trot out the statistics that don't control for variables other than skin color - why is that? What I am asking for is complete honesty and transparency so that we can determine how much to focus on each of the various problems facing society (which is why comparisons to other problems are sometimes brought up. Kind of like how you guys bring up other comparisons when Derec talks about false rape accusuations. Yes, the are a problem, but a much smaller problem than women being sexually assaulted, no? Do you think it is appropriate to say "why do you keep bringing up sexual assault statistics when we are discussing false rape accusations"?



If you seriously can't see how black neighborhoods being safer and requiring far less police presence and having fewer police interactions would reduce these kinds of incidents, this conversation is hopeless.

White cops fear black people because of what they believe.

All of them?

Black people fear the police because of the way we have live.

Do you fear black teens and men aged 16-39 far more than the police (as the statistics say you should)? Why or why not?

no, I don't fear black males of any age as a group. Why should I? It was a white sheriff that pulled up behind my uncle Will, shot him in the back of the head with a shot gun, then left him in a ditch to gulp and die. It was a white jury that inspite of over a dozen witnesses testifying as to the cowardly crime who let that sheriff go Scott free. If was six white boys I escaped from who threatened to talks me over into the bushes and rape me.

So why should I fear black men? Why should I fear my father, my brother, my child? Do you think about what you are asking before you ask it? You spout your stats with no context, you parrot conclusions reached others who may or may not have since changed their conclusions, and you think you know something about black folk, that you know black folk better than we know ourselves?


You know black folk, when you know black folk.

So if you wanna have something to say about black people, go meet some and get to know some.

And here is clue, you don't get know anyone by beating your gums at them. You have to shut up and listen.

So anecdotal data and personal experience should trump hard data that comprehensively describes reality? I'm not saying that you are wrong to fear whatever you fear (fear is an uncontrollable emotion), but do you recognize that the more rational fear is the one that is actually the bigger danger and it is irrational to fear a far smaller danger in comparison?

- - - Updated - - -

I see the two situations being different. For one, bringing up sexual rape assault stats goes towards showing that false rape accusations do not occur in large numbers, an opinion Derec continuously counters. Racial crimes and bias committed by police vs crimes occurring within a single racial group, however, are not the same thing.

But people act like they are because it is more convenient than acknowledging that the power structure of our society - of which the police are an extension - still retains a legacy of racism. To do otherwise would require forcing the power structure to stop doing lazy police work. Because it is far easier to bust blacks and Hispanics in the poor part of town for various crimes than it is to do so in the lily-white communities armed with proper access to legal representation, monetary resources and the added bonus of "who you know."

If you seriously can't see how black neighborhoods being safer and requiring far less police presence and having fewer police interactions would reduce these kinds of incidents, this conversation is hopeless.

It's not that you don't have a point, it's that your point doesn't cover the entirety of the situation.

Let me put it to you this way: My grandmother has driven Mercedes cars for years. The amount of times she has been pulled over by police with the assumption being that she is a drug dealer or is the mother of one staggers the mind. She's elderly and entitled to drive any car she likes. But because she's a minority with a nice ride, she gets stopped because it's about drugs, irrespective of what neighborhood she's in. Meanwhile, I've known white friends carrying all sorts of weed in their cars. Amount of times they have been pulled over and harassed like that? Zero.

So that same assumption that gets my grandmother pulled over in her car is the same one that gets black men frisked or shot. It's much more convenient to blame on it the neighborhood, the black on black violence, etc. But we've had black lawyers, doctors and other professionals in the middle and upper classes getting roughed up by police for a long ass time. What's the excuse for that?

Do you fear black teens and men aged 16-39 far more than the police (as the statistics say you should)? Why or why not?

No. I think that reading statistics is all well and good, but they are ill-equipped to educate you about the realities of every day life. Further, not everything that happens in this world gets filed into a neat little report with numbers.

Why is the focus always on anecdotes, anecdotes and more anecdotes? I'm looking for the hard data to show how many incidents of racism we are talking about by the police (or the implied additional incidents that occur strictly due to skin color), and also for each year, so we can look at the progress. Where is that data and analysis that controls for all factors other than skin color? I'm not and never have denied that individuals have experienced individual incidents of racism by the police or whatever.

 

[laughing dog]

So anecdotal data and personal experience should trump hard data that comprehensively describes reality?

Where or what is this hard data that comprehensively describes reality?

 

[Axulus]

So anecdotal data and personal experience should trump hard data that comprehensively describes reality?

Where or what is this hard data that comprehensively describes reality?

That any given black person is far more likely to be the victim of a violent crime by a black man aged 16-39 than they are to suffer any similar level of violence by the police (categorically known as rape, killing, robbery, or other violent assault), as stated previously. This data has already been posted elsewhere, so your ignorance of the data is not very convincing. I get the feeling that you are just trying to waste my time.

 

[Horatio Parker]

Why is the focus always on anecdotes, anecdotes and more anecdotes? I'm looking for the hard data to show how many incidents of racism we are talking about by the police (or the implied additional incidents that occur strictly due to skin color), and also for each year, so we can look at the progress. Where is that data and analysis that controls for all factors other than skin color? I'm not and never have denied that individuals have experienced individual incidents of racism by the police or whatever.

Good question. Where is it? Perhaps if the police kept and shared statistics, we'd know more.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

That any given black person is far more likely to be the victim of a violent crime by a black man aged 16-39 than they are to suffer any similar level of violence by the police (categorically known as rape, killing, robbery, or other violent assault), as stated previously.

Which means it's okay for the police to shoot unarmed black people? And it's okay to do so until the police equal or surpass the number of "black on black" killing?

Does that also apply to "white on white" killing?

 

[AthenaAwakened]

So anecdotal data and personal experience should trump hard data that comprehensively describes reality?

When you present some "hard data that comprehensively describes reality", we might know. But even the FBI states that their stats, no matter how carefully calculated, present an incomplete picture of crime and race in America.

I'm not saying that you are wrong to fear whatever you fear (fear is an uncontrollable emotion), but do you recognize that the more rational fear is the one that is actually the bigger danger and it is irrational to fear a far smaller danger in comparison?

And you know what I should fear not because you are living in it this life with me, but because you have statistics that even that statisticians say to use cautiously?

 

[laughing dog]

Where or what is this hard data that comprehensively describes reality?

That any given black person is far more likely to be the victim of a violent crime by a black man aged 16-39 than they are to suffer any similar level of violence by the police (categorically known as rape, killing, robbery, or other violent assault), as stated previously. This data has already been posted elsewhere, so your ignorance of the data is not very convincing. I get the feeling that you are just trying to waste my time.

No, I am simply surprised that someone could make such a stupendously ignorant claim that there is hard data that comprehensively describes reality.

 

[Davka]

Where or what is this hard data that comprehensively describes reality?

That any given black person is far more likely to be the victim of a violent crime by a black man aged 16-39 than they are to suffer any similar level of violence by the police (categorically known as rape, killing, robbery, or other violent assault), as stated previously. This data has already been posted elsewhere, so your ignorance of the data is not very convincing. I get the feeling that you are just trying to waste my time.

Your ignorance of the significance of data is embarrassing. Your willingness to equate correlation with causation is telling.

Here's a bit of data for you, since you seem to love data so much: As a white male, you are far more likely to be a rape victim than you are to be a murder victim. Therefore - what, exactly? Please tell us what this data set means.

 

[Loren Pechtel]

Why is the focus always on anecdotes, anecdotes and more anecdotes? I'm looking for the hard data to show how many incidents of racism we are talking about by the police (or the implied additional incidents that occur strictly due to skin color), and also for each year, so we can look at the progress. Where is that data and analysis that controls for all factors other than skin color? I'm not and never have denied that individuals have experienced individual incidents of racism by the police or whatever.

Because you can't show statistical flaws with anecdotes.

 

[Axulus]

That any given black person is far more likely to be the victim of a violent crime by a black man aged 16-39 than they are to suffer any similar level of violence by the police (categorically known as rape, killing, robbery, or other violent assault), as stated previously.

Which means it's okay for the police to shoot unarmed black people? And it's okay to do so until the police equal or surpass the number of "black on black" killing?

Does that also apply to "white on white" killing?

Did I ever make any of these claims? Please post a quote or stop putting words in my mouth.

 

[Axulus]

That any given black person is far more likely to be the victim of a violent crime by a black man aged 16-39 than they are to suffer any similar level of violence by the police (categorically known as rape, killing, robbery, or other violent assault), as stated previously. This data has already been posted elsewhere, so your ignorance of the data is not very convincing. I get the feeling that you are just trying to waste my time.

Your ignorance of the significance of data is embarrassing. Your willingness to equate correlation with causation is telling.

Here's a bit of data for you, since you seem to love data so much: As a white male, you are far more likely to be a rape victim than you are to be a murder victim. Therefore - what, exactly? Please tell us what this data set means.

Where in the hell did I say anything about causation vs correlation? Put up or shut the hell up. You are coming off like a religious zealot no different than many religious fundamentalists I debate over at theology online.

 

[Davka]

Your ignorance of the significance of data is embarrassing. Your willingness to equate correlation with causation is telling.

Here's a bit of data for you, since you seem to love data so much: As a white male, you are far more likely to be a rape victim than you are to be a murder victim. Therefore - what, exactly? Please tell us what this data set means.

Where in the hell did I say anything about causation vs correlation? Put up or shut the hell up. You are coming off like a religious zealot no different than many religious fundamentalists I debate over at theology online.

Nice dodge. Your entire OP is one massive assumption that correlation=causation.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

Which means it's okay for the police to shoot unarmed black people? And it's okay to do so until the police equal or surpass the number of "black on black" killing?

Does that also apply to "white on white" killing?

Did I ever make any of these claims? Please post a quote or stop putting words in my mouth.

I am not putting words in your mouth. Do you see where I claim you said something you didn't say? I am asking you evidently upsetting questions. I need clarification, which I won't be getting, or so it appears.

 

[Axulus]

Did I ever make any of these claims? Please post a quote or stop putting words in my mouth.

I am not putting words in your mouth. Do you see where I claim you said something you didn't say? I am asking you evidently upsetting questions. I need clarification, which I won't be getting, or so it appears.

You need clarification from me on whether or not it is ok for the police to shoot unarmed black men? Stop bullshitting me just to score insult points.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

I am not putting words in your mouth. Do you see where I claim you said something you didn't say? I am asking you evidently upsetting questions. I need clarification, which I won't be getting, or so it appears.

You need clarification from me on whether or not it is ok for the police to shoot unarmed black men? Stop bullshitting me just to score insult points.

I am not insulting you. If I were, you would be crying now.

All these threads are centered NOT on killing armed robbers, but unarmed black men/boys. And since you have gone to great lengths to prove that black males should be feared, that the police are acting reasonably, so yeah, I need clarification.

 

[One]

Why is the focus always on anecdotes, anecdotes and more anecdotes?

That wasn't my focus. In my post, I acknowledged that you have a point. My actual statement was that your point does not encompass the reality.

I'm looking for the hard data to show how many incidents of racism we are talking about by the police (or the implied additional incidents that occur strictly due to skin color), and also for each year, so we can look at the progress.

Except much of this data is incomplete, often because the people responsible for producing it fudge the numbers and victims often do not report what has occurred. From my understanding, many precincts also require their officers to "self-report" without oversight. This is another loophole in the system.

Where is that data and analysis that controls for all factors other than skin color?

Where is the data and analysis that is controlled for the factors of political grandstanding, spin and corporate collaboration (i.e. secondary/invisible funding to produce the reports)? Data is produced all the time within the system on both sides solely for the purpose of distraction or aggravation, depending on the election cycle and overall political climate of the country. I was a reporter/columnist for years on the political scene. I know that drill quite well.

I'm not and never have denied that individuals have experienced individual incidents of racism by the police or whatever.

It is not about denying individual experiences of racism. It is more about being able to find an ethnic individual that has not experienced these types of incidents. You'll be hard pressed to do so. To my mind, that speaks louder than the usual dialogue on this subject.

 

[EPresence2]

You need clarification from me on whether or not it is ok for the police to shoot unarmed black men? Stop bullshitting me just to score insult points.

I am not insulting you. If I were, you would be crying now.

All these threads are centered NOT on killing armed robbers, but unarmed black men/boys. And since you have gone to great lengths to prove that black males should be feared, that the police are acting reasonably, so yeah, I need clarification.

Athena, you are dealing out your own copious amount of bullshit based on your emotional connection to the issue and use of common fallacies. You assume that every single black person experiences unfair profiling even when they are doing nothing suspicious and there is no belief/hearsay-component to how they feel about police. The belief is all on the part of police who profile for no reason. The foundation of your counterarguments seems to be an unstoppable slippery slope to "shooting unarmed black men is okay" in the face of whatever evidence is brought to bare on the issue. In your mind and limited experience, Mike Brown must have been innocent of any behavior that resulted in his own death and the officer must be lying to cover for his demonic actions. Despite the fact you know neither Mike Brown nor Darren Wilson. This issue isn't that black-and-white and it's a disgrace to the integrity of the debate to resort to these tactics. In my experience, this debate is turning many a liberal-leaning independent to more conservative for what appears to be unfair application of justice with selective focus. And what's up with the the arrogance of "you would be crying now?" That sounds like something a school-yard bully would say.

It is not about denying individual experiences of racism. It is more about being able to find an ethnic individual that has not experienced these types of incidents. You'll be hard pressed to do so. To my mind, that speaks louder than the usual dialogue on this subject.

Why do you think we mostly only hear about bad news dude? People are more likely to complain publicly than note that something didn't happen. This may only speak louder because that's all you're hearing.