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Black on black, White on White, and Power of Misdirection.

AthenaAwakened

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People tend to focus on things singularly. The black on black crime meme is a way not to discuss police killings. If certain media can get you to look over here, you won't see or think about what is going on over there.

All crime is intra-racial (internal to race) because all crime are crimes of convenience, crimes among people close to one another. So the rates of crime within a race will always be higher than rate between races. That has nothing to do with which one is a bigger problem, but who people tend to live among. It is a stat that tells us nothing, except perhaps as an illustration of how segregated our society still is.

Numbers are funny things and can easily mislead. Don't be misled.
 
People tend to focus on things singularly. The black on black crime meme is a way not to discuss police killings. If certain media can get you to look over here, you won't see or think about what is going on over there.
I agree. Like claiming that "black-on-black" crime is not a big problem because blacks are a minority of population so absolute numbers aren't that big.

All crime is intra-racial
All?
Numbers are funny things and can easily mislead. Don't be misled.
Funny. I was about to tell you the exact same thing.
 
It should be called the segregated poor on segregated poor crime.

When you segregate the poor and segregate based on race and put people into manageable "projects", you will find a lot of crime in those isolated pockets of poverty you have created.

The real crime is the rich on poor crime.

And today it is very bad because the rich don't really need any of the US poor. They are mainly living off the poor in places like China.
 
People tend to focus on things singularly. The black on black crime meme is a way not to discuss police killings. If certain media can get you to look over here, you won't see or think about what is going on over there.

All crime is intra-racial (internal to race) because all crime are crimes of convenience, crimes among people close to one another. So the rates of crime within a race will always be higher than rate between races. That has nothing to do with which one is a bigger problem, but who people tend to live among. It is a stat that tells us nothing, except perhaps as an illustration of how segregated our society still is.

Numbers are funny things and can easily mislead. Don't be misled.

You're correct that intra-race crime rates are higher, because crime is a form of interactions and all forms of interaction are more likely between people in closer proximity to each other.
However, you are quite incorrect that this is not relevant for is the issue of police shootings. Proximity and who one is around plays as big a role in cop-civilian interactions and conflicts as it does everywhere else. Most cops spend much more time around, interacting with, and in conflict with blacks than whites as a proportion of the population of these groups. This means that when a cop does something wrong (whether accidentally or otherwise) the victim of this action is disproportionately more likely to be black. IOW, cops are more likely to shoot a black person for the same reason that black people are more likely to shoot a black person. It is the communities they are in and the people they are around. In addition, black people in a heavily black area are more likely to be assaulted than in a white area. The same is true for cops. If a cop spends an 8 hour shift in a black area vs. white area, they will encounter more crime, more serious crimes, more illegal guns, and more conflict and aggression when they arrive on the scene. As it would with all rational people, this puts cops more on "alert", more cautious, and suspicious when they are in these areas. What all this means is that much of the greater rates of cop shootings involving blacks is due to the same statistical and contextual factors that make blacks more likely to shoot another black than a white, and black victims of shootings more likely to be shot by another black person than a white person.

So, the question is then, why are cops spending so much time in black areas? The answer is that this are much higher crime areas, in large part because they are low SES areas. Thus, the high black-on-black crime rate is also highly relevant to this question. That high rate is what brings cops to the neighborhood so often, and the same proximity issue that makes intra-race crime rates higher also makes crimes by cop rates higher in relation to blacks. Plus, the objectively higher probability that a cop will encounter a threat, violence, or an illegal gun in black neighborhoods makes them more likely to commit a judgment error biased in favor of false-positives in threat assessment.

If anti-cop activists would acknowledge these undeniable statistical realities rather than wrongly interpreting every stat and every instance as evidence of racism, then we might be able to make progress in targeting actual instances of racism based police abuse, and in more generally reducing police abuse and errors that are not rooted in racism.
 
...So, the question is then, why are cops spending so much time in black areas? The answer is that this are much higher crime areas, in large part because they are low SES areas...

It is a self-fulfilling prophecy that if you examine a group of people more closely you will uncover more crime.

The police could be spending a lot of time on Wall Street, and they could find a lot of crime, but they don't.

They do as they are told. They concentrate on segregated black areas, which usually means focusing on the so-called war on drugs.

Why no war on Wall Street crime?
 
People tend to focus on things singularly. The black on black crime meme is a way not to discuss police killings. If certain media can get you to look over here, you won't see or think about what is going on over there.

All crime is intra-racial (internal to race) because all crime are crimes of convenience, crimes among people close to one another. So the rates of crime within a race will always be higher than rate between races. That has nothing to do with which one is a bigger problem, but who people tend to live among. It is a stat that tells us nothing, except perhaps as an illustration of how segregated our society still is.

Numbers are funny things and can easily mislead. Don't be misled.

You're correct that intra-race crime rates are higher, because crime is a form of interactions and all forms of interaction are more likely between people in closer proximity to each other.
However, you are quite incorrect that this is not relevant for is the issue of police shootings. Proximity and who one is around plays as big a role in cop-civilian interactions and conflicts as it does everywhere else. Most cops spend much more time around, interacting with, and in conflict with blacks than whites as a proportion of the population of these groups. This means that when a cop does something wrong (whether accidentally or otherwise) the victim of this action is disproportionately more likely to be black. IOW, cops are more likely to shoot a black person for the same reason that black people are more likely to shoot a black person. It is the communities they are in and the people they are around. In addition, black people in a heavily black area are more likely to be assaulted than in a white area. The same is true for cops. If a cop spends an 8 hour shift in a black area vs. white area, they will encounter more crime, more serious crimes, more illegal guns, and more conflict and aggression when they arrive on the scene. As it would with all rational people, this puts cops more on "alert", more cautious, and suspicious when they are in these areas. What all this means is that much of the greater rates of cop shootings involving blacks is due to the same statistical and contextual factors that make blacks more likely to shoot another black than a white, and black victims of shootings more likely to be shot by another black person than a white person.

So, the question is then, why are cops spending so much time in black areas? The answer is that this are much higher crime areas, in large part because they are low SES areas. Thus, the high black-on-black crime rate is also highly relevant to this question. That high rate is what brings cops to the neighborhood so often, and the same proximity issue that makes intra-race crime rates higher also makes crimes by cop rates higher in relation to blacks. Plus, the objectively higher probability that a cop will encounter a threat, violence, or an illegal gun in black neighborhoods makes them more likely to commit a judgment error biased in favor of false-positives in threat assessment.

If anti-cop activists would acknowledge these undeniable statistical realities rather than wrongly interpreting every stat and every instance as evidence of racism, then we might be able to make progress in targeting actual instances of racism based police abuse, and in more generally reducing police abuse and errors that are not rooted in racism.

I am not discussing proximity in term of the police shootings, only with reference to BOBC. Sorry If I was not clearer.
 
...So, the question is then, why are cops spending so much time in black areas? The answer is that this are much higher crime areas, in large part because they are low SES areas...

It is a self-fulfilling prophecy that if you examine a group of people more closely you will uncover more crime.

The police could be spending a lot of time on Wall Street, and they could find a lot of crime, but they don't.

They do as they are told. They concentrate on segregated black areas, which usually means focusing on the so-called war on drugs.

Why no war on Wall Street crime?

Well it is the old joke, isn't

A woman watching her husband wonder around the living room for twenty minutes, looking in drawers, moving books and cushions. Finally she asks

"What are you doing?"
"Looking for my glasses."
"Where did you last have them?"
"In the bedroom"
"Then why are you looking in here?"
"The light's better in here."
 
People tend to focus on things singularly. The black on black crime meme is a way not to discuss police killings. If certain media can get you to look over here, you won't see or think about what is going on over there.

All crime is intra-racial (internal to race) because all crime are crimes of convenience, crimes among people close to one another. So the rates of crime within a race will always be higher than rate between races. That has nothing to do with which one is a bigger problem, but who people tend to live among. It is a stat that tells us nothing, except perhaps as an illustration of how segregated our society still is.

Numbers are funny things and can easily mislead. Don't be misled.

This is epic! This post is basically 100% guilty of what it's warning us about.

- - - Updated - - -

Well it is the old joke, isn't

A woman watching her husband wonder around the living room for twenty minutes, looking in drawers, moving books and cushions. Finally she asks

"What are you doing?"
"Looking for my glasses."
"Where did you last have them?"
"In the bedroom"
"Then why are you looking in here?"
"The light's better in here."

Except you're the one looking in the living room.
 
This is epic! This post is basically 100% guilty of what it's warning us about.

- - - Updated - - -

Well it is the old joke, isn't

A woman watching her husband wonder around the living room for twenty minutes, looking in drawers, moving books and cushions. Finally she asks

"What are you doing?"
"Looking for my glasses."
"Where did you last have them?"
"In the bedroom"
"Then why are you looking in here?"
"The light's better in here."

Except you're the one looking in the living room.

Wrong again.

But what else is new?
 
...So, the question is then, why are cops spending so much time in black areas? The answer is that this are much higher crime areas, in large part because they are low SES areas...

It is a self-fulfilling prophecy that if you examine a group of people more closely you will uncover more crime.

The police could be spending a lot of time on Wall Street, and they could find a lot of crime, but they don't.

They do as they are told. They concentrate on segregated black areas, which usually means focusing on the so-called war on drugs.

Why no war on Wall Street crime?

So, are you saying that it is some inherent fact of nature that blacks commit more street crime? Wall street vs. violent street crime is not a matter of examining a one racial group more closely, but rather examining types of crimes more closely. Wall street crime and street crime are qualitatively different in the direct violence entailed an in the type of law enforcement required to prosecute them. Greater investigation of Wall Street by the FBI and other Fed branches would have no direct impact upon the fact that cops who police violent interpersonal crimes would still encounter disproportionately more violent criminals that are black and thus be far more likely to use force against the black persons they encounter. In addition, the fact that Wall Street criminals rarely engage in direct violence themselves means the odds of violent conflict with law enforcement would be low, even if there was greater enforcement against these crimes.

In addition, the destructive war on drugs mostly just increases the overall # of people turned into criminals and thus targeted by cops, it does not account for the higher proportion of blacks engaged in violent crime. In fact, the proportional difference might be higher without illegal drugs. The difference in incarceration rates for drug offenses is not as great as the difference is rates for violent crimes, and the majority of blacks current incarcerated are there for violent crimes (see this bjs report, especially Tables 13- 16 which show breakdown of prisoners by race and type of offence).
Only about 20% of incarcerated persons of either race are there for drug offences. This is contrary to propaganda claiming most are drug offences, which uses only Fed prison data, even though Fed prisoners account for only about 8% of incarcerated criminals. Of those under State jurisdiction (92% of all those incarcerated), only 15% are there for drug offenses, and most of those have a prior record. Violent criminals may be involved in the drug trade, but they are not violent criminals because drugs are illegal. Whether it is robbery, rape, assault, manslaughter, or murder, blacks are 3-8 times more likely to be incarcerated for these crimes, and it isn't just a difference in convictions because data on victim race shows that blacks are more victimized by all these crimes and the perps are almost always also black. The same goes for property crimes, though the difference is smaller, only 2-4 times the rate.
 
You're correct that intra-race crime rates are higher, because crime is a form of interactions and all forms of interaction are more likely between people in closer proximity to each other.
However, you are quite incorrect that this is not relevant for is the issue of police shootings. Proximity and who one is around plays as big a role in cop-civilian interactions and conflicts as it does everywhere else. Most cops spend much more time around, interacting with, and in conflict with blacks than whites as a proportion of the population of these groups. This means that when a cop does something wrong (whether accidentally or otherwise) the victim of this action is disproportionately more likely to be black. IOW, cops are more likely to shoot a black person for the same reason that black people are more likely to shoot a black person. It is the communities they are in and the people they are around. In addition, black people in a heavily black area are more likely to be assaulted than in a white area. The same is true for cops. If a cop spends an 8 hour shift in a black area vs. white area, they will encounter more crime, more serious crimes, more illegal guns, and more conflict and aggression when they arrive on the scene. As it would with all rational people, this puts cops more on "alert", more cautious, and suspicious when they are in these areas. What all this means is that much of the greater rates of cop shootings involving blacks is due to the same statistical and contextual factors that make blacks more likely to shoot another black than a white, and black victims of shootings more likely to be shot by another black person than a white person.

So, the question is then, why are cops spending so much time in black areas? The answer is that this are much higher crime areas, in large part because they are low SES areas. Thus, the high black-on-black crime rate is also highly relevant to this question. That high rate is what brings cops to the neighborhood so often, and the same proximity issue that makes intra-race crime rates higher also makes crimes by cop rates higher in relation to blacks. Plus, the objectively higher probability that a cop will encounter a threat, violence, or an illegal gun in black neighborhoods makes them more likely to commit a judgment error biased in favor of false-positives in threat assessment.

If anti-cop activists would acknowledge these undeniable statistical realities rather than wrongly interpreting every stat and every instance as evidence of racism, then we might be able to make progress in targeting actual instances of racism based police abuse, and in more generally reducing police abuse and errors that are not rooted in racism.

I am not discussing proximity in term of the police shootings, only with reference to BOBC. Sorry If I was not clearer.


Whether you want to discuss it or not, doesn't change the fact that both BOBC and cop-on-black use of force are both heavily influenced by the same factors, which are the fact that blacks are many times more likely to commit violent crimes and live near (or with) violent criminals. This is why BOBC is not in any way a myth or a misdirection (as your thread title claims) when discussing the issue of police use of force against blacks. It is central to understanding the objective causal factors at play, which go well beyond the singular account you are clearly trying to push, which is racist cops. Black criminals are not only the one's most likely to directly victimize innocent black persons, they are heavily responsible for why black persons are more likely to experience use of force by the police (both justified and excessive).
 
I am not discussing proximity in term of the police shootings, only with reference to BOBC. Sorry If I was not clearer.


Whether you want to discuss it or not, doesn't change the fact that both BOBC and cop-on-black use of force are both heavily influenced by the same factors, which are the fact that blacks are many times more likely to commit violent crimes and live near (or with) violent criminals. This is why BOBC is not in any way a myth or a misdirection (as your thread title claims) when discussing the issue of police use of force against blacks. It is central to understanding the objective causal factors at play, which go well beyond the singular account you are clearly trying to push, which is racist cops. Black criminals are not only the one's most likely to directly victimize innocent black persons, they are heavily responsible for why black persons are more likely to experience use of force by the police (both justified and excessive).

Ok, what is it that is intrinsic to blackness that causes black on black crime? Not poor on poor crime, not rap on rap crime, not culture on culture crime, but what is it about blackness that make black people kill one another?
 
No one has said that crime between African Americans isn't a problem. The point is that blackness has nothing to do with it. "Black-on-black crime" is a frame that presupposes black criminality—that there's something inherent to blackness which makes intra-group crime more prevalent and more deadly. But that's nonsense, and all it does is obscure the history that brought us to this point. After a century of anti-black violence and public policy—of manufactured ghettos, forced hyper-segregation, and state-supported peonage—is economic perilousness and heightened violence among the victims and descendants of those people really a shock? And if it isn't, then why would talk about crime in these communities as a factor of blackness, and not of history and circumstance?
http://www.theroot.com/articles/culture/2013/07/black_on_black_crime_exposing_the_myth.html

“Black-on-black crime” has been part of the American lexicon for decades, but as a specific phenomenon, it’s no more real than “white-on-white crime.” Unlike the latter, however, the idea of “black-on-black crime” taps into specific fears around black masculinity and black criminality—the same fears that, in Florida, led George Zimmerman to focus his attention on Trayvon Martin, and in New York, continue to justify Michael Bloomberg’s campaign of police harassment against young black men in New York City.

Indeed, these fears are the reason that—in predominantly African-American neighborhoods across the country—police gathered and waited. There might be riots, observers said, and we have to be prepared. Why? The protests in support of Martin have been peaceful, and no one has called for violence or retribution. But that doesn’t matter.

America is afraid of black people, and that’s especially true—it seems—when it thinks they might be angry.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...ing-and-the-myth-of-black-on-black-crime.html
 
Wrong again.

But what else is new?

You're looking for the source of the problem in the living room of racism.

No Loren. I get the joke, because I get the tragedy. You are the one confused, as usual.

Police overly patrol black neighborhoods, overly stop black drivers, over frisk black citizens while white citizens prove time and time again to be in equal portion as guilty of breaking the law and sometimes slightly more so.

I am not in the living room, the police are.
 
The key point regarding BOBC is that it is by far the biggest danger facing blacks - that they will be far more likely to be killed and raped and robbed by black men, not cops, not racist white people.

It is about where the priorities lie. Are proportionate resources and attention being dedicated to combat the various causes of black victims?
 
You're looking for the source of the problem in the living room of racism.


Police overly patrol black neighborhoods, overly stop black drivers, over frisk black citizens while white citizens prove time and time again to be in equal portion as guilty of breaking the law and sometimes slightly more so.

I am not in the living room, the police are.

False - crime is, on average, far more prevalent in black neighborhoods than whites. If blacks understood the biggest danger to themselves they'd appreciate greater police resources being dedicated to their neighborhoods so that the biggest source of victimization is reduced: black men commiting crimes against them despite the increase in police victimization rates.

This is proven by victimization surveys and other analysis of the victims themselves, and therefore mot due to racist data collectors and racist methods of counting crimes.
 
The key point regarding BOBC is that it is by far the biggest danger facing blacks - that they will be far more likely to be killed and raped and robbed by black men, not cops, not racist white people.

It is about where the priorities lie. Are proportionate resources and attention being dedicated to combat the various causes of black victims?

In the midst of the Trayvon Martin hysteria, I made a point on the old forum about the disproportionate attention being given to this one death of a black man by a half-white guy, while everyone is ignoring the "elephant in the room"... that black men are killing each other day in and day out and no one seems to give a fuck. In response, I was lectured and shown pictures of the KKK lynching blacks, and even Stalin and Hitler. Its a taboo topic for some reason.
 
Police overly patrol black neighborhoods, overly stop black drivers, over frisk black citizens while white citizens prove time and time again to be in equal portion as guilty of breaking the law and sometimes slightly more so.

I am not in the living room, the police are.

False - crime is, on average, far more prevalent in black neighborhoods than whites. If blacks understood the biggest danger to themselves they'd appreciate greater police resources being dedicated to their neighborhoods so that the biggest source of victimization is reduced: black men commiting crimes against them despite the increase in police victimization rates.

This is proven by victimization surveys and other analysis of the victims themselves, and therefore mot due to racist data collectors and racist methods of counting crimes.

If LE singles out people of color, arrests them when they let whites off with a warning, charges them with more severe crimes than whites, and give them harsher penalties, of course you have higher crime in minority communities. It's a self fulfilling prophecy.
 
Whether you want to discuss it or not, doesn't change the fact that both BOBC and cop-on-black use of force are both heavily influenced by the same factors, which are the fact that blacks are many times more likely to commit violent crimes and live near (or with) violent criminals. This is why BOBC is not in any way a myth or a misdirection (as your thread title claims) when discussing the issue of police use of force against blacks. It is central to understanding the objective causal factors at play, which go well beyond the singular account you are clearly trying to push, which is racist cops. Black criminals are not only the one's most likely to directly victimize innocent black persons, they are heavily responsible for why black persons are more likely to experience use of force by the police (both justified and excessive).

Ok, what is it that is intrinsic to blackness that causes black on black crime? Not poor on poor crime, not rap on rap crime, not culture on culture crime, but what is it about blackness that make black people kill one another?

Nothing I've said implies there is anything intrinsic to blackness that makes black people in the US more likely to commit crime. It is just a fact that they do, and that is all that is relevant to why blacks have more conflicts with the police, including use of force, and including excessive use of force.
Whether those high crime rates are the result of centuries of oppression or some inherent biological trait has zero relevance to the fact that it is the probability of violence (regardless of underlying causes) that makes BOBC so common and makes conflict with police more common than for whites.

To illustrate, lets assume that the 100% of the differences in crimes rates between races is really caused by factors related to income and SES. That would not alter anything I said and your OP would still be wrong in dismissing the relevance of BOBC to the issue of cop use of force. Since blacks have lower SES, they would be more likely to commit crimes and live in high crime areas, which would inherently mean more confrontations with police responding to that crime. IF all cops knew that SES was the core factor and had zero racism, that would change little, since they would still need to respond to those crimes regardless of the underlying psycho-social-historical roots of why some groups are more likely to commit and be around them than others.
 
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