Breakdown In Civil Order

Derec

Contributor
So people with severe mental illnesses should sleep on the ground, since we have concluded that that is a cure for mental illness.
That's not what Emily said. She said that policies should be different because the two problems - homelessness due to economic hardship and homelessness due to severe mental illness are qualitatively different and thus require different solutions. The latter group needs more - not less - intervention. In many cases including being institutionalized, at least for a time.

TV and credit cards

Veteran Member
Organizations that help the homeless provide a variety of resources tailored to the needs of their clients. They help people stand on their own two feet as well as the individual can. Those who cannot should be provided for by the rest of us.

Many corporations and charitable trusts provide funding for these organizations. It’s not just your tax dollars. What the financial breakout is, I do knot no.

I don’t know where the notion that the homeless will destroy the housing they are provided stems from; isolated incidences or assumption. It seems to me that an individual would have to be suffering from a rather severe form of mental illness, to intentionally destroy what is sheltering them from the elements.

thebeave

Veteran Member

I wonder if AOC thinks she has Jedi mind trick powers, and if she just says something and subtley waves her fingers, people will believe her and repeat her nonsense:

And now we have Chicago mayor Lori Lightfoot putting blame on the retailers who aren't doing enough to beef up security of their stores:

C'mon retailers! Get with the program! Spend more of your own money (what's left after the thefts) to fix the problem that we government officials created!

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
Freedom is merely privilege extended, unless enjoyed by one and all.

So you don't think robbers should go to jail/prison?
So you think we should all eat puppies and kittens?

Oh, sorry, I thought I had stumbled into the non-sequiturs and strawmen forum by mistake.

No, I do not think that. And nothing I have said implies that I do. Unless, of course, you take it from its context and deliberately ignore its obvious meaning for rhetorical effect, which would be dishonest and stupid.

TSwizzle

Let's Go Brandon!
And now we have Chicago mayor Lori Lightfoot putting blame on the retailers who aren't doing enough to beef up security of their stores:

C'mon retailers! Get with the program! Spend more of your own money (what's left after the thefts) to fix the problem that we government officials created!

She should also tell women to stop wearing short skirts so they don’t get raped.

We live in an age where reason is in retreat. Replaced with the fantasies of the ignorant.

Loren Pechtel

Super Moderator
Staff member
Evidence really suggests that supervised injection sites are really a cheap way to decrease overdose mortality.
Aiding addiction is not caring, it is abuse. You may reduce mortality at the site because of the availability of Narcan, but you are continuing the person's drug addition which will surely end in death. This drug addicted person has little chance of returning to society. That should be the metric - are we helping people get clean and be functioning members of society?

The problem is we don't have effective means of getting people clean and we don't have enough of what we do have.

Derec

Contributor
No, I do not think that. And nothing I have said implies that I do. Unless, of course, you take it from its context and deliberately ignore its obvious meaning for rhetorical effect, which would be dishonest and stupid.
I think the following, written in the context of people forfeiting their freedom because they have committed crimes such as robbery or grand theft, does imply that.
Freedom is merely privilege extended, unless enjoyed by one and all.

However, I am glad you do not really mean that.

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
No, I do not think that. And nothing I have said implies that I do. Unless, of course, you take it from its context and deliberately ignore its obvious meaning for rhetorical effect, which would be dishonest and stupid.
I think the following, written in the context of people forfeiting their freedom because they have committed crimes such as robbery or grand theft, does imply that.
Freedom is merely privilege extended, unless enjoyed by one and all.

However, I am glad you do not really mean that.
It was written in the context of the 1989 Vancouver Folk Festival, as part of a reworking in English of a French political anthem from a century earlier.

Derec

Contributor
It was written in the context of the 1989 Vancouver Folk Festival, as part of a reworking in English of a French political anthem from a century earlier.
I meant context you wrote it in. I did not know you were quoting somebody playing the 88-string guitar or something.

Gospel

Unify Africa
We need to remove nonsensical crimes from law books (marijuana, sex work being prime examples) but then really go after real crimes like thefts, robberies, assaults, murders etc.

Where do I sign?

lpetrich

Contributor
THREAD. I noticed something fascinating: many of the reporters concocting the new hysteria over "retail theft" are using the *exact same* words and patterns in each story. It's pretty wild. Let's take a look:

Let's use today's dangerous @chicagotribune article as an example. First thing to notice: who does the newspaper choose to use as sources? Here they are in chronological order:
1. CEO of local retail lobby
2. National Retail Federation
3. Police
4. CEO of state retail lobby (5 paras!)
5. CEO of World Business Chicago
6. Pres. of restaurant lobby
7. CEO of Illnois Hotel lobby (7 paras!)
8. New hotel CEO (6 paras!)
9. CEO from earlier (7 more paras!)

Does this look familiar? Check out the sources in the very similar recent @ap article about "brazen" San Francisco "retail theft."
1) Right-wing DA association president
2) "Authorities"
3) California Retailers Association President and CEO
4) "National retail groups"
5) Director of business lobby group
6) Sheriff
7) AG
8) DA
9) Centrist non-profit
10) Atty for prosecutor lobby

It's weird, but both those article source lists look eerily similar to what the New York Times published!
-Corporate spokesperson
-Corporate VP
-"Retail executives and security experts"
-"Industry veterans"
-"President of the Coalition of Law Enforcement and Retail"
-"Some industry experts"
-Governor
-CLER president (again, twice)
-Sheriff

I cannot stress this enough: when you see articles like this, ask yourself: Why is this news? How did it get to the reporters? What is the goal of the article? How did they choose which voices to quote and which to ignore? Who benefits?

Next, did you notice that this article continues the pattern of the same exact words and phrases as other similar recent articles across outlets?

"brazen"
"organized crime"
"flash mob"
"smash and grab."

How is this happening?

One thing that many casual news readers don't know is that articles, and the specific words used in them, are often carefully crafted by expensive corporate marketing consultants. It's something wealthy business groups pay a lot of money for.

There is a big marketing industry for corporations and cops that teaches them to use the same words and phrases when they pitch journalists. It's not a coincidence that different journalists are all using same words, and those words were carefully chosen by wealthy people.

This is intentional, and it subtly changes the way we think. For example, the slick phrase "smash and grab" is pure marketing. It's vague, scary, and hard to fact check. Such theft is likely close to 0% of retail thefts, but it's all we're talking about. What does it even mean?

The result of all of this is a public massively distracted from far more important issues. Did you know that these same corporations engage in wage theft every day that dwarf all other property crime combined? Read this whole thread:

Take the frenzy over “retail shoplifting” from big corporate stores, which has taken over local/national news. Same reporters don't cover the $137 million in corporate wage theft *every day,* including by the same companies whose press releases about shoplifting they now quote. We must help each other become more critical consumers of the news, and we must hold journalists accountable for the role they are playing in scaring the public into deeply destructive human caging policies that crush poor people. UPDATE: it’s especially interesting to compare the breathless Chicago tribune reporting with actual facts: Responding to a Chicago Tribune story, David Menschel on Twitter: "1. Property crime in Chicago is at a many DECADES-LONG LOW ..." / Twitter 1. Property crime in Chicago is at a many DECADES-LONG LOW you irresponsible purveyor of sensationalist, fearmongering garbage. 2. Assaults (which Chicago police call “aggravated battery”) are *DOWN* DRAMATICALLY compared to two & three years ago in the police precinct that includes the Mag Mile. Also down compared to four years ago, YOU AWFUL FEARMONGERERS. 3. Irresponsible “reporters” like @chicagotribune @RobertChannick are creating a hysteria based on falsehoods, then turning around and acting like all they are doing is noting fear in the community WHEN IN FACT THEY ARE MANUFACTURING THE FEAR WITH THEIR REPORTING. Nice to see some actual *evidence*. lpetrich Contributor The Yale Law Journal - Forum: The Punishment Bureaucracy: How to Think About “Criminal Justice Reform” - 28 Mar 2019 - Alec Karakatsanis ABITXNTV on Twitter: "@equalityAlec I worked in retail 25+ years ago, and these thefts were occurring then. Ralph Lauren merch was highly desired. We kept it right at the front by the doors. Every week we had groups “mob” the displays and take off with as much as they could grab. This isn’t some new phenomenon." / Twitter Mal Content❤⚖ on Twitter: "@ABITXNTV @equalityAlec "Every week we had groups “mob” the displays and take off with as much as they could grab." And the store owners did nothing to stop this despite heavy losses??? I'll take, "Shit that never happened, for$1000, Alex"..." / Twitter

Ravindra Kanodia * Trending Non-Gamer of the Year on Twitter: "@caymanislandman @ABITXNTV @equalityAlec A friend used to work at the Apple Store in Palo Alto, and Steve Fucking Jobs would yell at them if he came in and saw that the expensive, frequently-stolen iPods had been moved to the back. He wanted the store to be inviting and enticing and accessible, losses be damned" / Twitter

The Angry Librarian on Twitter: "@caymanislandman @ABITXNTV @equalityAlec Just had this exact conversation with my partner who has worked retail forever yes it's always been happening, no. No one paid attention before." / Twitter

John "6-Hoffa Trunk" Miller on Twitter: "@caymanislandman @ABITXNTV @equalityAlec Expensive items that are hard to sell are placed in areas where they are easy to steal. ..." / Twitter
Expensive items that are hard to sell are placed in areas where they are easy to steal. "Every effort" is made to discourage such theft, but every retailer knows they are easily circumvented. Insurance, however, still pays out for the thefts.

This was very common at radio shack, where items that would normally be marked down for clearance were instead moved to displays at the front of the store. Easily stolen, written up as loss at full price.

Circle K, when it was owned by Tosco, did the same thing with Pokémon and MTG cards. They knew any card packs in the display were going to be stolen, so they displayed packs that weren't selling. Did the same with expired cigarettes.
Lots of anecdotes, no idea how typical this has been in past years. But I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the recent fuss about retail theft is noticing what's been going on for a long time.

lpetrich

Contributor
Alex Karakatsanis has a thread on what the news media covers. He claims that it mostly focuses on the lower-class sorts of crime. But the upper-class sorts of crime that he mentions, like wage theft and tax evasion, are sorts that are more difficult to track down. It has been a struggle to finance the IRS enough to investigate a lot of upper-class tax-evasion schemes, since they can be very complicated.
This is a thread about how journalists decide what is “news” and what isn’t. Anyone shaping the news and anyone consuming the news should understand who decides what counts as news, how they decide it, and what determines what they say about it. Here, I ask a few questions:

This thread is inspired by the gap in what mainstream media treats as urgent and what are the greatest threats to human safety, well-being, and survival.

For example, air pollution kills *10 million people* each year and causes untold additional illness and suffering. It rarely features in daily news stories. Why?

Instead, daily news is dominated by “crime” stories. But even these are “crime” stories of a certain kind: they aren't stories about the many air pollution crimes. They are the kind of "crimes" publicized by police press releases, usually involving poor people.

Much of deadly U.S. air and water pollution is also criminal, but “law enforcement” chooses to ignore it, and thus so do most journalists.

Why is this important? What the media treats as urgent helps to determine what the public thinks is urgent. It shapes what (and who) we are afraid of.

A thought experiment: Imagine if every day for the last 25 years every newspaper and tv station had urgent “breaking news” stories and graphics about the *thousands of deaths the night before* from air/water pollution, climate change, or poverty?

Take the frenzy over “retail shoplifting” from big corporate stores, which has taken over local/national news. Same reporters don't cover the $137 million in corporate wage theft *every day,* including by the same companies whose press releases about shoplifting they now quote. The media’s frenzy has led to emergency actions by many politicians, who are feeling intense political pressure to pass laws, assign thousands more police, increase police/prison budgets, and project an urgency they have *never* shown for wage theft: California Gov. Gavin Newsom Promises to Boost Police Funding Amid Shoplifting Wave Wage theft is more devastating than all other property crime combined. And unlike theft from big companies, wage theft is *by corporations* from workers, many of whom struggle to meet basic necessities of life. It makes people homeless and kids go without food and winter coats. Did you know that mostly bank fraudulent overdraft fees amount to basically the same amount of property theft as all burglary, larceny, car theft, and shoplifting combined? Probably not, because the media doesn’t report on instances of overdraft fraud by banks every day. If it’s hard to grasp the scope of the news’s silence on$50 billion wage theft epidemic, how can we grasp the scope of the news’s daily silence on the $1 trillion tax evasion epidemic by wealthy people? Tax Evasion: Cheats Are Costing the US About$1 Trillion a Year, IRS Estimates - Bloomberg

Viewed in terms of absolute property value and objective harm, this makes much of the media’s obsession with retail shoplifting from corporate chain stores look absurd.

The same is true across public health, banking, manufacturing, employment, consumer protection, tax, and environment: things that cause greatest suffering and threats to public safety—many of which are crimes—receive a fraction of the attention as what police report as “crimes.”

Most people don’t know, because "news" didn’t tell them, that fraud crimes by bankers killed tens of thousands of people. Hundreds of thousands of people become homeless each year because of illegal actions by landlords. Almost never reported each day.

So, who is deciding to cover shoplifting with “breaking news” urgency but not air pollution, wage theft, and fraud that leaves people and their children homeless and in poverty?

The stakes are enormous. The world is careening toward extinction level events and millions are already dying from preventable causes that most people in the U.S. do not treat with urgency.

It’s hard to think of something more important than understanding the information-spreading apparatus that creates this gap between perception and reality.

Most people setting these agendas in the media are caring people committed to helping people understand the world. The NYT slogan is “all the news that’s fit to print.” The WaPo: “Democracy dies in the darkness.” How did such a gap between reality and "the news" develop?

Here are a few questions worth asking, and I hope you’ll add more:

Do the social and economic circles of journalists determine what they think is newsworthy?

Are there habits and customs relating to where journalists look for information, who their sources are, and who has the money to publicize things to journalists that determine what is considered news?

Are there professional economic incentives, racial and class biases, and jingoistic ideologies that shape *what harms* to *which people* count as important enough to be breaking news, or news at all?

What role does corporate ownership and consolidation of media companies play in determining what is covered and how urgently it is covered?

lpetrich

Contributor

John Pfaff on Twitter: "Still waiting for an article abt how conservative Jacksonville FL is dealing with its historic-high homicide rate. Or the spike in Ft Worth, or all the other non-progressive cities seeing spikes. Portland has 650,000 ppl. 0.2% of the US pop. But I head abt it ALL the time." / Twitter

David Menschel on Twitter: "@MrOlmos @kljohnso Some cities with higher homicide rates than Portland that the NYT hasn’t written endless articles about. Dallas Ft. Worth Nashville Atlanta Tucson Tulsa Charlotte Houston Albuq. Vegas Denver Philly LA Baltimore Jacksonville Boston Oakland NOLA Minneapolis DC Milwaukee Chicago" / Twitter

Many Americans Are Convinced Crime Is Rising In The U.S. They’re Wrong. | FiveThirtyEight
And that combination of questions revealed something important about American fear: We are terrible at estimating our risk of crime — much worse than we are at guessing the danger of other bad things. Across that decade, respondents put their chance of being robbed in the coming year at about 15 percent. Looking back, the actual rate of robbery was 1.2 percent. In contrast, when asked to rate their risk of upcoming job loss, people guessed it was about 14.5 percent — much closer to the actual job loss rate of 12.9 percent.

In other words, we feel the risk of crime more acutely. We are certain crime is rising when it isn’t; convinced our risk of victimization is higher than it actually is. And in a summer when the president is sending federal agents to crack down on crime in major cities and local politicians are arguing over the risks of defunding the police, that disconnect matters. In an age of anxiety, crime may be one of our most misleading fears.

...
But those statistics don’t tell the whole story, and that matters in ways that become important when you’re trying to understand the difference between how people feel and what the data say. Not all crimes are reported to the police. Sexual assault, in particular, is notoriously underreported. And there are plenty of crimes we don’t really track well in data — like vandalism, drug use and sales, or public intoxication — which can affect how safe people feel in their neighborhoods, even if the crimes aren’t serious.
But why do many Americans think that crime rates are very high?
Turns out, the local news may be responsible for convincing Americans that violent crime is more common than it really is. Researchers have consistently found that “if it bleeds, it leads” is a pretty accurate descriptor of the coverage that local television broadcasters and newspapers focus on. For years, rarer crimes like murders received a lot more airtime than more common crimes like physical assault. And that hasn’t changed as the crime rate has fallen.

Understandably, seeing stories about violent atrocities on the news every night seems to make people afraid that the same thing could happen to them. According to one study conducted in California, consumption of local television news significantly increased people’s perceptions of risk and fear of crime.

...
There’s a significant amount of evidence, too, that reporting on crime can prop up harmful stereotypes: Studies have found that local news media disproportionately portray Black people as perpetrators of crime, and white people as victims.

There’s also plenty of fodder for this kind of coverage because even though crime has fallen a lot over the past few decades, the U.S. is still a pretty violent country, at least compared to other developed nations.

But often, those fears can be blown out of proportion — not just by wall-to-wall murder coverage on the news, but also by politicians who bring up the crime rate in press conferences and interviews. President Trump is far from the first president to paint a dark vision of crime in American cities, but he is singularly obsessed with the topic, especially now.

...
Some Americans may be more receptive to tough-on-crime rhetoric than others, of course. Republicans are generally more apt to say that crime is a serious problem facing the country than Democrats.

blastula

Contributor

SAN FRANCISCO — The mayor of San Francisco on Friday made a sharp break with the liberal conventions that have guided her city for decades, declaring a state of emergency in one of its most crime-infested neighborhoods.

Mayor London Breed’s announcement came just days after she emphasized the need for the police to clean up what she has described as “nasty streets.” At a news conference at City Hall, steps away from where drug dealers openly peddle fentanyl and methamphetamines, she said, “We are in a crisis and we need to respond accordingly.” She added, “Too many people are dying in this city, too many people are sprawled on our streets.”

The neighborhood, the Tenderloin, has been ground zero for drug dealing, overdose deaths and homelessness for years. But Ms. Breed said in an interview that she reached her “breaking point” in recent weeks after meeting with families with children who live in the Tenderloin and said they felt constantly threatened.

Her actions and startlingly blunt language were a marked change in tone and policy in a city that has been polarized over homeless encampments and open-air drug use. Elected as a liberal Democrat, she spoke this week about “a reign of criminals,” trash strewn across neighborhoods full of “feces and urine,” and shoplifting at high-end stores that she called “mass looting events.”

Derec

Contributor
Nice to see some actual *evidence*.
"Evidence" should be in scare-quotes, not asteriskes.
I see no evidence, just some genetic fallacy by the far left-wing shyster and some unsourced claims from the 2nd guy.

Derec

Contributor
This Alec guy is insufferable. He apparently thinks this Sharnalle woman should be allowed to ignore her traffic tickets. Why? Because she is female or because she is black or both? I had to pay all the traffic tickets I have incurred in my life. But then again, I did not have a Yale lawyer going to bat for me - so much for my white male privilege!
Then he quotes Angela Davis, an actual card-carrying communist who supplied weapons for the Marin County courthouse massacre in 1970.
Then it descended into a word salad screed and I quickly lost interest.

Even if this anecdote were true and indicative of wider trends, how that makes what is happening right?

I'll take, "Shit that never happened, for $1000, Alex"..." / Twitter Exactly! Lots of anecdotes, no idea how typical this has been in past years. But I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the recent fuss about retail theft is noticing what's been going on for a long time. A lot of anecdotes by random people on Twitter responding to a far-left lawyer who is against the criminal justice system anyway. Derec Contributor Alex Karakatsanis has a thread on what the news media covers. He claims that it mostly focuses on the lower-class sorts of crime. And why should not lower-class sort of crime be prosecuted? When a bunch of lowlifes rob a store, or steal cars etc. that is a big deal and a city that ignores it goes down the drain. But the upper-class sorts of crime that he mentions, like wage theft and tax evasion, are sorts that are more difficult to track down. This is textbook whataboutism. Nobody is claiming these sorts of crimes should be ignored, but neither should retail thefts. It has been a struggle to finance the IRS enough to investigate a lot of upper-class tax-evasion schemes, since they can be very complicated. I am sure IRS knowing all transactions over$600 will help that effort a lot!

This is a thread about how journalists decide what is “news” and what isn’t. Anyone shaping the news and anyone consuming the news should understand who decides what counts as news, how they decide it, and what determines what they say about it. Here, I ask a few questions:
You really are obsessing over this dude Alec today.

Instead, daily news is dominated by “crime” stories. But even these are “crime” stories of a certain kind: they aren't stories about the many air pollution crimes. They are the kind of "crimes" publicized by police press releases, usually involving poor people.
Because so-called "poor people" are justified in stealing from others, including with violence?
That reminds me of the "How he gonna get his money" story. A teenager burglarized a home and the homeowner shot him. His cousin was defending his actions with the aforementioned quote, but many posters on here have defended him too.

Much of deadly U.S. air and water pollution is also criminal, but “law enforcement” chooses to ignore it, and thus so do most journalists.
What evidence is there that criminal violation of pollution standards is not prosecuted? In any case, that does not excuse so-called "poor people" stealing and robbing.
And there have been many articles and columns about environmental issues. It is not that the media is ignoring it. What Alec the Insufferable wants though is for media to ignore retail robberies, car thefts, muggings and other crimes he excuses in the name of "social justice".

Did you know that mostly bank fraudulent overdraft fees amount to basically the same amount of property theft as all burglary, larceny, car theft, and shoplifting combined? Probably not, because the media doesn’t report on instances of overdraft fraud by banks every day.
[citation needed]. By the way, if a bank overdraft is part of the schedule of fees, it is not fraudulent. And I shudder to think how Alec defines "wage theft".
Now, actual fraudulent behavior and wage theft should be punished. I just don't think this Alec is honest with his numbers.

If it’s hard to grasp the scope of the news’s silence on $50 billion wage theft epidemic, how can we grasp the scope of the news’s daily silence on the$1 trillion tax evasion epidemic by wealthy people?
Tax Evasion: Cheats Are Costing the US About $1 Trillion a Year, IRS Estimates - Bloomberg The estimate is$1T for all tax evasion, not just by "wealthy people". What about EITC fraud? Or fraudulent reparations tax credit?

Snipped the rest because Alec is just repeating the same screed over and over again.

Derec

Contributor
Give it a rest with this guy, will you?

Jacksonville is #37 on homicide rate and Fort Worth is #57. Top 10 are some rather progressive cities from St. Louis and Baltimore to Newark and Chicago. Admittedly, Portland is low on that list (#78) but not because of leadership but because of demographics. Portland has few black people and they have a 5-6x higher homicide rate than white people according to FBI. Where Portland is infamous is not homicides but Antifa mobs breaking shit every time they are upset about something - including Biden's inauguration! Or Antifa thugs occupying a neighborhood because they think a black person should not be paying his mortgage. Needless to say, the Antifa-friendly DA did not prosecute the occupiers.

A lot of crime has been rising in recent years. There is a reason 538 (which has declined quite a bit in quality) is citing data from 1994 to 2004 in the beginning of the piece or why the graphics stop around 2016.

There’s a significant amount of evidence, too, that reporting on crime can prop up harmful stereotypes: Studies have found that local news media disproportionately portray Black people as perpetrators of crime, and white people as victims.
BS. First of all, black people are disproportionally frequently the perpetrators of many crimes - 5-6x more frequent for homicide for example. When 538 talks about "disproportionate" it is relative to population share, not share of crime.
If anything media, especially national media like CNN, MSNBC, NY Times or NPR love to focus on less frequent cases with white perpetrators and black victims. The Ahmaud Arbery case was extensively covered for months, but black killer and white victim are more than twice are frequent than the converse, according to FBI Uniform Crime Report. You would not know it by the amount of media coverage though.

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Swammerdami

Staff member
It seems that Valjean's stealing of a loaf of break is on-topic here, but the billions stolen by Bernie Madoff, or the billions in pollution by Koch Industries are not.

Or at least that seems to be one Infidel's opinion.
But the upper-class sorts of crime that he mentions, like wage theft and tax evasion, are sorts that are more difficult to track down.
This is textbook whataboutism. Nobody is claiming these sorts of crimes should be ignored, but neither should retail thefts.

It has been a struggle to finance the IRS enough to investigate a lot of upper-class tax-evasion schemes, since they can be very complicated.
...
This is a thread about how journalists decide what is “news” and what isn’t. Anyone shaping the news and anyone consuming the news should understand who decides what counts as news, how they decide it, and what determines what they say about it. Here, I ask a few questions:
...
Much of deadly U.S. air and water pollution is also criminal, but “law enforcement” chooses to ignore it, and thus so do most journalists.
What evidence is there that criminal violation of pollution standards is not prosecuted?
I've painted the final, amazing sentence red. I don't see a smiley emoticon; could Derec really be serious here?

I know this is the post-truth era, but may I be allowed to post some facts?

To listen to some, auto theft is one of America's biggest problems. In 2020, $7 billion was lost to auto thefts. (The record number of vehicles stolen was set in 2008 during the reign of George W. Bush, a noted pro-criminal leftist. The highest theft rate was in 1991 during the reign of, as might be expected, GWB's pro-crime father.) The same webpage shows that liberal strongholds like Tulsa OK, Billings MT and Odessa TX are on the Top Ten list of Metropolitan Statistical Areas with highest auto theft rates. Annual losses to burglary are less than$4 billion. Add that to $7 billion of autos and round it up to$11 billion. That's a lot of money, almost $33 per capita! To compare auto theft with white-collar theft is "whataboutism." But, well, what about white collar crime? Bernie Madoff swindled his clients out of somewhere between$11 billion and $50 billion, depending on definitions. (Those figures are AFTER government-arranged restitutions.) That's ONE man who did this, with a little help from his brother and his sons. That's 'billion' with a B. Even using the low figure of$11 billion, the Madoffs all by themselves stole more than all the burglars and car thieves in America in an entire year! (Sure most of Madoff's victims were millionaires, but some lost their life savings and committed suicide. Victims also included many charities, pension funds and universities.)

Some ignorant right-wingers will say that Madoff's prison sentence proves that white-collar crime IS prosecuted, but Madoff wasn't arrested until he spontaneously confessed, despite that the fraud has been reported to Federal regulators many years before! His complicit sons were never charged; that was the point of his confession of course.

Even in prison, Madoff acted like a big-time criminal:
Wikipedia said:
After an inmate slapped Madoff because he had changed the channel on the TV, it was reported that Madoff befriended Carmine Persico, boss of the Colombo crime family since 1973, one of New York's five American Mafia families. It was believed Persico had intimidated the inmate who slapped Madoff in the face.

Just today we see that JPMorgan confessed to crimes in one simple matter and agreed to a $200 million fine. In 2020 fines paid by U.S. banks totaled$11 billion. Is that a lot of money? How many banking executives went to jail? How many had their necks stomped on by an arresting officer?

Here's a rather amazing list. Can you believe that over the years Bank of America has paid $83 billion in penalties? (There's that B again.) If one of their executives had ALSO stolen a car, that would have been$82,000,009,000 and the executive would have been sent to jail.

The penalties for all 100 corporations showed come to $540 billion. Is that a lot of money? Is it more than the$7 billion lost annually to auto theft?

And that list shows ONLY the $929 million Koch Industries actually paid out in penalties. Their crimes were far FAR greater. I guess it pays to have friends in high places. But what about Jean Valjean, hunh? He stole a loaf of bread. Not just a few slices; a whole loaf. Jarhyn Wizard It seems that Valjean's stealing of a loaf of break is on-topic here, but the billions stolen by Bernie Madoff, or the billions in pollution by Koch Industries are not. Or at least that seems to be one Infidel's opinion. But the upper-class sorts of crime that he mentions, like wage theft and tax evasion, are sorts that are more difficult to track down. This is textbook whataboutism. Nobody is claiming these sorts of crimes should be ignored, but neither should retail thefts. It has been a struggle to finance the IRS enough to investigate a lot of upper-class tax-evasion schemes, since they can be very complicated. ... This is a thread about how journalists decide what is “news” and what isn’t. Anyone shaping the news and anyone consuming the news should understand who decides what counts as news, how they decide it, and what determines what they say about it. Here, I ask a few questions: ... Much of deadly U.S. air and water pollution is also criminal, but “law enforcement” chooses to ignore it, and thus so do most journalists. What evidence is there that criminal violation of pollution standards is not prosecuted? I've painted the final, amazing sentence red. I don't see a smiley emoticon; could Derec really be serious here? I know this is the post-truth era, but may I be allowed to post some facts? To listen to some, auto theft is one of America's biggest problems. In 2020,$7 billion was lost to auto thefts. (The record number of vehicles stolen was set in 2008 during the reign of George W. Bush, a noted pro-criminal leftist. The highest theft rate was in 1991 during the reign of, as might be expected, GWB's pro-crime father.) The same webpage shows that liberal strongholds like Tulsa OK, Billings MT and Odessa TX are on the Top Ten list of Metropolitan Statistical Areas with highest auto theft rates.

Annual losses to burglary are less than $4 billion. Add that to$7 billion of autos and round it up to $11 billion. That's a lot of money, almost$33 per capita!

To compare auto theft with white-collar theft is "whataboutism." But, well, what about white collar crime?

Bernie Madoff swindled his clients out of somewhere between $11 billion and$50 billion, depending on definitions. (Those figures are AFTER government-arranged restitutions.) That's ONE man who did this, with a little help from his brother and his sons. That's 'billion' with a B. Even using the low figure of $11 billion, the Madoffs all by themselves stole more than all the burglars and car thieves in America in an entire year! (Sure most of Madoff's victims were millionaires, but some lost their life savings and committed suicide. Victims also included many charities, pension funds and universities.) Some ignorant right-wingers will say that Madoff's prison sentence proves that white-collar crime IS prosecuted, but Madoff wasn't arrested until he spontaneously confessed, despite that the fraud has been reported to Federal regulators many years before! His complicit sons were never charged; that was the point of his confession of course. Even in prison, Madoff acted like a big-time criminal: Wikipedia said: After an inmate slapped Madoff because he had changed the channel on the TV, it was reported that Madoff befriended Carmine Persico, boss of the Colombo crime family since 1973, one of New York's five American Mafia families. It was believed Persico had intimidated the inmate who slapped Madoff in the face. Just today we see that JPMorgan confessed to crimes in one simple matter and agreed to a$200 million fine. In 2020 fines paid by U.S. banks totaled $11 billion. Is that a lot of money? How many banking executives went to jail? How many had their necks stomped on by an arresting officer? Here's a rather amazing list. Can you believe that over the years Bank of America has paid$83 billion in penalties? (There's that B again.) If one of their executives had ALSO stolen a car, that would have been $82,000,009,000 and the executive would have been sent to jail. The penalties for all 100 corporations showed come to$540 billion. Is that a lot of money? Is it more than the $7 billion lost annually to auto theft? And that list shows ONLY the$929 million Koch Industries actually paid out in penalties. Their crimes were far FAR greater. I guess it pays to have friends in high places.

But what about Jean Valjean, hunh? He stole a loaf of bread. Not just a few slices; a whole loaf.
It's almost like there is a trend and that trend is "Affluenza"

Rhea

Cyborg with a Tiara
Staff member
It seems that Valjean's stealing of a loaf of break is on-topic here, but the billions stolen by Bernie Madoff, or the billions in pollution by Koch Industries are not.

Or at least that seems to be one Infidel's opinion.
But the upper-class sorts of crime that he mentions, like wage theft and tax evasion, are sorts that are more difficult to track down.
This is textbook whataboutism. Nobody is claiming these sorts of crimes should be ignored, but neither should retail thefts.

It has been a struggle to finance the IRS enough to investigate a lot of upper-class tax-evasion schemes, since they can be very complicated.
...
This is a thread about how journalists decide what is “news” and what isn’t. Anyone shaping the news and anyone consuming the news should understand who decides what counts as news, how they decide it, and what determines what they say about it. Here, I ask a few questions:
...
Much of deadly U.S. air and water pollution is also criminal, but “law enforcement” chooses to ignore it, and thus so do most journalists.
What evidence is there that criminal violation of pollution standards is not prosecuted?
I've painted the final, amazing sentence red. I don't see a smiley emoticon; could Derec really be serious here?

I know this is the post-truth era, but may I be allowed to post some facts?

To listen to some, auto theft is one of America's biggest problems. In 2020, $7 billion was lost to auto thefts. (The record number of vehicles stolen was set in 2008 during the reign of George W. Bush, a noted pro-criminal leftist. The highest theft rate was in 1991 during the reign of, as might be expected, GWB's pro-crime father.) The same webpage shows that liberal strongholds like Tulsa OK, Billings MT and Odessa TX are on the Top Ten list of Metropolitan Statistical Areas with highest auto theft rates. Annual losses to burglary are less than$4 billion. Add that to $7 billion of autos and round it up to$11 billion. That's a lot of money, almost $33 per capita! To compare auto theft with white-collar theft is "whataboutism." But, well, what about white collar crime? Bernie Madoff swindled his clients out of somewhere between$11 billion and $50 billion, depending on definitions. (Those figures are AFTER government-arranged restitutions.) That's ONE man who did this, with a little help from his brother and his sons. That's 'billion' with a B. Even using the low figure of$11 billion, the Madoffs all by themselves stole more than all the burglars and car thieves in America in an entire year! (Sure most of Madoff's victims were millionaires, but some lost their life savings and committed suicide. Victims also included many charities, pension funds and universities.)

Some ignorant right-wingers will say that Madoff's prison sentence proves that white-collar crime IS prosecuted, but Madoff wasn't arrested until he spontaneously confessed, despite that the fraud has been reported to Federal regulators many years before! His complicit sons were never charged; that was the point of his confession of course.

Even in prison, Madoff acted like a big-time criminal:
Wikipedia said:
After an inmate slapped Madoff because he had changed the channel on the TV, it was reported that Madoff befriended Carmine Persico, boss of the Colombo crime family since 1973, one of New York's five American Mafia families. It was believed Persico had intimidated the inmate who slapped Madoff in the face.

Just today we see that JPMorgan confessed to crimes in one simple matter and agreed to a $200 million fine. In 2020 fines paid by U.S. banks totaled$11 billion. Is that a lot of money? How many banking executives went to jail? How many had their necks stomped on by an arresting officer?

Here's a rather amazing list. Can you believe that over the years Bank of America has paid $83 billion in penalties? (There's that B again.) If one of their executives had ALSO stolen a car, that would have been$82,000,009,000 and the executive would have been sent to jail.

The penalties for all 100 corporations showed come to $540 billion. Is that a lot of money? Is it more than the$7 billion lost annually to auto theft?

And that list shows ONLY the $929 million Koch Industries actually paid out in penalties. Their crimes were far FAR greater. I guess it pays to have friends in high places. But what about Jean Valjean, hunh? He stole a loaf of bread. Not just a few slices; a whole loaf. This is a straightforward exposure of the real problems. And Swammer only outline ONE white collar criminal. And that is the picture that people are fed lies to overlook. Thanks Swammer, that is very important. Quoting For Truth. thebeave Veteran Member It seems that Valjean's stealing of a loaf of break is on-topic here, but the billions stolen by Bernie Madoff, or the billions in pollution by Koch Industries are not. Or at least that seems to be one Infidel's opinion. But the upper-class sorts of crime that he mentions, like wage theft and tax evasion, are sorts that are more difficult to track down. This is textbook whataboutism. Nobody is claiming these sorts of crimes should be ignored, but neither should retail thefts. It has been a struggle to finance the IRS enough to investigate a lot of upper-class tax-evasion schemes, since they can be very complicated. ... This is a thread about how journalists decide what is “news” and what isn’t. Anyone shaping the news and anyone consuming the news should understand who decides what counts as news, how they decide it, and what determines what they say about it. Here, I ask a few questions: ... Much of deadly U.S. air and water pollution is also criminal, but “law enforcement” chooses to ignore it, and thus so do most journalists. What evidence is there that criminal violation of pollution standards is not prosecuted? I've painted the final, amazing sentence red. I don't see a smiley emoticon; could Derec really be serious here? I know this is the post-truth era, but may I be allowed to post some facts? To listen to some, auto theft is one of America's biggest problems. In 2020,$7 billion was lost to auto thefts. (The record number of vehicles stolen was set in 2008 during the reign of George W. Bush, a noted pro-criminal leftist. The highest theft rate was in 1991 during the reign of, as might be expected, GWB's pro-crime father.) The same webpage shows that liberal strongholds like Tulsa OK, Billings MT and Odessa TX are on the Top Ten list of Metropolitan Statistical Areas with highest auto theft rates.

Annual losses to burglary are less than $4 billion. Add that to$7 billion of autos and round it up to $11 billion. That's a lot of money, almost$33 per capita!

To compare auto theft with white-collar theft is "whataboutism." But, well, what about white collar crime?

Bernie Madoff swindled his clients out of somewhere between $11 billion and$50 billion, depending on definitions. (Those figures are AFTER government-arranged restitutions.) That's ONE man who did this, with a little help from his brother and his sons. That's 'billion' with a B. Even using the low figure of $11 billion, the Madoffs all by themselves stole more than all the burglars and car thieves in America in an entire year! (Sure most of Madoff's victims were millionaires, but some lost their life savings and committed suicide. Victims also included many charities, pension funds and universities.) Some ignorant right-wingers will say that Madoff's prison sentence proves that white-collar crime IS prosecuted, but Madoff wasn't arrested until he spontaneously confessed, despite that the fraud has been reported to Federal regulators many years before! His complicit sons were never charged; that was the point of his confession of course. Even in prison, Madoff acted like a big-time criminal: Wikipedia said: After an inmate slapped Madoff because he had changed the channel on the TV, it was reported that Madoff befriended Carmine Persico, boss of the Colombo crime family since 1973, one of New York's five American Mafia families. It was believed Persico had intimidated the inmate who slapped Madoff in the face. Just today we see that JPMorgan confessed to crimes in one simple matter and agreed to a$200 million fine. In 2020 fines paid by U.S. banks totaled $11 billion. Is that a lot of money? How many banking executives went to jail? How many had their necks stomped on by an arresting officer? Here's a rather amazing list. Can you believe that over the years Bank of America has paid$83 billion in penalties? (There's that B again.) If one of their executives had ALSO stolen a car, that would have been $82,000,009,000 and the executive would have been sent to jail. The penalties for all 100 corporations showed come to$540 billion. Is that a lot of money? Is it more than the $7 billion lost annually to auto theft? And that list shows ONLY the$929 million Koch Industries actually paid out in penalties. Their crimes were far FAR greater. I guess it pays to have friends in high places.

But what about Jean Valjean, hunh? He stole a loaf of bread. Not just a few slices; a whole loaf.
This is a straightforward exposure of the real problems. And Swammer only outline ONE white collar criminal. And that is the picture that people are fed lies to overlook.

Thanks Swammer, that is very important. Quoting For Truth.
What Swammer wrote is a classic derail. Read the title of this thread and the OP. We are not talking about white collar crimes perpetrated by rich individuals and corporations. [removed]

Last edited by a moderator:

Jarhyn

Wizard
It seems that Valjean's stealing of a loaf of break is on-topic here, but the billions stolen by Bernie Madoff, or the billions in pollution by Koch Industries are not.

Or at least that seems to be one Infidel's opinion.
But the upper-class sorts of crime that he mentions, like wage theft and tax evasion, are sorts that are more difficult to track down.
This is textbook whataboutism. Nobody is claiming these sorts of crimes should be ignored, but neither should retail thefts.

It has been a struggle to finance the IRS enough to investigate a lot of upper-class tax-evasion schemes, since they can be very complicated.
...
This is a thread about how journalists decide what is “news” and what isn’t. Anyone shaping the news and anyone consuming the news should understand who decides what counts as news, how they decide it, and what determines what they say about it. Here, I ask a few questions:
...
Much of deadly U.S. air and water pollution is also criminal, but “law enforcement” chooses to ignore it, and thus so do most journalists.
What evidence is there that criminal violation of pollution standards is not prosecuted?
I've painted the final, amazing sentence red. I don't see a smiley emoticon; could Derec really be serious here?

I know this is the post-truth era, but may I be allowed to post some facts?

To listen to some, auto theft is one of America's biggest problems. In 2020, $7 billion was lost to auto thefts. (The record number of vehicles stolen was set in 2008 during the reign of George W. Bush, a noted pro-criminal leftist. The highest theft rate was in 1991 during the reign of, as might be expected, GWB's pro-crime father.) The same webpage shows that liberal strongholds like Tulsa OK, Billings MT and Odessa TX are on the Top Ten list of Metropolitan Statistical Areas with highest auto theft rates. Annual losses to burglary are less than$4 billion. Add that to $7 billion of autos and round it up to$11 billion. That's a lot of money, almost $33 per capita! To compare auto theft with white-collar theft is "whataboutism." But, well, what about white collar crime? Bernie Madoff swindled his clients out of somewhere between$11 billion and $50 billion, depending on definitions. (Those figures are AFTER government-arranged restitutions.) That's ONE man who did this, with a little help from his brother and his sons. That's 'billion' with a B. Even using the low figure of$11 billion, the Madoffs all by themselves stole more than all the burglars and car thieves in America in an entire year! (Sure most of Madoff's victims were millionaires, but some lost their life savings and committed suicide. Victims also included many charities, pension funds and universities.)

Some ignorant right-wingers will say that Madoff's prison sentence proves that white-collar crime IS prosecuted, but Madoff wasn't arrested until he spontaneously confessed, despite that the fraud has been reported to Federal regulators many years before! His complicit sons were never charged; that was the point of his confession of course.

Even in prison, Madoff acted like a big-time criminal:
Wikipedia said:
After an inmate slapped Madoff because he had changed the channel on the TV, it was reported that Madoff befriended Carmine Persico, boss of the Colombo crime family since 1973, one of New York's five American Mafia families. It was believed Persico had intimidated the inmate who slapped Madoff in the face.

Just today we see that JPMorgan confessed to crimes in one simple matter and agreed to a $200 million fine. In 2020 fines paid by U.S. banks totaled$11 billion. Is that a lot of money? How many banking executives went to jail? How many had their necks stomped on by an arresting officer?

Here's a rather amazing list. Can you believe that over the years Bank of America has paid $83 billion in penalties? (There's that B again.) If one of their executives had ALSO stolen a car, that would have been$82,000,009,000 and the executive would have been sent to jail.

The penalties for all 100 corporations showed come to $540 billion. Is that a lot of money? Is it more than the$7 billion lost annually to auto theft?

And that list shows ONLY the $929 million Koch Industries actually paid out in penalties. Their crimes were far FAR greater. I guess it pays to have friends in high places. But what about Jean Valjean, hunh? He stole a loaf of bread. Not just a few slices; a whole loaf. This is a straightforward exposure of the real problems. And Swammer only outline ONE white collar criminal. And that is the picture that people are fed lies to overlook. Thanks Swammer, that is very important. Quoting For Truth. What Swammer wrote is a classic derail. Read the title of this thread and the OP. We are not talking about white collar crimes perpetrated by rich individuals and corporations. [removed] No, it is lt. The "breakdown in civil order" described by the OP is a whinge of penny wisdom in a world of pound foolishness. We have orders of magnitude more grab just without the smash. Yes, smash is scary, but it's really the grab that makes us angry. Last edited by a moderator: Loren Pechtel Super Moderator Staff member It's almost like there is a trend and that trend is "Affluenza" It's what the Republicans want. Derec Contributor It seems that Valjean's stealing of a loaf of break is on-topic here, Nobody is stealing a "loaf of bread". These are organized robberies of high end stores we were talking about. Also, car thefts have been mentioned. Nobody needs to steal bread in the US. There are food stamps (SNAP). There are food banks. There are soup kitchens. but the billions stolen by Bernie Madoff, or the billions in pollution by Koch Industries are not. Those would be separate topics. By the way, Madoff was prosecuted, convicted and received what amounted to a life sentence without parole. Compare that with murderous terrorists like Kathy Boudin or David Gilbert who were released prematurely because of political meddling. And what particular alleged illegal actions by Koch Industries do you have in mind? What evidence is there that criminal violation of pollution standards is not prosecuted? I've painted the final, amazing sentence red. I don't see a smiley emoticon; could Derec really be serious here? Funny how you decided to emphasize this sentence in red, and yet you failed to address "criminal violation of pollution standards". Lost focus there? To listen to some, auto theft is one of America's biggest problems. In 2020,$7 billion was lost to auto thefts.
It is a significant problem. It may not be the biggest problem in the US today, but when car thieves keep getting released despite stealing cars over and over again, then there is a big problem with the local authorities being soft on thieves.
I have not had my car stolen, but twice some lowlifes broke in and stole stuff from my car. I say, fuck the bastards!

(The record number of vehicles stolen was set in 2008 during the reign of George W. Bush, a noted pro-criminal leftist.
TIL that presidents have direct influence on the rate of car thefts.

The same webpage shows that liberal strongholds like Tulsa OK, Billings MT and Odessa TX are on the Top Ten list of Metropolitan Statistical Areas with highest auto theft rates.
A lot goes into car theft rates in particular areas. However, how does that excuse DAs and judges in California letting a guy go after repeated car thefts?

Bernie Madoff swindled his clients out of somewhere between $11 billion and$50 billion, depending on definitions.
Again your obsession with Madoff. He got severely punished, far more harshly than say the terrorist BLA/WU bank robbers who murdered three people in the process.
Victims also included many charities, pension funds and universities.
Caveat investor.

Some ignorant right-wingers will say that Madoff's prison sentence proves that white-collar crime IS prosecuted, but Madoff wasn't arrested until he spontaneously confessed,
He "spontaneously confessed? So nobody was suspecting him, and he just confessed? [citation needed] on that.

Just today we see that JPMorgan confessed to crimes in one simple matter and agreed to a $200 million fine. When did he confess? He died in 1913. In 2020 fines paid by U.S. banks totaled$11 billion. Is that a lot of money? How many banking executives went to jail? How many had their necks stomped on by an arresting officer?
It is a lot of money. But what does that have to do with the sentence you highlighted in red? You completely ignored that topic.

But what about Jean Valjean, hunh? He stole a loaf of bread. Not just a few slices; a whole loaf.

What about him? How is people robbing high end stores or stealing cars anything like a fictional character stealing a loaf of bread in revolutionary France?

TSwizzle

Let's Go Brandon!
Another weekend of death and mayhem in Chicago;

Chicago's grim crime-ridden year continued its familiar path over the Christmas weekend and into Monday, with three people fatally shot and 22 injured in a city run by woke Mayor Lori Lightfoot. Murders are at a 25-year high, with 793 recorded so far in a city with 2.7 million people. Lightfoot has not commented on the Windy City's carnage, instead posting a video wishing residents a happy Kwanzaa - the African American and Pan-African holiday created in 1966, and celebrated from December 26 until January 2.

Daily Mail

Happy Kwanza !

thebeave

Veteran Member
Another weekend of death and mayhem in Chicago;

Chicago's grim crime-ridden year continued its familiar path over the Christmas weekend and into Monday, with three people fatally shot and 22 injured in a city run by woke Mayor Lori Lightfoot. Murders are at a 25-year high, with 793 recorded so far in a city with 2.7 million people. Lightfoot has not commented on the Windy City's carnage, instead posting a video wishing residents a happy Kwanzaa - the African American and Pan-African holiday created in 1966, and celebrated from December 26 until January 2.

Daily Mail

Happy Kwanza !
Yep. This is the world we live in. Mayor Lightfoot would rather send Kwanzaa wishes, and people on this forum would rather talk about an old white man (Bernie Madoff) who ripped off a bunch of rich people 10+ years ago. Anything to avoid confronting the ongoing slaughter of hundreds of young black men year after year after year. SMH.

Loony Running The Asylum
Staff member
Another weekend of death and mayhem in Chicago;

Chicago's grim crime-ridden year continued its familiar path over the Christmas weekend and into Monday, with three people fatally shot and 22 injured in a city run by woke Mayor Lori Lightfoot. Murders are at a 25-year high, with 793 recorded so far in a city with 2.7 million people. Lightfoot has not commented on the Windy City's carnage, instead posting a video wishing residents a happy Kwanzaa - the African American and Pan-African holiday created in 1966, and celebrated from December 26 until January 2.

Daily Mail

Happy Kwanza !
Yep. This is the world we live in. Mayor Lightfoot would rather send Kwanzaa wishes, and people on this forum would rather talk about an old white man (Bernie Madoff) who ripped off a bunch of rich people 10+ years ago. Anything to avoid confronting the ongoing slaughter of hundreds of young black men year after year after year. SMH.
Is talking about it a solution?

Jarhyn

Wizard
Another weekend of death and mayhem in Chicago;

Chicago's grim crime-ridden year continued its familiar path over the Christmas weekend and into Monday, with three people fatally shot and 22 injured in a city run by woke Mayor Lori Lightfoot. Murders are at a 25-year high, with 793 recorded so far in a city with 2.7 million people. Lightfoot has not commented on the Windy City's carnage, instead posting a video wishing residents a happy Kwanzaa - the African American and Pan-African holiday created in 1966, and celebrated from December 26 until January 2.

Daily Mail

Happy Kwanza !
Yep. This is the world we live in. Mayor Lightfoot would rather send Kwanzaa wishes, and people on this forum would rather talk about an old white man (Bernie Madoff) who ripped off a bunch of rich people 10+ years ago. Anything to avoid confronting the ongoing slaughter of hundreds of young black men year after year after year. SMH.
As if you care one bit about poor people getting killed.

The fact is that we continue as a nation to get fleeced and conned, robbed of orders of magnitude more wealth than all the two-bit shoplifters and petty thieves combined.

This wealth then goes to collect and hide and own the world's collective treasures.

It would be such a shame if someone gained access to money and instead of being broken in the jaws of Mammon, took the opportunity to shove a spear through the roof of the mouth that stands poised to swallow them...

Swammerdami

Staff member
It seems that Valjean's stealing of a loaf of break is on-topic here,

but the billions stolen by Bernie Madoff, or the billions in pollution by Koch Industries are not.
Those would be separate topics.
By the way, Madoff was prosecuted, convicted and received what amounted to a life sentence without parole. Compare that with murderous terrorists like Kathy Boudin or David Gilbert who were released prematurely because of political meddling.
And what particular alleged illegal actions by Koch Industries do you have in mind?
Do your own Googling. Or just bookmark the last Koch expose URL I posted. I'll lead a horse to a URL once, but I can't make you click, or understand an article even if you do click.

Better yet, approach these discussions with a sincere effort to learn. Instead your exchanges are tit-for-tat sentences of highly variable quality.
Bernie Madoff swindled his clients out of somewhere between $11 billion and$50 billion, depending on definitions.
Again your obsession with Madoff. He got severely punished, far more harshly than say the terrorist BLA/WU bank robbers who murdered three people in the process.
Victims also included many charities, pension funds and universities.
Caveat investor.

And you seem obsessed with calling me obsessed about certain people? YOU are the one who rattles of long lists of the names of car thieves, blacks who reached for their cell-phone, etc.
Some ignorant right-wingers will say that Madoff's prison sentence proves that white-collar crime IS prosecuted, but Madoff wasn't arrested until he spontaneously confessed,
He "spontaneously confessed? So nobody was suspecting him, and he just confessed? [citation needed] on that.
Oh my. Start with Wikipedia. Follow its links as necessary. IF you make a sincere effort — show your work — and still have trouble finding facts, THEN appeal for help here.

If your "point" is that falling stock prices made Madoff's house of cards very vulnerable, so he confessed early to keep his sons out of the Big House, then ... congrats Captain Obvious!

And the "nobody was suspecting him" shows that you have severe attention deficit. In the very piece you're quoting I mentioned that people had reported their suspicions to enforcement authorities several YEARS earlier!
Just today we see that JPMorgan confessed to crimes in one simple matter and agreed to a \$200 million fine.
When did he confess? He died in 1913.
I'd like to believe you're joking and know that J.P. Morgan and JPMorgan are different entities. But by now it's hard to guess what you "know"
In any event this rejoinder is a good example of your tit-for-tat approach to learning (or "teaching" or whatever you think you're doing).

lpetrich

Contributor
Alec Karakatsanis on Twitter: "UPDATED THREAD: In 2021, we heard a lot about how police and prisons need more cash because "crime is surging." It's copaganda. I’ve made a new thread of threads with resources to help understand the issue and respond." / Twitter

How Do the Police Actually Spend Their Time? - The New York Times - "A review of publicly available data in three areas reveals that much of an officer’s job revolves around handling routine calls rather than violent crime."
That could be relevant to the new conversations about the role of law enforcement that have arisen since the death of George Floyd in police custody and the nationwide protests that followed. For instance, there has been talk of “unbundling” the police — redirecting some of their duties, as well as some of their funding, by hiring more of other kinds of workers to help with the homeless or the mentally ill, drug overdoses, minor traffic problems and similar disturbances.

Consider “calls for service.” These can be defined as calls to emergency operators, 911, alarms, police radio and nonemergency calls. They mostly begin from calls by citizens, but also include incidents police officers initiate themselves.

Calls for service do not include time spent investigating after an incident; training sessions; administrative duties; and off-duty employment. As such, they are not a perfect encapsulation of how police officers spend all their time, but they do provide a good representation of how police departments interact with the public.

Determining what constitutes a violent crime can be tricky because some agencies don’t differentiate between aggravated assaults (generally considered a violent crime) and simple assaults (an assault without an injury that is generally not considered a violent crime) in their publicly available calls for service data.

How to Lie with Rape Statistics: America’s Hidden Rape Crisis - Iowa Law Review - The University of Iowa College of Law
In a case of life imitating art, just a year after The Wire ended, a reporter from The Baltimore Sun exposed the Baltimore Police Department’s practice of substantially undercounting reported rapes in the data it submitted to the Federal Bureau of Investigation (“FBI”) as part of the Uniform Crime Report (“UCR”) program. The FBI collects data from nearly every police department across the country to create the annual UCR, which has long served as the primary resource used by policymakers, media, and law enforcement for assessing the prevalence and rate of crime in the United States. From 1995 until 2009, the Baltimore Police Department provided UCR numbers that indicated that the rate of rape had declined by a remarkable 74% in the city. The investigation by The Baltimore Sun ultimately demonstrated that the incredible reported reduction in rape was the product of police providing inaccurate crime statistics creating the illusion of success in fighting crime.

Unfortunately, the Baltimore Police Department is not alone in producing defective UCR rape statistics during the past two decades. Media investigations also caught police in New Orleans, Philadelphia, and St. Louis “red-handed” submitting crime statistics that substantially undercounted the number of rapes in their respective jurisdictions.
Then describing ways that police departments undercount rapes. Not only in these four cities but in many others.
In contrast to the widely held conventional wisdom, the rate of rape in America has not decreased over the last twenty years, as has been the case for other violent crimes. Instead, America is in a crisis of sexual violence that has gone undetected because police departments across the country systemically underreport rape.

The widespread police practice of underreporting rapes also creates significant moral and policy problems. Police often aggressively interrogate and harass rape victims—pressing them to recant their allegations. In other cases, police assure victims that they are busy working on their cases when no actual investigation occurs because the complaint is already labeled “unfounded.” That police revictimize, by harassing or lying to, rape victims is unconscionable. Further, undercounting results in police failing to fully investigate rape complaints leaving serial rapists, who one study indicates commit an estimated 91% to 95% of all rapes, free to rape, and sometimes murder, more victims.

lpetrich

Contributor
Custodial Sanctions and Reoffending: A Meta-Analytic Review | Crime and Justice
Beginning in the 1970s, the United States began an experiment in mass imprisonment. Supporters argued that harsh punishments such as imprisonment reduce crime by deterring inmates from reoffending. Skeptics argued that imprisonment may have a criminogenic effect. The skeptics were right. Previous narrative reviews and meta-analyses concluded that the overall effect of imprisonment is null. Based on a much larger meta-analysis of 116 studies, the current analysis shows that custodial sanctions have no effect on reoffending or slightly increase it when compared with the effects of noncustodial sanctions such as probation. This finding is robust regardless of variations in methodological rigor, types of sanctions examined, and sociodemographic characteristics of samples. All sophisticated assessments of the research have independently reached the same conclusion. The null effect of custodial compared with noncustodial sanctions is considered a “criminological fact.” Incarceration cannot be justified on the grounds it affords public safety by decreasing recidivism. Prisons are unlikely to reduce reoffending unless they can be transformed into people-changing institutions on the basis of available evidence on what works organizationally to reform offenders.
I think that we need to use alternative punishments for minor offenses, like keeping shoplifters out of stores and fare-beaters out of transit systems. I think that facial-recognition technology could be good on that, though one has to be careful to avoid letting it be racially discriminatory.

We should also stop drug warring. One should recognize what heroic entrepreneurs drug dealers are and stop hating on them.

I was trying to phrase opposition to drug warring in terms that the Right would understand.

Why “Crime” Isn’t the Question and Police Aren’t the Answer ❧ Current Affairs
I would not go as far as he does. We need some police forces, even if cops aren't the best people for handling many sorts of misconduct.

The Yale Law Journal - Forum: The Punishment Bureaucracy: How to Think About “Criminal Justice Reform” - another self-interested lobby?

AK also mentioned Big Banks Charged Billions in Overdraft Fees During the Worst Months of the Pandemic - The American Prospect - "Recent financial disclosures show overdraft to be lucrative for commercial banks, and a burden on their most vulnerable customers."

Harry Bosch

Contributor
Custodial Sanctions and Reoffending: A Meta-Analytic Review | Crime and Justice
Beginning in the 1970s, the United States began an experiment in mass imprisonment. Supporters argued that harsh punishments such as imprisonment reduce crime by deterring inmates from reoffending. Skeptics argued that imprisonment may have a criminogenic effect. The skeptics were right. Previous narrative reviews and meta-analyses concluded that the overall effect of imprisonment is null. Based on a much larger meta-analysis of 116 studies, the current analysis shows that custodial sanctions have no effect on reoffending or slightly increase it when compared with the effects of noncustodial sanctions such as probation. This finding is robust regardless of variations in methodological rigor, types of sanctions examined, and sociodemographic characteristics of samples. All sophisticated assessments of the research have independently reached the same conclusion. The null effect of custodial compared with noncustodial sanctions is considered a “criminological fact.” Incarceration cannot be justified on the grounds it affords public safety by decreasing recidivism. Prisons are unlikely to reduce reoffending unless they can be transformed into people-changing institutions on the basis of available evidence on what works organizationally to reform offenders.
I think that we need to use alternative punishments for minor offenses, like keeping shoplifters out of stores and fare-beaters out of transit systems. I think that facial-recognition technology could be good on that, though one has to be careful to avoid letting it be racially discriminatory.

We should also stop drug warring. One should recognize what heroic entrepreneurs drug dealers are and stop hating on them.

I was trying to phrase opposition to drug warring in terms that the Right would understand.

Why “Crime” Isn’t the Question and Police Aren’t the Answer ❧ Current Affairs
I would not go as far as he does. We need some police forces, even if cops aren't the best people for handling many sorts of misconduct.

The Yale Law Journal - Forum: The Punishment Bureaucracy: How to Think About “Criminal Justice Reform” - another self-interested lobby?

AK also mentioned Big Banks Charged Billions in Overdraft Fees During the Worst Months of the Pandemic - The American Prospect - "Recent financial disclosures show overdraft to be lucrative for commercial banks, and a burden on their most vulnerable customers."
I'm against the war on drugs. It just isn't working. However, to call drug dealers heroic is wrong. They spread misery wherever they go. Spend a few days in a poor area and you'll see what I mean. I used to volunteer at a foster care center at my reservation. The vast majority of poverty and abuse was caused by parents on drugs. Nothing is sadder than an able bodied parent hooked on drugs with little kids to feed and care for.

lpetrich

Contributor
I should have been clearer about why I called drug dealers "heroic". I was implying that those who like to do hero worship of entrepreneurs may want to think that drug dealers are also worthy of such hero worship.

Harry Bosch

Contributor
I should have been clearer about why I called drug dealers "heroic". I was implying that those who like to do hero worship of entrepreneurs may want to think that drug dealers are also worthy of such hero worship.
How so? Entrepreneurs offer a service/product that is needed by the community, follow the law, create jobs, support the local community, and pay taxes. Drug dealers steal from the poor and spread misery and dependence everywhere they go.

Loren Pechtel

Super Moderator
Staff member
Then describing ways that police departments undercount rapes. Not only in these four cities but in many others.

Note that the same forces would apply to other violent crimes short of murder (it's hard to undercount deaths.) Yet:

Article said:
In contrast to the widely held conventional wisdom, the rate of rape in America has not decreased over the last twenty years, as has been the case for other violent crimes. Instead, America is in a crisis of sexual violence that has gone undetected because police departments across the country systemically underreport rape.

Why does the incentive towards downgrading crimes apply only to rape??

And why do we see the same drop in rape elsewhere associated with widespread access to pornography? Do the police start undercounting rape as porn becomes available??

Derec

Contributor
What prosecutor refused to prosecute a train robbery?

Garcon. The lefty DA of LA.

The new Manhattan DA is about to do similar things.

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Derec

Contributor
I would also ask when train robbery became a new thing; Or whether the great train robberies of the past were perhaps due to time travelers inspired by today's laws and lawmakers.

So just because crime has always existed, we are to ignore the effect lack of prosecutions of many crimes has on emboldening criminals?

I do not know how it works in Australia, but here there is a trend of so-called "progressive" DAs declaring they would not prosecute certain crimes or will downgrade felonies (like robbery) to misdemeanors (like petit larceny). Garcon in LA, Boudin in SF and others have been at it for years, and now the new DA of Manhattan has released a similar pro-crime plan.

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
So just because crime has always existed, we are to ignore the effect lack of prosecutions of many crimes has on emboldening criminals?
Woah there!

You haven't established that any such thing is happening; You just boldly asserted it as a non-sequitur response to a reported crime.

There's no lack of prosecution of serious crimes (such as train robbery); So by what mechanism do you imagine that these train robbers were emboldened; And more importantly, what non-imaginary evidence do you have that this is the case?

I am not ignoring any effects; I am pointing out that you have totally failed to establish any cause and effect relationship between the events you reported and the actions you claimed to be their causes.

Politesse

Lux Aeterna
I would also ask when train robbery became a new thing; Or whether the great train robberies of the past were perhaps due to time travelers inspired by today's laws and lawmakers.

So just because crime has always existed, we are to ignore the effect lack of prosecutions of many crimes has on emboldening criminals?

I do not know how it works in Australia, but here there is a trend of so-called "progressive" DAs declaring they would not prosecute certain crimes or will downgrade felonies (like robbery) to misdemeanors (like petit larceny). Garcon in LA, Boudin in SF and others have been at it for years, and now the new DA of Manhattan has released a similar pro-crime plan.
When has your DA excused train robbery?

Politesse

Lux Aeterna
So if you are 16 or 17, you can get away with robbery, burglary and slew of other crimes.

You said that the DA refused to prosecute train robberies, not that there was a discretionary program to divert sentencing for minors who have committed less serious crimes.

Were the train robbers minors?

Derec

Contributor
You said that the DA refused to prosecute train robberies, not that there was a discretionary program to divert sentencing for minors who have committed less serious crimes.
Robbery, burglary and arson are not "less serious crimes".

Were the train robbers minors?
I am sure many of them are. As to the rest, the DAs policy shows that he is not taking these crimes seriously in general.

And diversionary programs means there is no prosecution. Result - more such crimes.
Also, just because there is no official program to not prosecute robberies, does not mean he doesn't downgrade them to thefts like the Manhattan DA wants to do. Again, the result is more robberies.

If Garcon is so willing to prosecute these robberies, where is the evidence of him actually prosecuting them? The proof of the pudding is in the eating. The proof of the DA is in prosecuting crimes and putting perps behind bars.

All we see is an increase in criminal activity and DAs like Garcon bullshitting about how we should not prosecute many crimes because of how they affect the perpetrators.

Derec

Contributor
You haven't established that any such thing is happening; You just boldly asserted it as a non-sequitur response to a reported crime.
You missed the part where the victims of the robbery implored Gascon to get off his high horse and do his job for a change.

There's no lack of prosecution of serious crimes
[citation needed]
Here is a counterexample:
Police commission: US Attorney held F-13 gang members responsible when Gascón wouldn't
Fox11 said:
"Our local District Attorney George Gascón should be prosecuting these murderers to the fullest extent of the law," said LAPPL President Craig Lally. "Gascón simply doesn’t have the courage or conviction to hold soulless murdering thugs accountable."

I am not ignoring any effects; I am pointing out that you have totally failed to establish any cause and effect relationship between the events you reported and the actions you claimed to be their causes.
We have a DA with an official policy of not prosecuting many crimes, including crimes such as robbery for perps under 18. What makes you think somebody with that attitude is eager to prosecute any robberies?

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fromderinside

Mazzie Daius
You haven't established that any such thing is happening; You just boldly asserted it as a non-sequitur response to a reported crime.
You missed the part where the victims of the robbery implored Gascon to get off his high horse and do his job for a change.

There's no lack of prosecution of serious crimes
[citation needed]
Here is a counterexample:
Police commission: US Attorney held F-13 gang members responsible when Gascón wouldn't
Fox11 said:
"Our local District Attorney George Gascón should be prosecuting these murderers to the fullest extent of the law," said LAPPL President Craig Lally. "Gascón simply doesn’t have the courage or conviction to hold soulless murdering thugs accountable."

I am not ignoring any effects; I am pointing out that you have totally failed to establish any cause and effect relationship between the events you reported and the actions you claimed to be their causes.
We have a DA with an official policy of not prosecuting many crimes, including crimes such as robbery for perps under 18. What makes you think somebody with that attitude is eager to prosecute any robberies?
Justification by generalizing is just about as good as going to church and lighting a candle.