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Breakdown In Civil Order

Emily Lake

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So you wish to see all homeless camps "removed".

I assume you mean dismantled at considerable taxpayer expense, and the inhabitants scattered to somewhere else in the city? That's not as novel - or effective - a plan as you might be thinking.

Liberals and conservatives, doesn't matter man. It's people with money, think you can just pay to erase things that make them feel uncomfortable. "Problems". Even if those problems are people. But people aren't easy to erase. When you try to erase people, the stench of violence lingers like cancer.

Remove anything blocking sidewalks and the like.
"Steal people's stuff and throw it away" is a really shit idea.

Made even worse by being targeted at people who have very little stuff to begin with.
Am I correct in assuming that you have freely opened up your driveway and your yard for homeless people to make use of?
 

ZiprHead

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The New York subway seems like a very dangerous place these days;

This is the moment a man launched a vile homophobic attack on an innocent New York City subway passenger. The attacker, who is still on the run, spat at his 22-year-old victim and ripped his hair out on the northbound A train at West 190 St just before 2.30pm on March 19.

Daily Mail

There's always someone willing to record these things but never anyone willing to lift a hand to help. New York just seems to be getting evermore dangerous.
The people there voted for this. We should be happy for them.

It would be funny if it weren't so tragic stupid.
FTFY
 

bilby

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So you wish to see all homeless camps "removed".

I assume you mean dismantled at considerable taxpayer expense, and the inhabitants scattered to somewhere else in the city? That's not as novel - or effective - a plan as you might be thinking.

Liberals and conservatives, doesn't matter man. It's people with money, think you can just pay to erase things that make them feel uncomfortable. "Problems". Even if those problems are people. But people aren't easy to erase. When you try to erase people, the stench of violence lingers like cancer.

Remove anything blocking sidewalks and the like.
"Steal people's stuff and throw it away" is a really shit idea.

Made even worse by being targeted at people who have very little stuff to begin with.
Am I correct in assuming that you have freely opened up your driveway and your yard for homeless people to make use of?
No, you are not correct. That would be a very stupid thing for you to assume. :rolleyes:

It certainly doesn't follow logically from my opposing the theft of the very few belongings poor people might have. I briefly entertained the idea that I might be amused to see you attempt to explain how it is a logical consequence of what I said; But of course, it's just a bog-standard application of a number of boring logical fallacies, so you needn't waste your time on such pointlessness.

IMG_6756.JPG
 

Hermit

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img_6756-jpg.37962

:hehe:

Bullseye
 

Emily Lake

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No, you are not correct. That would be a very stupid thing for you to assume. :rolleyes:

It certainly doesn't follow logically from my opposing the theft of the very few belongings poor people might have.
My point here is that you are a fantastic banner bearer for the rights of people with very little... as long as it is someone else who is bearing the cost of your support.

I get that poor and homeless people have few belongings. But they are camping on a sidewalk next to a busy street. They are in the way of pedestrians, putting those pedestrians at risk. The response taken was to close a lane of traffic and open that to pedestrians... which increases the density of traffic in the remaining lanes and increases the risk to pedestrians by putting them literally in the street without the clear and well-understood demarcation of a sidewalk.

Instead of recognizing the poor decision as a poor decision, you're busy attacking other people for not being supportive of the homeless camp that is directly intruding on other people's ability to safely navigate.

That's very easy to do, when YOU aren't being affected by it. YOU aren't being inconvenienced or put at risk by this, so YOU feel perfectly righteous to pass judgment on the topic.
 

Loren Pechtel

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So you wish to see all homeless camps "removed".

I assume you mean dismantled at considerable taxpayer expense, and the inhabitants scattered to somewhere else in the city? That's not as novel - or effective - a plan as you might be thinking.

Liberals and conservatives, doesn't matter man. It's people with money, think you can just pay to erase things that make them feel uncomfortable. "Problems". Even if those problems are people. But people aren't easy to erase. When you try to erase people, the stench of violence lingers like cancer.

Remove anything blocking sidewalks and the like.
"Steal people's stuff and throw it away" is a really shit idea.

Made even worse by being targeted at people who have very little stuff to begin with.

The thing is fines get ignored. Only things that will actually have consequences matter--and if you trash stuff blocking the sidewalk people won't block the sidewalk in the first place. It's not about throwing stuff away, it's about avoiding the situation in the first place.
 

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you're busy attacking other people for not being supportive of the homeless camp
What? It is very doubtful that Bilby attacked other people for not being supportive of the homeless camp. I'll go even further and make the daring supposition that not even Bilby himself is supportive of homeless camps.

There is an outside possibility that he objects to the "removal" of the few possessions of the homeless on the grounds that they block a section of a footpath. This is not quite the same as being supportive of the homeless camp.
 

bilby

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So you wish to see all homeless camps "removed".

I assume you mean dismantled at considerable taxpayer expense, and the inhabitants scattered to somewhere else in the city? That's not as novel - or effective - a plan as you might be thinking.

Liberals and conservatives, doesn't matter man. It's people with money, think you can just pay to erase things that make them feel uncomfortable. "Problems". Even if those problems are people. But people aren't easy to erase. When you try to erase people, the stench of violence lingers like cancer.

Remove anything blocking sidewalks and the like.
"Steal people's stuff and throw it away" is a really shit idea.

Made even worse by being targeted at people who have very little stuff to begin with.

The thing is fines get ignored.
No shit. People with no money don't pay fines, because they don't have any money.

Stealing their stuff and throwing it away doesn't work, either. The homeless people remain homeless after you throw their stuff away, they're just now even less likely to be able to do something about it (other than die).
Only things that will actually have consequences matter--and if you trash stuff blocking the sidewalk people won't block the sidewalk in the first place.
Nice hypothesis you have there.

It would be a shame if someone were to test it against reality.
It's not about throwing stuff away, it's about avoiding the situation in the first place.
It's about seeing homeless people as a problem for the rest of us, that needs to be "cleared away"; rather than seeing homeless people as people, who have problems you and I will need to assist with.

Shit, we don't even need to care about them as people; We should assist them on the purely selfish grounds that trying to clear them away as though they were mere litter doesn't work, and we still have the problem we started with if you try that "solution" - unless and until you up the cruelty factor to 'genocide'.
 

Loren Pechtel

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Only things that will actually have consequences matter--and if you trash stuff blocking the sidewalk people won't block the sidewalk in the first place.
Nice hypothesis you have there.

It would be a shame if someone were to test it against reality.
The homeless advocates won't allow that to happen.
 

Politesse

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Only things that will actually have consequences matter--and if you trash stuff blocking the sidewalk people won't block the sidewalk in the first place.
Nice hypothesis you have there.

It would be a shame if someone were to test it against reality.
The homeless advocates won't allow that to happen.
That is such fat fucking bullshit. Homeless people are routinely removed from encampments in every city in America. Parks are "cleansed", bathrooms are locked, benches are spiked, dumpsters are bleached, every single damn day in this country. Yes, in "liberal" cities, too. If oppression alone were sufficient to resole this crisis it would have been resolved a century ago. But it turns out that cruelty does not in fact solve social and medical crises.
 

bilby

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Only things that will actually have consequences matter--and if you trash stuff blocking the sidewalk people won't block the sidewalk in the first place.
Nice hypothesis you have there.

It would be a shame if someone were to test it against reality.
The homeless advocates won't allow that to happen.
It's been done many times in many places.

It has no long term impact, unsurprisingly, because it does exactly nothing to reduce the number of homeless people, who rather rudely fail to vanish once you steal their stuff.

At best it moves the problem around. Usually it doesn't even achieve that.

And there are very few homeless advocates; Homelessness makes advocacy very difficult, and nobody is advocating for more homelessness.

Or by "The homeless advocates won't allow that to happen", are you seeking to deride people who attempt to defend other people against your planned theft of their few meagre belongings? Because as far as I can see, defending the downtrodden is a good thing to do.
 

Loren Pechtel

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Only things that will actually have consequences matter--and if you trash stuff blocking the sidewalk people won't block the sidewalk in the first place.
Nice hypothesis you have there.

It would be a shame if someone were to test it against reality.
The homeless advocates won't allow that to happen.
That is such fat fucking bullshit. Homeless people are routinely removed from encampments in every city in America. Parks are "cleansed", bathrooms are locked, benches are spiked, dumpsters are bleached, every single damn day in this country. Yes, in "liberal" cities, too. If oppression alone were sufficient to resole this crisis it would have been resolved a century ago. But it turns out that cruelty does not in fact solve social and medical crises.

I'm not talking about clearing entire encampments, but rather selectively clearing things like sidewalks and simply trashing the stuff that's in the way after good notice is given. As it stands there's no meaningful consequence from putting your stuff on the sidewalk. As it stands we have a situation where bad action generally has no consequences and when there are consequences they are more related to group behavior than individual behavior. That's practically a formula for creating schizophrenia. We need to tie consequences far more to individual behavior but act more on it.
 

TSwizzle

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Sacramento mass shooter had a long and violent rap sheet;

Smiley Allen Martin, the second man arrested after Sunday’s mass shooting in Sacramento that killed six, has a criminal record stretching to 2013 and last year was the subject of a plea by Sacramento County District Attorney Anne Marie Schubert’s office that he not win early release from prison, where he was serving a 10-year sentence for domestic violence and assault with great bodily injury. Despite a two-page letter to the Board of Parole Hearings urging that Martin remain in custody, he won his release and was in Sacramento on Saturday night recording himself on a Facebook Live video brandishing a handgun hours before the shooting.
documents obtained by The Sacramento Bee show the DA’s office last year vehemently opposed Smiley Martin’s release from the 10-year prison sentence he received in Sacramento Superior Court on Jan. 12, 2018. “Inmate Martin’s criminal conduct is violent and lengthy,” Deputy District Attorney Danielle Abildgaard wrote in a two-page letter to the Board of Parole Hearings on April 29, 2021, opposing his release.

Sacramento Bee

And yet he was released early.
 

Politesse

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Only things that will actually have consequences matter--and if you trash stuff blocking the sidewalk people won't block the sidewalk in the first place.
Nice hypothesis you have there.

It would be a shame if someone were to test it against reality.
The homeless advocates won't allow that to happen.
That is such fat fucking bullshit. Homeless people are routinely removed from encampments in every city in America. Parks are "cleansed", bathrooms are locked, benches are spiked, dumpsters are bleached, every single damn day in this country. Yes, in "liberal" cities, too. If oppression alone were sufficient to resole this crisis it would have been resolved a century ago. But it turns out that cruelty does not in fact solve social and medical crises.

I'm not talking about clearing entire encampments, but rather selectively clearing things like sidewalks and simply trashing the stuff that's in the way after good notice is given. As it stands there's no meaningful consequence from putting your stuff on the sidewalk. As it stands we have a situation where bad action generally has no consequences and when there are consequences they are more related to group behavior than individual behavior. That's practically a formula for creating schizophrenia. We need to tie consequences far more to individual behavior but act more on it.
Again, complete bullshit. Homeless people have their shit stolen by the state all the time. If oppression worked, it would have worked already.

Also, no, mental health conditions are not created by allowing people to own things.
 

Loren Pechtel

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I'm not talking about clearing entire encampments, but rather selectively clearing things like sidewalks and simply trashing the stuff that's in the way after good notice is given. As it stands there's no meaningful consequence from putting your stuff on the sidewalk. As it stands we have a situation where bad action generally has no consequences and when there are consequences they are more related to group behavior than individual behavior. That's practically a formula for creating schizophrenia. We need to tie consequences far more to individual behavior but act more on it.
Again, complete bullshit. Homeless people have their shit stolen by the state all the time. If oppression worked, it would have worked already.

I'm not talking about oppression. I'm talking about separating out minor bad behavior (homeless encampment) from bigger bad behavior (homeless encampment blocking the path.)

Also, no, mental health conditions are not created by allowing people to own things.

What I'm talking about as a recipe for schizophrenia is something with an appreciable reward but occasional, random quite bad outcomes.
 

Politesse

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I'm not talking about clearing entire encampments, but rather selectively clearing things like sidewalks and simply trashing the stuff that's in the way after good notice is given. As it stands there's no meaningful consequence from putting your stuff on the sidewalk. As it stands we have a situation where bad action generally has no consequences and when there are consequences they are more related to group behavior than individual behavior. That's practically a formula for creating schizophrenia. We need to tie consequences far more to individual behavior but act more on it.
Again, complete bullshit. Homeless people have their shit stolen by the state all the time. If oppression worked, it would have worked already.

I'm not talking about oppression. I'm talking about separating out minor bad behavior (homeless encampment) from bigger bad behavior (homeless encampment blocking the path.)
Feel free to present your evidence that this has worked, in cities where homeless people are not afforded rights.

Also, no, mental health conditions are not created by allowing people to own things.

What I'm talking about as a recipe for schizophrenia is something with an appreciable reward but occasional, random quite bad outcomes.
No, that has nothing to do with schizophrenia. And spreading prejudicial myths about the causes of mental disorders is in and of itself a socially irresponsible act worse than the ones you're decrying. No one is hurt by needing to step around something. People are routinely hurt by people who believe in pseudoscience about mental health.
 

TSwizzle

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NY, shoplifter is affronted that security guard stopped her taking stuff from the store without paying (aka shoplifting)

A brazen Manhattan shoplifter has claimed a security guard at a Duane Reade assaulted her when he stopped her from walking out of the store with fabric softener - as she details her stealing exploits across the city. The shoplifter, identifying herself as 'Jackie', gave an interview outside the store on 14th Street in Union Square on Wednesday after her clash with security in the store, claiming they dragged her into a back room and issued her with a notice banning her from all the chain's stores across the state. Jackie spoke openly about her attempts to steal the fabric softener to do her laundry and claims when the security guard stopped her at the door, she complied and handed over the merchandise before trying to leave the store.

Daily Mail

The entitlement displayed is astounding but I guess it shouldn't come as a surprise.
 

ZiprHead

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Yeah, no one's ever been robbed on an NYC subway before.
 

Loren Pechtel

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bilby

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Feel free to present your evidence that this has worked, in cities where homeless people are not afforded rights.
What rights are you talking about here?
Right to personal property.
Sorry, but when you leave your personal property lying around in public it's liable to be disposed of as trash.
What, even when you are right there trying to defend it from the people who are taking it away?
 

Emily Lake

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Republicans blame Democrats for crime — but new data shows higher murder rates in red states | Salon.com - "Yes, crime is up. But eight of the 10 states with the highest murder rates in 2020 voted for Donald Trump"
Republicans have repeatedly blamed Democratic policies in big cities for a rise in murder rates during the pandemic. In fact, Republican states are reporting much higher homicide rates and some of the highest murder rates are in cities led by Republican mayors, according to data compiled by the centrist think tank Third Way.
The Red State Murder Problem – Third Way
with summary
  • The rate of murders in the US has gone up at an alarming rate. But, despite a media narrative to the contrary, this is a problem that afflicts Republican-run cities and states as much or more than the Democratic bastions.
  • In 2020, per capita murder rates were 40% higher in states won by Donald Trump than those won by Joe Biden.
  • 8 of the 10 states with the highest murder rates in 2020 voted for the Republican presidential nominee in every election this century.
That paper's assertions are broadly correct:
Back to Salon.
Republicans from former President Donald Trump to congressional lawmakers to Fox News talking heads have repeatedly pointed to Democrats' supposed "soft-on-crime" approach, bail reform laws, and "defund the police" rhetoric from left-wing activists for fueling a surge in violent crime. But the Third Way report shows that "murder rates are far higher in Trump-voting red states" and some of the highest murder rates are in cities led by Republicans.

"Republicans seem to do a much better job of talking about stopping crime than stopping crime," Jim Kessler, one of the report's authors, told Axios.
Dem group points to "Red State Murder Problem" - Axios

In all, eight of the 10 states with the highest per-capita murder rates in the country voted for Trump in 2020. None of those eight states have been carried by a Democrat since 1996. Mississippi had by far the highest murder rate at 20.5 murders per 100,000 residents, followed by Louisiana at 15.79. Alabama, Kentucky and Missouri all had murder rates higher than 14 per 100,000 compared to a national average of 6.5. The only states that voted for Biden to appear in the top 10 are Georgia — a longtime Republican stronghold that went blue by a tiny margin in 2020 — and New Mexico.

Large blue states that have attracted criticism from Republicans had murder rates significantly below the national average. New York's rate was 4.11 murders per 100,000 residents and California's was 5.59. According to the study, Mississippi's murder rate was 400% higher than New York's and 250% higher than California's.
House Speaker Nancy Pelosi represents most of San Francisco, and that city's 2019 murder rate was 6.35 per 100 thousand people. By comparison, House Republican Leader Kevin McCarthy's city, Bakersfield, has a Republican mayor and a large fraction of its citizens voted for Donald Trump. Its murder rate is 10.76: 73% more. Jacksonville FL is another Republican-run city, and its murder rate is 12.18: 92% more. More Republican-run cities: Fresno CA 10.64: 67%, Oklahoma City 12.49: 97%, Lexington KY: 9.00: 41%, By comparison, New York City 3.39: -47% (rate ~1/2 SF's), Los Angeles: 7.01: 10%.
 

lpetrich

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Yes, murders have increased, by overall 30% in 2020. But 32.2% in pro-Trump states and 30.8% in pro-Biden ones. Three of the five states with the highest increases were pro-Trump states: WY 91.7%, SD 69%, NE 59%, all mostly-rural and none with very big cities. Cheyenne WY 65 K, Sioux Falls SD 193 / 277 K, Omaha NE 486 / 968 K. The two pro-Biden states: WI 63.2% MN 58.1%. Milwaukee WI 577 / 1,575 K, Minneapolis MN 430 / 3,690 K. Numbers are (city proper) / (metro area)

Quoting Salon again,
Only one of the 10 states with the highest increases was among the top 20 states in population density — and that was Delaware, with a total population of less than 1 million. California's murder rate increased by 31%, about the national average, while New York had a higher-than-average increase of 45.8%."

A 2021 analysis previously found that the murder rate increase in Republican-led cities was virtually identical to that in Democratic-led cities. Despite Republican claims, no city in the nation has "defunded" the police and hardly any have cut police budgets.

This is more than a matter of Republican talking points or Fox News commentary. Mainstream news outlets like CNN and The New York Times have similarly pumped out countless headlines warning of rising murder rates in big cities.
The Third Way report concluded
A more accurate conclusion from the data is that Republicans do a far better job blaming others for high murder rates than actually reducing high murder rates.
 
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