# Breakdown In Civil Order

##### Loony Running The Asylum
Staff member
A
But I'll tell you a secret, if you change the websites you visit, then it's just you in your community where nothing ever happens.

Sorry to say but none of that changes with the crap that is allowed to go on in Los Angeles. The "homeless" encampments and the crime and filth that emanates from these encampments are tolerated by city council. I can't go out for a walk round the block without some out their head junkie screaming at me from across the street. Bus stops in the area can't be used because some junkie has made it their home. Businesses lose out because customers are afraid of the junkies camped out on the sidewalk and avoid the area. Echo park was a no go area up until recently thanks to the homeless encampment that was allowed to flourish. A homeless man stabbed a young girl to death in a furniture which which is in a reasonably nice area. Large parts of Los Angeles is a shithole right now
What is your solution to the problem?

#### TSwizzle

##### Let's Go Brandon!
Mike Bonin is bonkers, hopefully he will get recalled;

Mike Bonin said:
Councilmember Mike Bonin was one of two members of the Los Angeles City Council to vote against enforcing anti-camping laws this week, claiming that these rules “make us less safe and make homelessness worse. Many people — including my political opponents — are demanding I support and implement laws that criminalize sitting and lying down in ever larger portions of our city. But these laws take us backwards, make us less safe, and make homelessness worse. Unhoused people are disproportionately the victims’ of crime — and no official has the power (or desire) to prevent police from investigating criminal acts. But statutes like 41.18 criminalize not so much an act as the very state’ of being unhoused,”
LA News

There are reports of activists bribing homeless to stay put rather than go in to shelters.

##### Loony Running The Asylum
Staff member
Getting back to the Portland unrest that was in the early days of this thread...

Tusitala "Tiny" Toese, a member of the far-right group Proud Boys, has been arrested on a Multnomah County warrant for his actions during an August 22, 2021 protest in Portland, according to sources familiar with the case. Toese is facing a total of eleven criminal charges.

Toese was one of many members of the Proud Boys and other far-right organizations who showed up in Northeast Portland on Sunday, August 22 with paintball guns and bear mace, looking for a confrontation with antifascist Portlanders. The so-called "Summer of Love" rally marked the one-year anniversary of a similar right-wing demonstration in downtown Portland, which was defined by its lack of police response. The 2021 event, held in an abandoned Kmart parking lot in the Parkrose neighborhood, was no different. Right-wing activists violently clashed with antifascists that afternoon in a haze of smoke bombs and white paint with no police intervention. Portland Police Chief Chuck Lovell said that officers were monitoring the situation from afar and would make arrests at a later date.

Mayor Ted Wheeler admitted that this hands-off response was inappropriate a month later.

Toese was captured on film during the event shooting a paintball gun at antifascist protesters, attacking an individual in a parked truck, and helping a group of protesters tip over an empty van parked in the lot.

He was also filmed after the clash condemning the police for not responding to the protest to protect him and others.

"I know days from now, I might be arrested," he said at the time. "I'm sick and tired, and if we have to die to defend ourselves, our families, and our fucking freedom in America, we're gonna do it."

Toese was previously arrested and jailed in 2020 for assaulting an antifascist bystander two years prior. He was released in December 2020.

Toese has been charged with three counts of assault in the second degree, two counts of assault in the third degree, two counts of unlawful use of a weapon, two counts of riot, and two counts of criminal mischief.

#### bilby

##### Fair dinkum thinkum
A
But I'll tell you a secret, if you change the websites you visit, then it's just you in your community where nothing ever happens.

Sorry to say but none of that changes with the crap that is allowed to go on in Los Angeles. The "homeless" encampments and the crime and filth that emanates from these encampments are tolerated by city council. I can't go out for a walk round the block without some out their head junkie screaming at me from across the street. Bus stops in the area can't be used because some junkie has made it their home. Businesses lose out because customers are afraid of the junkies camped out on the sidewalk and avoid the area. Echo park was a no go area up until recently thanks to the homeless encampment that was allowed to flourish. A homeless man stabbed a young girl to death in a furniture which which is in a reasonably nice area. Large parts of Los Angeles is a shithole right now
That's an inevitable consequence of massive wealth disparity.

The solutions are either the traditional (ie medieval) option of employing vast numbers of hired thugs to defend the wealth of the aristocracy from the masses of the poor, and building high security compounds in which the lords and ladies can feel secure; Or the modern (ie mid-20th century) option of providing employment opportunities and a strong safety net to ensure that grinding poverty remains rare.

Your problem is that you want to have your brute squad and your castle, but you can't afford them. So you expect the taxpayer to provide them for you.

Dressing up greed for public funds to support US, but not THEM, as a call for 'law and order' has been popular with the not-quite-rich for thousands of years. But it remains despicable.

#### thebeave

##### Veteran Member
Another death where the perp is probably a drugged up transient;

A 24-year-old woman was stabbed to death Thursday afternoon while working at a Hancock Park furniture store, and Los Angeles police said the killer remains at large. Brianna Kupfer was working alone inside the Croft House furniture store in the 300 block of North La Brea Avenue when a man entered the store, attacked her and stabbed her to death, said Det. Herman Frettlohr of the Los Angeles Police Department.

LA Times

Way to go Newsom and Garcetti !
Police have identified the suspect in this killing.

LAPD identifies suspect in stabbing of UCLA grad student Brianna Kupfer

Los Angeles police identified the man they say stabbed UCLA student Brianna Kupfer to death inside a high-end furniture store where she worked, hours after offering a record-breaking $250,000 reward. Shawn Laval Smith, 31 — who was released last year on$1,000 bail in a misdemeanor case in LA — was considered armed and dangerous and “highly likely to be using public transportation,” the Los Angeles Police Department announced Tuesday.

He was in October 2020 released on $1,000 bail after a misdemeanor arrest in California that prosecutors chose not to press charges on, the Covina Police Department said. He also appears to be free on a$50,000 bond in South Carolina in relation to a November 2019 arrest on suspicion of firing a weapon into an occupied vehicle, court records show.

Kupfer’s father, Todd Kupfer, told The Post he “heard his rap sheet is much worse” — insisting police told him that the suspect in his daughter’s slaying should have been behind bars.

#### TV and credit cards

##### Contributor
A
But I'll tell you a secret, if you change the websites you visit, then it's just you in your community where nothing ever happens.

Sorry to say but none of that changes with the crap that is allowed to go on in Los Angeles. The "homeless" encampments and the crime and filth that emanates from these encampments are tolerated by city council. I can't go out for a walk round the block without some out their head junkie screaming at me from across the street. Bus stops in the area can't be used because some junkie has made it their home. Businesses lose out because customers are afraid of the junkies camped out on the sidewalk and avoid the area. Echo park was a no go area up until recently thanks to the homeless encampment that was allowed to flourish. A homeless man stabbed a young girl to death in a furniture which which is in a reasonably nice area. Large parts of Los Angeles is a shithole right now
What is your solution to the problem?
Homes. Mental health services. Drug addiction services. Just what the state is doing.

So you’ve got you anti-camping ordinance. The answer without a solution. I guess if you’re homeless, you just walk around indefinitely.

##### Loony Running The Asylum
Staff member
A
But I'll tell you a secret, if you change the websites you visit, then it's just you in your community where nothing ever happens.

Sorry to say but none of that changes with the crap that is allowed to go on in Los Angeles. The "homeless" encampments and the crime and filth that emanates from these encampments are tolerated by city council. I can't go out for a walk round the block without some out their head junkie screaming at me from across the street. Bus stops in the area can't be used because some junkie has made it their home. Businesses lose out because customers are afraid of the junkies camped out on the sidewalk and avoid the area. Echo park was a no go area up until recently thanks to the homeless encampment that was allowed to flourish. A homeless man stabbed a young girl to death in a furniture which which is in a reasonably nice area. Large parts of Los Angeles is a shithole right now
What is your solution to the problem?
Homes. Mental health services. Drug addiction services. Just what the state is doing.

So you’ve got you anti-camping ordinance. The answer without a solution. I guess if you’re homeless, you just walk around indefinitely.
Note who didn't answer the question.

#### laughing dog

##### Contributor
Really is true. The Left just can’t live without Trump.

Amen to that! If he did not exist, they'd have to invent him.
Riight, there was no "Left" before Trump.

#### Derec

##### Contributor
You should feel safe. You don't because every terrible incident that occurs in the US is instantly available for all to read. Crime is down. It has been going down since the early 1990s.
Just because things are not as bad as they were in the 70s and 80s does not mean that idiotic polices by fauxgressive prosecutors like Boudin, Garçon and Bragg are at all conducive to maintaining civil order.
Sure, geeks don't have to pack .38s on NYC subways to shoot would be robbers, but under Bragg's pro-crime leadership we may be heading back that way.

Is it because of legalized abortion or unleaded gas? No one knows for sure.
Probably combination of those and more tough on crime policies where armed robbers are actually charged with armed robbery and not petit larceny.

Everyone thinks crime is up in the United States.
Over the last few years it is. Particularly homicides.

People who suffer more crime are young and poor.

Which is why policies by these supposedly progressive prosecutors are anything but.

I know folks in Indiana worry to death about illegals coming across in Texas and folks in Georgia are just worried sick about crime in Los Angeles. But I'll tell you a secret, if you change the websites you visit, then it's just you in your community where nothing ever happens.
But illegals who come through Texas end up everywhere, including Indiana.
And it is not true nothing ever happens in Georgia. We have shootings here. But for all their faults, our DAs do not categorically refuse to charge 17 year old killers and rapists as adults for example. They don't downgrade robberies to petty thefts either.

#### Derec

##### Contributor
Getting back to the Portland unrest that was in the early days of this thread...

That's the one kind of crime the Antifa DA of Multnomah County is eager to prosecute. Crimes committed by his Antifa buddies and their #BLM confederates not so much.
It is pretty safe to riot and even assault police officers in Portland. As long as you are a leftist.

#### Derec

##### Contributor
That's an inevitable consequence of massive wealth disparity.
That's bullshit. It's a consequence of people wanting things like latest iPhone or Yeezys without having to work for them.

The solutions are either the traditional (ie medieval) option of employing vast numbers of hired thugs to defend the wealth of the aristocracy from the masses of the poor,
Most victims of the crime are not the "aristocracy", but lower and middle class folk.
And the "masses of the poor"? Really? The poor get subsidized a lot in the US. There are things like EITC and child tax credit that can result in a negative effective tax rate. Then there is SNAP, rental assistance, etc. Nobody has to steal and rob just to eat. If you rob a store or jack a car, it is to fulfill your wants, not needs, without working.
Like the cousin of a burglar who got shot by his victim asked: "how he gonna get his money"? I dunno. Why don't you get a job?
The teenage perp did not even look poor in his photos - newish clothes, lots of jewelry including grills on his teeth.

and building high security compounds in which the lords and ladies can feel secure; Or the modern (ie mid-20th century) option of providing employment opportunities and a strong safety net to ensure that grinding poverty remains rare.
There is a safety net. Why do some people on here pretend contemporary US is something out of Grapes of Wrath or Les Misérables? People don't steal loaves of bread. They rob $2k worth of cold medicine to turn into$40k worth of meth.

Your problem is that you want to have your brute squad and your castle, but you can't afford them. So you expect the taxpayer to provide them for you.
Maintaining public safety and arresting and prosecuting criminals is one of the core raisons d'être of government. Without it, the social contact collapses and with it the legitimacy of the government.
So yes, this is one of the things that taxpayers absolutely need to fund. Unlike "free" childcare or "civilian climate corps" or diversity officers at public universities which are all way down the priority list.

Dressing up greed for public funds to support US, but not THEM, as a call for 'law and order' has been popular with the not-quite-rich for thousands of years. But it remains despicable.
People who are in the so-called working class often get victimized by criminals, especially violent criminals. These pro-crime policies are not popular with common people nearly as much as they are with the left-wing elites in their ivory towers. Or Congress for that matter where people like Cory Bush preach defunding police for the common folk while she hires private security for herself.

#### laughing dog

##### Contributor
Riight, there was no "Left" before Trump.
Who said there wasn't?
The people in the exchange of
"The Left just can’t live without Trump." followed by "Amen to that! If he did not exist, they'd have to invent him. "

#### bilby

##### Fair dinkum thinkum
That's an inevitable consequence of massive wealth disparity.
That's bullshit. It's a consequence of people wanting things like latest iPhone or Yeezys without having to work for them.

The solutions are either the traditional (ie medieval) option of employing vast numbers of hired thugs to defend the wealth of the aristocracy from the masses of the poor,
Most victims of the crime are not the "aristocracy", but lower and middle class folk.
And the "masses of the poor"? Really? The poor get subsidized a lot in the US. There are things like EITC and child tax credit that can result in a negative effective tax rate. Then there is SNAP, rental assistance, etc. Nobody has to steal and rob just to eat. If you rob a store or jack a car, it is to fulfill your wants, not needs, without working.
Like the cousin of a burglar who got shot by his victim asked: "how he gonna get his money"? I dunno. Why don't you get a job?
The teenage perp did not even look poor in his photos - newish clothes, lots of jewelry including grills on his teeth.

and building high security compounds in which the lords and ladies can feel secure; Or the modern (ie mid-20th century) option of providing employment opportunities and a strong safety net to ensure that grinding poverty remains rare.
There is a safety net. Why do some people on here pretend contemporary US is something out of Grapes of Wrath or Les Misérables? People don't steal loaves of bread. They rob $2k worth of cold medicine to turn into$40k worth of meth.

Your problem is that you want to have your brute squad and your castle, but you can't afford them. So you expect the taxpayer to provide them for you.
Maintaining public safety and arresting and prosecuting criminals is one of the core raisons d'être of government. Without it, the social contact collapses and with it the legitimacy of the government.
So yes, this is one of the things that taxpayers absolutely need to fund. Unlike "free" childcare or "civilian climate corps" or diversity officers at public universities which are all way down the priority list.

Dressing up greed for public funds to support US, but not THEM, as a call for 'law and order' has been popular with the not-quite-rich for thousands of years. But it remains despicable.
People who are in the so-called working class often get victimized by criminals, especially violent criminals. These pro-crime policies are not popular with common people nearly as much as they are with the left-wing elites in their ivory towers. Or Congress for that matter where people like Cory Bush preach defunding police for the common folk while she hires private security for herself.
Are you aware that your entire long-winded response basically just repeats my points, but spun to imply that all the problems are somehow the fault of people that are not you?

The US 'safety net' is a fucking joke. Because that's how YOU want it to be. It's your fault that your country is going to shit, and you are calling for more of the same failed responses that got you there to begin with.

The elites in their ivory towers are playing you like a fiddle; And the fact that you honestly appear to think that it's ONLY those "elites" who claim to be 'left-wing' that are a problem is a perfect illustration of this.

The aristocrats are quite happy to see the middle classes battling the poor - it means both are too busy to start thinking about guillotines.

As long as they have you fooled into thinking that your latest iPhone and Yeezys (whatever the fuck Yeezys are) separates wealthy from poor, and fighting to ensure that the undeserving don't get these pathetic symbols of trivial wealth, you won't notice that they're siphoning off private jet and super-yacht money from you all.

#### Derec

##### Contributor
The people in the exchange of
"The Left just can’t live without Trump." followed by "Amen to that! If he did not exist, they'd have to invent him. "
None of which implies that there was no Left before Trump unless you read it in such a wooden literal sense that I am starting to seriously think you are some artificial intelligence experiment Jay and Zipr are running.
Good job guys. You had me going for a while here!

##### Loony Running The Asylum
Staff member
The people in the exchange of
"The Left just can’t live without Trump." followed by "Amen to that! If he did not exist, they'd have to invent him. "
None of which implies that there was no Left before Trump unless you read it in such a wooden literal sense that I am starting to seriously think you are some artificial intelligence experiment Jay and Zipr are running.
Good job guys. You had me going for a while here!
Damn, you caught us.

#### Derec

##### Contributor
Are you aware that your entire long-winded response basically just repeats my points, but spun to imply that all the problems are somehow the fault of people that are not you?
Less long winded than yours, and no, I am not aware of such a ridiculous proposition.

The US 'safety net' is a fucking joke. Because that's how YOU want it to be.
In terms of total social safety expenditures, it is certainly no joke. When you add up all programs, it adds up to a pretty penny, especially lately.
Now, I think the way these programs are structured leaves a lot to be desired. So it is definitely not how I want it to be.

Mine? I am not in Congress. I am not a DA. I am not even a mayor. How is it my fault?
and you are calling for more of the same failed responses that got you there to begin with.

I disagree that the responses have been a failure. I think the response to high crime rates of the 70s and 80s (including the much maligned Crime Bill) was in part responsible for why the crime rates came down.
I do think however that there are too many people locked up for things that should not be against the law in the first place or should be a fine at the most. But stealing and robbing, as well as assaults and the like should not be among them.
The problem with how crime is dealt with in US is one of overcorrections. The pendulum is swinging wider back and forth than the one in the Panthéon in Paris. Currently we are in the phase of an overcorrection toward being too soft on crime.

What needs to happen is to be smart on crime. It's a good idea to fully legalize weed. And even for drugs that we do not want to actually legalize, it makes no sense to lock up end users. Sex work should also be fully legalized.

However, that does not mean we should be soft on theft, robbery, assaults or even murders as these fake progressive DAs are doing.

The elites in their ivory towers are playing you like a fiddle;
They are not.
And the fact that you honestly appear to think that it's ONLY those "elites" who claim to be 'left-wing' that are a problem is a perfect illustration of this.
The reference to left wing elites like Cory Bush was specific to their demand to defund police . There are different problems with right wing elites of course.

The aristocrats are quite happy to see the middle classes battling the poor - it means both are too busy to start thinking about guillotines.
Guillotines is quite a bit overdramatic. And we should not equate the poor with the criminal element. In fact, the poor are often the victims of the criminals that these fauxgressives are coddling.

As long as they have you fooled into thinking that your latest iPhone and Yeezys (whatever the fuck Yeezys are) separates wealthy from poor,
Who claimed that they are "what separates wealthy from poor"? They were examples of the type of material goods the street level criminals holding up stores or robbing trains are interested in. And btw, Yeezy's are fugly overpriced sneakers associated with Kanye West. Who is a US rapper.

and fighting to ensure that the undeserving don't get these pathetic symbols of trivial wealth,
I have no problem people spending their own money how they see fit. I have a problem with people spending money on such things and then complain that they have no money for food or rent and seek public assistance. And even more I have a problem with people wanting these things and instead of working for them decide that holding up a store or cutting a catalytic converter from somebody's car is a good way to get it. You seem to have no problem with them, just with so-called "wealth inequality".
So what is your solution? Up welfare so that everybody can afford luxury items without having to work? So why should people work then? We saw a preview of what those policies would result in when the overly generous COVID payments resulted in people quitting their jobs en masse.

you won't notice that they're siphoning off private jet and super-yacht money from you all.
There is a difference between earning money and stealing it. If you earned it, I see no problem with you buying a jet. If you stole it, I have a problem with you even buying a bike with the proceeds.

The only cartoonish one is you.

#### Loren Pechtel

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
You should feel safe. You don't because every terrible incident that occurs in the US is instantly available for all to read. Crime is down. It has been going down since the early 1990s. Is it because of legalized abortion or unleaded gas? No one knows for sure. But it is down. Way down over the last thirty years. It is no more prevalent in the US than other wealthy nations until... you get... to the part... about... guns. Yep. Guns. That's where we outshine all others. And even these are not due to crimes with guns. The guns come in during social exchanges, arguments, etc. So we just end up with more people in the morgue. By gun toting Prius owners and the like.

Most of the people who end up dead by guns are criminals themselves. And note that you say "no more prevalent" that's actually an understatement--it tends to be lower here, not merely equal.

Everyone thinks crime is up in the United States. Well, Republicans do anyways. But you ask about their own personal experiences and it's another story. Me thinks crime is up on Fox News and similar internet sites. But that's just a theory. People who suffer more crime are young and poor. There is no difference by race or gender (whatever that means). A little gender humor.

Agreed--it's Faux Noise that keeps beating the crime drum. The average person is very unlikely to be in a position where defending themselves with a gun is the best course of action. Note, however, that not all people are average.

#### Loren Pechtel

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
Homes. Mental health services. Drug addiction services. Just what the state is doing.

So you’ve got you anti-camping ordinance. The answer without a solution. I guess if you’re homeless, you just walk around indefinitely.

Doesn't work.

Homes are a good solution for the economic homeless. They don't work on the mentally ill. Nor do mental health services--you have to want help for the doctors to have any ability to actually help you and in many cases there aren't good solutions.