...But that's the Old Testament!

[Underseer]

Matt Dillahunty has a video series on debating apologists. In this one, he addresses the "...but that's the Old Testament" excuse.

 

[Bronzeage]

When someone uses the "but that's the Old Testament" ploy, it's a sure sign you are dealing with someone who has a very weak theological education.

 

[Bacillus anthracis]

It's done away with pretty easily.

Does God change?
Was he wrong when he said A, B, C, through Z in the OT?
So does that take some people out of hell and put them in heaven and vice versa?
Didn't Jesus say that he came to uphold the laws of the OT?
So you don't like the OT god but you love his son--who's actually his dad?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

It's done away with pretty easily.

Does God change?
Was he wrong when he said A, B, C, through Z in the OT?
So does that take some people out of hell and put them in heaven and vice versa?
Didn't Jesus say that he came to uphold the laws of the OT?
So you don't like the OT god but you love his son--who's actually his dad?

It is odd, the whole idea of worshiping a Jewish man by disavowing a good portion the Book he thought was holy. Instead, they worship books that weren't authored by him or remotely close to his lifetime.

In the early days, I wonder if the Jewish viewed Christianity like Christianity views Mormonism these days.

 

[Juma]

Who are you to define another persons religion? I am definitely no fan of any religion. But really: there is no point in criticise someone for not interpreting his own religion correctly....

 

[Draconis]

Yes, I've often wondered why there are two Testaments, saying contradictory things.

Leaving aside the question as to why God got it wrong, why aren't Bibles printed with the superseded passages blanked out/deleted? Or notes saying "go to page... for the new version of whatever". Instead it is all written down without regard to the "update".

 

[Bronzeage]

Yes, I've often wondered why there are two Testaments, saying contradictory things.

Leaving aside the question as to why God got it wrong, why aren't Bibles printed with the superseded passages blanked out/deleted? Or notes saying "go to page... for the new version of whatever". Instead it is all written down without regard to the "update".

The main reason is, there has never been a central Bible clearing house, where that sort of thing could be handled. Every sect chooses the sources and the language for their Scripture. There is no attempt at uniformity. The Judeo-Christian-Islamic scriptures all come out of the same tradition, but there is little uniformity.

 

[credoconsolans]

It's done away with pretty easily.

Does God change?
Was he wrong when he said A, B, C, through Z in the OT?
So does that take some people out of hell and put them in heaven and vice versa?
Didn't Jesus say that he came to uphold the laws of the OT?
So you don't like the OT god but you love his son--who's actually his dad?

It is odd, the whole idea of worshiping a Jewish man by disavowing a good portion the Book he thought was holy. Instead, they worship books that weren't authored by him or remotely close to his lifetime.

In the early days, I wonder if the Jewish viewed Christianity like Christianity views Mormonism these days.

The religious Jews still do. How would you feel if a new cult got very respectful, popular and powerful after hijacking your religious beliefs, your religious history, your messiah, then condescended that you were doing it wrong, your ideas about your messiah were wrong and now your god has abandoned you as a people because you missed out on the new and improved messiah?

Then used it to persecute you?

The self-righteous arrogance of that attitude beggars belief.

 

[Keith&Co.]

The religious Jews still do. How would you feel if a new cult got very respectful, popular and powerful after hijacking your religious beliefs, your religious history, your messiah, then condescended that you were doing it wrong, your ideas about your messiah were wrong and now your god has abandoned you as a people because you missed out on the new and improved messiah?

Then used it to persecute you?

The self-righteous arrogance of that attitude beggars belief.

Yeah, like the GOP and Romneycare?

 

[Keith&Co.]

Who are you to define another persons religion? I am definitely no fan of any religion. But really: there is no point in criticise someone for not interpreting his own religion correctly....

Is it criticizing his religion or criticizing his rationalization?

I mean, frankly, I don't care if a guy wants to believe that my marriage is an offense against a god I don't believe in. It's meaningless to me. But a group of such believers may want to write legislation based on quotes from the Old Testament that they say makes it a bad thing. I'd want to know why they're not also legislating stoning someone for eating a bacon cheeseburger.
It's from the same The Books. the same god's commandments. How do they rationalize the picking and choosing of their complaints? Until that issue is resolved, I don't think they should be putting pen to paper for making changes in my life. Or anyone else's.

 

[Underseer]

It's done away with pretty easily.

Does God change?
Was he wrong when he said A, B, C, through Z in the OT?
So does that take some people out of hell and put them in heaven and vice versa?
Didn't Jesus say that he came to uphold the laws of the OT?
So you don't like the OT god but you love his son--who's actually his dad?

Someone who agrees with dispensationalism could easily worm their way around that.

 

[couch_sloth]

It's done away with pretty easily.

Does God change?
Was he wrong when he said A, B, C, through Z in the OT?
So does that take some people out of hell and put them in heaven and vice versa?
Didn't Jesus say that he came to uphold the laws of the OT?
So you don't like the OT god but you love his son--who's actually his dad?

The argument I've heard from some Christians is that: God didn't change. Mankind changed. i.e. Back in the time of the OT we humans were too psychologically & philosophically 'unsophisticated' to receive God's true message... So God had to tell us what to do in a rather crude fashion, in ways we should have been able to follow back then.
Personally, I think all the Jesus stuff is just a bunch of clap-trap given to us by God because we are still to ignorant to understand His true message. God probably has to wait until cybernetic driven evolution has kicked in for us to be smart enough to really understand!

 

[Bacillus anthracis]

It's done away with pretty easily.

Does God change?
Was he wrong when he said A, B, C, through Z in the OT?
So does that take some people out of hell and put them in heaven and vice versa?
Didn't Jesus say that he came to uphold the laws of the OT?
So you don't like the OT god but you love his son--who's actually his dad?

The argument I've heard from some Christians is that: God didn't change. Mankind changed. i.e. Back in the time of the OT we humans were too psychologically & philosophically 'unsophisticated' to receive God's true message... So God had to tell us what to do in a rather crude fashion, in ways we should have been able to follow back then.
Personally, I think all the Jesus stuff is just a bunch of clap-trap given to us by God because we are still to ignorant to understand His true message. God probably has to wait until cybernetic driven evolution has kicked in for us to be smart enough to really understand!

If God is so all-Everything, then surely he could have designed us well enough to understand him. Or it should be no problem for It to communicate with us.

And if mankind changed... but it didn't. We were still killing, fighting, stealing, and fucking back then. One of the good things about the Bible is that it gives great insight into the human condition of those times. And the thing about that is that we're exactly the same today. We still have the same foibles, the same stupid shit, the same mistakes. We're just less ignorant about the natural world.

But it is disturbing to think that since we're too stupid to understand God, that the vast, vast majority of us will burn forever until science discovers a way to make us understand God. But then, if we can figure out a way to talk to God, but he can't figure out a way to talk to us, who's smarter?

 

[Underseer]

It's done away with pretty easily.

Does God change?
Was he wrong when he said A, B, C, through Z in the OT?
So does that take some people out of hell and put them in heaven and vice versa?
Didn't Jesus say that he came to uphold the laws of the OT?
So you don't like the OT god but you love his son--who's actually his dad?

The argument I've heard from some Christians is that: God didn't change. Mankind changed. i.e. Back in the time of the OT we humans were too psychologically & philosophically 'unsophisticated' to receive God's true message... So God had to tell us what to do in a rather crude fashion, in ways we should have been able to follow back then.
Personally, I think all the Jesus stuff is just a bunch of clap-trap given to us by God because we are still to ignorant to understand His true message. God probably has to wait until cybernetic driven evolution has kicked in for us to be smart enough to really understand!

Yeah, that's dispensationalism in a nutshell.

 

[couch_sloth]

The argument I've heard from some Christians is that: God didn't change. Mankind changed. i.e. Back in the time of the OT we humans were too psychologically & philosophically 'unsophisticated' to receive God's true message... So God had to tell us what to do in a rather crude fashion, in ways we should have been able to follow back then.
Personally, I think all the Jesus stuff is just a bunch of clap-trap given to us by God because we are still to ignorant to understand His true message. God probably has to wait until cybernetic driven evolution has kicked in for us to be smart enough to really understand!

If God is so all-Everything, then surely he could have designed us well enough to understand him. Or it should be no problem for It to communicate with us.

And if mankind changed... but it didn't. We were still killing, fighting, stealing, and fucking back then. One of the good things about the Bible is that it gives great insight into the human condition of those times. And the thing about that is that we're exactly the same today. We still have the same foibles, the same stupid shit, the same mistakes. We're just less ignorant about the natural world...

Yeah, I agree.
If God exists, he could have provided a much more compassionate set of religious beliefs for the Jews 3500+ years ago.
I don't believe it's that hard to have a 'compassionate society' just so long as there is: Stability, People's basic needs are met, and there's a general sense of fairness in the society. (God could of easily provided for these things, as well as a nicer set of religious doctrines)...
No need to wait 100s of years for mankind to philosophically evolve, or some such nonsense.

 

[Herrick]

Isn't there a "disclaimer verse" in the Koran that if a newer verse contradicts an older verse then the newer one is to be followed? They should've put that in the Bible.

 

[skepticalbip]

Isn't there a "disclaimer verse" in the Koran that if a newer verse contradicts an older verse then the newer one is to be followed? They should've put that in the Bible.

Could be although I have never heard of that disclaimer. However, it would be difficult to impossible to determine which verses were written first since the Koran isn't arranged chronologically. It is arranged by the length of the verses, starting with the longest verse and ending with the shortest verse.

 

[Kharakov]

Isn't there a "disclaimer verse" in the Koran that if a newer verse contradicts an older verse then the newer one is to be followed? They should've put that in the Bible.

Well, one "book" in the Bible says something quite different. "I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book; 19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the holy city, which are written in this book."

There are various reasons... it's the part with various links to certain Numerological things, which were meant to prove that a non-advanced civilization, which almost every atheist agrees created the Bible, could not have come up with the various hidden messages in Revelation. Of course the atheist response to that will be "well, this just means there was an advanced civilization that hid or destroyed itself after it created the book of Revelation".

So, my take is that Dinosaurs developed lots of cool drugs, and then they were like "hell, let's genetically engineer this stuff into some of these plants, because this stuff is awesome". And they were all like.. yo man... 75 million years ago, the bong hits you bro. And then they developed the WWW:

 

[ideologyhunter]

One useful aspect of O.T. craziness is that it forces the inerrancy crowd to assert that genocide is a value-neutral term. Infanticide, too. If god tells you to put an entire population to the sword, then you're righteous as you stab the innards of the elderly, the youth, the infants. And kill their donkeys, too (See Joshua.) This is a religion for nut cases.

 

[Kharakov]

One useful aspect of O.T. craziness is that it forces the inerrancy crowd to assert that genocide is a value-neutral term. Infanticide, too. If god tells you to put an entire population to the sword, then you're righteous as you stab the innards of the elderly, the youth, the infants. And kill their donkeys, too (See Joshua.) This is a religion for nut cases.

I don't know if you know how I feel about unicorns, but since they are donkeys from the future, I have no problem with them being killed.

ohh, yeah. That extends to biblical ass.