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Can people be incited to riot?

AthenaAwakened

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Can the words spoken to a crowd make that crowd become a mob and get that mob to riot? If so, should the speakers of those words be held responsible?

A case in point

The Red Shirt Riots of 1898 in Wilmington NC,

The white newspaper in Wilmington published an inflammatory speech given by Rebecca Felton, a Georgia feminist a year earlier: "If it requires lynching to protect woman's dearest possession from ravening, drunken human beasts, then I say lynch a thousand negroes a week ... if it is necessary." The article infuriated Alex Manly, a Wilmington African-American newspaper editor. He replied by writing an editorial sarcastically noting that many of these so-called lynchings for rapes were cover-ups for the discovery of consensual interracial sexual relations. The Manly article fueled raging fires. White radicals vowed to win the election by any means possible. Although black voters turned out in large numbers, Democrats stuffed the ballot boxes and swept to victory throughout the state. But in Wilmington, the political victory did not soften white fury. Whites staged a coup d'Ètat and drove all black officeholders out of office. A mob set Manly's newspaper office on fire and a riot erupted. Whites began to gun down blacks on the streets. Harry Hayden, one of the rioters, stated that many of the mob were respectable citizens. "The Men who took down their shotguns and cleared the Negroes out of office yesterday were not a mob of plug uglies. They were men of property, intelligence, culture ... clergyman, lawyers, bankers, merchants. They are not a mob, They are revolutionists asserting a sacred privilege and a right." By the next day, the killing ended. Officially, twenty-five blacks died. But hundreds more may have been killed, their bodies dumped into the river.

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/jimcrow/stories_events_riot.html
 
Interesting historical facts. Seems not dissimilar to ethnics riots (or massacres) elsewhere around the world, like between Yezidis and Muslims.

I would assume that the amount of "pure" white people still in the USA is one of the effects of events like this.
 
Can the words spoken to a crowd make that crowd become a mob and get that mob to riot? If so, should the speakers of those words be held responsible?

Yes, especially if the emotions of the people listening are already high.

Yes, the speakers can and are held responsible.
 
Yes, people can be 'incited' to riot.

People can be incited to riot by hearing things they already believe.

People can be incited to riot by their football (soccer) team losing. Or winning.

People can be incited to riot because a Booker-prize winning author wrote some sentences in a book they've never read.

If we're going to charge people with incitement to riot, we should start with Salman Rushdie. This violent asshole prick wrote some words in a book and then hundreds of thousands of Muslims destroyed property and killed people because of it.

If we're going to charge people with incitement to riot, we should hunt out and exterminate the sole Charlie Hebdo writer.

If we're going to charge people with incitement to riot, we might as well cede all our liberty to violent thugs directly and immediately.

Violent thugs should not have to wait around on a fickle State to punish the people that hurt their fee-fees with this court of law business. Let's just do whatever the violent thugs want straight away without question.
 
Yes, people can be 'incited' to riot.

People can be incited to riot by hearing things they already believe.

People can be incited to riot by their football (soccer) team losing. Or winning.

People can be incited to riot because a Booker-prize winning author wrote some sentences in a book they've never read.

If we're going to charge people with incitement to riot, we should start with Salman Rushdie. This violent asshole prick wrote some words in a book and then hundreds of thousands of Muslims destroyed property and killed people because of it.

If we're going to charge people with incitement to riot, we should hunt out and exterminate the sole Charlie Hebdo writer.

If we're going to charge people with incitement to riot, we might as well cede all our liberty to violent thugs directly and immediately.

Violent thugs should not have to wait around on a fickle State to punish the people that hurt their fee-fees with this court of law business. Let's just do whatever the violent thugs want straight away without question.

uh huh.
 
Yes, people can be 'incited' to riot.

People can be incited to riot by hearing things they already believe.

People can be incited to riot by their football (soccer) team losing. Or winning.

People can be incited to riot because a Booker-prize winning author wrote some sentences in a book they've never read.

If we're going to charge people with incitement to riot, we should start with Salman Rushdie. This violent asshole prick wrote some words in a book and then hundreds of thousands of Muslims destroyed property and killed people because of it.

If we're going to charge people with incitement to riot, we should hunt out and exterminate the sole Charlie Hebdo writer.

If we're going to charge people with incitement to riot, we might as well cede all our liberty to violent thugs directly and immediately.

Violent thugs should not have to wait around on a fickle State to punish the people that hurt their fee-fees with this court of law business. Let's just do whatever the violent thugs want straight away without question.

uh huh.

Athena, did you know that 'homosexual panic' is still being used as a partial defence for murder? That murdering someone because he cracked on to you can get downgraded to 'involuntary manslaughter' because you were so enraged that this faggot dared to assume you were open to same man-on-man action?

Incitement to riot is like that, but worse. It would put criminal charges on the little faggot for inciting the murderer into killing him.

Does that sound fair to you?
 

Athena, did you know that 'homosexual panic' is still being used as a partial defence for murder? That murdering someone because he cracked on to you can get downgraded to 'involuntary manslaughter' because you were so enraged that this faggot dared to assume you were open to same man-on-man action?

Incitement to riot is like that, but worse. It would put criminal charges on the little faggot for inciting the murderer into killing him.

Does that sound fair to you?

Yes, I am well aware that a great many people believe that the worse thing you can call a man is a woman. That is what makes gay men so scary. They are believed to willingly take the part of a woman in the sex act. So to call a man gay is the same as saying he is weak and he is a woman and he lacks manhood.

And that is believed to be enough of a reason to kill.

I am well aware. My cousin Monica was shot dead on a city sidewalk in Washington DC because she dared to love a woman. And then her siblings were informed that her body could not be buried in the family cemetery because her sinful life would desecrate holy ground. Her uncle cussed out half the family and started another cemetery because while he admitted he didn't understand her life, she was still his niece, and I quote "No wooden Jesus was going to keep that child from resting in peace among her kin."

I raised a black, gay child. I worry every time we part I won't see him again. So yeah, I know.

Now I don't know what the laws are in Australia, but incitement here would be brought against the guy in bar who talked up killing the gay man, not the gay man. Panic would be the reason the jury comes back with a not guilty verdict or a slap on the wrist, although no one would admit it.

If panic is a defense down under, y'all need to change your laws, and panic that does not negate the need for or the jurisprudence behind incitement laws.
 
There are roughly five kinds of incitement-to-riot statutes, with additional variations within five categories. The most basic kind of incitement-to-riot statute simply criminalizes committing an act “that urges other persons to riot."

The rest are all variations on the above that include an intent element to incite, a crowd that's already rioting, a crowd that is about to, or a crowd that's susceptible to it, and there's even a federal statute dealing incitement through the mail with the intent to cause a riot (interstate commerce stuff).

It is by no means a defense for a rioter to say they were incited though.

At any rate, crowds in a state of high emotion can be incited and that's supported not just by the fact that every state, and the federal government, has a statute dealing with it, but also that the phenomenon of mob violence has been a topic in both sociology and psychology. There's no question that it occurs, but the precise how and why are where the disagreement lies (apparently).

But it seems there is a growing number of academics who believe there is no such thing as a kind of mindless, de-individualized crowd that can be incited to do something it wouldn't do otherwise. The following is gruesomely long, so feel free to ignore it.

In 2005, David Schweingruber and Ronald T. Wohlstein argued that sociology textbooks should do away with overarching theories of crowd behavior entirely, and look instead to empirical research that has been done on how crowds actually behave.441 They explain that critical thinking about crowds has shifted from seeing them as suggestible, emotional, and irrational to seeing them as “shaped by the same forces that shape other social behavior.”442

Basing their analysis on work by Carl Couch in 1968443 and Clark McPhail in 1991,444 Schweingruber and Wohlstein debunk seven myths about crowd behavior: irrationality, emotionality, suggestibility, destructiveness, spontaneity, anonymity, and unanimity. The myth of irrationality claims that crowds cause people to lose their ability to engage in rational thought; for example, causing panic.445 However, research into emergency dispersal has shown that people in crowds in dangerous situations don't panic, but instead are guided by social relationships and exhibit altruistic behavior.446 The myth of emotionality claims that people in crowds are more governed by their emotions.447 Both Couch's 1968 work and a 1987 study by Turner and Killian argue that emotions are in fact present in many social interactions, and crowds are not exceptional in this regard.448

The third myth is that people in crowds are more likely to obey others. No research supports this conclusion. The fact that crowds usually do not disperse when ordered to by authorities suggests that the myth of suggestibility may in fact be incorrect.449 The fourth myth claims that people in crowds are more likely to be violent. Couch argued that in clashes between crowds and authorities, the authorities in fact commit more violence than the crowds.450 Research has shown that crowd violence is rare,451 and is often carried out by small groups within the gathering.452 Police interaction with crowds may in fact spur crowd violence where it wouldn't otherwise occur.

No research has demonstrated that crowd behavior is more spontaneous than individual behavior.454 In fact, studies have shown that many crowds require planning or rely on “repertoires of collective action” that are understood by other members of the culture, such as strikes or boycotts.455

Deindividuation relies in large part on the idea that people in crowds are anonymous and thus unaccountable for their behavior, which allows them to do things they otherwise would not do. A number of studies have noted that crowds are not composed of anonymous individuals, but of small groups that know each other well.456 Anonymity may exist vis a vis authority figures, but not with respect to other members of the crowd.457 Presumably, then, social norms would still be enforced between these individuals. Individuals gather not because they seek to benefit from anonymity, but because of the social links and common goals they share.
The myth of unanimity claims that crowds act in unison. Research has shown that crowds in fact contain alternating and varying individual and collective actions, with unanimous or near-unanimous behavior being rare and short-lived.458

So that's the other side of it. But like almost everything else, it has to be examined case by case. Is there any doubt that Hitler could have gotten crowds of people, people who likely would not have done otherwise, to run out of the building and into the street to commit all kinds of mayhem? I hate to go with the Hitler analogy but it works.

Sorry for the length, but it's an interesting OP.
 
Yes, people can be 'incited' to riot.

People can be incited to riot by hearing things they already believe.

People can be incited to riot by their football (soccer) team losing. Or winning.

People can be incited to riot because a Booker-prize winning author wrote some sentences in a book they've never read.


If we're going to charge people with incitement to riot, we should start with Salman Rushdie. This violent asshole prick wrote some words in a book and then hundreds of thousands of Muslims destroyed property and killed people because of it.

If we're going to charge people with incitement to riot, we should hunt out and exterminate the sole Charlie Hebdo writer.


If we're going to charge people with incitement to riot, we might as well cede all our liberty to violent thugs directly and immediately.

Violent thugs should not have to wait around on a fickle State to punish the people that hurt their fee-fees with this court of law business. Let's just do whatever the violent thugs want straight away without question.

Not the same thing.

They're not giving away their speech for free.

They're not standing on street corner inciting an already excitable crowd.

You have to actually BUY their media, then flip through the material and find their inciteful words, then get all freaked out about them.

Obviously Salman Rushdie's book sales would have been astronomical had all the people who rioted about it actually bought his book and read it. Same with Charlie Hebdo. Did the freaks who got messed up about the cartoon actually have a subscription to the magazine?
 
Clearly it is a psychological fact that people's actions are causally impacted by the words of others. Words alone are not a sufficient cause for a riot, but they can be the necessary causal spark that when thrown onto other factors ignite a riot that would otherwise not have occurred.

As for prosecution, we don't need to limit this to riots. The same legal and moral principles apply to using words to incite other to engage in any illegal act of harm to others or their property. In fact, if inciting to riot is not in principle punishable (rather than merely hard to prove), then neither should be conspiracy to commit murder or terrorism or anything that falls short of personally engaging in a physical criminal act.
However, we ought to limit it to words intentionally designed to illicit those illegal actions, and not words that caused people to commit crimes that the speaker was not intending to trigger. IOW, stirring up dislike and negative emotions about something or some other people is not enough. There must be a rather clear call to criminal actions.

We must be careful not to set the bar high enough that there is little to no chance that speech not intended to prompt criminal behavior is prosecuted as a crime. At the same time, the simplistic rejection of ever prosecuting such speech (which seems to be Metaphor's position) would mean inability to prosecute any terrorist that didn't directly and already execute a criminal act, or any mob-boss, corporate CEO, or accomplices that merely ordered and orchestrated a crime but did not themselves engage in a physical action that was a crime.
 
Yes, people can be 'incited' to riot.

People can be incited to riot by hearing things they already believe.

People can be incited to riot by their football (soccer) team losing. Or winning.

People can be incited to riot because a Booker-prize winning author wrote some sentences in a book they've never read.


If we're going to charge people with incitement to riot, we should start with Salman Rushdie. This violent asshole prick wrote some words in a book and then hundreds of thousands of Muslims destroyed property and killed people because of it.

If we're going to charge people with incitement to riot, we should hunt out and exterminate the sole Charlie Hebdo writer.


If we're going to charge people with incitement to riot, we might as well cede all our liberty to violent thugs directly and immediately.

Violent thugs should not have to wait around on a fickle State to punish the people that hurt their fee-fees with this court of law business. Let's just do whatever the violent thugs want straight away without question.

Not the same thing.

They're not giving away their speech for free.

They're not standing on street corner inciting an already excitable crowd.

You have to actually BUY their media, then flip through the material and find their inciteful words, then get all freaked out about them.

Obviously Salman Rushdie's book sales would have been astronomical had all the people who rioted about it actually bought his book and read it. Same with Charlie Hebdo. Did the freaks who got messed up about the cartoon actually have a subscription to the magazine?

Of course they dd not buy or read The Satanic Verses, but that's what they were rioting about. But for Salman Rushdie writing and publishing it, there would not have been property damage and death because of The Satanic Verses.

So can anyone tell me why Salman Rushdie should be exempt from inciting to riot laws?
 
There must be a rather clear call to criminal actions.

People defending incitement to riot laws do not require a 'clear call to criminal actions'. In my homophobia counter-protest example, it was suggested that if you were sufficiently 'in your face' when counter-protesting a homophobic crowd and they get violent, you have incited to riot, even if all you did was visually mock them or ridicule them or offend them with no calls for physical violence directly or indirectly.

Some incitement to riot statutes don't even call for an intention to cause a riot, merely that your actions DID cause a riot.
 
I remember watching Bruno when he was in the wrestling cage and was spouting a bunch of macho anti-gay stuff and then started making out with the other guy. The audience was angry and confused. That was funny as hell.

 
Not the same thing.

They're not giving away their speech for free.

They're not standing on street corner inciting an already excitable crowd.

You have to actually BUY their media, then flip through the material and find their inciteful words, then get all freaked out about them.

Obviously Salman Rushdie's book sales would have been astronomical had all the people who rioted about it actually bought his book and read it. Same with Charlie Hebdo. Did the freaks who got messed up about the cartoon actually have a subscription to the magazine?

Of course they dd not buy or read The Satanic Verses, but that's what they were rioting about. But for Salman Rushdie writing and publishing it, there would not have been property damage and death because of The Satanic Verses.

So can anyone tell me why Salman Rushdie should be exempt from inciting to riot laws?

So it's on them, not him.
 
Incite
1. encourage or stir up (violent or unlawful behavior).
2. urge or persuade (someone) to act in a violent or unlawful way

Writing something that someone doesn't like is not the same as telling someone to storm a jail and hang a inmate.
 
Incite vs Provoke. It would be worth parsing the differences between them. I have been using provoke instead of onsite incorrectly.
 
There must be a rather clear call to criminal actions.

People defending incitement to riot laws do not require a 'clear call to criminal actions'. In my homophobia counter-protest example, it was suggested that if you were sufficiently 'in your face' when counter-protesting a homophobic crowd and they get violent, you have incited to riot, even if all you did was visually mock them or ridicule them or offend them with no calls for physical violence directly or indirectly.

Some incitement to riot statutes don't even call for an intention to cause a riot, merely that your actions DID cause a riot.

And such laws are/would-be a terrible idea that squashes not only free speech, but would make anyone that did anything (such as kiss a same-gender person in public) a criminal if others got angry enough about it to engage in criminal acts.

But you jumped in the thread prior to those examples and took a stance against incitement to riot laws in general. Does this reply mean that you now acknowledge that there are some direct calls for riots and other criminal actions that should be considered criminal?
 
So can anyone tell me why Salman Rushdie should be exempt from inciting to riot laws?

He wasn't encouraging a crowd to do anything. A work of fiction is simply not the same thing as urging a live, emotionally charged group of people to commit violent acts.

It's like comparing the casual bumping into of someone in a crowded place to throwing molotov cocktails at a library.

I don't really know how you've arrived at the comparison that you have.
 
Can the words spoken to a crowd make that crowd become a mob and get that mob to riot? If so, should the speakers of those words be held responsible?
Yes. If and when their speech passes the Brandenburg Test in which it is clear they INTENDED to incite violence and that they did so at a time when it seemed likely they would succeed.

In the Red Shirt Riots, the newspaper articles would not qualify because neither the initial speech nor the response actually advocated violence, nor were they (arguably) intended to.

Whoever it is that lead the first acts of the coup de tat, however, WOULD. Primarily because he intended to lead others in an act of violence and a riot was the result of his willful action.


Yes, people can be 'incited' to riot.

People can be incited to riot by hearing things they already believe.

People can be incited to riot by their football (soccer) team losing. Or winning.

People can be incited to riot because a Booker-prize winning author wrote some sentences in a book they've never read.
The LEGAL definition of the term defines that people can be incited to riot where the inciter intends to create a violent situation, and where there is a climate of immanent lawlessness that the speaker/inciter deliberately takes advantage of. This has been pointed out to you several times.

Violent thugs should not have to wait around on a fickle State to punish the people that hurt their fee-fees with this court of law business.
And they don't. This, too, has been pointed out to you several times that no court in America has EVER successfully prosecuted a inctement to violence case that doesn't pass the Brandenburg test. I do not even know of an ATTEMPT to do so, since the legal precedent is so remarkably unambiguous.


There are roughly five kinds of incitement-to-riot statutes, with additional variations within five categories. The most basic kind of incitement-to-riot statute simply criminalizes committing an act “that urges other persons to riot."

The rest are all variations on the above that include an intent element to incite, a crowd that's already rioting, a crowd that is about to, or a crowd that's susceptible to it, and there's even a federal statute dealing incitement through the mail with the intent to cause a riot (interstate commerce stuff).

It is by no means a defense for a rioter to say they were incited though.
Exactly.


There must be a rather clear call to criminal actions.

People defending incitement to riot laws do not require a 'clear call to criminal actions'.
Except they are, because they do. It only becomes vague in the case that someone who does not later participate in violence attempts to trigger violent behavior in others, through pranks, threats, or rumors; it is much harder to establish intent in those cases, which is why the KKK and the Aryan Nations have learned to be VERY careful in their public communications to avoid that law (mainly because very few juries would actually believe the KKK, of all people, didn't intend to incite a riot).

Some incitement to riot statutes don't even call for an intention to cause a riot
Yes they do. Every single one of them.

You don't know what you're talking about.
 
People defending incitement to riot laws do not require a 'clear call to criminal actions'. In my homophobia counter-protest example, it was suggested that if you were sufficiently 'in your face' when counter-protesting a homophobic crowd and they get violent, you have incited to riot, even if all you did was visually mock them or ridicule them or offend them with no calls for physical violence directly or indirectly.

Some incitement to riot statutes don't even call for an intention to cause a riot, merely that your actions DID cause a riot.

And such laws are/would-be a terrible idea that squashes not only free speech, but would make anyone that did anything (such as kiss a same-gender person in public) a criminal if others got angry enough about it to engage in criminal acts.

But you jumped in the thread prior to those examples and took a stance against incitement to riot laws in general. Does this reply mean that you now acknowledge that there are some direct calls for riots and other criminal actions that should be considered criminal?

If incitement to riot laws were written in such a way that they only criminalised direct calls for violence/criminal actions, and nobody who was merely ridiculing and mocking people were caught in the net, I wouldn't really have a problem.
 
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