• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Can Unbelievers be killed? Acts Chapter 3 v 23

SLD

Contributor
Joined
Feb 25, 2001
Messages
5,106
Location
Birmingham, Alabama
Basic Beliefs
Freethinker
Acts Chapter 3 verse 23 has some interesting different translations. In the KJV it says:

“And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.”

But the NIV says:

“Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people.”

Seems to me this newer translation is trying to soften the idea of killing unbelievers. This would be popular in today’s views of religion where the killing of unbelievers is frowned upon. Not so much during King James day.

But what’s the correct translation?
 
I'd argue that the political bias is the other way around; King James had every reason to want to justify the anti-Semitic violence characteristic of his family line and the contemporaneous law of the land. Whereas the NIV board has less money and violence invested in anti-Semitic language, though the translation is not entirely free of criticism on that front.

If we look at the original text, I'd argue that either translation is valid, but that the KJV translation probably comes closer to the sense that the verse's authors intended. The Textus Receptus, the Greek edition that James' translators were using, records this verse as:

εσται δε πασα ψυχη ητις αν μη ακουση του προφητου εκεινου εξολοθρευθησεται εκ του λαου

The key term is bolded: εξολοθρευθησεται. Interpreting it is a slight problem, as it is only found in this text; no exact equivalent is seen in any other Greek text. The usual method of interpreting by examining context of existing cases is therefore impossible, and it makes it very hard to get the sense, or connatation, of the word as it would have been perceived by its original listeners. This leaves only morphological analysis, which is usually better at explaining etymology than implication. But it does cast some light on the probable meaning of the term. This is a fairly complex verb, a phenomenon much more common in Greek than in English. Its root word is problematic, as it does not exist at all in the historical record and can only be inferred from the structure of this instance of it: ἐξολεθρεύω. No certain definition is possible here. But this root, whatever its meaning, is almost certainly itself derived from ὄλεθρος. This is a much more common word, and it means, straightforwardly, "destruction". We see ὄλεθρος used to describe scenes of utter devastation throughout the New Testament, from the description of the Apocalypse in the letters of Paul to Thessalonia to the descriptions of Satan's destruction of the soul in Hell in the letters of Timothy and that to the Corinthians. Always heavy stuff, and notably, always the work of supernatural agents, in both Christian and non-Christian texts. Destruction beyond what mundane human violence could possibly accomplish. Divine retribution seems strongly implied here.

The rest of the mystery word are affixes, though, and subject to interpretation. "-εύω" makes it a verb rather than a noun. "ἐξο-" usually means "out of" or "from" and is one of the more common prefixes in Greek morphology, carrying a wide range of potential meanings. The other modifications are conjugations, making this a Future Passive Indicative 3rd Person Singular, ie something that "will (factually, not speculatively) happen to him".

A further wrinkle is that for the original authors, this whole sermon was actually a reference to an older text, the popular Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures known as the Septuagint, or LXX. The verse Peter is quoting here is found in the book of Deuteronomy, Chapter 18, verses 15-19. In English, this passage reads “The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brothers — it is to him you shall listen — just as you desired of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly, when you said, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God or see this great fire any more, lest I die.’ And the Lord said to me, ‘They are right in what they have spoken. I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. And whoever will not listen to my words that he shall speak in my name, I myself will require it of him." A key passage for those Jews who believed in the coming of a future Messiah. Notably, it says nothing at all about detroying those who aren't on board, just that YHWH will "personally require" that they listen to his prophet. Threatening, to be sure, but pointedly vague. Both ancient and modern skeptics have argued that this position of "prophet" or "judge" in Moses' absence was originally meant to be a permanent office that many would occupy over time, as opposed to a single Messiah figure, and these powers were historically claimed by the Judean monarchy. But there you have it.

All in all, given the use of somewhat similar phrases in the NT, I think it is most probable that some kind of End Times, apocalyptic destruction is being implied here. Though not holy war, as you seem to be implying, as the original sspeaker would have been in no position whatsoever to wage one, this being written more than two centuries before Christians ever held real political power.
 
Last edited:
Shunning was a tribal penalty, exclusion.

I;d say it means spirtutul destruction not physical.

There are no original documents.

It is all interpretaion.

I read about a 19th century Christian who figured he's get to the bottom of it.
He learned Hebrew and Greek. In the end he concluded there was no traceable original source.

Back then excision from a group ciould have survival implications. Np support. No food.
 
RSV (1946): "...every soul that does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people."
Good News Bible (1966): "Anyone who does not obey that prophet shall be separated from God's people and destroyed."

Those are similar phrasings, although the RSV is an awkward construction -- whoever says 'destroyed from the people'? As a literal wording, it doesn't make sense.
Neither translation says what 'destroyed' actually means, or who does the destroying. Neither do the verses that follow. My idle guess: it refers to the final dispensation and judgment. God's people get to see the new Jerusalem, a big town that's 1500 miles wide & long. People like me get shoveled into the cosmic poop chute. So it's a useful verse for the priest class to arm themselves with.
 
'destroyed from the people'? As a literal wording, it doesn't make sense.
Though a very literal translation of the words themselves.

Neither translation says what 'destroyed' actually means, or who does the destroying. Neither do the verses that follow. My idle guess: it refers to the final dispensation and judgment. God's people get to see the new Jerusalem, a big town that's 1500 miles wide & long. People like me get shoveled into the cosmic poop chute. So it's a useful verse for the priest class to arm themselves with.
I think this is the most likely meaning. As I noted, its word root is a noun almost exclusively associated with supernatural wrath elsewhere in the canon.
 
When God assures me that something WILL happen, I take it for granted that He isn't asking me for help with the task.

I mean, like, He didn't ask me to take care of the witches. He didn't put me in charge of sifting the wheat/chaff or stoning adulterers. Quite the contrary. He told me sinners can't judge sinners. Something about logs/specs of dust...casting the first stone...etc etc.

So no, I don't think anyone is required to kill unbelievers.

Now, in contrast, there are countless secular examples of people being explicitly ordered to kill specific classes of humans. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence
 
Romans, Persians, Egyptians and Hebrews were living in harsh realitis and had harsh punishments.

We see the form today everyday in the news.

A republican who rejects Trump is shunned by the republican party. Meaning he or she can't raise campaign money. Tribal is as tribal does.
 
I mean, like, He didn't ask me to take care of the witches. He didn't put me in charge of sifting the wheat/chaff or stoning adulterers. Quite the contrary. He told me sinners can't judge sinners. Something about logs/specs of dust...casting the first stone...etc etc.

Not sure I am following you, at all. This sounds exactly like what you'll hear Squeaky Fromme say about Manson, if you google her 2019 interview -- "I am honored to have known him. Charlie never told me to kill anyone."
When the entity commanding murder is God, it's easier to show the culpability than in Manson's case.
Ex. 22:18 commands the reader (or his community, anyway) to kill any woman who practices witchcraft.
Lev. 20:10 says that both parties to adultery shall be executed.
Jesus says that he has not come to alter one jot or tittle of the law.
John 8:1-11, about the woman caught in adultery and the famous "He who is without sin" statement, is not in the earliest manuscripts and is considered by a majority of scholars to have been interpolated by a scribe.
The fact that today, in the west, we don't burn Satanists or stone fornicators to death just means that we've progressed a bit past Hebraic law.
 
Acts Chapter 3 verse 23 has some interesting different translations. In the KJV it says:

“And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.”

But the NIV says:

“Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people.”

Seems to me this newer translation is trying to soften the idea of killing unbelievers. This would be popular in today’s views of religion where the killing of unbelievers is frowned upon. Not so much during King James day.

But what’s the correct translation?

You must be unaware of Christians who are quite concerned, who warn people to beware of the NIV and similar new translations, for example: missing verses and changes of meanings in verses to name a few. There's tons of vids and sermons about this.


I'll use this exerpt as an example, borrowing from the link below:

12 unspoken reasons why you should never use the NIV
https://becomingchristians.com/2018/06/18/12-unspoken-reasons-why-you-should-never-use-the-new-international-version-niv-bible/

"..... among the many passages that the NIV changed. According to one estimate I read, there are over 60,000 words deleted in the NIV translation!

Let me give you a list of some of the verses that NIV deleted."

Matthew 17:21
Matthew 23:14
Mark 7:16
Mark 9:44
Mark 9:46
Mark 11:26
Mark 15:28
Luke 17:36
John 5:3–4
Acts 8:37
Acts 15:34
Acts 24:6–8
Acts 28:29
Romans 16:24

Reminds me of the warning from Jesus about those who are misleading people, like the several verses of 'Woe to you scribes' in Matt 23 :worried:
 
Deleted from what? The New Testament has no single autograph to which one could compare. What you mean is that they made different choices than the KJV, which is to be expected in a new translation. If you're reading an authorized copy of the NIV, none of those verses are entirely unmentioned, you just need to look down at the footnotes, where they explain the multiple manuscripts problem.

The link is pretty funny, though! "Unspoken" indeed. As though the KJV-only crowd could ever be convinced to stop yammering about the scholastic superiority of Medieval witch-burners.
 
Deleted from what? The New Testament has no single autograph to which one could compare. What you mean is that they made different choices than the KJV, which is to be expected in a new translation. If you're reading an authorized copy of the NIV, none of those verses are entirely unmentioned, you just need to look down at the footnotes, where they explain the multiple manuscripts problem.

The link is pretty funny, though! "Unspoken" indeed. As though the KJV-only crowd could ever be convinced to stop yammering about the scholastic superiority of Medieval witch-burners.

Ah yes ok sorry about that. I browsed a little too quick over the net when there are are better examples, no doubt with a better title-heading than the title "unspoken...", which may be of a better satisfaction to you. But anyhow, my main point: the KJV is the better translation to the NIV when we compare to the much older (by a thousand years), Dead Sea Scrolls. The difference's with KJV and DSS .. is trivial, mainly grammatical differences or errors which makes NO changes to the narrative of course. But as you can see with the NIV, simply put, that's a lot of words and verses missing. Missing verses = missing information, to state the obvious.

I'm not KJV only, because, as you may do yourself... I take advantage of cross referencing between translations/ versions etc..
 
Ah yes ok sorry about that. I browsed a little too quick over the net when there are are better examples, no doubt with a better title-heading than the title "unspoken...", which may be of a better satisfaction to you. But anyhow, my main point: the KJV is the better translation to the NIV when we compare to the much older (by a thousand years), Dead Sea Scrolls. The difference's with KJV and DSS .. is trivial, mainly grammatical differences or errors which makes NO changes to the narrative of course. But as you can see with the NIV, simply put, that's a lot of words and verses missing. Missing verses = missing information, to state the obvious.
It's the "missing" part that seems overly theatrical to me. They didn't forget to include them, they just came to different conclusions than medieval scholars about was or wasn't included in the (purely hypothetical) autograph of these texts. Much less was known to Western academia about the provenance of the various manuscripts in 1611; the translators of the NIV had the advantage of being able to view and discuss the documentary evidence in considerably greater detail than their venerable forebears had access to.

I don't see how the DSS relate to the question at all, if we're talking about "missing" New Testament material. If you want a translation that is very close to the DSS, though, I would recommend the an English translation of Ethiopic Bible over any Protestant version, as Protestant translators intentionally left out entire books that are present in the ancient Hebrew assemblage, including the so-called Apocrypha and the Book of Enoch. A much more serious exclusion than a few absent verses in the later religion's canon, I should think. The original KJV, of course, did include the Apocrypha, as a sort of appendix. Indeed, Protestant suspicion of their authenticity is how they came to be called that in English scholarship in the first place. Enoch was never included, and in many modern editions of the KJV, neither are the Apocrypha.

I'm not KJV only, because, as you may do yourself... I take advantage of cross referencing between translations/ versions etc..

Anyone who doesn't, need hardly bother having a conversation about the Bible at all. The internet has made comparison of translations extremely easy and accessible.
 
I don't see how the DSS relate to the question at all, if we're talking about "missing" New Testament material. If you want a translation that is very close to the DSS, though, I would recommend the an English translation of Ethiopic Bible over any Protestant version, as Protestant translators intentionally left out entire books that are present in the ancient Hebrew assemblage, including the so-called Apocrypha and the Book of Enoch. A much more serious exclusion than a few absent verses in the later religion's canon, I should think. The original KJV, of course, did include the Apocrypha, as a sort of appendix. Indeed, that is how they came to be called that in English scholarship. Enoch was never included, and in many modern editions of the KJV, neither are the Apocrypha.

I got that too, I am thankful to Ethiopians (people forget they had scholars too). I believe the Ethiopic bible is a great reference that highlights the consistency when there are various version. The dead sea scrolls as I'm sure you know, highlights the books (minus Esther) very like the Ethiopian bible which incudes as you pointed out the book of Enoch 1, in which I think should be included in the KJV (not Enoch 2 or 3, considered to be much later). Septuagint has shown to clear up a verse or two that may make no sense in the OT of the KJV, and I will say, has it's missing lines too, apart from B.O.E. (I saw that bit demonstrated on a vid).

I'm not KJV only, because, as you may do yourself... I take advantage of cross referencing between translations/ versions etc..

Anyone who doesn't, need hardly bother having a conversation about the Bible at all. The internet has made comparison of translations extremely easy and accessible.

Agreed
 
The Christian bible cannon was decide at Nicaea. It was part political and part theological. Agnostics and others were excluded.

I believe the Jewish cannon was not set until after the fall of the Temple.


The NT was set by representatives of Christian sects who did not completely agree on theology. One was tghe question of the divinity of Jesus.

Christians argue over scripture that does not necessarily trace back to a Jesus.
 
The Christian bible cannon was decide at Nicaea. It was part political and part theological. Agnostics and others were excluded.

I believe the Jewish cannon was not set until after the fall of the Temple.

The NT was set by representatives of Christian sects who did not completely agree on theology. One was tghe question of the divinity of Jesus.

Christians argue over scripture that does not necessarily trace back to a Jesus.

Churches were already established before the cannon in the first century e.g., Pauls letters to the churches indicating the version of Christianity, as is, in the NT. I go along however, with some of the 'part political and part theological 'atmosphere' during that time in Nicea. Agnostics and others, especially of the late 2nd or 3rd century have a different view, when compared to the early Christians and early churches, a narrative measure to compare with, which would be noticeable to differentiate between the varid religious views/doctrines, hence them (aganostics and others) being excluded.
 
Acts Chapter 3 verse 23 has some interesting different translations. In the KJV it says:

“And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.”

But the NIV says:

“Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people.”

Seems to me this newer translation is trying to soften the idea of killing unbelievers. This would be popular in today’s views of religion where the killing of unbelievers is frowned upon. Not so much during King James day.

But what’s the correct translation?

Uh, let's be clear: Christianity does not suggest killing unbelievers. Verses like the above refer to the final judgment. And it is morally evil to interpret them the way you did.
 
Acts Chapter 3 verse 23 has some interesting different translations. In the KJV it says:

“And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.”

But the NIV says:

“Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people.”
Depending on exactly where they are "cut off" (say, the neck) it could mean exactly the same thing.
You know how polite those Suth'nas are.
 
It comes down not to what religious texts say, it is what the religious do in the name of relgion in the here and now.

Look at the recent violence in Jerusalem between Muslims and Jews overw hat both consider a holy site. Madness to say the least.

As Politesse said, translations and interpretations have always served a power figure. It is an important point for the Christians who blindly quote scripture.

The gospels served a purpose, sensationalize a movement to attract converts.
 
It comes down not to what religious texts say, it is what the religious do in the name of relgion in the here and now.

Look at the recent violence in Jerusalem between Muslims and Jews overw hat both consider a holy site. Madness to say the least.

As Politesse said, translations and interpretations have always served a power figure. It is an important point for the Christians who blindly quote scripture.

The gospels served a purpose, sensationalize a movement to attract converts.

Rather than theological differences, the conflict is territorial. The arguments may be religious, but the goal is to control Jerusalem. This is more similar to the Russian/Ukraine conflict.
 
Back
Top Bottom