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Can We Discuss Sex & Gender / Transgender People?

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Generation55

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Hi I am new here but I have been reading for about a month. I hope this is the right forum for this because it has become a political issue. If it's the wrong forum, I apologize.

With that said, I am looking to see if any of you guys can help me understand sex and gender and transgender people because it has been driving me nuts when I think about it. I want to say first off that I have no problem with trans people. If someone wants to dress or act a certain way, that is fine by me. My issue is with the gender/sex subject.

I have been reading the subject and I hear, "Sex and gender are different. They have nothing to do with each other." This confuses me because people say around 99% of people are "cisgender", which means your gender and sex match. But how can gender and sex "match" if they have nothing to do with each other? Saying they match is implying that sex and gender are the same thing and there is a right way and a wrong way, yet people insist on saying they have nothing to do with each other. For example, if someone is a born male and identifies as a man, people say they are cisgender because their sex and gender match. This implies there is a right way to be male and a right way to be female. Otherwise, how can you say they match?

Transgender people are "people whose gender identity differs from their birth sex." But if sex and gender have nothing to do with each other, how can someone state that "my gender differs from my birth sex?" This implies that a person's gender should be the same as their birth sex. But, this is in direct contradiction to the fact that people say, "sex and gender are different and have nothing to do with each other." But for 99% of people, sex and gender are the same. For example, when people find out the sex of their baby, they say, "it's a boy" or "it's a girl." But how can they say this when they only know the baby's sex and not their gender? We are told that only the person themselves can decide what gender they are. So this implies parents should say, "I found out my baby will be born with a penis. But, I have no idea if it will be a boy or girl because they haven't decided their gender yet." Nobody says this. They all say "boy" or "girl" and give the baby "he" and "she" pronouns before they are even born. This implies sex and gender are the same thing. So if 99% of people are comfortable with their gender and sex being the same thing, how can people still claim gender and sex have nothing to do with each other?

So when trans women say, "I was assigned male at birth but I now identify as a woman," this implies that people who are assigned male at birth are supposed to identify as a man. But, how can this be if sex and gender have nothing to do with each other? If someone is assigned male at birth and identifies as a woman, how can this even be considered "transgender" if sex and gender are supposed to have nothing to do with each other? One can just as easily say, "I was born male and I identify as a man and I am transgender becuase sex and gender have nothing to do with each other. Being a man doesn't have anything to do with my penis." The term "transgender" implies that gender and sex should match each other. But if they match this implies gender and sex are the same thing despite the fact people say they are completely different.

Can you guys see the point I am trying to make here? I am trying to explain it as best as I can. Let me summarize: On one hand, people say gender and sex are completely different and have nothing to do with each other. Yet, 99% of people are "cisgender," which means that your gender and sex are the same thing. Can anyone solve this contradiction? I've been trying to for a while and I can't think of a good answer. This is why I'm asking you guys. As I said, I have no problem with trans people. I just feel like there is a big contradiction here with these definitions. I hope you guys can answer these questions for me. I've been driving myself nuts thinking about this.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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First off, welcome aboard. Kittens are available in The Lounge.
Hi I am new here but I have been reading for about a month. I hope this is the right forum for this because it has become a political issue. If it's the wrong forum, I apologize.

With that said, I am looking to see if any of you guys can help me understand sex and gender and transgender people because it has been driving me nuts when I think about it. I want to say first off that I have no problem with trans people. If someone wants to dress or act a certain way, that is fine by me. My issue is with the gender/sex subject.
First criticism here is that term "want". It sounds nitpicky, but when someone says they "want" to dress or act a certain way that can be implied to mean it is more of a choice, than an identity, as in who they are. I don't want to find Asian women attractive, but I do for whatever biological reason.
*snip*

Can you guys see the point I am trying to make here? I am trying to explain it as best as I can. Let me summarize: On one hand, people say gender and sex are completely different and have nothing to do with each other. Yet, 99% of people are "cisgender," which means that your gender and sex are the same thing. Can anyone solve this contradiction? I've been trying to for a while and I can't think of a good answer. This is why I'm asking you guys. As I said, I have no problem with trans people. I just feel like there is a big contradiction here with these definitions. I hope you guys can answer these questions for me. I've been driving myself nuts thinking about this.
The better question is why does it matter? Human identity is baselined. You have ye olde bell curve regarding identity. You'll have the general identification with a gender and then the standard deviations to the sides. Whether we call things sex, gender, is distracting and not recognizing what actually matters. And that is the appreciation for the fact that some individuals don't match up with the sex organs.

Sometimes we are obsessed with labeling stuff, to the point, it becomes a lot more important than the human aspect of it. We have males that like females, males that like males, males that don't think they are males and like females, males that don't think they are males and like males. And likewise with females. This is what is. Labels have become a distraction.
 

Generation55

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First off, welcome aboard. Kittens are available in The Lounge.
Hi I am new here but I have been reading for about a month. I hope this is the right forum for this because it has become a political issue. If it's the wrong forum, I apologize.

With that said, I am looking to see if any of you guys can help me understand sex and gender and transgender people because it has been driving me nuts when I think about it. I want to say first off that I have no problem with trans people. If someone wants to dress or act a certain way, that is fine by me. My issue is with the gender/sex subject.
First criticism here is that term "want". It sounds nitpicky, but when someone says they "want" to dress or act a certain way that can be implied to mean it is more of a choice, than an identity, as in who they are. I don't want to find Asian women attractive, but I do for whatever biological reason.
*snip*

Can you guys see the point I am trying to make here? I am trying to explain it as best as I can. Let me summarize: On one hand, people say gender and sex are completely different and have nothing to do with each other. Yet, 99% of people are "cisgender," which means that your gender and sex are the same thing. Can anyone solve this contradiction? I've been trying to for a while and I can't think of a good answer. This is why I'm asking you guys. As I said, I have no problem with trans people. I just feel like there is a big contradiction here with these definitions. I hope you guys can answer these questions for me. I've been driving myself nuts thinking about this.
The better question is why does it matter? Human identity is baselined. You have ye olde bell curve regarding identity. You'll have the general identification with a gender and then the standard deviations to the sides. Whether we call things sex, gender, is distracting and not recognizing what actually matters. And that is the appreciation for the fact that some individuals don't match up with the sex organs.

Sometimes we are obsessed with labeling stuff, to the point, it becomes a lot more important than the human aspect of it. We have males that like females, males that like males, males that don't think they are males and like females, males that don't think they are males and like males. And likewise with females. This is what is. Labels have become a distraction.
I do not feel that you have answered the question. Thank you for replying but I feel this does not address my point. I understand that people will do whatever makes them happy. I don't get mad when I see a trans woman or a trans man. I just have no idea what it's supposed to mean. Remember that even scientific literature now states that sex and gender are different. But, I do not feel that you or them have adequately explained why and how sex and gender are different.

Have you heard of David Reimer? He was born male and had a botched circumcision that severely in jured his penis. The psychologist John Money told his parents, "Since sex and gender are different, just raise him as a girl. It doesn't matter." Turns out he battled severe depression and committed suicide later in life. Tragic story. but since the psychologist felt that sex and gender had nothing to do with each other, he should've been perfectly fine being raised as a girl. It didn't work.

What do you think about this?
 

Politesse

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Hi I am new here but I have been reading for about a month. I hope this is the right forum for this because it has become a political issue. If it's the wrong forum, I apologize.

With that said, I am looking to see if any of you guys can help me understand sex and gender and transgender people because it has been driving me nuts when I think about it. I want to say first off that I have no problem with trans people. If someone wants to dress or act a certain way, that is fine by me. My issue is with the gender/sex subject.

I have been reading the subject and I hear, "Sex and gender are different. They have nothing to do with each other." This confuses me because people say around 99% of people are "cisgender", which means your gender and sex match. But how can gender and sex "match" if they have nothing to do with each other? Saying they match is implying that sex and gender are the same thing and there is a right way and a wrong way, yet people insist on saying they have nothing to do with each other. For example, if someone is a born male and identifies as a man, people say they are cisgender because their sex and gender match. This implies there is a right way to be male and a right way to be female. Otherwise, how can you say they match?

Transgender people are "people whose gender identity differs from their birth sex." But if sex and gender have nothing to do with each other, how can someone state that "my gender differs from my birth sex?" This implies that a person's gender should be the same as their birth sex. But, this is in direct contradiction to the fact that people say, "sex and gender are different and have nothing to do with each other." But for 99% of people, sex and gender are the same. For example, when people find out the sex of their baby, they say, "it's a boy" or "it's a girl." But how can they say this when they only know the baby's sex and not their gender? We are told that only the person themselves can decide what gender they are. So this implies parents should say, "I found out my baby will be born with a penis. But, I have no idea if it will be a boy or girl because they haven't decided their gender yet." Nobody says this. They all say "boy" or "girl" and give the baby "he" and "she" pronouns before they are even born. This implies sex and gender are the same thing. So if 99% of people are comfortable with their gender and sex being the same thing, how can people still claim gender and sex have nothing to do with each other?

So when trans women say, "I was assigned male at birth but I now identify as a woman," this implies that people who are assigned male at birth are supposed to identify as a man. But, how can this be if sex and gender have nothing to do with each other? If someone is assigned male at birth and identifies as a woman, how can this even be considered "transgender" if sex and gender are supposed to have nothing to do with each other? One can just as easily say, "I was born male and I identify as a man and I am transgender becuase sex and gender have nothing to do with each other. Being a man doesn't have anything to do with my penis." The term "transgender" implies that gender and sex should match each other. But if they match this implies gender and sex are the same thing despite the fact people say they are completely different.

Can you guys see the point I am trying to make here? I am trying to explain it as best as I can. Let me summarize: On one hand, people say gender and sex are completely different and have nothing to do with each other. Yet, 99% of people are "cisgender," which means that your gender and sex are the same thing. Can anyone solve this contradiction? I've been trying to for a while and I can't think of a good answer. This is why I'm asking you guys. As I said, I have no problem with trans people. I just feel like there is a big contradiction here with these definitions. I hope you guys can answer these questions for me. I've been driving myself nuts thinking about this.
Perhaps you could elucidate the source of all these quotations? They all sound iffy to me.

It isn't that sex and gender are unrelated, the general consensus of the social sciences is that gender is fundamentally a construction or portrayal of "appropriate" sex-linked behavior, disposition, and social status. Gender is, to put it another way, very much about sex. But as a social construct, it is not synonymous with biological sex. Your Y chromosome determines whether or not testes will develop. It does not determine whether you will like sports, excel at math, beat on women, or be naturally proficient at hunting. Those are cultural protrayals of maleness, not inherent qualities of being biologically male and we know this to a certainty partly because perspectives on gender vary by culture, and differ wildly between different cultures.

99% simply isn't correct. Self-declarations of gender aren't necessarily trustworthy where severe persecution meets those who confess to a non-cis gender identity , but in the US where trans identity is becoming more open, the number of openly trans people is rapidly increasingly, hovering somewhere around 4% at present and expected to continue to increase as oppression and violence decrease.

Transgender people generally consider themselves to have been misassigned a gender at birth, not that they are at odds with their genetic sex. Hence why a trans woman would correctly say "I was assigned male at birth", not "I was a male at birth".
 

Politesse

Lux Aeterna
Joined
Feb 27, 2018
Messages
9,665
Location
Chochenyo Territory, US
Gender
nb; all pronouns fine
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Jedi Wayseeker
First off, welcome aboard. Kittens are available in The Lounge.
Hi I am new here but I have been reading for about a month. I hope this is the right forum for this because it has become a political issue. If it's the wrong forum, I apologize.

With that said, I am looking to see if any of you guys can help me understand sex and gender and transgender people because it has been driving me nuts when I think about it. I want to say first off that I have no problem with trans people. If someone wants to dress or act a certain way, that is fine by me. My issue is with the gender/sex subject.
First criticism here is that term "want". It sounds nitpicky, but when someone says they "want" to dress or act a certain way that can be implied to mean it is more of a choice, than an identity, as in who they are. I don't want to find Asian women attractive, but I do for whatever biological reason.
*snip*

Can you guys see the point I am trying to make here? I am trying to explain it as best as I can. Let me summarize: On one hand, people say gender and sex are completely different and have nothing to do with each other. Yet, 99% of people are "cisgender," which means that your gender and sex are the same thing. Can anyone solve this contradiction? I've been trying to for a while and I can't think of a good answer. This is why I'm asking you guys. As I said, I have no problem with trans people. I just feel like there is a big contradiction here with these definitions. I hope you guys can answer these questions for me. I've been driving myself nuts thinking about this.
The better question is why does it matter? Human identity is baselined. You have ye olde bell curve regarding identity. You'll have the general identification with a gender and then the standard deviations to the sides. Whether we call things sex, gender, is distracting and not recognizing what actually matters. And that is the appreciation for the fact that some individuals don't match up with the sex organs.

Sometimes we are obsessed with labeling stuff, to the point, it becomes a lot more important than the human aspect of it. We have males that like females, males that like males, males that don't think they are males and like females, males that don't think they are males and like males. And likewise with females. This is what is. Labels have become a distraction.
I do not feel that you have answered the question. Thank you for replying but I feel this does not address my point. I understand that people will do whatever makes them happy. I don't get mad when I see a trans woman or a trans man. I just have no idea what it's supposed to mean. Remember that even scientific literature now states that sex and gender are different. But, I do not feel that you or them have adequately explained why and how sex and gender are different.
"Are different" does not mean the same thing as "have nothing to to with each other".
 

Generation55

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Messages
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Hi I am new here but I have been reading for about a month. I hope this is the right forum for this because it has become a political issue. If it's the wrong forum, I apologize.

With that said, I am looking to see if any of you guys can help me understand sex and gender and transgender people because it has been driving me nuts when I think about it. I want to say first off that I have no problem with trans people. If someone wants to dress or act a certain way, that is fine by me. My issue is with the gender/sex subject.

I have been reading the subject and I hear, "Sex and gender are different. They have nothing to do with each other." This confuses me because people say around 99% of people are "cisgender", which means your gender and sex match. But how can gender and sex "match" if they have nothing to do with each other? Saying they match is implying that sex and gender are the same thing and there is a right way and a wrong way, yet people insist on saying they have nothing to do with each other. For example, if someone is a born male and identifies as a man, people say they are cisgender because their sex and gender match. This implies there is a right way to be male and a right way to be female. Otherwise, how can you say they match?

Transgender people are "people whose gender identity differs from their birth sex." But if sex and gender have nothing to do with each other, how can someone state that "my gender differs from my birth sex?" This implies that a person's gender should be the same as their birth sex. But, this is in direct contradiction to the fact that people say, "sex and gender are different and have nothing to do with each other." But for 99% of people, sex and gender are the same. For example, when people find out the sex of their baby, they say, "it's a boy" or "it's a girl." But how can they say this when they only know the baby's sex and not their gender? We are told that only the person themselves can decide what gender they are. So this implies parents should say, "I found out my baby will be born with a penis. But, I have no idea if it will be a boy or girl because they haven't decided their gender yet." Nobody says this. They all say "boy" or "girl" and give the baby "he" and "she" pronouns before they are even born. This implies sex and gender are the same thing. So if 99% of people are comfortable with their gender and sex being the same thing, how can people still claim gender and sex have nothing to do with each other?

So when trans women say, "I was assigned male at birth but I now identify as a woman," this implies that people who are assigned male at birth are supposed to identify as a man. But, how can this be if sex and gender have nothing to do with each other? If someone is assigned male at birth and identifies as a woman, how can this even be considered "transgender" if sex and gender are supposed to have nothing to do with each other? One can just as easily say, "I was born male and I identify as a man and I am transgender becuase sex and gender have nothing to do with each other. Being a man doesn't have anything to do with my penis." The term "transgender" implies that gender and sex should match each other. But if they match this implies gender and sex are the same thing despite the fact people say they are completely different.

Can you guys see the point I am trying to make here? I am trying to explain it as best as I can. Let me summarize: On one hand, people say gender and sex are completely different and have nothing to do with each other. Yet, 99% of people are "cisgender," which means that your gender and sex are the same thing. Can anyone solve this contradiction? I've been trying to for a while and I can't think of a good answer. This is why I'm asking you guys. As I said, I have no problem with trans people. I just feel like there is a big contradiction here with these definitions. I hope you guys can answer these questions for me. I've been driving myself nuts thinking about this.
Perhaps you could elucidate the source of all these quotations? They all sound iffy to me.

It isn't that sex and gender are unrelated, the general consensus of the social sciences is that gender is fundamentally a construction or portrayal of "appropriate" sex-linked behavior, disposition, and social status. Gender is, to put it another way, very much about sex. But as a social construct, it is not synonymous with biological sex. Your Y chromosome determines whether or not testes will develop. It does not determine whether you will like sports, excel at math, beat on women, or be naturally proficient at hunting. Those are cultural protrayals of maleness, not inherent qualities of being biologically male and we know this to a certainty partly because perspectives on gender vary by culture, and differ wildly between different cultures.

99% simply isn't correct. Self-declarations of gender aren't necessarily trustworthy where severe persecution meets those who confess to a non-cis gender identity , but in the US where trans identity is becoming more open, the number of openly trans people is rapidly increasingly, hovering somewhere around 4% at present and expected to continue to increase as oppression and violence decrease.

Transgender people generally consider themselves to have been misassigned a gender at birth, not that they are at odds with their genetic sex. Hence why a trans woman would correctly say "I was assigned male at birth", not "I was a male at birth".

but I thought that sex and gender were different. If someone is assigned male at birth, then they are male, right? If their gender is "woman," then how were they misassigned? If the doctor said, "This is a boy"" then that would be misassigned. But, how can sex be misassigned? This is so confusing to me. I can't understand it and it frustrates me so much.
 

Generation55

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Hi I am new here but I have been reading for about a month. I hope this is the right forum for this because it has become a political issue. If it's the wrong forum, I apologize.

With that said, I am looking to see if any of you guys can help me understand sex and gender and transgender people because it has been driving me nuts when I think about it. I want to say first off that I have no problem with trans people. If someone wants to dress or act a certain way, that is fine by me. My issue is with the gender/sex subject.

I have been reading the subject and I hear, "Sex and gender are different. They have nothing to do with each other." This confuses me because people say around 99% of people are "cisgender", which means your gender and sex match. But how can gender and sex "match" if they have nothing to do with each other? Saying they match is implying that sex and gender are the same thing and there is a right way and a wrong way, yet people insist on saying they have nothing to do with each other. For example, if someone is a born male and identifies as a man, people say they are cisgender because their sex and gender match. This implies there is a right way to be male and a right way to be female. Otherwise, how can you say they match?

Transgender people are "people whose gender identity differs from their birth sex." But if sex and gender have nothing to do with each other, how can someone state that "my gender differs from my birth sex?" This implies that a person's gender should be the same as their birth sex. But, this is in direct contradiction to the fact that people say, "sex and gender are different and have nothing to do with each other." But for 99% of people, sex and gender are the same. For example, when people find out the sex of their baby, they say, "it's a boy" or "it's a girl." But how can they say this when they only know the baby's sex and not their gender? We are told that only the person themselves can decide what gender they are. So this implies parents should say, "I found out my baby will be born with a penis. But, I have no idea if it will be a boy or girl because they haven't decided their gender yet." Nobody says this. They all say "boy" or "girl" and give the baby "he" and "she" pronouns before they are even born. This implies sex and gender are the same thing. So if 99% of people are comfortable with their gender and sex being the same thing, how can people still claim gender and sex have nothing to do with each other?

So when trans women say, "I was assigned male at birth but I now identify as a woman," this implies that people who are assigned male at birth are supposed to identify as a man. But, how can this be if sex and gender have nothing to do with each other? If someone is assigned male at birth and identifies as a woman, how can this even be considered "transgender" if sex and gender are supposed to have nothing to do with each other? One can just as easily say, "I was born male and I identify as a man and I am transgender becuase sex and gender have nothing to do with each other. Being a man doesn't have anything to do with my penis." The term "transgender" implies that gender and sex should match each other. But if they match this implies gender and sex are the same thing despite the fact people say they are completely different.

Can you guys see the point I am trying to make here? I am trying to explain it as best as I can. Let me summarize: On one hand, people say gender and sex are completely different and have nothing to do with each other. Yet, 99% of people are "cisgender," which means that your gender and sex are the same thing. Can anyone solve this contradiction? I've been trying to for a while and I can't think of a good answer. This is why I'm asking you guys. As I said, I have no problem with trans people. I just feel like there is a big contradiction here with these definitions. I hope you guys can answer these questions for me. I've been driving myself nuts thinking about this.
Perhaps you could elucidate the source of all these quotations? They all sound iffy to me.

It isn't that sex and gender are unrelated, the general consensus of the social sciences is that gender is fundamentally a construction or portrayal of "appropriate" sex-linked behavior, disposition, and social status. Gender is, to put it another way, very much about sex. But as a social construct, it is not synonymous with biological sex. Your Y chromosome determines whether or not testes will develop. It does not determine whether you will like sports, excel at math, beat on women, or be naturally proficient at hunting. Those are cultural protrayals of maleness, not inherent qualities of being biologically male and we know this to a certainty partly because perspectives on gender vary by culture, and differ wildly between different cultures.

99% simply isn't correct. Self-declarations of gender aren't necessarily trustworthy where severe persecution meets those who confess to a non-cis gender identity , but in the US where trans identity is becoming more open, the number of openly trans people is rapidly increasingly, hovering somewhere around 4% at present and expected to continue to increase as oppression and violence decrease.

Transgender people generally consider themselves to have been misassigned a gender at birth, not that they are at odds with their genetic sex. Hence why a trans woman would correctly say "I was assigned male at birth", not "I was a male at birth".

I'm confused by this as well. I understand that it doesn't determine whether you like sports or math and whatnot. But, why do most men enjoy sports more than women? If gender was something that is more or less random, why don't we see more a higher percentage of men loving dolls and stereotypical women stuff and a higher percentage of women enjoying football and stereotypical guy stuff? Even young boys as young as 6 will say stuff to girls, "I don't play with dolls! That's for girls!" and girls would say, "Yuck football? That's for guys!" Why is this?

I just feel like if gender was more or less random, then we should have a similar percentage of guys walking around wearing dresses and skirts and make up and girls walking around wearing stereotypical male clothing. But there is a very high correlation that if you are born make, you won't be interested in dresses and make up and if you are born female, you won't be interested in male clothing and behavior. it should be more in the 50/50 range instead of 95/5 range or something like that. In my opinion, there would be nothing wrong if all males wore dresses and make up everywhere, but the question is, why don't more males do this? Why do most males view dresses and make up as a turn off for them to wear? Something just "feels off" to them about wearing that stuff. How can this be if it's there's not anything to this biologically?
 
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Jimmy Higgins

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I do not feel that you have answered the question. Thank you for replying but I feel this does not address my point. I understand that people will do whatever makes them happy.
Again, not about "happy", about who they are.
I don't get mad when I see a trans woman or a trans man.
Yet, for some reason you are having this conversation.

Oh, I'm totally cool with transgender... but
I just have no idea what it's supposed to mean. Remember that even scientific literature now states that sex and gender are different. But, I do not feel that you or them have adequately explained why and how sex and gender are different.
I don't feel a need to address it because it isn't important. What is important what an individual is in their mind. And you seem more interested in obfuscating the subject with labels. Labels are words that we provide things for identity. They don't have to have any viable meaning or usefulness in nature.
 
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