Charlottesville: video evidence that the alt-right attacked first

[ksen]

Lots of people are anti-fascist. A much smaller subset within that group is Antifa. Antifa wants us to believe that everyone who is anti-fascist is part of Antifa, but that is not true.

Sounds like a "yes".
Or maybe it's "No, only the anti-fascists who self identify as Antifa are on the same moral level with Nazis"?

Maybe you can clarify, or even define for us the difference between your garden-variety antifascist and the kind you despise?

Jason says lots of people are antifascist but I'm finding out there's a lot less than I thought.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Lots of people are anti-fascist. A much smaller subset within that group is Antifa. Antifa wants us to believe that everyone who is anti-fascist is part of Antifa, but that is not true.

So what? In Charlottesville it was nazis vs antifascists. Where is the moral ambiguity?

You seem more worried about the Antifa antifascists then about the nazis. Why is that?

I know how small the Nazis and white supremacists are. The SPLC, which has a vested interest in inflating the numbers as much as possible, puts them both down at less than 10,000.

Antifa is actually the growing group because of people not realizing that there is a distinction between being anti-fascist and joining the rival gang. It is also the group that gets more general public approval, even after their spectacular showing at Berkeley. C. S. Lewis, in the Screwtape Letters, described popular panic in an interesting way, describing people so afraid of fire that they are pouring water on everything while the ship is sinking, and so afraid of sinking they are bailing out the water while the ship is on fire.

Sounds like a "yes".
Or maybe it's "No, only the anti-fascists who self identify as Antifa are on the same moral level with Nazis"?

Maybe you can clarify, or even define for us the difference between your garden-variety antifascist and the kind you despise?

Jason says lots of people are antifascist but I'm finding out there's a lot less than I thought.

Careful with that. Saying "they have a right to speak too" is being considered pro-fascist, like the ACLU. Just because one doesn't wish to censor doesn't make one in favor of the material.

 

[ksen]

So what? In Charlottesville it was nazis vs antifascists. Where is the moral ambiguity?

You seem more worried about the Antifa antifascists then about the nazis. Why is that?

I know how small the Nazis and white supremacists are. The SPLC, which has a vested interest in inflating the numbers as much as possible, puts them both down at less than 10,000.

Antifa is actually the growing group because of people not realizing that there is a distinction between being anti-fascist and joining the rival gang. It is also the group that gets more general public approval, even after their spectacular showing at Berkeley. C. S. Lewis, in the Screwtape Letters, described popular panic in an interesting way, describing people so afraid of fire that they are pouring water on everything while the ship is sinking, and so afraid of sinking they are bailing out the water while the ship is on fire.

Sounds like a "yes".
Or maybe it's "No, only the anti-fascists who self identify as Antifa are on the same moral level with Nazis"?

Maybe you can clarify, or even define for us the difference between your garden-variety antifascist and the kind you despise?

Jason says lots of people are antifascist but I'm finding out there's a lot less than I thought.

Careful with that. Saying "they have a right to speak too" is being considered pro-fascist, like the ACLU. Just because one doesn't wish to censor doesn't make one in favor of the material.

I am being careful. I don't think you approve of the nazis. But you are morally equating them with the people standing up to them.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

I am being careful. I don't think you approve of the nazis. But you are morally equating them with the people standing up to them.

Only some of those who are standing against them. Most of those who oppose the Nazis are good. Some of them aren't. It is a mistake to think that some is good because right now they are on the same side as the most who are. When I hear calls for censorship, I'm not hearing the most but the some. That the calls for censorship are being taken seriously is why I worry about Antifa.

Consider what these calls for censorship mean, though. It means the government gets to decide what is hate speech. Who is the government right now? Donald Trump. Those calling for censorship are asking for Donald Trump to decide what speech is allowed and what speech is forbidden.

 

[Shadowy Man]

Tip: If you weren't so busy flinging around Seig heils! you'd probably realize that (almost) everyone thinks neo-Nazis are despicable

I wish the president was part of (almost) everyone.

No no. The right way to say it is: "With few exceptions, everyone thinks neo-Nazis are despicable."

- - - Updated - - -

Who is the government right now? Donald Trump.

Donald Trump is not the government.

 

[dismal]

Sounds like a "yes".
Or maybe it's "No, only the anti-fascists who self identify as Antifa are on the same moral level with Nazis"?

Maybe you can clarify, or even define for us the difference between your garden-variety antifascist and the kind you despise?

Jason says lots of people are antifascist but I'm finding out there's a lot less than I thought.

It's probably not fair to call all these leftists who are against free speech "fascists". I tend to think of them as misguided assholes. With totalitarian impulses.

 

[skepticalbip]

Lots of people are anti-fascist. A much smaller subset within that group is Antifa. Antifa wants us to believe that everyone who is anti-fascist is part of Antifa, but that is not true.

Sounds like a "yes".
Or maybe it's "No, only the anti-fascists who self identify as Antifa are on the same moral level with Nazis"?

Maybe you can clarify, or even define for us the difference between your garden-variety antifascist and the kind you despise?

To be honest, I don't really know what the antifa ideology is - if there is one. The impression I get from listening to them is that they believe they are being oppressed by business and government that is all run by white men. This being the case they have a visceral hatred of white men and an urge to destroy everything.

As a comparison, the neo-nazi ideology is a little better defined by them. They believe that they are being oppressed by business and government that is all run by Jews. This being the case they have a visceral hatred of Jews.

In effect, they both seem to have the same mentality - victim-hood and pure visceral hatred. The difference being in who they identify as the oppressor so who is the subject of their visceral hatred.

 

[ksen]

Sounds like a "yes".
Or maybe it's "No, only the anti-fascists who self identify as Antifa are on the same moral level with Nazis"?

Maybe you can clarify, or even define for us the difference between your garden-variety antifascist and the kind you despise?

To be honest, I don't really know what the antifa ideology is - if there is one. The impression I get from listening to them is that they believe they are being oppressed by business and government that is all run by white men. This being the case they have a visceral hatred of white men and an urge to destroy everything.

As a comparison, the neo-nazi ideology is a little better defined by them. They believe that they are being oppressed by business and government that is all run by Jews. This being the case they have a visceral hatred of Jews.

In effect, they both seem to have the same mentality - pure visceral hatred. The difference being in who they identify as the oppressor so who is the subject of their visceral hatred.

Then you have the wrong impression of what antifa is.

 

[skepticalbip]

To be honest, I don't really know what the antifa ideology is - if there is one. The impression I get from listening to them is that they believe they are being oppressed by business and government that is all run by white men. This being the case they have a visceral hatred of white men and an urge to destroy everything.

As a comparison, the neo-nazi ideology is a little better defined by them. They believe that they are being oppressed by business and government that is all run by Jews. This being the case they have a visceral hatred of Jews.

In effect, they both seem to have the same mentality - pure visceral hatred. The difference being in who they identify as the oppressor so who is the subject of their visceral hatred.

Then you have the wrong impression of what antifa is.

Great, then please tell me what their ideology is. I honestly want to know.

They don't seem to have a spokesperson so my impression comes from interviews with some of the activists.

 

[ksen]

Antifa's only ideology is to directly confront fascists. Antifa has no interest in pushing any governmental policy.

 

[skepticalbip]

Antifa's only ideology is to directly confront fascists. Antifa has no interest in pushing any governmental policy.

Thanks for the attempt but that doesn't really say anything other than I stated if, as I have been told in interviews, they identify fascists as white men who run the businesses and government that is oppressing them.

 

[ksen]

care to link the interviews? because everything I've read says they go after fascist groups that try to spread their message, i.e. neo-nazi groups holding rallies.

That's it.

Antifa leaves government and business protesting to other groups.

 

[Will Wiley]

Ok, I lied. I never intended to post the video.

Dear America,

Fuck you.

Fuck you for even giving a shit who attacked first. When there is a conflict between two sides, and you're trying to figure out which side to align with, the correct answer is not "Whichever side didn't attack first." If your answer is anything other than "Whichever side doesn't have fucking Nazis on it" then you are either a Nazi or a Nazi sympathizer.

Since there are a lot of white Americans on this forum, unfortunately I have to explicitly point out that Nazis are bad.

Sincerely,
Not a Nazi​

You sound like a Nazi. Are you sure you aren't one?

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Antifa's only ideology is to directly confront fascists. Antifa has no interest in pushing any governmental policy.

Yes, that is how it is advertised. I would like if it were true.

Fighting Nazis doesn’t make ‘antifa’ the good guys

Fighting Nazis is a good thing, but fighting Nazis doesn’t necessarily make you or your cause good. By my lights this is simply an obvious fact.

The greatest Nazi-killer of the 20th century was Josef Stalin. He also killed millions of his own people and terrorized, oppressed, enslaved or brutalized tens of millions more.

Nazism was evil. Soviet Communism was evil. It’s fine to believe that Nazism was more evil than Communism. That doesn’t make Communism good.

Yet confusion on this point poisoned politics in America and abroad for generations.

Part of the problem is psychological. There’s a natural tendency to think that when people, or movements, hate each other, it must be because they’re opposites. This assumption overlooks the fact that many — indeed, most — of the great conflicts and hatreds in human history are derived from what Sigmund Freud called the “narcissism of minor differences.”

Most tribal hatreds are between very similar groups. The European wars of religion were between peoples who often shared the same language and culture but differed on the correct way to practice the Christian faith. The Sunni-Shia split in the Muslim world is the source of great animosity between very similar peoples.

The young Communists and fascists fighting for power in the streets of 1920s Germany had far more in common with each other than they had with decent liberals or conservatives, as we understand those terms today.

This history is relevant today because of the depressingly idiotic argument about whether it’s OK to equate “antifa” — left-wing radicals — with the neo-Nazi and white supremacist rabble that recently descended on Charlottesville, Va. The president claims there were “very fine people” on both sides of the protest and that the “anti-fascist” radicals are equally blameworthy. He borrowed from Fox News’ Sean Hannity the bogus term “alt-left” to describe the antifa radicals.

The term is bogus because, unlike the alt-right, nobody calls themselves “the alt-left.” That’s too bad. One of the only nice things about the alt-right is that its leaders are honest about the fact that they want nothing to do with traditional American conservatism. Like the original Nazis, they seek to replace the traditional right with their racial hogwash.

The antifa crowd has a very similar agenda with regard to American liberalism. These goons and thugs oppose free speech, celebrate violence, despise dissent and have little use for anything else in the American political tradition. But many liberals, particularly in the media, are victims of the same kind of confusion that vexed so much of American liberalism in the 20th century. Because antifa suddenly has the (alt-)right enemies, they must be the good guys.

They’re not. And that’s why this debate is so toxically stupid. Fine, antifa isn’t as bad as the KKK. Who cares? Since when is being less bad than the Klan a major moral accomplishment?

In these tribal times, the impulse to support anyone who shares your enemies is powerful. But it’s a morally stunted reflex. This is America. You’re free to denounce totalitarians wherever you find them — even if they might hate the right people.

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPvN5o2aRNs[/youtube]

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

Antifa's only ideology is to directly confront fascists. Antifa has no interest in pushing any governmental policy.

I saw a news article on them. They seem oblivious and counterproductive.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Yes, that is how it is advertised. I would like if it were true.

It pretty much is. They don't have a coherent ideology beyond that because the only thing they really have in common is their opposition to fascism and/or Donald Trump and the fact that they're willing to consider these to be related things (I'm not convinced they're wrong, personally). It's not as if they have a coherent ideology you could even demonize; they don't care about anything except shutting down fascists and trumpanzees.

Your NY post editorial is cute and all, but Antifa has a LONG way to go before a comparison to Stalin's Russia even BEGINS to make sense. The worst you can say about antifa is that they're not interested in talking with Nazis and trumpsters because they do not believe that either group can actually be reasoned with. I'm not convinced they're wrong about that either.

 

[Jason Harvestdancer]

Yes, that is how it is advertised. I would like if it were true.

It pretty much is. They don't have a coherent ideology beyond that because the only thing they really have in common is their opposition to fascism and/or Donald Trump and the fact that they're willing to consider these to be related things (I'm not convinced they're wrong, personally). It's not as if they have a coherent ideology you could even demonize; they don't care about anything except shutting down fascists and trumpanzees.

I wish that were true, and that is what we are supposed to think.

Antifa Explained by Sargon of Akkad

 

[LordKiran]

It pretty much is. They don't have a coherent ideology beyond that because the only thing they really have in common is their opposition to fascism and/or Donald Trump and the fact that they're willing to consider these to be related things (I'm not convinced they're wrong, personally). It's not as if they have a coherent ideology you could even demonize; they don't care about anything except shutting down fascists and trumpanzees.

I wish that were true, and that is what we are supposed to think.

Antifa Explained by Sargon of Akkad

Sargon of Akkad is a glorified idealogue hack, his conclusions and opinions mean spit.

 

[blastula]

They do have ideology beyond antifascism. They don't only appear at "fascist" rallies. They support indigenous peoples, environmentalist, blm and occupy type of issues. You can read their own words here. It's Going Down - Anarchist News and Analysis

They appear very psyched about the aftermath of Charlottesville, unfortunately. They think they have won more supporters and feel energized. The Nazis are happy about the outcome too. The two groups feed off of each other. I wish they should just battledome it and leave everyone else out of it.

 

[ZiprHead]

Boston Alt-right rally
Alt-right attendees 20
Anti alt-right 20,000