"Christians" who don't believe in a physical resurrection....

[excreationist]

Can you question the Resurrection and still be a Christian?

The Resurrection is interpreted is the source of some of the deepest rifts in Christianity -- and a stumbling block for some Christians and more than a few skeptics.

www.ncronline.org

Did Jesus literally rise from the dead in a bodily resurrection, as many traditionalist and conservative Christians believe? Or was his rising a symbolic one, a restoration of his spirit of love and compassion to the world, as members of some more liberal brands of Christianity hold?​

​

......​

Retired Episcopal Bishop John Shelby Spong, best known for his famously liberal interpretation of Christianity, does not adhere to Rivett's literal view of the Resurrection. His 1995 book, Resurrection: Myth or Reality?, caused a dust-up when it asked, "Does Christianity fall unless a supernatural miracle can be established?"​

​

For Spong, 82, the answer is an emphatic no.​

​

"I don't think the Resurrection has anything to do with physical resuscitation," he said. "I think it means the life of Jesus was raised back into the life of God, not into the life of this world, and that it was out of this that his presence" -- not his body -- "was manifested to certain witnesses."​

The Baptist minister Martin Luther King Jr also didn't believe in a physical resurrection...

Though I believe I'm probably in a simulation I don't believe in miracles like the resurrection. I think stories of Jesus' resurrection could be based on mistaken identity.... e.g. in Mark 6:14 Herod thought that Jesus was John the Baptist back from the dead while others believed that Jesus was Elijah. That goes to show in the Bible that a person could be considered to be resurrected even if they looked different.

There is also this event where 6000 people believed they saw Jesus:

V: Jesus in Nairobi, Kenya, 1988

________________________________________________________________________ Compare the photos of Jesus and me to see the resemblance! My previous self, Jesus, was briefly sent to Earth in 1988 &#8211…

stigdragholm.wordpress.com

It doesn't look like Jesus in the photos but for the 500 witnesses there is no photo so we don't know whether it looked like Jesus either.

What do people think of "Christians" who don't believe in a physical resurrection? Do you like them more than normal Christians? Many Christians would believe that those who don't believe in a physical resurrection aren't saved....

 

[Politesse]

It is fairly clear to me that the accounts of the resurrected Jesus are accounts of visions. Bodies don't routinely walk through walls, get mistaken for the gardener, or fly into the stratosphere. I'm sure their authors thought of those visions as "real" - people in the ancient world often had markedly different perspectives on the material world and its relative importance in the grand scheme of things - but they were visions.

 

[excreationist]

It is fairly clear to me that the accounts of the resurrected Jesus are accounts of visions. Bodies don't routinely walk through walls, get mistaken for the gardener, or fly into the stratosphere. I'm sure their authors thought of those visions as "real" - people in the ancient world often had markedly different perspectives on the material world and its relative importance in the grand scheme of things - but they were visions.

The gardener and on the road to Emmaus could be mistaken identity because they didn't originally recognise "Jesus". The walking through walls happened in John which means it is less likely to be based on real events. In the story Jesus kind of breaks the fourth wall: "blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed". I think it was just a story rather than all of the disciples having the same vision.

BTW in Mark 6:14 Herod apparently believed that Jesus was John the Baptist without there having to be a vision.

As far as the sighting of the 500 goes, I think that could have happened like this event involving 6000 people:

V: Jesus in Nairobi, Kenya, 1988

________________________________________________________________________ Compare the photos of Jesus and me to see the resemblance! My previous self, Jesus, was briefly sent to Earth in 1988 &#8211…

stigdragholm.wordpress.com

Or do you think that hundreds of people all saw a similar vision?

 

[Politesse]

Group visions may seem a strange concept, but whatever you believe they are, they are not uncommon. I've witnessed similar things on many occasions at Pagan gatherings. People concinced, at least, that they are all witnessing the same spiritual being simultaneously.

 

[Learner]

Can you question the Resurrection and still be a Christian?

The Resurrection is interpreted is the source of some of the deepest rifts in Christianity -- and a stumbling block for some Christians and more than a few skeptics.

www.ncronline.org

Did Jesus literally rise from the dead in a bodily resurrection, as many traditionalist and conservative Christians believe? Or was his rising a symbolic one, a restoration of his spirit of love and compassion to the world, as members of some more liberal brands of Christianity hold?​

​

......​

Retired Episcopal Bishop John Shelby Spong, best known for his famously liberal interpretation of Christianity, does not adhere to Rivett's literal view of the Resurrection. His 1995 book, Resurrection: Myth or Reality?, caused a dust-up when it asked, "Does Christianity fall unless a supernatural miracle can be established?"​

​

For Spong, 82, the answer is an emphatic no.​

​

"I don't think the Resurrection has anything to do with physical resuscitation," he said. "I think it means the life of Jesus was raised back into the life of God, not into the life of this world, and that it was out of this that his presence" -- not his body -- "was manifested to certain witnesses."​

The Baptist minister Martin Luther King Jr also didn't believe in a physical resurrection...

Though I believe I'm probably in a simulation I don't believe in miracles like the resurrection. I think stories of Jesus' resurrection could be based on mistaken identity.... e.g. in Mark 6:14 Herod thought that Jesus was John the Baptist back from the dead while others believed that Jesus was Elijah. That goes to show in the Bible that a person could be considered to be resurrected even if they looked different.

There is also this event where 6000 people believed they saw Jesus:

V: Jesus in Nairobi, Kenya, 1988

________________________________________________________________________ Compare the photos of Jesus and me to see the resemblance! My previous self, Jesus, was briefly sent to Earth in 1988 &#8211…

stigdragholm.wordpress.com

It doesn't look like Jesus in the photos but for the 500 witnesses there is no photo so we don't know whether it looked like Jesus either.

What do people think of "Christians" who don't believe in a physical resurrection? Do you like them more than normal Christians? Many Christians would believe that those who don't believe in a physical resurrection aren't saved....

excreationist, being in a simulation... I would think in concept, ALL things miraculous could happen. A simulation of a ressurection in a simulated universe, seemingly a physical event, which would seem impossible to the minds of the simulated individuals - who would of course, come to that understanding of seemingly impossible, by having, and experiencing certain rules of "physical" restrictions that is applied to them.

No real physical boundries really. "Do you think that's air you are breathing?" Says Morpheus to Neo who thinks he is out of breath gasping air. But we can't believe that Jesus could do miracles or be ressurected in the matix context? I am assuming the physical ressurection or the impossibilty is still within the matrix parameters because you take to the idea that we ARE in the simulation.

 

[excreationist]

Group visions may seem a strange concept, but whatever you believe they are, they are not uncommon. I've witnessed similar things on many occasions at Pagan gatherings. People concinced, at least, that they are all witnessing the same spiritual being simultaneously.

There is the example of 6000 people believing they saw Jesus - more than ten times more than what it says in the Bible in 1 Corinthians 15:6....

V: Jesus in Nairobi, Kenya, 1988

________________________________________________________________________ Compare the photos of Jesus and me to see the resemblance! My previous self, Jesus, was briefly sent to Earth in 1988 &#8211…

stigdragholm.wordpress.com

Do you know of an example where many hundreds of people thought they saw a person but it was just a hallucination? If not then I'd say that possibility isn't as strong as my example of mistaken identity....

 

[Politesse]

Such issues usually come down to expresssions of one's own bias, don't they? Atheists generally insist and assume that all religious visions are hallucinations, regardless of whether there is any particular evidence to support that assumption. How would you delineate between an ecstatic vision and a hallucination, anyway? Medically speaking.

 

[excreationist]

..... How would you delineate between an ecstatic vision and a hallucination, anyway? Medically speaking.

I don't really know what visions are exactly but I don't think it would be likely to happen to more than five hundred people at once. Mistaken identity like with those 6000 would be far more likely.

 

[excreationist]

excreationist, being in a simulation... I would think in concept, ALL things miraculous could happen. A simulation of a ressurection in a simulated universe, seemingly a physical event, which would seem impossible to the minds of the simulated individuals - who would of course, come to that understanding of seemingly impossible, by having, and experiencing certain rules of "physical" restrictions that is applied to them.

No real physical boundries really. "Do you think that's air you are breathing?" Says Morpheus to Neo who thinks he is out of breath gasping air. But we can't believe that Jesus could do miracles or be ressurected in the matix context? I am assuming the physical ressurection or the impossibilty is still within the matrix parameters because you take to the idea that we ARE in the simulation.

A God without compelling evidence?

From the Godfellas episode of Futurama: "...Bender, being God isn't easy. If you do too much, people get dependent on you. And if you do nothing, they lose hope. You have to use a light touch like a safecracker or a pickpocket... When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done...

iidb.org

So I believe in a non-obvious intelligent force and that all evidence of the paranormal can always be explained by coincidence, delusion, hallucinations, or fraud.
Even if Jesus really did rise from the dead I think it would be almost impossible to convince skeptics of this - and that that was the intention of "God".

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Can you question the Resurrection and still be a Christian?

The Resurrection is interpreted is the source of some of the deepest rifts in Christianity -- and a stumbling block for some Christians and more than a few skeptics.

www.ncronline.org

Did Jesus literally rise from the dead in a bodily resurrection, as many traditionalist and conservative Christians believe? Or was his rising a symbolic one, a restoration of his spirit of love and compassion to the world, as members of some more liberal brands of Christianity hold?​

​

......​

Retired Episcopal Bishop John Shelby Spong, best known for his famously liberal interpretation of Christianity, does not adhere to Rivett's literal view of the Resurrection. His 1995 book, Resurrection: Myth or Reality?, caused a dust-up when it asked, "Does Christianity fall unless a supernatural miracle can be established?"​

​

For Spong, 82, the answer is an emphatic no.​

​

"I don't think the Resurrection has anything to do with physical resuscitation," he said. "I think it means the life of Jesus was raised back into the life of God, not into the life of this world, and that it was out of this that his presence" -- not his body -- "was manifested to certain witnesses."​

The Baptist minister Martin Luther King Jr also didn't believe in a physical resurrection...

Though I believe I'm probably in a simulation I don't believe in miracles like the resurrection. I think stories of Jesus' resurrection could be based on mistaken identity.... e.g. in Mark 6:14 Herod thought that Jesus was John the Baptist back from the dead while others believed that Jesus was Elijah. That goes to show in the Bible that a person could be considered to be resurrected even if they looked different.

There is also this event where 6000 people believed they saw Jesus:

V: Jesus in Nairobi, Kenya, 1988

________________________________________________________________________ Compare the photos of Jesus and me to see the resemblance! My previous self, Jesus, was briefly sent to Earth in 1988 &#8211…

stigdragholm.wordpress.com

It doesn't look like Jesus in the photos but for the 500 witnesses there is no photo so we don't know whether it looked like Jesus either.

What do people think of "Christians" who don't believe in a physical resurrection? Do you like them more than normal Christians? Many Christians would believe that those who don't believe in a physical resurrection aren't saved....

It seems to me that this resurrection-revisionism results from many Christians tacitly admitting that not only is a physical resurrection absurd, there's no physical evidence at all for it when there easily could be evidence for it. That key piece of physical evidence, the risen Christ, has been whisked away from us to some place in they sky where we cannot see him, or so we are told. Interpreting his resurrection as purely symbolic or "spiritual" is far less troublesome in that no actual tangible proof is required to believe it. To make these kinds of non-falsifiable claims safeguards them from tough scrutiny.

 

[Politesse]

Can you question the Resurrection and still be a Christian?

The Resurrection is interpreted is the source of some of the deepest rifts in Christianity -- and a stumbling block for some Christians and more than a few skeptics.

www.ncronline.org

Did Jesus literally rise from the dead in a bodily resurrection, as many traditionalist and conservative Christians believe? Or was his rising a symbolic one, a restoration of his spirit of love and compassion to the world, as members of some more liberal brands of Christianity hold?​

​

......​

Retired Episcopal Bishop John Shelby Spong, best known for his famously liberal interpretation of Christianity, does not adhere to Rivett's literal view of the Resurrection. His 1995 book, Resurrection: Myth or Reality?, caused a dust-up when it asked, "Does Christianity fall unless a supernatural miracle can be established?"​

​

For Spong, 82, the answer is an emphatic no.​

​

"I don't think the Resurrection has anything to do with physical resuscitation," he said. "I think it means the life of Jesus was raised back into the life of God, not into the life of this world, and that it was out of this that his presence" -- not his body -- "was manifested to certain witnesses."​

The Baptist minister Martin Luther King Jr also didn't believe in a physical resurrection...

Though I believe I'm probably in a simulation I don't believe in miracles like the resurrection. I think stories of Jesus' resurrection could be based on mistaken identity.... e.g. in Mark 6:14 Herod thought that Jesus was John the Baptist back from the dead while others believed that Jesus was Elijah. That goes to show in the Bible that a person could be considered to be resurrected even if they looked different.

There is also this event where 6000 people believed they saw Jesus:

V: Jesus in Nairobi, Kenya, 1988

________________________________________________________________________ Compare the photos of Jesus and me to see the resemblance! My previous self, Jesus, was briefly sent to Earth in 1988 &#8211…

stigdragholm.wordpress.com

It doesn't look like Jesus in the photos but for the 500 witnesses there is no photo so we don't know whether it looked like Jesus either.

What do people think of "Christians" who don't believe in a physical resurrection? Do you like them more than normal Christians? Many Christians would believe that those who don't believe in a physical resurrection aren't saved....

It seems to me that this resurrection-revisionism results from many Christians tacitly admitting that not only is a physical resurrection absurd, there's no physical evidence at all for it when there easily could be evidence for it. That key piece of physical evidence, the risen Christ, has been whisked away from us to some place in they sky where we cannot see him, or so we are told. Interpreting his resurrection as purely symbolic or "spiritual" is far less troublesome in that no actual tangible proof is required to believe it. To make these kinds of non-falsifiable claims safeguards them from tough scrutiny.

Hardly a new idea. Gnosticism is one of the oldest schools of Christian thought, much older than textual literalism.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

It seems to me that this resurrection-revisionism results from many Christians tacitly admitting that not only is a physical resurrection absurd, there's no physical evidence at all for it when there easily could be evidence for it. That key piece of physical evidence, the risen Christ, has been whisked away from us to some place in they sky where we cannot see him, or so we are told. Interpreting his resurrection as purely symbolic or "spiritual" is far less troublesome in that no actual tangible proof is required to believe it. To make these kinds of non-falsifiable claims safeguards them from tough scrutiny.

Hardly a new idea. Gnosticism is one of the oldest schools of Christian thought, much older than textual literalism.

I have no idea what this has to do with what I said.

 

[Politesse]

It seems to me that this resurrection-revisionism results from many Christians tacitly admitting that not only is a physical resurrection absurd, there's no physical evidence at all for it when there easily could be evidence for it. That key piece of physical evidence, the risen Christ, has been whisked away from us to some place in they sky where we cannot see him, or so we are told. Interpreting his resurrection as purely symbolic or "spiritual" is far less troublesome in that no actual tangible proof is required to believe it. To make these kinds of non-falsifiable claims safeguards them from tough scrutiny.

Hardly a new idea. Gnosticism is one of the oldest schools of Christian thought, much older than textual literalism.

I have no idea what this has to do with what I said.

i.e., people have believed in a non-physical ressurection for a very long time, it is not a response to modernist critique, at least not exclusively. The earliest Christians likely believed that Jesus had transcended materiality altogether on the cross. If you believe that all matter is evil, the idea that being bodily resurrected is superior to becoming pure spirit would be an alien and alienating thought. Jesus had returned to the "fullness", and no longer had need of the wicked cage that is flesh.

 

[excreationist]

i.e., people have believed in a non-physical ressurection for a very long time, it is not a response to modernist critique, at least not exclusively. The earliest Christians likely believed that Jesus had transcended materiality altogether on the cross....

It seems the earliest surviving Christian writings were from Paul and it seems he believed in a physical resurrection....

Early Christian Writings: New Testament, Apocrypha, Gnostics, Church Fathers

e.g.
1 Corinthians 15:12-14

But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.​

Romans 10:9

If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.​

It seems gnostic writings were generally more recent...

Gnostics, Gnostic Gospels, & Gnosticism

Gnostics, Gnostic, & Gnosticism: Includes the gnostic gospels and information on gnostic Christianity and the religion of Gnosticism!

earlychristianwritings.com

 

[Politesse]

Your quote, taken from a letter considered easily one of the earliest of Christian writings, establishes that at last some of the Christians in Corinth did not in fact believe in a physical resurrection. And Paul himself, though he disagreed with them, may not have meant a strictly bodily resuscitation. Elsewhere in the same letter, he insists that his vision of Christ on the road to Emmaeus elevates him to the same status as the disciples. Why? Why would having a vision of the risen Christ be the equivalent of seeing him "in the flesh"? A person who has ascended to the Fullness may assume human form if they like, but they are no longer bound to it. It was Platonist, not Aristotelian, thinking about the natuer of matter that dominated Mediterranean culture in those days.

 

[excreationist]

@Politesse
BTW the following verses also involve a physical resurrection - at least from their point of view.... and I don't think it requires a vision....

Mark 6:14-16

King Herod heard about this, for Jesus’ name had become well known. Some were saying, “John the Baptist has been raised from the dead, and that is why miraculous powers are at work in him.”​

​

Others said, “He is Elijah.”​

​

And still others claimed, “He is a prophet, like one of the prophets of long ago.”​

​

But when Herod heard this, he said, “John, whom I beheaded, has been raised from the dead!”​

 

[Politesse]

What is the basis on which you interpret the point of view of the persons in that passage?

 

[excreationist]

What is the basis on which you interpret the point of view of the persons in that passage?

Herod apparently said that John the Baptist has been raised from the dead in the form of Jesus so that is his view....

 

[Politesse]

What is the basis on which you interpret the point of view of the persons in that passage?

Herod apparently said that John the Baptist has been raised from the dead in the form of Jesus so that is his view....

Yes, but what does that mean? Whether resurrection is our fate is not in question, now or then. What the OP is boggling at is a conception of resurrection as being more so spiritual than it is a physical resuscitation of your old body as per, say, a zombie. But that idea is not new, and that's my only point here. I note that one of the characters' proposed explanations was that Jesus might be Elijah. If you believe the Hebrew Scriptures, then you wouldn't call that a physical resuscitation either, as Elijah never died in the first place. Spong and King both believed in the "new life" promised by Christ, they just don't think of that life as being defined as new air getting stuffed into the same old meat sack.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

i.e., people have believed in a non-physical ressurection for a very long time, it is not a response to modernist critique, at least not exclusively. The earliest Christians likely believed that Jesus had transcended materiality altogether on the cross. If you believe that all matter is evil, the idea that being bodily resurrected is superior to becoming pure spirit would be an alien and alienating thought. Jesus had returned to the "fullness", and no longer had need of the wicked cage that is flesh.

I don't know what people you are referring to, but all four Gospel writers refer to a bodily resurrection of Christ. Also, my critique of the spiritual-resurrection doctrine is not merely "modernist" but is logically valid for all times. I'm not sure what you mean by "transcended materiality," but we read that Christ's lifeless body was taken down from the cross and entombed. To do so would be very difficult if it had departed the material world. Besides, we read that Jesus and his closest followers preached much "alien and alienating thought" so I see no reason why they could not entertain thoughts of a bodily death and resurrection of Christ. Finally, I know of no evidence that Christ or the early Christian sect thought that "all matter is evil."

Anyway, although I cannot read minds, it seems reasonable to me that many Christians throughout history have found the idea of a "spiritual" resurrection of Christ to be appealing considering that it skirts the obvious question: If Christ was raised from the grave, then where is he? A Christ who died and stayed dead fits the facts much better than a bodily risen Christ. Dead people disappear from view just like Jesus evidently did, but a risen spirit, being invisible, can also fit the facts because we can't see spirits. So to save the dogma of the resurrection, a spiritual resurrection works nicely being conveniently unfalsifiable.