Split City Vs Country Politics

[Toni]

I can't believe Trump lied to us.

Paraphrasing here, but really... I'm glad at maybe a epiphany occurred, but seriously, fuck you.

Well, what do we expect? Lots and I do mean LOTS of oh so smugly superior progressives think that working class people and those living in rural areas and flyover zones really don't count for much. They're just a bunch of bumpkins with bad clothes and worse tats, overweight, bad hair and bad teeth and no prospects. They only count to serve their betters...whatever their betters deserve.

I am really really really serious that those are the people I grew up surrounded by and today, if my car broke down in the county I grew up in, I could walk to the door of the nearest house and they'd help me out, probably invite me to dinner. Maybe even fix my car for me. Even if they had been reading my facebook page for the past 6 years or so. They are decent people who have worked hard all their lives without much pay, and without a lot of chances. They have bigotries and prejudices as do all of us if we are actually even a little bit honest with ourselves. They see value in their jobs, producing your food, packaging your food, making whatever it is you are using in your house that wasn't made overseas. They see value in their lives and in their hopes and dreams.

Shame on us if we can't or won't.

 

[starwater]

I can't believe Trump lied to us.

Paraphrasing here, but really... I'm glad at maybe a epiphany occurred, but seriously, fuck you.

Well, what do we expect? Lots and I do mean LOTS of oh so smugly superior progressives think that working class people and those living in rural areas and flyover zones really don't count for much. They're just a bunch of bumpkins with bad clothes and worse tats, overweight, bad hair and bad teeth and no prospects. They only count to serve their betters...whatever their betters deserve.

I am really really really serious that those are the people I grew up surrounded by and today, if my car broke down in the county I grew up in, I could walk to the door of the nearest house and they'd help me out, probably invite me to dinner. Maybe even fix my car for me. Even if they had been reading my facebook page for the past 6 years or so. They are decent people who have worked hard all their lives without much pay, and without a lot of chances. They have bigotries and prejudices as do all of us if we are actually even a little bit honest with ourselves. They see value in their jobs, producing your food, packaging your food, making whatever it is you are using in your house that wasn't made overseas. They see value in their lives and in their hopes and dreams.

Shame on us if we can't or won't.

I was totally lied to in a business venture years ago. The guy not so much as lied - but withheld information so it seemed like he wasn't lying. Anyway as soon as I figured it out (it took me awhile), I cut ties.

I can see people wanting to believe the horseshit Trump was feeding them on a daily basis and get caught up in the frenzy. Some are good hard working people, I deal with them all the time. It's what you do when you have an epiphany.

Who here has not been lied to and believed it?

 

[laughing dog]

I can't believe Trump lied to us.

Paraphrasing here, but really... I'm glad at maybe a epiphany occurred, but seriously, fuck you.

Well, what do we expect? Lots and I do mean LOTS of oh so smugly superior progressives think that working class people and those living in rural areas and flyover zones really don't count for much. They're just a bunch of bumpkins with bad clothes and worse tats, overweight, bad hair and bad teeth and no prospects. They only count to serve their betters...whatever their betters deserve.

I am really really really serious that those are the people I grew up surrounded by and today, if my car broke down in the county I grew up in, I could walk to the door of the nearest house and they'd help me out, probably invite me to dinner. Maybe even fix my car for me. Even if they had been reading my facebook page for the past 6 years or so. They are decent people who have worked hard all their lives without much pay, and without a lot of chances. They have bigotries and prejudices as do all of us if we are actually even a little bit honest with ourselves. They see value in their jobs, producing your food, packaging your food, making whatever it is you are using in your house that wasn't made overseas. They see value in their lives and in their hopes and dreams.

Shame on us if we can't or won't.

Shame on them if they don't repudiate Trump now.

 

[Toni]

I can't believe Trump lied to us.

Paraphrasing here, but really... I'm glad at maybe a epiphany occurred, but seriously, fuck you.

Well, what do we expect? Lots and I do mean LOTS of oh so smugly superior progressives think that working class people and those living in rural areas and flyover zones really don't count for much. They're just a bunch of bumpkins with bad clothes and worse tats, overweight, bad hair and bad teeth and no prospects. They only count to serve their betters...whatever their betters deserve.

I am really really really serious that those are the people I grew up surrounded by and today, if my car broke down in the county I grew up in, I could walk to the door of the nearest house and they'd help me out, probably invite me to dinner. Maybe even fix my car for me. Even if they had been reading my facebook page for the past 6 years or so. They are decent people who have worked hard all their lives without much pay, and without a lot of chances. They have bigotries and prejudices as do all of us if we are actually even a little bit honest with ourselves. They see value in their jobs, producing your food, packaging your food, making whatever it is you are using in your house that wasn't made overseas. They see value in their lives and in their hopes and dreams.

Shame on us if we can't or won't.

Shame on them if they don't repudiate Trump now.

We have got to give them space to do that.

 

[Toni]

I don’t think that the guy from Ohio as less intelligent but I do think that he hasn’t seen much that gives him hope his kids will have a better life, or that he is valued as a citizen.

He had a good job, was a manager at a company that made stuff (cabinets), had friends, family and most of the things that people say they want. As he said, just a normal family man. I think he had what 99+% of all humans on this planet WISH they had.

But someone convinced him that he deserved more, and that the "more" he deserved was being stolen from him.
IOW, Trump tapped into his primal greed like he did/does to so many others. Holds himself up as an example - "All you have to do is be totally strong, and fight for what you deserve like I do." Not mentioned of course, is how helpful it is to first inherit $400,000,000 or so to help you "fight".
I do feel sorry for him, but also feel like he should be held up as an example of what happens to you if you are a trumpsucker. It was good IMO to hear about his life after 1/6. It would make a classic country song, losing his job and his former life... don't know about his dog but that would be a good add if he lost that too.
It's sad, but I don't hold him harmless - far from it.

We have got to give them space to do that.

I don't think we owe them "space" or anything else. They need to "summon the courage to do the right thing", to borrow a phrase from their mango model. If they won't or don't, they fucking DESERVE to lose it all.

Nobody likes it when they are being looked down upon.

And that's what a lot of urbanites and so called progressives do with regards to people who are in small towns, rural areas, manufacturing.

Believe it or not, it is possible to disagree with someone without thinking they are stupid or ignorant.

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I've been looking for a common aspect in people that explains Orange's appeal. Country Bumpkinism certainly isn't it, not even close. Ideology certainly isn't it. Wanting to maintain my white privilege certainly isn't it. Anti-immigration certainly isn't it. Greed certainly isn't it although I think that's right up there as close to the top as you can get without being number one. Dishonesty certainly isn't it although this one would also be near the top because so many of his supporters are cheaters and liars who want to get away with crime because they've been ever so neglected, poor dears, and deserve better. Anti- abortion certainly isn't it. Fidelity certainly isn't it. Religion isn't it by a long shot.

What unites Orange's supplicants is a desire for authoritarianism. They don't want democracy, they want power and control and are not interested in sharing freedom. They see themselves as Orange. They do not understand what a democratic republic is and do not accept that someone else's vote should count as much as their own. They want to win every time the game is played and if they don't win then they were cheated. They are very poor losers because they are very poor observers. They share an inferiority complex and a superiority complex and would score very high on Dunning Kruger because they think they are much smarter than they are.

Exactly!

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I can't believe Trump lied to us.

Paraphrasing here, but really... I'm glad at maybe a epiphany occurred, but seriously, fuck you.

Well, what do we expect? Lots and I do mean LOTS of oh so smugly superior progressives think that working class people and those living in rural areas and flyover zones really don't count for much. They're just a bunch of bumpkins with bad clothes and worse tats, overweight, bad hair and bad teeth and no prospects. They only count to serve their betters...whatever their betters deserve.

I am really really really serious that those are the people I grew up surrounded by and today, if my car broke down in the county I grew up in, I could walk to the door of the nearest house and they'd help me out, probably invite me to dinner. Maybe even fix my car for me. Even if they had been reading my facebook page for the past 6 years or so. They are decent people who have worked hard all their lives without much pay, and without a lot of chances. They have bigotries and prejudices as do all of us if we are actually even a little bit honest with ourselves. They see value in their jobs, producing your food, packaging your food, making whatever it is you are using in your house that wasn't made overseas. They see value in their lives and in their hopes and dreams.

Shame on us if we can't or won't.

The other issue here is that there is a lot of anger and bitterness that was astroturfed by the media they swallow. They are angry at people they have no reason to be angry at. They are bitter that things are changing in a way that is unfamiliar to them. They think they are the only one's whose suffering matters.

 

[Toni]

I can't believe Trump lied to us.

Paraphrasing here, but really... I'm glad at maybe a epiphany occurred, but seriously, fuck you.

Well, what do we expect? Lots and I do mean LOTS of oh so smugly superior progressives think that working class people and those living in rural areas and flyover zones really don't count for much. They're just a bunch of bumpkins with bad clothes and worse tats, overweight, bad hair and bad teeth and no prospects. They only count to serve their betters...whatever their betters deserve.

I am really really really serious that those are the people I grew up surrounded by and today, if my car broke down in the county I grew up in, I could walk to the door of the nearest house and they'd help me out, probably invite me to dinner. Maybe even fix my car for me. Even if they had been reading my facebook page for the past 6 years or so. They are decent people who have worked hard all their lives without much pay, and without a lot of chances. They have bigotries and prejudices as do all of us if we are actually even a little bit honest with ourselves. They see value in their jobs, producing your food, packaging your food, making whatever it is you are using in your house that wasn't made overseas. They see value in their lives and in their hopes and dreams.

Shame on us if we can't or won't.

The other issue here is that there is a lot of anger and bitterness that was astroturfed by the media they swallow. They are angry at people they have no reason to be angry at. They are bitter that things are changing in a way that is unfamiliar to them. They think they are the only one's whose suffering matters.

‘They’ applies to both sides.

 

[Toni]

I don’t think that the guy from Ohio as less intelligent but I do think that he hasn’t seen much that gives him hope his kids will have a better life, or that he is valued as a citizen.

He had a good job, was a manager at a company that made stuff (cabinets), had friends, family and most of the things that people say they want. As he said, just a normal family man. I think he had what 99+% of all humans on this planet WISH they had.

But someone convinced him that he deserved more, and that the "more" he deserved was being stolen from him.
IOW, Trump tapped into his primal greed like he did/does to so many others. Holds himself up as an example - "All you have to do is be totally strong, and fight for what you deserve like I do." Not mentioned of course, is how helpful it is to first inherit $400,000,000 or so to help you "fight".
I do feel sorry for him, but also feel like he should be held up as an example of what happens to you if you are a trumpsucker. It was good IMO to hear about his life after 1/6. It would make a classic country song, losing his job and his former life... don't know about his dog but that would be a good add if he lost that too.
It's sad, but I don't hold him harmless - far from it.

We have got to give them space to do that.

I don't think we owe them "space" or anything else. They need to "summon the courage to do the right thing", to borrow a phrase from their mango model. If they won't or don't, they fucking DESERVE to lose it all.

Nobody likes it when they are being looked down upon.

Funny... because these people love Trump because he looks down at all others.

And that's what a lot of urbanites and so called progressives do with regards to people who are in small towns, rural areas, manufacturing.

Funny... because I have a college degree so I'm considered by 'these people' to not "work hard" for a living.

Believe it or not, it is possible to disagree with someone without thinking they are stupid or ignorant.

Intelligence seems to come with a pair of components: partisan and all-purpose. The people supporting Trump could be very smart all-purpose wise, but when it comes to partisan intelligence, they are bitter troglodytes.

Finally, the people that invaded the Capitol were largely middle to lower-upper class management folks. Not people that are laborers, they couldn't just take the time off.

Yes—small town/country folks ‘look down’ on city folk as much as city folk look down on country folk—but in a bitter sweet way: their kids get a fancy college degree and leave the farm/small town. They worry their kids will look down on them—and they worry the grandkids won’t know where food comes from or how to repair a garment or a kitchen faucet or change a tire. They’re proud of their kids’ success and feel their way of life not just slipping away but being subsumed by anonymous city life.

You feel that country folks look down on you as lazy for having a degree? Probably not as much as a lot of college educated people look down on farmers and factory workers and small town anything, including small town doctors and lawyers.

 

[Gun Nut]

I can't believe Trump lied to us.

Paraphrasing here, but really... I'm glad at maybe a epiphany occurred, but seriously, fuck you.

Well, what do we expect? Lots and I do mean LOTS of oh so smugly superior progressives think that working class people and those living in rural areas and flyover zones really don't count for much. They're just a bunch of bumpkins with bad clothes and worse tats, overweight, bad hair and bad teeth and no prospects. They only count to serve their betters...whatever their betters deserve.

I am really really really serious that those are the people I grew up surrounded by and today, if my car broke down in the county I grew up in, I could walk to the door of the nearest house and they'd help me out, probably invite me to dinner. Maybe even fix my car for me. Even if they had been reading my facebook page for the past 6 years or so. They are decent people who have worked hard all their lives without much pay, and without a lot of chances. They have bigotries and prejudices as do all of us if we are actually even a little bit honest with ourselves. They see value in their jobs, producing your food, packaging your food, making whatever it is you are using in your house that wasn't made overseas. They see value in their lives and in their hopes and dreams.

Shame on us if we can't or won't.

Shame on them if they don't repudiate Trump now.

At some point the "poor victims of society" need to nut up, put their big boy pants on, and admit they were duped by a criminal cult leader. Or, they prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they indeed are nothing but "flyover toothless, ineducable, morons that do not deserve an ounce of consideration... or as Hillary prematurely put it, "deplorables".

 

[Politesse]

Having lived in both environs for many years, I would say that the light disdain some urbanites have for the countryside pales in comparison to the all-consuming rage rural Republicans harbor for the people of the city, especially non-white or non-Christian people in the city. I grew up in a town of 2,000 in the fruitbasket of the American US. Most of my neighbors here in Fremont, a sizeable city attached to the greater San Francisco/San Jose metropolitan region, have no idea where my hometown is when I tell them (though it is only sixty miles away) and would certainly never go to a little town like that voluntarily. They came to this country to escape places like that. A bit insulting, to be sure, and there are times, especially at church, that I'm made to feel like a bit of hick on account of my origins. But if I were to go back home, and if I were to drop by Cathy's Coffeeshop down the street from where I grew up, and introduce myself to the guys at the bar as a bisexual San Franciscan? I'm pretty sure I'd be in actual danger, especially if I kept trying to come around or enrolled my kids at the elementary. Not sure whether the inevitable bar fight over some damn thing or the inevitable visit from the CPS would come first. The same kind of violent threat to the well being of one's fellow-citizens does not exist in the other direction.

Anyways, city people being "mean" to the people of the soil is not why all these people marched on the capital. Their xenophobia, religious zealotry, and class frustrations stem from much deeper roots than some rude tweets about flyover country. I know liberals excel at self-doubt, but you can't just accept Republican criticisms of "elite" society, when they are only half-genuine, and mask the bloodsoaked designs the alt-right truly has for this country.

 

[Gun Nut]

I don’t think that the guy from Ohio as less intelligent but I do think that he hasn’t seen much that gives him hope his kids will have a better life, or that he is valued as a citizen.

He had a good job, was a manager at a company that made stuff (cabinets), had friends, family and most of the things that people say they want. As he said, just a normal family man. I think he had what 99+% of all humans on this planet WISH they had.

But someone convinced him that he deserved more, and that the "more" he deserved was being stolen from him.
IOW, Trump tapped into his primal greed like he did/does to so many others. Holds himself up as an example - "All you have to do is be totally strong, and fight for what you deserve like I do." Not mentioned of course, is how helpful it is to first inherit $400,000,000 or so to help you "fight".
I do feel sorry for him, but also feel like he should be held up as an example of what happens to you if you are a trumpsucker. It was good IMO to hear about his life after 1/6. It would make a classic country song, losing his job and his former life... don't know about his dog but that would be a good add if he lost that too.
It's sad, but I don't hold him harmless - far from it.

We have got to give them space to do that.

I don't think we owe them "space" or anything else. They need to "summon the courage to do the right thing", to borrow a phrase from their mango model. If they won't or don't, they fucking DESERVE to lose it all.

Nobody likes it when they are being looked down upon.

Funny... because these people love Trump because he looks down at all others.

And that's what a lot of urbanites and so called progressives do with regards to people who are in small towns, rural areas, manufacturing.

Funny... because I have a college degree so I'm considered by 'these people' to not "work hard" for a living.

Believe it or not, it is possible to disagree with someone without thinking they are stupid or ignorant.

Intelligence seems to come with a pair of components: partisan and all-purpose. The people supporting Trump could be very smart all-purpose wise, but when it comes to partisan intelligence, they are bitter troglodytes.

Finally, the people that invaded the Capitol were largely middle to lower-upper class management folks. Not people that are laborers, they couldn't just take the time off.

Yes—small town/country folks ‘look down’ on city folk as much as city folk look down on country folk—but in a bitter sweet way: their kids get a fancy college degree and leave the farm/small town. They worry their kids will look down on them—and they worry the grandkids won’t know where food comes from or how to repair a garment or a kitchen faucet or change a tire. They’re proud of their kids’ success and feel their way of life not just slipping away but being subsumed by anonymous city life.

You feel that country folks look down on you as lazy for having a degree? Probably not as much as a lot of college educated people look down on farmers and factory workers and small town anything, including small town doctors and lawyers.

The fantasy that "city folk just don't get it" is false. Just like how Atheists tend to know MUCH more about Bibles and religious history than "blind believers" of their religion, College educated folk have far more awareness of how the food supply works in America (scientifically, economically, morally, etc..) than college-age farm-hands that got homeschooled and never intend to leave the family farm.
Meanwhilst, back at the farm, those are the people that have no clue what city life is like and what anyone else in the world does to contribute to society, outside of where their corn goes... while they operate their tractors, designed and built by engineers, and consume the internet - completely incapable of understanding social dynamics outside their local church group.

 

[Politesse]

Also, I highly doubt that any of these protestors were "farmers", a rapidly shrinking class of folks who have a lot more urgent tasks to attend to than marching on the Capitol. They may have come from towns that had farms around them, but I doubt that many of them have spent any more time on a farm than I did growing up. Factory workers, yes. But Mexicans work the fields, at least the jobs that haven't been replaced by machinery. Even the poorest of whites think they are way to good for picking, so they go for factory, retail, or warehouse jobs, even if they have to wait years cruising on government welfare to find one. You do not find them waiting in front of the Family Dollar in the morning looking for picking work... no, no. They'll claim this is because of racism on the part of the farm owners, but aren't the "farmers" the ones who are supposedly the Trumpers in this proposed scenario?

 

[Jimmy Higgins]

I can't believe Trump lied to us.

Paraphrasing here, but really... I'm glad at maybe a epiphany occurred, but seriously, fuck you.

Well, what do we expect? Lots and I do mean LOTS of oh so smugly superior progressives think that working class people and those living in rural areas and flyover zones really don't count for much. They're just a bunch of bumpkins with bad clothes and worse tats, overweight, bad hair and bad teeth and no prospects. They only count to serve their betters...whatever their betters deserve.

I am really really really serious that those are the people I grew up surrounded by and today, if my car broke down in the county I grew up in, I could walk to the door of the nearest house and they'd help me out, probably invite me to dinner. Maybe even fix my car for me. Even if they had been reading my facebook page for the past 6 years or so. They are decent people who have worked hard all their lives without much pay, and without a lot of chances. They have bigotries and prejudices as do all of us if we are actually even a little bit honest with ourselves. They see value in their jobs, producing your food, packaging your food, making whatever it is you are using in your house that wasn't made overseas. They see value in their lives and in their hopes and dreams.

Shame on us if we can't or won't.

The other issue here is that there is a lot of anger and bitterness that was astroturfed by the media they swallow. They are angry at people they have no reason to be angry at. They are bitter that things are changing in a way that is unfamiliar to them. They think they are the only one's whose suffering matters.

‘They’ applies to both sides.

Some of it, in parts, some of it, completely disagree. Liberals generally have a much broader circle of things or people that matter, where as conservatives are typically more constrained in that circle. Gay rights only matter once a conservative has a gay cousin or son/daughter.

I don’t think that the guy from Ohio as less intelligent but I do think that he hasn’t seen much that gives him hope his kids will have a better life, or that he is valued as a citizen.

He had a good job, was a manager at a company that made stuff (cabinets), had friends, family and most of the things that people say they want. As he said, just a normal family man. I think he had what 99+% of all humans on this planet WISH they had.

But someone convinced him that he deserved more, and that the "more" he deserved was being stolen from him.
IOW, Trump tapped into his primal greed like he did/does to so many others. Holds himself up as an example - "All you have to do is be totally strong, and fight for what you deserve like I do." Not mentioned of course, is how helpful it is to first inherit $400,000,000 or so to help you "fight".
I do feel sorry for him, but also feel like he should be held up as an example of what happens to you if you are a trumpsucker. It was good IMO to hear about his life after 1/6. It would make a classic country song, losing his job and his former life... don't know about his dog but that would be a good add if he lost that too.
It's sad, but I don't hold him harmless - far from it.

We have got to give them space to do that.

I don't think we owe them "space" or anything else. They need to "summon the courage to do the right thing", to borrow a phrase from their mango model. If they won't or don't, they fucking DESERVE to lose it all.

Nobody likes it when they are being looked down upon.

Funny... because these people love Trump because he looks down at all others.

And that's what a lot of urbanites and so called progressives do with regards to people who are in small towns, rural areas, manufacturing.

Funny... because I have a college degree so I'm considered by 'these people' to not "work hard" for a living.

Believe it or not, it is possible to disagree with someone without thinking they are stupid or ignorant.

Intelligence seems to come with a pair of components: partisan and all-purpose. The people supporting Trump could be very smart all-purpose wise, but when it comes to partisan intelligence, they are bitter troglodytes.

Finally, the people that invaded the Capitol were largely middle to lower-upper class management folks. Not people that are laborers, they couldn't just take the time off.

Yes—small town/country folks ‘look down’ on city folk as much as city folk look down on country folk—but in a bitter sweet way: their kids get a fancy college degree and leave the farm/small town. They worry their kids will look down on them—and they worry the grandkids won’t know where food comes from or how to repair a garment or a kitchen faucet or change a tire. They’re proud of their kids’ success and feel their way of life not just slipping away but being subsumed by anonymous city life.

How whimsical. The key to liberalism is to recognize your own experience, isn't the only experience. And a person should be as capable of that in a city as in the rural parts of the country.

You feel that country folks look down on you as lazy for having a degree? Probably not as much as a lot of college educated people look down on farmers and factory workers and small town anything, including small town doctors and lawyers.

Is it? Urban areas have been demonized by the right-wing. Effectively turned into strips of poverty while whites moved out to the suburbs, closed access to homes and pools to the darkies. It is where the faggots cluster. Home of the welfare queens of America. Urban areas have been sold as enemy territory, places that you can't even trust the voting now days. The liberal bastion of intolerance of god and America. Personally, I don't know if people in the inner city give a damn about a farmer, much less look down on them.

 

[Jarhyn]

I don’t think that the guy from Ohio as less intelligent but I do think that he hasn’t seen much that gives him hope his kids will have a better life, or that he is valued as a citizen.

He had a good job, was a manager at a company that made stuff (cabinets), had friends, family and most of the things that people say they want. As he said, just a normal family man. I think he had what 99+% of all humans on this planet WISH they had.

But someone convinced him that he deserved more, and that the "more" he deserved was being stolen from him.
IOW, Trump tapped into his primal greed like he did/does to so many others. Holds himself up as an example - "All you have to do is be totally strong, and fight for what you deserve like I do." Not mentioned of course, is how helpful it is to first inherit $400,000,000 or so to help you "fight".
I do feel sorry for him, but also feel like he should be held up as an example of what happens to you if you are a trumpsucker. It was good IMO to hear about his life after 1/6. It would make a classic country song, losing his job and his former life... don't know about his dog but that would be a good add if he lost that too.
It's sad, but I don't hold him harmless - far from it.

We have got to give them space to do that.

I don't think we owe them "space" or anything else. They need to "summon the courage to do the right thing", to borrow a phrase from their mango model. If they won't or don't, they fucking DESERVE to lose it all.

Nobody likes it when they are being looked down upon.

And that's what a lot of urbanites and so called progressives do with regards to people who are in small towns, rural areas, manufacturing.

Believe it or not, it is possible to disagree with someone without thinking they are stupid or ignorant.

I think part of it comes from a particular split between people and maybe an imbalance that has been growing as fewer "useless" people die.

There are folks who just do whatever work like clockwork machines with a family life, and there are people who look at work being done like a clockwork machine and they ask "how can I make a clockwork machine to do my part for society? It's more interesting than being a clockwork machine, certainly!"

But in saying so as you note, the people who have done that "uninteresting" work might take some issue with the lack of interest others show in what they do, or perhaps the scrutiny of interest which drives automation.

I get that others didn't ask to be as incurious as I am curious. I get that others don't feel my consuming need to see the whole shape of things and understand the structure of reality, and mathematically isolated systems in general.

It's also an issue insofar as that those who do "uninteresting" work will always have among them the Luddite.

It's just... Some of us like thinking about what we do more than we like doing what we think about (or what they no longer have to think about), and those who like doing dislike it when that activity implies they were not thinking, especially of the fraction that don't "think" and don't like "thinking" at all.

 

[Toni]

I can't believe Trump lied to us.

Paraphrasing here, but really... I'm glad at maybe a epiphany occurred, but seriously, fuck you.

Well, what do we expect? Lots and I do mean LOTS of oh so smugly superior progressives think that working class people and those living in rural areas and flyover zones really don't count for much. They're just a bunch of bumpkins with bad clothes and worse tats, overweight, bad hair and bad teeth and no prospects. They only count to serve their betters...whatever their betters deserve.

I am really really really serious that those are the people I grew up surrounded by and today, if my car broke down in the county I grew up in, I could walk to the door of the nearest house and they'd help me out, probably invite me to dinner. Maybe even fix my car for me. Even if they had been reading my facebook page for the past 6 years or so. They are decent people who have worked hard all their lives without much pay, and without a lot of chances. They have bigotries and prejudices as do all of us if we are actually even a little bit honest with ourselves. They see value in their jobs, producing your food, packaging your food, making whatever it is you are using in your house that wasn't made overseas. They see value in their lives and in their hopes and dreams.

Shame on us if we can't or won't.

Shame on them if they don't repudiate Trump now.

At some point the "poor victims of society" need to nut up, put their big boy pants on, and admit they were duped by a criminal cult leader. Or, they prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they indeed are nothing but "flyover toothless, ineducable, morons that do not deserve an ounce of consideration... or as Hillary prematurely put it, "deplorables".

Yes, I agree that those who were duped by Trump need to open their eyes and learn that they were duped.

It did we not all learn as school kids that calling people dumb rarely helps them learn. Instead, most kids absorb that Ted her/more educated people think they are dumb and they don’t try. Which translates into a lot of anger sometime between high school and middle age. Thing is: I was good at school so I was often tasked with ‘helping’ some of the kids who weren’t doing so well. Lots of reasons they were t doing so well but it wasn’t often because they were not as smart as anyone else.

A whole bunch of you on this board are good at computer programming and other tech. I’m not, although I can learn what I need to to get done what I want to. If I try. One of my kids is a super wiz at this stuff abnd instead of showing me how to do something, he just does it ‘for’ me. I get that is easier for him: he’s not a patient teacher. And it also lets him feel superior to me.

 

[Toni]

I don’t think that the guy from Ohio as less intelligent but I do think that he hasn’t seen much that gives him hope his kids will have a better life, or that he is valued as a citizen.

He had a good job, was a manager at a company that made stuff (cabinets), had friends, family and most of the things that people say they want. As he said, just a normal family man. I think he had what 99+% of all humans on this planet WISH they had.

But someone convinced him that he deserved more, and that the "more" he deserved was being stolen from him.
IOW, Trump tapped into his primal greed like he did/does to so many others. Holds himself up as an example - "All you have to do is be totally strong, and fight for what you deserve like I do." Not mentioned of course, is how helpful it is to first inherit $400,000,000 or so to help you "fight".
I do feel sorry for him, but also feel like he should be held up as an example of what happens to you if you are a trumpsucker. It was good IMO to hear about his life after 1/6. It would make a classic country song, losing his job and his former life... don't know about his dog but that would be a good add if he lost that too.
It's sad, but I don't hold him harmless - far from it.

We have got to give them space to do that.

I don't think we owe them "space" or anything else. They need to "summon the courage to do the right thing", to borrow a phrase from their mango model. If they won't or don't, they fucking DESERVE to lose it all.

Nobody likes it when they are being looked down upon.

And that's what a lot of urbanites and so called progressives do with regards to people who are in small towns, rural areas, manufacturing.

Believe it or not, it is possible to disagree with someone without thinking they are stupid or ignorant.

I think part of it comes from a particular split between people and maybe an imbalance that has been growing as fewer "useless" people die.

There are folks who just do whatever work like clockwork machines with a family life, and there are people who look at work being done like a clockwork machine and they ask "how can I make a clockwork machine to do my part for society? It's more interesting than being a clockwork machine, certainly!"

But in saying so as you note, the people who have done that "uninteresting" work might take some issue with the lack of interest others show in what they do, or perhaps the scrutiny of interest which drives automation.

I get that others didn't ask to be as incurious as I am curious. I get that others don't feel my consuming need to see the whole shape of things and understand the structure of reality, and mathematically isolated systems in general.

It's also an issue insofar as that those who do "uninteresting" work will always have among them the Luddite.

It's just... Some of us like thinking about what we do more than we like doing what we think about (or what they no longer have to think about), and those who like doing dislike it when that activity implies they were not thinking, especially of the fraction that don't "think" and don't like "thinking" at all.

Some people invest a great deal of themselves in their work. Some people work in order to do what they love doing.

There are curious and incurious among both sets of people. A lot of the people we think of as incurious had the curious beat right out of them.

My dad’s dad tried to force him to drop out of school at 16, when he legally could drop out, because frankly he needed his help. Dad stayed in school to spite his dad and moved off the farm at age 19.

In school, Dad’s teachers often told him he was stupid so to spite them, he’d actually do the school work and earn his A’s to prove them wrong—and then slack off again because: farm work. Plus hunting and fishing were more fun to a teenage boy who loved the outdoors.

But Dad was unusually stubborn and determined and independent. He worked for the same company from age 19 until retirement, starting in the warehouse and moving up, earning some patents for the company, and finally getting to be the person who largely traine whoever they hired to be VP—a job Dad would never hold because he didn’t go to college—told us he would not have gone at 18 if they’d paid him to go. Later, when it became apparent that he had the intelligence and drive to rise to the top, he was married with 4 kids and college was out of reach for him. It made him determined nothing would be out of his kids teach, if they wanted it and worked for it.

But there he was at a fulcrum: Knowing he was as capable as the guys who earned the big bucks that he would never earn—and worried on some level that his kids in surpassing him, would look down on him as he had been looked down on. Definitely true of one of us.

And that’s the rub: most parents want better for their kids—and also dread their kids leaving them behind as an afterthought, not understanding just what it takes to out food on the table or build a car or wore a house or re-plumb a kitchen. Or the value of the people who do those jobs and the life they chose. Or was chosen for them.

 

[Toni]

I don’t think that the guy from Ohio as less intelligent but I do think that he hasn’t seen much that gives him hope his kids will have a better life, or that he is valued as a citizen.

He had a good job, was a manager at a company that made stuff (cabinets), had friends, family and most of the things that people say they want. As he said, just a normal family man. I think he had what 99+% of all humans on this planet WISH they had.

But someone convinced him that he deserved more, and that the "more" he deserved was being stolen from him.
IOW, Trump tapped into his primal greed like he did/does to so many others. Holds himself up as an example - "All you have to do is be totally strong, and fight for what you deserve like I do." Not mentioned of course, is how helpful it is to first inherit $400,000,000 or so to help you "fight".
I do feel sorry for him, but also feel like he should be held up as an example of what happens to you if you are a trumpsucker. It was good IMO to hear about his life after 1/6. It would make a classic country song, losing his job and his former life... don't know about his dog but that would be a good add if he lost that too.
It's sad, but I don't hold him harmless - far from it.

We have got to give them space to do that.

I don't think we owe them "space" or anything else. They need to "summon the courage to do the right thing", to borrow a phrase from their mango model. If they won't or don't, they fucking DESERVE to lose it all.

Nobody likes it when they are being looked down upon.

Funny... because these people love Trump because he looks down at all others.

And that's what a lot of urbanites and so called progressives do with regards to people who are in small towns, rural areas, manufacturing.

Funny... because I have a college degree so I'm considered by 'these people' to not "work hard" for a living.

Believe it or not, it is possible to disagree with someone without thinking they are stupid or ignorant.

Intelligence seems to come with a pair of components: partisan and all-purpose. The people supporting Trump could be very smart all-purpose wise, but when it comes to partisan intelligence, they are bitter troglodytes.

Finally, the people that invaded the Capitol were largely middle to lower-upper class management folks. Not people that are laborers, they couldn't just take the time off.

Yes—small town/country folks ‘look down’ on city folk as much as city folk look down on country folk—but in a bitter sweet way: their kids get a fancy college degree and leave the farm/small town. They worry their kids will look down on them—and they worry the grandkids won’t know where food comes from or how to repair a garment or a kitchen faucet or change a tire. They’re proud of their kids’ success and feel their way of life not just slipping away but being subsumed by anonymous city life.

You feel that country folks look down on you as lazy for having a degree? Probably not as much as a lot of college educated people look down on farmers and factory workers and small town anything, including small town doctors and lawyers.

The fantasy that "city folk just don't get it" is false. Just like how Atheists tend to know MUCH more about Bibles and religious history than "blind believers" of their religion, College educated folk have far more awareness of how the food supply works in America (scientifically, economically, morally, etc..) than college-age farm-hands that got homeschooled and never intend to leave the family farm.
Meanwhilst, back at the farm, those are the people that have no clue what city life is like and what anyone else in the world does to contribute to society, outside of where their corn goes... while they operate their tractors, designed and built by engineers, and consume the internet - completely incapable of understanding social dynamics outside their local church group.

Intellectually? Maybe. That’s a big maybe I’ve learned from being married a long time to a big city boy who got his Ph.D. In economics and still doesn’t know if the corn is ahead or behind schedule if we go on a country drive much less what it means for the local farmers.

How to actually grow a crop, get it harvested, get it to market? Which crop will do the best on a particular bit of land? With your best guess at market and weather conditions and whatever the bank is willing to do?

I mean can you tell a hayfield from soybeans? Timothy from alfalfa? Or wheat? I assume you know corn from soybeans and cows from bulls but can you identify a steer? Know what to feed chickens or pigs?

Those church groups you look down on help their neighbors if someone is sick or injured or a piece of equipment breaks or if someone has a heart attack. By help, I mean, show up with a hundred thousand dollar piece of equipment to do what needs doing in time and well. Equipment they largely maintain themselves or did until it stated coming with too many computer components.

You know who raised those engineers? Judging my by high school graduating class: a bunch of farmers who are smart enough to see how undervalued their work is and want an easier life for their kids.

 

[TV and credit cards]

Maybe it's more about perception than anything else.

 

[Jarhyn]

I don’t think that the guy from Ohio as less intelligent but I do think that he hasn’t seen much that gives him hope his kids will have a better life, or that he is valued as a citizen.

He had a good job, was a manager at a company that made stuff (cabinets), had friends, family and most of the things that people say they want. As he said, just a normal family man. I think he had what 99+% of all humans on this planet WISH they had.

But someone convinced him that he deserved more, and that the "more" he deserved was being stolen from him.
IOW, Trump tapped into his primal greed like he did/does to so many others. Holds himself up as an example - "All you have to do is be totally strong, and fight for what you deserve like I do." Not mentioned of course, is how helpful it is to first inherit $400,000,000 or so to help you "fight".
I do feel sorry for him, but also feel like he should be held up as an example of what happens to you if you are a trumpsucker. It was good IMO to hear about his life after 1/6. It would make a classic country song, losing his job and his former life... don't know about his dog but that would be a good add if he lost that too.
It's sad, but I don't hold him harmless - far from it.

We have got to give them space to do that.

I don't think we owe them "space" or anything else. They need to "summon the courage to do the right thing", to borrow a phrase from their mango model. If they won't or don't, they fucking DESERVE to lose it all.

Nobody likes it when they are being looked down upon.

Funny... because these people love Trump because he looks down at all others.

And that's what a lot of urbanites and so called progressives do with regards to people who are in small towns, rural areas, manufacturing.

Funny... because I have a college degree so I'm considered by 'these people' to not "work hard" for a living.

Believe it or not, it is possible to disagree with someone without thinking they are stupid or ignorant.

Intelligence seems to come with a pair of components: partisan and all-purpose. The people supporting Trump could be very smart all-purpose wise, but when it comes to partisan intelligence, they are bitter troglodytes.

Finally, the people that invaded the Capitol were largely middle to lower-upper class management folks. Not people that are laborers, they couldn't just take the time off.

Yes—small town/country folks ‘look down’ on city folk as much as city folk look down on country folk—but in a bitter sweet way: their kids get a fancy college degree and leave the farm/small town. They worry their kids will look down on them—and they worry the grandkids won’t know where food comes from or how to repair a garment or a kitchen faucet or change a tire. They’re proud of their kids’ success and feel their way of life not just slipping away but being subsumed by anonymous city life.

You feel that country folks look down on you as lazy for having a degree? Probably not as much as a lot of college educated people look down on farmers and factory workers and small town anything, including small town doctors and lawyers.

The fantasy that "city folk just don't get it" is false. Just like how Atheists tend to know MUCH more about Bibles and religious history than "blind believers" of their religion, College educated folk have far more awareness of how the food supply works in America (scientifically, economically, morally, etc..) than college-age farm-hands that got homeschooled and never intend to leave the family farm.
Meanwhilst, back at the farm, those are the people that have no clue what city life is like and what anyone else in the world does to contribute to society, outside of where their corn goes... while they operate their tractors, designed and built by engineers, and consume the internet - completely incapable of understanding social dynamics outside their local church group.

Intellectually? Maybe. That’s a big maybe I’ve learned from being married a long time to a big city boy who got his Ph.D. In economics and still doesn’t know if the corn is ahead or behind schedule if we go on a country drive much less what it means for the local farmers.

How to actually grow a crop, get it harvested, get it to market? Which crop will do the best on a particular bit of land? With your best guess at market and weather conditions and whatever the bank is willing to do?

I mean can you tell a hayfield from soybeans? Timothy from alfalfa? Or wheat? I assume you know corn from soybeans and cows from bulls but can you identify a steer? Know what to feed chickens or pigs?

Those church groups you look down on help their neighbors if someone is sick or injured or a piece of equipment breaks or if someone has a heart attack. By help, I mean, show up with a hundred thousand dollar piece of equipment to do what needs doing in time and well. Equipment they largely maintain themselves or did until it stated coming with too many computer components.

You know who raised those engineers? Judging my by high school graduating class: a bunch of farmers who are smart enough to see how undervalued their work is and want an easier life for their kids.

You know, this birthed an idea in my head, to make an IC-EV that is entirely end user maintainable down to the circuit component level, something that someone with no programming knowledge could test, fix, and maintain, requires no diagnostics besides a multimeter, and can be learned in the same time or less than a mechanical drive train ICE