# Climate Change(d)?

#### bilby

##### Fair dinkum thinkum
People in their 0s have summited Mt Rainer, about 14k feet
I find that astonishing; Most people in their 0s can't even walk at sea level.

#### Loren Pechtel

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
In the 80s when living in Portalnd I used to go up n Mt hood with crampons and ice axe. Around 10k feet. I never felt it, but that s differnt tan living at 1ok feet or higher.

People in their 0s have summited Mt Rainer, about 14k feet..

The test woud be taking a cognitive and physical equity test at low altitude and at 10k feet after a day.

Or you can measure your level walking heart rate and blood oxygen level at low altitude and 10k feet to see how harder your heart is working. Meters are cheap and in drug stores. It would be a good experiment.

My heart efficiency metric is 30% insted of a typical; 80%. I would have a hard time at high altitude. I would not get enough O2 around my body.
Microspikes/snowshoes are my limit. If I need crampons it's too much. There have been times I've debated about an ice axe--but only as a tool to tame some of the remains in melt season, not for it's intended purpose.

I've never tried heart efficiency calculations. Trying to make an even comparison between low and high altitude heart rate would be basically impossible due to the lack of sufficient level ground at high altitude around here. I have noticed my max heart rate will go higher at sea level elevation even though it doesn't feel like I'm working as hard--which says to me that my perception of exertion is actually related to oxygen and not truly exertion.

I'm sure I would not perform as well on either a cognitive or physical test at high elevation--it's just I get no mountain sickness. My impression of Rainer is that it's too technical for me, but I'm hoping to someday do Whitney as a 2-day.

#### Loren Pechtel

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
People in their 0s have summited Mt Rainer, about 14k feet
I find that astonishing; Most people in their 0s can't even walk at sea level.
I would think most 9 year olds could walk at sea level just fine.

#### Jimmy Higgins

##### Contributor
People in their 0s have summited Mt Rainer, about 14k feet
I find that astonishing; Most people in their 0s can't even walk at sea level.
I would think most 9 year olds could walk at sea level just fine.
*sigh*

#### TSwizzle

##### Let's Go Brandon!
The Ministry of Truth (AKA BBC) caught telling fibs;

A BBC Panorama documentary about global warming made a number of false claims, an internal investigation by the broadcaster has found. The programme Wild Weather, presented by climate editor Justin Rowlatt, said deaths worldwide were rising due to extreme weather caused by climate change – whereas the opposite is true. It also claimed Madagascar was on the verge of the first famine caused by climate change – despite other factors being involved.

Rowlatt's sister is a rapture cultist and has been arrested for her eco warrior activities for extinction rebellion.

#### Jimmy Higgins

##### Contributor
The Ministry of Truth (AKA BBC) caught telling fibs;

A BBC Panorama documentary about global warming made a number of false claims, an internal investigation by the broadcaster has found. The programme Wild Weather, presented by climate editor Justin Rowlatt, said deaths worldwide were rising due to extreme weather caused by climate change – whereas the opposite is true. It also claimed Madagascar was on the verge of the first famine caused by climate change – despite other factors being involved.

Rowlatt's sister is a rapture cultist and has been arrested for her eco warrior activities for extinction rebellion.
Well thank goodness this was exposed. Now we know that temperatures on Earth aren't increasing relatively quickly and sea levels aren't slowly increasing / warming.

#### steve_bank

##### Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
What a relief, I will sleep much better now.

#### TSwizzle

##### Let's Go Brandon!
What a relief, I will sleep much better now.

There are very few things that give me a restless night, mostly job related stuff. I have never once gone to bed and thought about "climate change". I've maybe gone to bed and thought, "It's going to be nice out tomorrow, I think I'll grill dinner." My swimming pool is warming up nicely, I think I could go swimming this weekend.

#### pood

##### Senior Member
What a relief, I will sleep much better now.

There are very few things that give me a restless night, mostly job related stuff. I have never once gone to bed and thought about "climate change". I've maybe gone to bed and thought, "It's going to be nice out tomorrow, I think I'll grill dinner." My swimming pool is warming up nicely, I think I could go swimming this weekend.

Were you planning to respond to my linked refutation of your claim that past predictions of climate change have been spectacularly wrong?

When you write something like the above, it makes me think you are a troll. Surely you understand the difference between weather and climate? Or no? Or do you pretend not to?

#### Loren Pechtel

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
The Ministry of Truth (AKA BBC) caught telling fibs;

A BBC Panorama documentary about global warming made a number of false claims, an internal investigation by the broadcaster has found. The programme Wild Weather, presented by climate editor Justin Rowlatt, said deaths worldwide were rising due to extreme weather caused by climate change – whereas the opposite is true. It also claimed Madagascar was on the verge of the first famine caused by climate change – despite other factors being involved.

Rowlatt's sister is a rapture cultist and has been arrested for her eco warrior activities for extinction rebellion.

#### bilby

##### Fair dinkum thinkum
The Ministry of Truth (AKA BBC)
You do understand that this isn't a tabloid newspaper or right-wing talk show, right?

I mean, you would have made a much better impression on your audience here without making this stupid and cartoonish dig at the BBC before getting to the point.

Do you understand that?

Pitching your arguments at a very low intellectual level is a good idea if you are writing for the Daily Mail, but in here it just makes you look stupid, and detracts from any actual message you might have.

I am guessing that no internal investigation by the BBC referred to their own organisation as "The Ministry of Truth", so why the fuck did you decide to do so?

Or, perhaps, was your entire post cut and pasted from an infantile source such as the Mail? Are you perhaps not even able to come up with your own slurs?

#### Hermit

##### Cantankerous grump
The Ministry of Truth (AKA BBC) caught telling fibs;

A BBC Panorama documentary about global warming made a number of false claims, an internal investigation by the broadcaster has found. The programme Wild Weather, presented by climate editor Justin Rowlatt, said deaths worldwide were rising due to extreme weather caused by climate change – whereas the opposite is true. It also claimed Madagascar was on the verge of the first famine caused by climate change – despite other factors being involved.

Rowlatt's sister is a rapture cultist and has been arrested for her eco warrior activities for extinction rebellion.

#### steve_bank

##### Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
I am sure passengers on the Titanic slept well right up to that big thump they heard.

#### Swammerdami

Staff member
Let's go Brandon!
The Ministry of Truth (AKA BBC)
Rapture-like cult.
I mean, you would have made a much better impression on your audience here without making this stupid and cartoonish dig at the BBC before getting to the point.
I'll need a cite for the "much better impression." True, the "Ministry of Truth" dig is just as drivelish as the other quoted "sentences," but at least it's fresh material.

#### TSwizzle

##### Let's Go Brandon!
I am sure passengers on the Titanic slept well right up to that big thump they heard.

The “climate crisis/emergency/apocalypse etc” is a luxury gripe for the upper middle classes to virtue signal about as they drive up the street in their Tesla. I can’t imagine anyone hunkered down in places like Mariupol thinking that the “big thump” they just heard and felt was a .000001 degree average temperature increase calculated by some end of times cultist.

An end of times, doomsday, rapture like cult.

#### pood

##### Senior Member
I am sure passengers on the Titanic slept well right up to that big thump they heard.

The “climate crisis/emergency/apocalypse etc” is a luxury gripe for the upper middle classes to virtue signal about as they drive up the street in their Tesla. I can’t imagine anyone hunkered down in places like Mariupol thinking that the “big thump” they just heard and felt was a .000001 degree average temperature increase calculated by some end of times cultist.

An end of times, doomsday, rapture like cult.

I still await your response to my linked refutation of your claim that all past climate change predictions have proved to be spectacularly wrong. If you continue to ignore this everyone will draw his or her own conclusions about your inclination to have a good-faith discussion as opposed to trolling.

A luxury gripe? Virtue signaling? Elitist? My goodness. Tell that to the inhabitants of Bangladesh whose residents live on about a dollar a day who are watching their shorelines being lapped away by rising waters because of climate change. Tell that to all the poor people throughout vast swathes of the Middle East and South central Asia, including most of India, who are facing lethal wet bulb 35 temperatures by century’s end unless we rein in global warming. Address this in light of the fact that all the cllimate change models, which for the last fifty years have been spectacularly accurate (if actually a bit UNDERSTATED) now show that the effects of climate change will fall most harshly on the world’s poorest, who had the least to do with dumping carbon into the atmosphere and trapping heat.

Cliimate change denialism really is like a cult, a cult fed by Fox News and other right-wing propagandists for the fossil-fuel industry and practically ever other retrograde idea or institution in the world.

Lets’s go Dump!

#### steve_bank

##### Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
There must be a web site where less than able critical thinkers go to get sound bites for climate change denials.

A luxury? California is running dry. In the news Ca has been considering desalinization.

Maybe I should be more explicit. The conservative climate deniers are the Titanic, a luxury cruise ship. Trump proclaiming we should use more coal.

Poetic justice would be Trump's Mira Lago getting flooded.

I still find it hard to believe there are actually people who think and talk like Sean Hannity and Tucker Carlson.

#### pood

##### Senior Member
There must be a web site where less than able critical thinkers go to get sound bites for climate change denials.

A luxury? California is running dry. In the news Ca has been considering desalinization.

Maybe I should be more explicit. The conservative climate deniers are the Titanic, a luxury cruise ship. Trump proclaiming we should use more coal.

Poetic justice would be Trump's Mira Lago getting flooded.

I still find it hard to believe there are actually people who think and talk like Sean Hannity and Tucker Carlson.

I’m sure there is a web site, many in fact, for climate change deniers to get their sound bites. Fox News comes to mind.

#### TSwizzle

##### Let's Go Brandon!
A luxury? California is running dry. In the news Ca has been considering desalinization.

FFS, Steve, California is mostly desert and has droughts all through its history. Millions of people live here only because water is sourced artificially via man made lakes. And it’s about time the assholes that run this state addressed our water needs instead of wasting billions on a failed high speed rail project. I heard recently there are plans for a desalination plant in Orange County.
Maybe I should be more explicit. The conservative climate deniers are the Titanic, a luxury cruise ship. Trump proclaiming we should use more coal.
These asinine titanic analogies are pathetic. It really does show your religious tendencies. And no one, absolutely no one denies climate. You’re like a screeching baboon flinging shit in your enclosure.
Poetic justice would be Trump's Mira Lago getting flooded.

And Obama’s home will be just fine I suppose.

I still find it hard to believe there are actually people who think and talk like Sean Hannity and Tucker Carlson.
More shit flinging by a primate. Fox News, Hannity, Tucker, Trump, blah fucking blah.

An end of times, doomsday, rapture like cult.

#### steve_bank

##### Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
The Ca water shortage is here regardless of drought. La is unsustainable regardless of drought.

Yes Ca is a lot of dry desert, which is the point. Development and population growth beyond what resources can sustain. A 90s govt paper predicated the La region would begin having drinking water problems in these times without climate change.

Its pretty simple. A person needs a minimum amount of water per day. Industry needs water. Agriculture needs water. It is simple arithmetic.

X demand vs Y supply. Exacerbated by climate change.

Going back to the 19th century water allocation was always an issue in Ca. And politics. Eastern federal politicians determining western water allocation.

There is a reason why California is called LaLa Land.

#### TSwizzle

##### Let's Go Brandon!
The Ca water shortage is here regardless of drought. La is unsustainable regardless of drought.

Unsustainable? I wouldn't go that far. As I said earlier, the politicians that run the state have thrown money at a failed high speed rail project that we don't need rather than infrastructure we ALL need, i.e. water. And of course we have the environMENTALists blocking everything.

X demand vs Y supply. Exacerbated by climate change.

Climate change is a handy excuse for the incompetent politicians that run the state of California. It's bullshit of course but Newsom is sticking with that excuse.

#### pood

##### Senior Member
A luxury? California is running dry. In the news Ca has been considering desalinization.

FFS, Steve, California is mostly desert and has droughts all through its history. Millions of people live here only because water is sourced artificially via man made lakes. And it’s about time the assholes that run this state addressed our water needs instead of wasting billions on a failed high speed rail project. I heard recently there are plans for a desalination plant in Orange County.
Maybe I should be more explicit. The conservative climate deniers are the Titanic, a luxury cruise ship. Trump proclaiming we should use more coal.
These asinine titanic analogies are pathetic. It really does show your religious tendencies. And no one, absolutely no one denies climate. You’re like a screeching baboon flinging shit in your enclosure.
Poetic justice would be Trump's Mira Lago getting flooded.

And Obama’s home will be just fine I suppose.

I still find it hard to believe there are actually people who think and talk like Sean Hannity and Tucker Carlson.
More shit flinging by a primate. Fox News, Hannity, Tucker, Trump, blah fucking blah.

An end of times, doomsday, rapture like cult.

When were you going to answer my linked refutation of your claim that all climate change predictions have been “spectacularly wrong?”

Of course you’re not going to.

#### bilby

##### Fair dinkum thinkum
The Ca water shortage is here regardless of drought. La is unsustainable regardless of drought.

Yes Ca is a lot of dry desert, which is the point. Development and population growth beyond what resources can sustain. A 90s govt paper predicated the La region would begin having drinking water problems in these times without climate change.

Its pretty simple. A person needs a minimum amount of water per day. Industry needs water. Agriculture needs water. It is simple arithmetic.

X demand vs Y supply. Exacerbated by climate change.

Going back to the 19th century water allocation was always an issue in Ca. And politics. Eastern federal politicians determining western water allocation.

There is a reason why California is called LaLa Land.
Human beings have been incredibly successful at surviving in pretty much every terrestrial environment, because we use tools and technologies to allow us to do so.

Cities are incredibly hostile environments. They produce insufficient food, and typically have inadequate water too.

This isn't an actual problem. Unless we abandon technology, in which case somewhere between seven eighths and nine tenths of humans will die. So let's not do that.

LA is a wealthy region with very advanced technology available to it, and sits on the edge of the planet's largest body of open water. Desalination is cheap, well established technology.

LA will be just fine, as long as people there are not mind-bogglingly stupid. So they're probably fucked.

#### Jimmy Higgins

##### Contributor
The Ca water shortage is here regardless of drought. La is unsustainable regardless of drought.

Yes Ca is a lot of dry desert, which is the point. Development and population growth beyond what resources can sustain.
As opposed to NYC or Chicago? I'd say the drought is extraordinarily relevant!
A 90s govt paper predicated the La region would begin having drinking water problems in these times without climate change.

Its pretty simple. A person needs a minimum amount of water per day. Industry needs water. Agriculture needs water. It is simple arithmetic.
And unless the greater LA area is responsible for 100% of Southern California grown almond and walnut consumption, it isn't that simple.

#### Jimmy Higgins

##### Contributor

LA is a wealthy region with very advanced technology available to it, and sits on the edge of the planet's largest body of open water. Desalination is cheap, well established technology.

LA will be just fine, as long as people there are not mind-bogglingly stupid. So they're probably fucked.
I don't think so. The future is in training whales to herd icebergs.

#### Politesse

##### Lux Aeterna
As always, people are certain that California (by far the wealthiest, most populous, and one of the most beautiful US states) is secretly being run into the ground, but have no tangible solutions of their own to propose for addressing California's problems, just complaints.

I do think that Newsom needs to grow a bit of a spine and seriously curtail industrial water use, though ideally this should be done carefully so as to avoid destroying our GDP in the process. The current aproach of asking residents to voluntarily cut back their usage is transparently failing. I think people are fatally tired of government regulation of their lives post pandemic -- it's going to require more than just asking a casual favor to address this, and private residences - which already greatly reduced their water usage in response to previous droughts - aren't really who needs to tighten their belts. We have the technology to greatly reduce industrial and agricultural uses without tanking productivity. Let's put our technology to use.

Actually, something that could really help is a bit more of a media panic about all this. I don't think most Californians at present have any idea how bad the situation is; we had some wet storms late in the season, and I suspect people who aren't paying much attention to their news feeds may not even have realized that our deficit is as serious as it is. We probably could reduce private residence usage if we were really trying. Here in the SF Bay region. I haven't seen anyone putting in a new lawn in ages, xeroscaping is in.

#### Loren Pechtel

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
The Ca water shortage is here regardless of drought. La is unsustainable regardless of drought.

Unsustainable? I wouldn't go that far. As I said earlier, the politicians that run the state have thrown money at a failed high speed rail project that we don't need rather than infrastructure we ALL need, i.e. water. And of course we have the environMENTALists blocking everything.

What they're trying to block is unsustainable usage. Everybody's been doing it.

There is only one realistic answer for the long term and that is desalinization. It's expensive, though, and the right would prefer to trash the ecology before resorting to it.

#### TSwizzle

##### Let's Go Brandon!
The proposed desalination plant for Orange County, California was unanimously rejected by the environmental board.

#### steve_bank

##### Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
The Ca water shortage is here regardless of drought. La is unsustainable regardless of drought.

Unsustainable? I wouldn't go that far. As I said earlier, the politicians that run the state have thrown money at a failed high speed rail project that we don't need rather than infrastructure we ALL need, i.e. water. And of course we have the environMENTALists blocking everything.

What they're trying to block is unsustainable usage. Everybody's been doing it.

There is only one realistic answer for the long term and that is desalinization. It's expensive, though, and the right would prefer to trash the ecology before resorting to it.
It was rejected om envoronmental grounds, the retyrned salt woud chnage the wter salinity and affect marine lefe..

#### steve_bank

##### Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
The proposed desalination plant for Orange County, California was unanimously rejected by the environmental board.
In California I undestand some of holes in ground they hode their heads in are quite comfortable. Air codition,ing and TV.

#### Loren Pechtel

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
The Ca water shortage is here regardless of drought. La is unsustainable regardless of drought.

Unsustainable? I wouldn't go that far. As I said earlier, the politicians that run the state have thrown money at a failed high speed rail project that we don't need rather than infrastructure we ALL need, i.e. water. And of course we have the environMENTALists blocking everything.

What they're trying to block is unsustainable usage. Everybody's been doing it.

There is only one realistic answer for the long term and that is desalinization. It's expensive, though, and the right would prefer to trash the ecology before resorting to it.
It was rejected om envoronmental grounds, the retyrned salt woud chnage the wter salinity and affect marine lefe..
Which is why you have to be careful with your discharge water--it needs to be dispersed adequately to avoid such problems. Simply sticking a pipe out into the ocean is going to create an ecological mess.

#### bilby

##### Fair dinkum thinkum
The Ca water shortage is here regardless of drought. La is unsustainable regardless of drought.

Unsustainable? I wouldn't go that far. As I said earlier, the politicians that run the state have thrown money at a failed high speed rail project that we don't need rather than infrastructure we ALL need, i.e. water. And of course we have the environMENTALists blocking everything.

What they're trying to block is unsustainable usage. Everybody's been doing it.

There is only one realistic answer for the long term and that is desalinization. It's expensive, though, and the right would prefer to trash the ecology before resorting to it.
It was rejected om envoronmental grounds, the retyrned salt woud chnage the wter salinity and affect marine lefe..
Which is why you have to be careful with your discharge water--it needs to be dispersed adequately to avoid such problems. Simply sticking a pipe out into the ocean is going to create an ecological mess.
Yes, it needs to be addressed; But it’s not a particularly difficult engineering problem. The waste brine is literally a drop in the ocean, you just need to make it mix in a bit before it reaches any sensitive habitats.

#### Loren Pechtel

##### Super Moderator
Staff member

For those who still deny that things are changing. Note that this article is about hiking the Pacific Crest Trail, but look about 1/3 of the way down, a set of 4 maps. Note how the highest temperatures have risen substantially between maps #1 and #2--that's historical change, not projection (maps #3 and #4 are projections.) Fairly small changes overall end up making much bigger changes of the extremes.

#### Jimmy Higgins

##### Contributor
The Ca water shortage is here regardless of drought. La is unsustainable regardless of drought.

Yes Ca is a lot of dry desert, which is the point. Development and population growth beyond what resources can sustain. A 90s govt paper predicated the La region would begin having drinking water problems in these times without climate change.

Its pretty simple. A person needs a minimum amount of water per day. Industry needs water. Agriculture needs water. It is simple arithmetic.

X demand vs Y supply. Exacerbated by climate change.

Going back to the 19th century water allocation was always an issue in Ca. And politics. Eastern federal politicians determining western water allocation.

There is a reason why California is called LaLa Land.
Human beings have been incredibly successful at surviving in pretty much every terrestrial environment, because we use tools and technologies to allow us to do so.

Cities are incredibly hostile environments. They produce insufficient food, and typically have inadequate water too.

This isn't an actual problem. Unless we abandon technology, in which case somewhere between seven eighths and nine tenths of humans will die. So let's not do that.

LA is a wealthy region with very advanced technology available to it, and sits on the edge of the planet's largest body of open water. Desalination is cheap, well established technology.

LA will be just fine, as long as people there are not mind-bogglingly stupid. So they're probably fucked.
Looking at the numbers, or at least trying to, desalination (of ocean water) seems energy intensive and expensive relative to potable reuse water and at best is a smaller piece to the puzzle.

#### bilby

##### Fair dinkum thinkum
The Ca water shortage is here regardless of drought. La is unsustainable regardless of drought.

Yes Ca is a lot of dry desert, which is the point. Development and population growth beyond what resources can sustain. A 90s govt paper predicated the La region would begin having drinking water problems in these times without climate change.

Its pretty simple. A person needs a minimum amount of water per day. Industry needs water. Agriculture needs water. It is simple arithmetic.

X demand vs Y supply. Exacerbated by climate change.

Going back to the 19th century water allocation was always an issue in Ca. And politics. Eastern federal politicians determining western water allocation.

There is a reason why California is called LaLa Land.
Human beings have been incredibly successful at surviving in pretty much every terrestrial environment, because we use tools and technologies to allow us to do so.

Cities are incredibly hostile environments. They produce insufficient food, and typically have inadequate water too.

This isn't an actual problem. Unless we abandon technology, in which case somewhere between seven eighths and nine tenths of humans will die. So let's not do that.

LA is a wealthy region with very advanced technology available to it, and sits on the edge of the planet's largest body of open water. Desalination is cheap, well established technology.

LA will be just fine, as long as people there are not mind-bogglingly stupid. So they're probably fucked.
Looking at the numbers, or at least trying to, desalination (of ocean water) seems energy intensive and expensive relative to potable reuse water and at best is a smaller piece to the puzzle.
Sure, there may well be better and cheaper options; But given a choice between desalinated water at even a couple of bucks per m3, and going thirsty, it’s a no-brianer.

The worst case scenario isn’t that you run out of water; It’s that the price of water rises to maybe $0.002 per litre, delivered to your home in unlimited quantities. The figure given in your source suggests that it might be as little as$0.00085/l. I don’t think we need to panic.

#### Jimmy Higgins

##### Contributor
The Ca water shortage is here regardless of drought. La is unsustainable regardless of drought.

Yes Ca is a lot of dry desert, which is the point. Development and population growth beyond what resources can sustain. A 90s govt paper predicated the La region would begin having drinking water problems in these times without climate change.

Its pretty simple. A person needs a minimum amount of water per day. Industry needs water. Agriculture needs water. It is simple arithmetic.

X demand vs Y supply. Exacerbated by climate change.

Going back to the 19th century water allocation was always an issue in Ca. And politics. Eastern federal politicians determining western water allocation.

There is a reason why California is called LaLa Land.
Human beings have been incredibly successful at surviving in pretty much every terrestrial environment, because we use tools and technologies to allow us to do so.

Cities are incredibly hostile environments. They produce insufficient food, and typically have inadequate water too.

This isn't an actual problem. Unless we abandon technology, in which case somewhere between seven eighths and nine tenths of humans will die. So let's not do that.

LA is a wealthy region with very advanced technology available to it, and sits on the edge of the planet's largest body of open water. Desalination is cheap, well established technology.

LA will be just fine, as long as people there are not mind-bogglingly stupid. So they're probably fucked.
Looking at the numbers, or at least trying to, desalination (of ocean water) seems energy intensive and expensive relative to potable reuse water and at best is a smaller piece to the puzzle.
Sure, there may well be better and cheaper options; But given a choice between desalinated water at even a couple of bucks per m3, and going thirsty, it’s a no-brianer.

The worst case scenario isn’t that you run out of water; It’s that the price of water rises to maybe $0.002 per litre, delivered to your home in unlimited quantities. The figure given in your source suggests that it might be as little as$0.00085/l. I don’t think we need to panic.
There is no silver bullet, so desalination is going to be part of the solution, but I'm not certain just how big. Potable reuse could cover a lot more ground, for a good deal cheaper.

#### bilby

##### Fair dinkum thinkum
The Ca water shortage is here regardless of drought. La is unsustainable regardless of drought.

Yes Ca is a lot of dry desert, which is the point. Development and population growth beyond what resources can sustain. A 90s govt paper predicated the La region would begin having drinking water problems in these times without climate change.

Its pretty simple. A person needs a minimum amount of water per day. Industry needs water. Agriculture needs water. It is simple arithmetic.

X demand vs Y supply. Exacerbated by climate change.

Going back to the 19th century water allocation was always an issue in Ca. And politics. Eastern federal politicians determining western water allocation.

There is a reason why California is called LaLa Land.
Human beings have been incredibly successful at surviving in pretty much every terrestrial environment, because we use tools and technologies to allow us to do so.

Cities are incredibly hostile environments. They produce insufficient food, and typically have inadequate water too.

This isn't an actual problem. Unless we abandon technology, in which case somewhere between seven eighths and nine tenths of humans will die. So let's not do that.

LA is a wealthy region with very advanced technology available to it, and sits on the edge of the planet's largest body of open water. Desalination is cheap, well established technology.

LA will be just fine, as long as people there are not mind-bogglingly stupid. So they're probably fucked.
Looking at the numbers, or at least trying to, desalination (of ocean water) seems energy intensive and expensive relative to potable reuse water and at best is a smaller piece to the puzzle.
Sure, there may well be better and cheaper options; But given a choice between desalinated water at even a couple of bucks per m3, and going thirsty, it’s a no-brianer.

The worst case scenario isn’t that you run out of water; It’s that the price of water rises to maybe $0.002 per litre, delivered to your home in unlimited quantities. The figure given in your source suggests that it might be as little as$0.00085/l. I don’t think we need to panic.
There is no silver bullet, so desalination is going to be part of the solution, but I'm not certain just how big. Potable reuse could cover a lot more ground, for a good deal cheaper.
Great.

The ultimate backstop is desalination, and as long as LA remains on the Pacific coast, it ensures that the city cannot run out of water, even if all other sources fail.

But I am all for finding cheaper and better solutions where possible.

#### T.G.G. Moogly

It still amazes me given the facts that people and government officials are so in denial. Watering the lawn and washing the car are restricted to a couple days a week? Is this sane? The water is running out. FFS conserve the water you have. You really have to wash your fucking car? Holy shitfuck! The horror of having a car with dust or pollen!

But this problem has been in the making for a long time and isn't going to change. The scarcity of water isn't really the problem. The problem is the attitude and inability to grasp reality.

#### steve_bank

##### Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
Watched a segment on Lake Powell and Lake Mead. It really is serious. Hydro power may shut down. Agriculture and our food suppkt will be affected.

What is the watts/liter for desalinization? That peaky question, how much energy?

Water supply and sanitation in Saudi Arabia is characterized by challenges and achievements. One of the main challenges is water scarcity. In order to overcome water scarcity, substantial investments have been undertaken in seawater desalination, water distribution, sewerage and wastewater treatment. Today about 50% of drinking water comes from desalination, 40% from the mining of non-renewable groundwater and only 10% from surface water in the mountainous southwest of the country. The capital Riyadh, located in the heart of the country, is supplied with desalinated water pumped from the Persian Gulf over a distance of 467 km. Water is provided almost for free to residential users. Despite improvements, service quality remains poor, for example in terms of continuity of supply. Another challenge is weak institutional capacity and governance, reflecting general characteristics of the public sector in Saudi Arabia. Among the achievements is a significant increase in desalination, and in access to water, the expansion of wastewater treatment, as well as the use of treated effluent for the irrigation of urban green spaces, and for agriculture.

Since 2000, the government has increasingly relied on the private sector to operate water and sanitation infrastructure, beginning with desalination and wastewater treatment plants. Since the creation of the National Water Company (NWC) in 2008, the operation of urban water distribution systems in the four largest cities has gradually been delegated to private companies as well. The apparent paradox of very low water tariffs and water privatization is explained by government subsidies. The government buys desalinated water from private operators at high prices and resells the bulk water for free. Likewise, the government directly pays private operators that run the water distribution and sewer systems of large cities under management contracts. Furthermore, it fully subsidizes investments in water distribution and sewers. Water utilities are expected to recover an increasing share of their costs from the sale of treated effluent to industries. In January 2016 water and sewer tariffs were increased for the first time in more than a decade, which resulted in discontent and in the sacking of the Minister of Water and Energy Abdullah Al-Hussayen in April 2016.[3]

As South Africa faces ever more severe water shortages, some experts are seriously considering a proposal to harvest Antarctic icebergs and haul them to Cape Town. What are the chances it will succeed?

Saudi Arabia has considered it as well.
What's the story with Saudi Arabia and icebergs?

In the 1970s, Saudi Prince Mohamed Al-Faisal wanted to tow an Antarctic iceberg across the equator to Saudi Arabia, and funded two international conferences on the subject. The EU received proposals in the 2010s to tow an iceberg from Newfoundland to the Canary Islands.Sep 18, 2018

#### Jokodo

##### Veteran Member
Watts per litre may be a valid unit for the energy it takes to compensate for evaporation losses in an open body of water (although arguably that's better expressed in warts per square metre of open surface) it isn't a valid unit for production of fresh water.

#### Swammerdami

Staff member
Some experts regard shortage of fresh water in Northern California to be at least as big a threat as the shortage in Southern California.

The Sacramento River from the north and San Joaquin River from the south merge into a big delta which was salty part of the year even before man intervened. (Cities as far from the ocean as Sacramento or Stockton are barely above sea level. In fact much of the area would already be a huge brackish marsh/lake if not protected by many levees.) These rivers provide drinking water to over half California's population, and much of their water is diverted for irrigation. As drought lowers the levels of these two important rivers, salt incursion becomes more of a problem.

#### Politesse

##### Lux Aeterna
As drought lowers the levels of these two important rivers, salt incursion becomes more of a problem.
And the political lobby of the ag industry in the Valley counties is such that any conversation about calculated river management is political suicide. The farmers would happily see the San Joaquin and Sacramento rivers go completely dry over the summer rather than surrender any of their water rights.

#### steve_bank

##### Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...
As drought lowers the levels of these two important rivers, salt incursion becomes more of a problem.
And the political lobby of the ag industry in the Valley counties is such that any conversation about calculated river management is political suicide. The farmers would happily see the San Joaquin and Sacramento rivers go completely dry over the summer rather than surrender any of their water rights.
Water politics goes back to the1 9th century does it not?

#### Loren Pechtel

##### Super Moderator
Staff member
Watts per litre may be a valid unit for the energy it takes to compensate for evaporation losses in an open body of water (although arguably that's better expressed in warts per square metre of open surface) it isn't a valid unit for production of fresh water.
Why not? It's the cost of converting sea water (which is plentiful) into fresh water.

#### steve_bank

##### Diabetic retinopathy and poor eyesight. Typos ...

Hpow much more electrical capacity will Ca need for large scale desalination. As with most things, if energy is not feasible then all ohter isuues are moot.

If you have some kind of opn area system how many m^2 does it take?

#### Jokodo

##### Veteran Member
Watts per litre may be a valid unit for the energy it takes to compensate for evaporation losses in an open body of water (although arguably that's better expressed in warts per square metre of open surface) it isn't a valid unit for production of fresh water.
Why not? It's the cost of converting sea water (which is plentiful) into fresh water.
Because Watts is not a unit of energy, it's a unit of power.

#### bilby

##### Fair dinkum thinkum
Watts per litre may be a valid unit for the energy it takes to compensate for evaporation losses in an open body of water (although arguably that's better expressed in warts per square metre of open surface) it isn't a valid unit for production of fresh water.
Why not? It's the cost of converting sea water (which is plentiful) into fresh water.
And it’s a pretty small cost. About \$0.00085/litre.

If you are a householder, and can’t afford that, then you have much bigger problems - just wait till you find out what food costs.

If you are an irrigator and you can’t afford that, then tough shit, your business isn’t viable. Move elsewhere, or go into another line of business. The wider community has no reason nor obligation to make your unviable business into a success.