College Has Gotten 12 Times More Expensive in One Generation

[NobleSavage]

Yeah, I'll give you that engineering is a more difficult degree. I never bagged on engineers. But don't underestimate the total amount of info you have to digest to get an accounting degree. You have any idea how big the IRS code is? And that is just a start. Most of the time those laws don't quite fit or are vague: so you have to know how to research the Revenue Rulings to try and figure it out. Financially, my accounting friends have done better than my engineering friends.

Ah accounting... if engineering was like accounting, we'd all live in the open.

Try running a business that employees engineers without accountants. If you had an idea to start a business, the best thing you could do is find an account that has worked on similar business. They have seen all the numbers. The trick to getting a bank loan is to ask your accountant if he knows a good banker that works with local business. They will be friends. At some point the banker will ask the accountant off the record if you have your shit together or not. You think the banker is gonna listen to the engineer? No need to bring up any huge scandals -- most business are boring and most accountants do boring stuff, without getting involved in unethical shit. Your argument boils down to my little speciality is the most important part of a business. EVERYONE thinks that. Every architect i've ever meet rips on engineers. The IT guys think they are gods gift. The hot chicks in marketing laugh at everyone -- "None of these dorks cold ever sell anything". Nurses make fun of doctors incompetence and they love it when they ask in a round about way, with out asking, their opinion. And don't forget legal! Bla, bla, bla.

Even the blow off marketing and management people can get a consulting job where they work for 12 hrs a day for a few years on different projects and then they get their MBA. They do just fine.

 

[NobleSavage]

I just though of a good example. My best friend form HS has an undergrad and masters in engineering from Michigan. He make a little over a $100k his wife has her MBA from Michigan and make twice what he does -- she could make more at a private company - but she like the easy hours at the power plant so she can spend time with her kids.

 

[ksen]

Don't bag on the accountants. They do fairly well. It's business management and marketing that are the goof off degrees. 4 years? You think you can get a good feel for Federal taxes, how to put together financial statements, and do an audit based on FASB rules, in less time? That is a lot of stuff to cover. The trend has been to require an extra year.

The best-paid 10 percent earned roughly $113,740, while the lowest-paid made approximately $40,37

http://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/accountant

That $100K figure is employees. If you have some social skills and can attract new clients a decent firm you will be put on the partner track and you can do a lot better than that.

Yeah, accountants get a lot of hate but it's a valuable skill. Most of it is straightforward stuff, but someone has to know and understand it.

But do you need four years in college for the degree?

Do you need four years in college for any degree?

I bet you can get an online degree in a few weeks if you really apply yourself.

I'm sure you can.

 

[Toni]

I can learn chemistry or history just as well in a quonset hut as in an ivy draped mansion, and if I'm going to school to learn chemistry I don't want to put myself in debt for the next 20 years paying for sports stadiums or subsidizing grown men and women playing with sticks and balls.

You're not going to learn very much chemistry if you never do any lab work. Labs require a good deal of money to purchase and maintain appropriate equipment, aside from supplies and sundries and climate control and so on.

In extreme heat or cold, I question how much actual learning would take place.

I do take your point about not wanting to subsidize sports and sports stadiums. On the other hand, I am a huge fan of the arts and find that performances of all sorts as well as art exhibits greatly enriched my college experience and continue to do so well past my college years.

 

[fromderinside]

Yeah, I'll give you that engineering is a more difficult degree. I never bagged on engineers. But don't underestimate the total amount of info you have to digest to get an accounting degree. You have any idea how big the IRS code is? And that is just a start. Most of the time those laws don't quite fit or are vague: so you have to know how to research the Revenue Rulings to try and figure it out. Financially, my accounting friends have done better than my engineering friends.

Ah accounting... if engineering was like accounting, we'd all live in the open.

Try running a business that employees engineers without accountants. If you had an idea to start a business, the best thing you could do is find an account that has worked on similar business. They have seen all the numbers. The trick to getting a bank loan is to ask your accountant if he knows a good banker that works with local business. They will be friends. At some point the banker will ask the accountant off the record if you have your shit together or not. You think the banker is gonna listen to the engineer? No need to bring up any huge scandals -- most business are boring and most accountants do boring stuff, without getting involved in unethical shit. Your argument boils down to my little speciality is the most important part of a business. EVERYONE thinks that. Every architect i've ever meet rips on engineers. The IT guys think they are gods gift. The hot chicks in marketing laugh at everyone -- "None of these dorks cold ever sell anything". Nurses make fun of doctors incompetence and they love it when they ask in a round about way, with out asking, their opinion. And don't forget legal! Bla, bla, bla.

Even the blow off marketing and management people can get a consulting job where they work for 12 hrs a day for a few years on different projects and then they get their MBA. They do just fine.

What you describe is why we have mental images of accounting clerks (accountants) as that poor fucked up dude in Scrooge toiling with no future for almost nothing. We idolize his boss, the guy who got the Christmas Goose, as an ideal when all he does is take from others to make himself rich. Its not your accountant. Its your computer wiz who writes programs that plays with derivatives of derivatives foisted on an unknowing public by super salespersons who travel in private jets.

As for running a business without accountants, try Boeing who use engineers for everything of consequence. The widget counters and account reconcilers are mostly software.

 

[Axulus]

for running a business without accountants, try Boeing who use engineers for everything of consequence. The widget counters and account reconcilers are mostly software.

You don't have a clue about what you are talking about. Accurately determining the cost drivers of various activities, efficiently tracking costs, allocating those costs properly, having systems that timely report that data on costs in a format that management can easily understand, and finally using all available information to accurately predict costs to fulfill future orders and also how costs are impacted when choosing among various options (what to outsource, what to insource, where to build a new plant, among others) is vital for a global manufacturing co like Boeing.

 

[AthenaAwakened]

A Word on Accounting

Do you need 4 years of college to learn accounting?

Depends on what you want do.

Like any other profession, you have specialization and like any other profession, you don't need to be an expert in every area.

Yes, more is involved than bookkeeping (I can teach a person how to do that in a matter of weeks if not sooner) but it ain't "rocket surgery"



BTW I have an accounting degree. It wasn't a walk in the park, but I also didn't have crawl over broken glass.

 

[NobleSavage]

Is that what I really should be wondering? How has college spending been doing over that same time period that tuition to students has been skyrocketing?

Is there some reason why you believe unlimited funding would not simply be matched with increased spending?

We need wage and price controls! That worked so well for Nixon.
Maybe because historically more government funding has resulted in lower tuition costs to students? Why would that change? And if it was in danger of changing why can't government put strings on their continued funding with progress in lowering student tuition costs?

I presume you can demonstrate that the states with the highest funding levels for colleges also have the lowest tuition costs, based on your above assertions?

Is there some reason why you believe unlimited funding would not simply be matched with increased spending?

I presume you can demonstrate the the states with the highest funding levels for colleges also have the highest increases in spending based on your above assertions?

Given that a 380 percent increase in state spending on college education in the 80's vs the 60's did not result in lower tuition costs; tuition costs in fact increased during that time period (they about doubled), does not give much support for your assertions that state funding levels is the cause of the problem and the solution is to just increase state funding levels.

We need wage and price controls! That worked so well for Nixon.

- - - Updated - - -

Do you need 4 years of college to learn accounting?

Depends on what you want do.

Like any other profession, you have specialization and like any other profession, you don't need to be an expert in every area.

Yes, more is involved than bookkeeping (I can teach a person how to do that in a matter of weeks if not sooner) but it ain't "rocket surgery"



BTW I have an accounting degree. It wasn't a walk in the park, but I also didn't have crawl over broken glass.

Who would have thought, we have the same degree

 

[NobleSavage]

What you describe is why we have mental images of accounting clerks (accountants) as that poor fucked up dude in Scrooge toiling with no future for almost nothing. That is the view I have of most engineers -- toiling away in their cubicle.

As for running a business without accountants, try Boeing who use engineers for everything of consequence. The widget counters and account reconcilers are mostly software.

Management will take care of their own. They will hire engineers to get rid of the engineers.

Boeing who is a global corporation in 15 countries doesn't have accountants? Oh, they are just insignificant from your point of view? Lets look at some of their upper management:

Chairman and Chief Executive Officer: James McNerney, Jr. A native of Providence, R.I., McNerney earned a B.A. degree from Yale University in 1971 and an M.B.A. from Harvard University in 1975. He is married and has five children. He enjoys skiing, golf, hiking and hockey.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Defense, Space & Security, Chadwick holds a Bachelor of Science degree in electrical engineering from Iowa State University and a Master of Business Administration degree from Maryville University in St. Louis. He is a fellow alum!

Bertrand-Marc (Marc) Allen, A Southern California native, Allen received his bachelor’s degree summa cum laude from Princeton University, majoring in political science with a certificate in economics, and received his law degree from Yale Law School.

In April 1996, Downey was named director of Communications for Douglas Aircraft Company in Long Beach, Calif. He returned to St. Louis in March 1997 to lead communications for the military unit. Downey is a graduate of Saint Louis University and holds a bachelor's degree in English, and a creative and professional writing certificate. He served as a public affairs officer in the U.S. Navy Reserve and is a past president of the Boeing Employees Community Fund.

Senior Vice President, Government Operations, The Boeing Company: Keating is a graduate of the University of Scranton, with a B.S. in political science.


J. Michael Luttig,Executive Vice President, General Counsel. Luttig worked at The White House, in the Office of Counsel to the President, first as special assistant to The White House Counsel and then as assistant counsel, from 1981 to 1982. While in The White House, Luttig assisted in the preparation of Justice Sandra Day O'Connor for hearings before the Senate on her nomination to the Supreme Court of the United States.

From 1976 to 1978, Luttig worked at the Supreme Court of the United States in the Office of the Administrative Assistant to the Chief Justice.

He earned his bachelor of arts degree from Washington and Lee University in 1976 and a juris doctorate from the University of Virginia in 1981.

Ok, here is an engineer, Dennis A. Muilenburg Vice Chairman, President and Chief Operating Officer. Muilenburg holds a bachelor's degree in aerospace engineering from Iowa State University and a master's degree in aeronautics and astronautics from the University of Washington.

Diana L. Sands Senior Vice President, Office of Internal Governance: A certified public accountant, Sands has a Master of Business Administration from Northwestern University’s Kellogg Graduate School of Management and a bachelor’s of business administration with an emphasis in accounting from the University of Michigan.

Greg Smith Executive Vice President, Business Development & Strategy Chief Financial Officer, Smith, 48, has extensive operational and financial experience in both the commercial and defense businesses of Boeing over two decades of company service. Smith was formerly Corporate Controller and vice president, Finance, at Boeing beginning in February 2010. As a corporate officer and the company's principal interface with the board of directors' audit committee, Smith was charged with ensuring Boeing's financial disclosures and regulatory compliance were timely, transparent and efficient. (Sounds like he has some accounting training).


Chief Technology Officer, Tracy received a PhD in Engineering (1987) from the University of California-Irvine, and a master's degree and a bachelor's degree in Physics respectively from California State University-Los Angeles (1981) and California State University-Dominguez Hills (1976). Ok, a science guy -- perfect for CTO.

Timothy (Tim) Myers, President, Boeing Capital Corporation: Myers has a bachelor’s degree in accounting and finance as well as a master’s degree in business administration, with a concentration in finance, from California State University at Fullerton.

Raymond L. Conner Vice Chairman, President and Chief Executive Officer, Boeing Commercial Airplanes: Conner joined the company in 1977 as a mechanic on the 727 program. He earned a bachelor’s degree from Central Washington University and a master’s of business administration from the University of Puget Sound.

Stanley A. Deal, Senior Vice President, Commercial Aviation Services: A native of Illinois, Deal holds a Bachelor of Science degree from the University of Illinois and a Master of Business Administration from Pepperdine University.

Delaney earned a bachelor’s degree in aerospace engineering from Hofstra University and a master’s of business administration from the Ecole Superior de Commerce de Toulouse in 2001. Delaney was named an Associate Fellow of the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics (AIAA) in Nov. 2011 and named a Fellow of the AIAA in Nov. 2013.

So an engineer is ok, but not mandatory, as long as they get some business training.

http://www.boeing.com/company/bios/

 

[NobleSavage]

And since Boeing is a publicly traded company they have to hire an accounting firm to audit their books - you know, so investors don't get screwed.

 

[Valjean]

I can learn chemistry or history just as well in a quonset hut as in an ivy draped mansion, and if I'm going to school to learn chemistry I don't want to put myself in debt for the next 20 years paying for sports stadiums or subsidizing grown men and women playing with sticks and balls.

You're not going to learn very much chemistry if you never do any lab work. Labs require a good deal of money to purchase and maintain appropriate equipment, aside from supplies and sundries and climate control and so on.

In extreme heat or cold, I question how much actual learning would take place.

You could set up a modern lab in a quonset hut as easily as you could anywhere else.
Extreme heat or cold? What does this have to do with anything -- apart from the fact that it's easier and cheaper to heat/cool a trailer or quonset hut than a fancy mansion.

 

[dismal]

You're not going to learn very much chemistry if you never do any lab work. Labs require a good deal of money to purchase and maintain appropriate equipment, aside from supplies and sundries and climate control and so on.

In extreme heat or cold, I question how much actual learning would take place.

You could set up a modern lab in a quonset hut as easily as you could anywhere else.

But it's hard to put a 3 story rock climbing wall in a quonset hut.

 

[Toni]

You're not going to learn very much chemistry if you never do any lab work. Labs require a good deal of money to purchase and maintain appropriate equipment, aside from supplies and sundries and climate control and so on.

In extreme heat or cold, I question how much actual learning would take place.

You could set up a modern lab in a quonset hut as easily as you could anywhere else.
Extreme heat or cold? What does this have to do with anything -- apart from the fact that it's easier and cheaper to heat/cool a trailer or quonset hut than a fancy mansion.

Actually, no you could not. Do you actually know what a quonset hut is? How they were constructed? WIRED? Plumbed? Do you have any idea what the requirements for a well functioning modern chemistry, biology or physics laboratory are? Unless you are advocating taking an inadequate structure and spending hundreds of thousands of dollars and likely a great deal more in getting the building up to par, I'm sorry but you have no idea what you are talking about.

What's this 'fancy mansion' crappola? Some pseudo conservative ideological claptrap that says that publicly funded structures must be ugly and ill built?

I've been on quite a few university campuses, from Harvard on down to the local community college. And in quite a number of buildings which housed science laboratories. Also a few mansions, none of which were on university campuses, although I have been on campuses where there were indeed 'mansions' although none of these housed classrooms or laboratories.

I also think you know very little about heating and cooling.

 

[J842P]

You could set up a modern lab in a quonset hut as easily as you could anywhere else.
Extreme heat or cold? What does this have to do with anything -- apart from the fact that it's easier and cheaper to heat/cool a trailer or quonset hut than a fancy mansion.

Actually, no you could not. Do you actually know what a quonset hut is? How they were constructed? WIRED? Plumbed? Do you have any idea what the requirements for a well functioning modern chemistry, biology or physics laboratory are? Unless you are advocating taking an inadequate structure and spending hundreds of thousands of dollars and likely a great deal more in getting the building up to par, I'm sorry but you have no idea what you are talking about.

What's this 'fancy mansion' crappola? Some pseudo conservative ideological claptrap that says that publicly funded structures must be ugly and ill built?

I've been on quite a few university campuses, from Harvard on down to the local community college. And in quite a number of buildings which housed science laboratories. Also a few mansions, none of which were on university campuses, although I have been on campuses where there were indeed 'mansions' although none of these housed classrooms or laboratories.

I also think you know very little about heating and cooling.

To be fair, most of the "fancy mansion" types of things on University campuses are not academic buildings where labs and classrooms are located, at least not in my experience. Actually, I'm trying to find some sort of breakdown for where a university spends most of their development money. I do know fitness centers can get quite extravagant.

 

[Toni]

Actually, no you could not. Do you actually know what a quonset hut is? How they were constructed? WIRED? Plumbed? Do you have any idea what the requirements for a well functioning modern chemistry, biology or physics laboratory are? Unless you are advocating taking an inadequate structure and spending hundreds of thousands of dollars and likely a great deal more in getting the building up to par, I'm sorry but you have no idea what you are talking about.

What's this 'fancy mansion' crappola? Some pseudo conservative ideological claptrap that says that publicly funded structures must be ugly and ill built?

I've been on quite a few university campuses, from Harvard on down to the local community college. And in quite a number of buildings which housed science laboratories. Also a few mansions, none of which were on university campuses, although I have been on campuses where there were indeed 'mansions' although none of these housed classrooms or laboratories.

I also think you know very little about heating and cooling.

To be fair, most of the "fancy mansion" types of things on University campuses are not academic buildings where labs and classrooms are located, at least not in my experience. Actually, I'm trying to find some sort of breakdown for where a university spends most of their development money. I do know fitness centers can get quite extravagant.

I'd like an example of a 'fancy mansion' type thing on a University campus. And specifically, one built in the last 50 years. Older buildings, most of which were built like a brick, as they say, are often more architecturally elaborate, with columns, great care as to the aesthetics of the building, and built with the intention to impress upon the community the tradition and the gravitas of the institution.

Hell, I lived in a dorm built in the late 60's or very early 70's and it was...pretty basic. But much nicer than the old buildings which were left over from WWII and repurposed as dormitories. That was before the days of dormitory based fitness centers. We were fancy schmancy with a small study library.

I agree that fitness centers are often quite extravagant. So are all sports facilities. Academic facilities, dormitories: not so much. Some administration buildings I have seen are quite well appointed. Technology, which has become the new way to spend enormous amounts of money does indeed consume a lot of money. Here I am referring to generalized technology and not specific to any type of classroom. Although properly equipping laboratory space for students is not inexpensive. And if you are talking about a research university, well, the cost can be quite large. Not so large as a new football stadium (which, btw, must also have the latest in technology so that donors will keep attending games and contributing to the university fund.)

But my strong suspicion, based upon what I know about university structures in my state is that administration has grown enormously as the student body has remained relatively stagnant (and is on the brink of decreasing) and as state financial support as a portion of the cost of tuition has decreased rather dramatically in the last 20 years or so. It seems likely that this is true in other states as well.

Back in the olden days, when I was first an undergrad, it was a rare student who worked more than a work study job, at most, during the school year. I paid almost my entire way on scholarships and what I could earn in summers as my parents refused to allow us to work during the school year. I did some odd jobs to earn some spending money while I was in school. Of course, I lived cheap as we all did. If you had an expensive stereo system (a few hundred dollars), you were rich. We all wore jeans and tshirts, ate cheap pizza on Sundays when the cafeteria was closed and spent a smaller portion of our money on beer (or drugs if that was your thing.) Few students had their own vehicle and those were typically discouraged from being on campus, where all first and second year students were required to live and 3rd and 4th year students were strongly encouraged to live. Most did, actually. There were even apartments for graduate students. None of these were 'nice' but all had working plumbing, and pretty decent heat. No AC. Phones and bathrooms were shared on dorm floors (but not grad housing) but we had to pay for 'long distance' which was almost anything off campus.

And yeah, it was uphill both ways, and the snow was over our heads, too. But most of us graduated with little or no debt. My husband had student loans whose payments were under $20/month. I don't know any modern university student who doesn't spend more than that for beer. Or laundry. Or coffee.

Of course, I was convinced that if I could ever earn $50K/year, I would be really rich.

 

[Valjean]

Interesting article in today's BBC news. American students opting for German Universities:
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32821678

 

[ronburgundy]

Interesting article in today's BBC news. American students opting for German Universities:
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-32821678

Yeah, it cannot be that Germany has low tuition because of their highly socialist policies with free tuition via highly progressive taxation. It must be that they keep their tuition low via only building modest "huts" and non-opulent University facilities, such as these:

 

[Valjean]

So, with a more socialized system we can have our cake and eat it too.
Education is an investment, not a drain on the public coffers.