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Colorado club shooter is non-binary, CNN repeatedly misgenders them.

Metaphor

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Content warning: gender normativity, misgendering, transphobia, sass.

The Colorado club shooter is non-binary, according to their lawyers, and CNN's article mentioning it has been properly pronouned.

It was a different story when CNN talking heads were discussing the revelation live, however.

"I don't know what to say about it, that's not anything we had heard from his background".

"I don't know what to say about that, that's what he is now saying".

"That's the least of his problems" (from a different clip of the same roundtable).

CNN then doubled down on its transphobia and reinforcement of gender expression normativity by speaking to a transwoman who said (of the suspect) "it was obvious from the mugshot, that's a man...that is not a non-binary person...in no way, shape, or form could they appear as a woman the next day". (partial credit for correct pronoun usage, points off for implying gender cannot be fluid and for reinforcing a stereotype of what a non-binary person looks like).
 

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Content warning: gender normativity, misgendering, transphobia, sass.

The Colorado club shooter is non-binary, according to their lawyers, and CNN's article mentioning it has been properly pronouned.

It was a different story when CNN talking heads were discussing the revelation live, however.

"I don't know what to say about it, that's not anything we had heard from his background".

"I don't know what to say about that, that's what he is now saying".

"That's the least of his problems" (from a different clip of the same roundtable).

CNN then doubled down on its transphobia and reinforcement of gender expression normativity by speaking to a transwoman who said (of the suspect) "it was obvious from the mugshot, that's a man...that is not a non-binary person...in no way, shape, or form could they appear as a woman the next day". (partial credit for correct pronoun usage, points off for implying gender cannot be fluid and for reinforcing a stereotype of what a non-binary person looks like).
Regardless of whether they are identifying in bad faith, it seems correct to put them in a prison only with people whom they cannot impregnate, and who are exposed to a commensurate level of hormones.

At that point, try them as a person who walked into a club and murdered folks.

Nothing else really matters to the equation and if they want to be called "she" I see no problem with it
 

senor boogie woogie

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Ok......

The very similar terms they/them are already in the English language. It means more than one person. "They went to a party.", which denotes that more than one person went to the party. "It was them who robbed my house!" Again, in the context of the word, them denotes more than one person.

Saying like in the title.. "

"Colorado club shooter is non-binary, CNN repeatedly misgenders them...."​

or​

"At that point, try them as a person who walked into a club and murdered folks."

Would mean that CNN has "misgendered" more than one person? Because that is the meaning of them (and they). So the average reader or listener gets to be confused. The second sentence is also confusing to the normal reader. Them? I thought there was only one shooter. Because they/them denotes more than one person or more than one objects.

It does not matter what the shooter thinks, this is a MALE, and as such is a HE, HIM and HIS. When HE is convicted of this crime, HE will be put in a Male prison. Because, he is a male. HE can call himself "non-binary" all he wants. Since from looking at HIS pictures that HE does not look very strong or a fighter, HE might end up being a woman in the prison when he is passed around from inmate to inmate. They might even make HIM wear a wig, high heels and makeup. Does not change HIS chromosomes

I hated this happened, but at least it was a member of "LGBT", if it wasn't, we would be hearing about this for weeks on end. Since it is LGBT person, it will quickly be buried because it doesnt follow the narrative.

How about instead of THEM, which is already a word, we use "Booga Booga"? "A Booga Booga shot up a gay bar last night....."
 

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<whinging about anodyne they, and misgendering>
"Waaaah, people are suggesting a use of language that takes away my excuse to assume labels for others".

The anodyne they/them is old and useful, and even were it not as old as it is, it would still be useful and a valid use of language.

Your whinging demands that people use language and classify the world as you do on black and white absolutes is silly. Biology is messier than that, I'm afraid.

It is entirely possible to have a conversation about not putting them where they can impregnate people, without making armchair amateur declarations about their biology.

You don't even need to call them by feminine pronouns.

You don't even need to believe they are acting in good faith.

For all we know they are a straight cis male who hates trans people and shot up the gay club with the intent of smearing trans people by identifying as such a person.

But still, we can afford them that much, and letting them have the consequences of being either being castrated and put on estrogen OR being housed with all the other people who pose a pregnancy risk to those who can get pregnant.

We can do that without calling them a "man". All that bad faith does here is make them look like a self-destroying clown, and screeching whinges of folks who want to pretend like sexual differentiation is an all-or-nothing strict binary are just that.
 

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We're taking this on the word of a defendant's lawyer???

That was the first thing that popped into my head.
"How do know when a lawyer is lying?"
"Their lips are moving."

I can well imagine any reasonably competent defense lawyers pulling out all the stops on this one.
Tom
 

Shadowy Man

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We're taking this on the word of a defendant's lawyer???
Did the lawyer say it in court or just to the press?

As we have found out well in the last couple of years that lawyers have no problem lying outside the courtroom but definitely act differently when their careers are potentially on the line.
 

senor boogie woogie

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I have no idea what “whinging” is. I take it that it’s a term used against someone whose words you don’t like

Biology isn’t “messy” at all. In humans, lower animals and plants there is male and female. That’s it. In humans the chromosomes we get at conception determines what our sex is.

There are only two sexes, female and male. One cannot change their sex. One can hire an unscrupulous “doctor” to add and remove body parts and do some cosmetic surgery and shoot the person up with testosterone or estrogen but the person’s chromosomes still determine the person’s biological sex. I think most of us learned this in 7th grade science.

I nor the reader or listener of the news should be confused over “they/them” as in “They shot up the gay club. They got the gun from a gun club. They went to college before dropping out.” The term “they/them” denotes two or more people. Again, this is a male who will go to a male prison.

The MAN who is the suspect of this murder did change HIS name. Do we really need a term for everything? Deadnaming? If HE wants to be named Polly Farthead Poopypants, so be it.

I still say Booga Booga is much better than they/them since they/them are already words in English that mean something else.
 

TomC

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Biology isn’t “messy” at all.
Also, biology isn't much relevant to pronoun usage under most circumstances.

For most of human history sex and gender were inextricably linked. Things were primitive in a raft of ways. That's one of them. Our language norms developed then.
But that was then and this is now. Sorry if you find the modern world complex in ways that make you uncomfortable. There's lots of things about it I don't like either.

One biggy is "How did American conservatives become the party of kissing Russian ass?"
Tom
 

Oleg

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Sorry if you find the modern world complex in ways that make you uncomfortable.
But words have meaning. If the meaning of words can so easily be charged to fit a political ideology, then language becomes incoherent. Maybe that’s the point.
5a1+John+Tenniel+Humpty+Dumpty.jpg
 

Politesse

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. I think most of us learned this in 7th grade science
Unless you took 7th grade science in 1904, what you were taught was an inaccurate presentation of what was by then known to the scientific community. There is no scientific rationale for defining only two chromosomal patterns, when variations have been empirically observed, essentially for as long as scientists learned how to look for them. Our knowledge of sex chromosome "abnormalities", in fact, well predates the discovery of DNA; the convenience of sex differences occupying the 23rd chromosome meant that they could identify the sex chromosomes by length. And it became immediately clear that apparent sex and chromosomal sex weren't synonyms for all individuals, let alone socially ascribed gender attributes. Neither that all humans have an XX or XY pattern resulting in an analogous apparent sex - these two patterns describes only about 98% of live births. The rest of us exhibit some degree of intersex characteristics, often unbeknownst to those who exhibit them until they try for a pregnancy or take a 23 and Me. And intersexual characteristics are only one of many reasons why a person might identify as transgender or nonbinary.
 

Politesse

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For most of human history sex and gender were inextricably linked. Things were primitive in a raft of ways
Even such a statement only makes since if one is either deliberately excluding gender trinary and quadrenary cultures from "human history", or is simply unaware that they are, and have for a very long time been, as much a part of human history as gender binary cultures. Victorian attitudes toward sex hold a lot of sway on the popular perspective on "biology" in the US and Europe, but they were never the product of any sort of true global consensus. In truth, the relationship between sex and gender has always been "messy" as senor boogie puts it, even since long before there was any sort of organized international study of sex differentiation.
 

thebeave

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I think the shooter is probably lying about being non-binary. There seems to be no evidence of him declaring that prior to the shooting. Probably did so on the advice of his lawyer, so as to try to avoid additional hate crime charges and perhaps gain some sympathy from a jury. Proving that he is non-binary is going to be problemetic for them though. Sadly, he may get away with it, given the current climate that if someone says they identify as <fill-in-the-blank> then you must believe them and respect their pronoun choice, lest you get branded a bigot or hater.
 

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I just clicked on the link @Metaphor posted.

Damn. It actually made feel some sympathy for the guy. If that link is even mostly true, WTF?
Where does family dysfunction end and mental illness begin?
Tom
 

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I just clicked on the link @Metaphor posted.

Damn. It actually made feel some sympathy for the guy. If that link is even mostly true, WTF?
Where does family dysfunction end and mental illness begin?
Tom
I don't understand why you think they are separate?

Tons of dysfunction and tons of mental health issues going back at least a generation and very likely a few.

That said, barring the shooting, I've seen worse IRL.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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Content warning: gender normativity, misgendering, transphobia, sass.

The Colorado club shooter is non-binary, according to their lawyers, and CNN's article mentioning it has been properly pronouned.

It was a different story when CNN talking heads were discussing the revelation live, however.

"I don't know what to say about it, that's not anything we had heard from his background".

"I don't know what to say about that, that's what he is now saying".

"That's the least of his problems" (from a different clip of the same roundtable).

CNN then doubled down on its transphobia and reinforcement of gender expression normativity by speaking to a transwoman who said (of the suspect) "it was obvious from the mugshot, that's a man...that is not a non-binary person...in no way, shape, or form could they appear as a woman the next day". (partial credit for correct pronoun usage, points off for implying gender cannot be fluid and for reinforcing a stereotype of what a non-binary person looks like).
I’m sorry you were bothered so badly by this. So much to the point that it makes you over look the horror that was the mass murder that only by luck was there someone skilled enough to stop the attack, many more would have been murdered.
 

TomC

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Even such a statement only makes since if one is either deliberately excluding gender trinary and quadrenary cultures from "human history", or is simply unaware that they are, and have for a very long time been, as much a part of human history as gender binary cultures.

Must be nice up there in your ivory tower, protected from the reality we 99%ers live in.

I'm trying to explain why proper pronoun usage is gendered, not sexed. Also that public restrooms are sexed, not gendered.

From you and Jarhyn to Oleg and Metaphor, the number of people who seem more attached to their own opinions and views than functional civility are legion.
Tom
 

Loren Pechtel

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Until we have a better picture of the situation I don't see how we can properly assign pronouns in this case.
 

Metaphor

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. I think most of us learned this in 7th grade science
Unless you took 7th grade science in 1904, what you were taught was an inaccurate presentation of what was by then known to the scientific community. There is no scientific rationale for defining only two chromosomal patterns, when variations have been empirically observed, essentially for as long as scientists learned how to look for them. Our knowledge of sex chromosome "abnormalities", in fact, well predates the discovery of DNA; the convenience of sex differences occupying the 23rd chromosome meant that they could identify the sex chromosomes by length. And it became immediately clear that apparent sex and chromosomal sex weren't synonyms for all individuals, let alone socially ascribed gender attributes. Neither that all humans have an XX or XY pattern resulting in an analogous apparent sex - these two patterns describes only about 98% of live births. The rest of us exhibit some degree of intersex characteristics, often unbeknownst to those who exhibit them until they try for a pregnancy or take a 23 and Me. And intersexual characteristics are only one of many reasons why a person might identify as transgender or nonbinary.
There are only two sexes, Politesse, because there are only two gamete types in humans. There is no third gamete type.
 

Metaphor

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Even such a statement only makes since if one is either deliberately excluding gender trinary and quadrenary cultures from "human history", or is simply unaware that they are, and have for a very long time been, as much a part of human history as gender binary cultures.

Must be nice up there in your ivory tower, protected from the reality we 99%ers live in.

I'm trying to explain why proper pronoun usage is gendered, not sexed. Also that public restrooms are sexed, not gendered.

From you and Jarhyn to Oleg and Metaphor, the number of people who seem more attached to their own opinions and views than functional civility are legion.
Tom
You are simply incorrect about pronouns, TomC. Pronoun usage wasn't secretly 'gendered' in the past for humans in English. It was based on sex.
 

Metaphor

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We're taking this on the word of a defendant's lawyer???
Did the lawyer say it in court or just to the press?
Ahead of the hearing, attorneys for Aldrich submitted a court filing stating the suspect identifies as nonbinary. “They use they-them pronouns, and for the purposes of all formal filings, will be addressed as Mx. Aldrich,” the court document noted.
 

Bomb#20

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Saying like in the title.. "
"Colorado club shooter is non-binary, CNN repeatedly misgenders them...."
or
"At that point, try them as a person who walked into a club and murdered folks."

Would mean that CNN has "misgendered" more than one person?
Nope, it means CNN and the previous posters misnumbered the above person. Number and gender are two different things.
 

Bomb#20

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Until we have a better picture of the situation I don't see how we can properly assign pronouns in this case.
What pronouns are proper to assign depends on the purpose for which you're speaking. Some people use language for communication; if that's your purpose then one set of pronouns is proper. On the other hand, if your purpose for using language is Robin Williams's, then which pronouns are proper depends on which woman you are aiming to woo.

But for the context of this thread, the main purpose of language appears to be tribal identification.

And the Gileadites took the passages of Jordan before the Ephraimites: and it was so, that when those Ephraimites which were escaped said, Let me go over; that the men of Gilead said unto him, Art thou an Ephraimite? If he said, Nay; Then said they unto him, Say now Shibboleth: and he said Sibboleth: for he could not frame to pronounce it right. Then they took him, and slew him at the passages of Jordan: and there fell at that time of the Ephraimites forty and two thousand.

- Judges 12:5–6​
 

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Once again, another important misstep in the world brought to the attention of Internet Infidels: a persistent misuse of a pronoun to describe an alleged mass murderer by a news organization.
 

TomC

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You are simply incorrect about pronouns, TomC. Pronoun usage wasn't secretly 'gendered' in the past for humans in English. It was based on sex.
No, pronoun usage norms were developed before the distinction between sex and gender was generally made.

For the overwhelming majority today, sex and gender are still linked. But not necessarily, so to being basically social means taking cues, rather than deciding for yourself what you prefer to use in the way of pronouns.

This is not rocket science.
Tom
 

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Sorry if you find the modern world complex in ways that make you uncomfortable.
But words have meaning. If the meaning of words can so easily be charged to fit a political ideology, then language becomes incoherent. Maybe that’s the point.
The old meanings were doubleplusungood. Sorry, I mean Emmanuel Goldstein's meanings are doubleplusungood. Gender has always meant gender identity. Doubleplusgood people have always been at war with sex-based pronouns.

That's easy. Progressives are masters; unbelievers are dhimmis.
 

Metaphor

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You are simply incorrect about pronouns, TomC. Pronoun usage wasn't secretly 'gendered' in the past for humans in English. It was based on sex.
No, pronoun usage norms were developed before the distinction between sex and gender was generally made.
That is exactly the point. It was based on sex, TomC, precisely because the concept of 'gender identity' did not exist. This did not present a problem, because everybody knew what sex was.

For the overwhelming majority today, sex and gender are still linked. But not necessarily, so to being basically social means taking cues, rather than deciding for yourself what you prefer to use in the way of pronouns.

This is not rocket science.
You are quite correct it isn't rocket science, which is why your insistence on a falsehood seems so odd.
 

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Once again, another important misstep in the world brought to the attention of Internet Infidels: a persistent misuse of a pronoun to describe an alleged mass murderer by a news organization.
Misgendering is violence.
Not in the rational sense of the term. But I was thanking you for bringing this vital story to everyone's attention.
 

Metaphor

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That is exactly the point. It was based on sex, TomC, precisely because the concept of 'gender identity' did not exist.
That's just not accurate. Pronoun usage wasn't based specifically on either one because the distinction wasn't made by the primitive people who shaped the language.
Now decent folk do make the distinction, at least for the purposes of conversation.
This did not present a problem, because everybody knew what sex was.
"Everybody knew" is a ridiculous standard. Everybody knew that the earth was flat and the sun scooted along beneath a blue dome. Everybody knew that God created everything about 6000 years ago. "Nobody realized" is very different from "everybody knew".
Tom
 

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It appears straight, LGBQ and whatever acronyms there are, anybody can go crazy and shoot people.
 

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You are simply incorrect about pronouns, TomC. Pronoun usage wasn't secretly 'gendered' in the past for humans in English. It was based on sex.
No, pronoun usage norms were developed before the distinction between sex and gender was generally made.
Actually it's the other way around. A thousand years ago the concepts were quite distinct, and English pronoun usage followed gender, with only an erratic link between gender and sex, just as in related languages like German, where the word for "girl" is neuter. Pronoun usage gradually changed to consistently match sex in the 12th and 13th centuries. The use of "gender" to mean "sex" began later, around six hundred years ago, and that only happened at all as a reaction to the shift in pronoun usage -- when "sex" and "gender" stopped referring to distinguishable categories, English speakers gradually forgot they'd ever meant different things. (Of course, the backdrop to all of this is that "gender" was a technical term borrowed from French, of interest mostly to grammarians. An English speaker who wasn't a monk was about as likely to say "gender" as "azimuth".)
 

Metaphor

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That is exactly the point. It was based on sex, TomC, precisely because the concept of 'gender identity' did not exist.
That's just not accurate. Pronoun usage wasn't based specifically on either one
It was based specifically and only on sex, for humans, in English.

It cannot have been based on a concept that did not yet exist. It is literally impossible for that to have been the case.

because the distinction wasn't made by the primitive people who shaped the language.
You are correct. There was no concept of gender identity. That is why pronoun usage in English was based solely on sex.

Now decent folk do make the distinction, at least for the purposes of conversation.
What 'decent' folk decide to do now is a matter of debate, but I am correcting your misunderstanding of historical pronoun usage in English, for humans.

This did not present a problem, because everybody knew what sex was.
"Everybody knew" is a ridiculous standard.
Whether you think it is ridiculous or not, pronouns for humans were based on sex.

Everybody knew that the earth was flat and the sun scooted along beneath a blue dome. Everybody knew that God created everything about 6000 years ago. "Nobody realized" is very different from "everybody knew".
Tom
Humans made language. Humans decided that those that society agreed were males get 'he', and females get 'she'. There is literally no way for humans to have "got it wrong" because they got to decide the relationship between the signifier and the signified.

Your phantasia that 'he' and 'she' did refer to gender identity all along is in conflict with the facts, and your moral sensibility that it should have referred to gender identity all along is an expression of your moral opinion, not a fact about historical usage.
 

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That is why pronoun usage in English was based solely on sex.
Key word here is "was".

pronouns for humans were based on sex.
Key word here is "we're".

Humans decided that those that society agreed were males get 'he', and females get 'she'.
Key word here is "decided".

your moral sensibility that it should have referred to gender identity all along is an expression of your moral opinion, not a fact about historical usage.
Key word here is "should have".
My "moral sensibility" here is based on people in the here and now getting along with each other. Historical usage doesn't matter to my moral sensibility any more than historical science concerning race or geography.
It just doesn't.
Tom
 

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I have no idea what “whinging” is
LMGTFY


Biology isn’t “messy” at all
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

Keep in mind I work in a bioassay company and read up regularly on advances in endocrinology and differentiations in human development. I'm also not the only one here that reads up on it... I'm probably not even the one on the forums with the best knowledge.

chromosomes still determine the person’s biological sex. I think most of us learned this in 7th grade science.
And something that you learn in... Well, usually college, is that what you learned in 7th grade is a gross oversimplification, unto the point where almost all of it is laughably wrong.

In some ways the chromosomes advise the function of other systems. I say "advise" because it really is just that, a recommendation.

Methylation of genetic regions, autoimmune responses by the gestational parent, genetic predisposition for or against hormonal reception, chimeric cells, even expression frequencies of specific codes in the DNA can all impact what precipitates from those chromosomes.

As a result you can end up with XY folks with functional uteruses and a majority of testicular tissue, who produce both sperms and who carry eggs, but that's not all... Whose children do not appear as theirs even though they clearly gave birth to and produced the eggs of those children.

The tissue of the gonads itself is separate from the formation of brain tissues which define the subtle differences of the brain which primes the organism for growing up with various behaviors and which inform self-image, and this also reflects differentiated function. There are multiple parts of the brain which can form slightly differently, and this is where I expect gender comes from.

I think it is rather cavalier to proclaim a binary when there are such messy shades of grey. People said the same bullshit you did, but about homosexuals, claiming that it was not possible for someone to be born gay, too, that it was a choice rather than an intrinsic quality of the mind.

Finally, this is again separate from any structures in the brain and body which differentiate from adolescent hormone exposure.

I nor the reader or listener of the news should be confused over “they/them” as in “They shot up the gay club.
No you should not. The context in the title gives singular "shooter", so anyone whom the public education system has not utterly failed should be fine.

If you are confused by this, I recommend doing your very best to surpass a 5th grade reading level.
 

Metaphor

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That is why pronoun usage in English was based solely on sex.
Key word here is "was".
So then you admit your characterisation of the history of pronoun usage for humans is false.

pronouns for humans were based on sex.
Key word here is "we're".
I am talking about historical usage.

We haven't had the conversation about whether we should or could jettison historical usage for a top-down, prescribed approach.

Humans decided that those that society agreed were males get 'he', and females get 'she'.
Key word here is "decided".
Of course they did.

your moral sensibility that it should have referred to gender identity all along is an expression of your moral opinion, not a fact about historical usage.
Key word here is "should have".
My "moral sensibility" here is based on people in the here and now getting along with each other. Historical usage doesn't matter to my moral sensibility any more than historical science concerning race or geography.
It just doesn't.
Tom
Whether pronoun usage for humans should be changed to refer to gender identity is a matter of debate. It is not a given.

For example, progressive white people and academic Latinos have been trying to shove 'Latinx' down the throats of Latino people for years. They do it because upholding gender ideology is a more important value to them than avoiding imposing an obscene and open case of language imperialism. An elite cabal can tray and decide how language evolves, and they might even succeed, but that isn't usually how language evolves.
 

Metaphor

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I think it is rather cavalier to proclaim a binary when there are such messy shades of grey.

Sex is binary, Jarhyn. There are two, and only two, gamete types in humans. There is no third reproductive strategy.

People said the same bullshit you did, but about homosexuals, claiming that it was not possible for someone to be born gay, too,

It is impossible. Babies don't have a sexual orientation.


No you should not. The context in the title gives singular "shooter", so anyone whom the public education system has not utterly failed should be fine.

No. The pronoun has introduced ambiguities. For example, some news stories are ambiguous about whether 'they' refers to the shooter alone, or the shooter and his legal team.
 

Jarhyn

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There is no third reproductive strategy
And "bald is not a hair style..."

My own reproductive strategy is indirect and information based.

Your reproductive strategy is more likely "won't."

It is impossible. Babies don't have a sexual orientation.
They have the seeds of one. As has been observed, developmental exposures in the womb (also to autoimmune situations) are comorbid with homosexuality, implying a gestational stage to the development of sexuality.

Finally, this is again separate from any structures in the brain and body which differentiate from adolescent hormone exposure
Further, it has been observed that some folks will find changes arise of their sexuality which are dependent on their hormone exposure in adulthood.

The pronoun has introduced ambiguities.
See my comments about reading level.
 

Metaphor

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There is no third reproductive strategy

They have the seeds of one. As has been observed, developmental exposures in the womb (also to autoimmune situations) are comorbid with homosexuality, implying a gestational stage to the development of sexuality.

True. But they're not born gay, or straight. They're just not.

The pronoun has introduced ambiguities.

Sure Jan.
 

TomC

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So then you admit your characterisation of the history of pronoun usage for humans is false.
Nope. You're managing to misunderstand.
I'm saying I don't care about it enough to learn about ancient language usage.
I am talking about historical usage.
Which is utterly and completely irrelevant to my point, which is entirely about the modern situation and that language changes to fit.

We haven't had the conversation about whether we should or could jettison historical usage for a top-down, prescribed approach.
Speaking for myself, there's nothing "top-down" about it. I prefer that people recognize other people's personhood and personal preferences concerning things as unimportant as pronouns in casual conversation. I flat out don't care if somebody is sexed male. If they go by the name Betsy I'm gonna use feminine gendered pronouns unless they express a preference for male pronouns.

I just don't care enough about ancient speech patterns to let them get in the way of my present concerns and interests.

Whether pronoun usage for humans should be changed to refer to gender identity is a matter of debate. It is not a given.

Sorry dude, I don't care much about your pearl clutching about changes to polite language norms. I don't care what linguists say people used to take for granted in the way of pronoun usage. I'll do whatever I damn well please. That is use whatever pronouns or gendered references another human prefers, regardless of sex or language precedents.

Bless your Heart.*

Tom

* in case you don't understand modern American English well enough to grasp what that means @southernhybrid could better explain it, because she's a lot nicer than I am
 

Metaphor

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But they're not born gay, or straight. They're just not.
A bold statement with no basis of fact behind it gets you nowhere.
Sure Jan.

Some babies are born straight. They have decided they know which sex they are sexually attracted to. Others are born gay. They too have decided.

Honestly there's an upper limit to the nonsense you can put out Jarhyn. At least, I hope there's an upper limit.
 

Metaphor

Čarobnjak iz Oza
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Nope. You're managing to misunderstand.
I'm saying I don't care about it enough to learn about ancient language usage.

You sure claim a lot of things about it for somebody who does 'not care'.

Which is utterly and completely irrelevant to my point, which is entirely about the modern situation and that language changes to fit.

I am perfectly happy to talk about the modern situation, as long as I've corrected the record on your misunderstanding of the historical situation.


Speaking for myself, there's nothing "top-down" about it. I prefer that people recognize other people's personhood

You have advanced the stasis of the argument without both sides accepting premises. I do not accept your premise that pronouns that correspond to sex fail to acknowledge 'personhood'.


and personal preferences concerning things as unimportant as pronouns in casual conversation. I flat out don't care if somebody is sexed male. If they go by the name Betsy I'm gonna use feminine gendered pronouns unless they express a preference for male pronouns.

That's your choice. I'm not the boss of you.

Sorry dude, I don't care much about your pearl clutching about changes to polite language norms. I don't care what linguists say people used to take for granted in the way of pronoun usage. I'll do whatever I damn well please. That is use whatever pronouns or gendered references another human prefers, regardless of sex or language precedents.

You do you. I've not suggested otherwise. I want others to stop telling me what to say, under threat of government violence.
 

Jarhyn

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But they're not born gay, or straight. They're just not.
A bold statement with no basis of fact behind it gets you nowhere.
Sure Jan.

Some babies are born straight. They have decided they know which sex they are sexually attracted to. Others are born gay. They too have decided.

Honestly there's an upper limit to the nonsense you can put out Jarhyn. At least, I hope there's an upper limit.
Everyone is born primed with a template or heuristic of who they will eventually be sexually attracted to.

It isn't about something they decide, it's about something they are intrinsically, and that is generally something they are well on their way to becoming even at birth.

In that way, some babies are born straight, some are born gay, some are born bisexual some are born asexual. Some will have sexuality grow into them as a function of their born predelictions and experience.

The only deciding they get to do about that is generally whether they will accept the sexuality they find that they have or whether they fight it in a manner most unhealthy.
 
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