Communism and Capitalism: True Opposites?

[fromderinside]

what were they? could you give concrete examples of free socialism?

Jist talking about US history and tradition. Barn raising, most rural co-operatives, many early education setups in US. neighbors bringing in harvests, community bakeries, library systems, fire departments, etc, ect, etc, .... Example still are being created in cities and even within businesses. Bosses who see the need to keep good employees grant space and furnishings for nursery and preschool set ups on site. to have clinics on site, to share fractions of income with workers beyond that which contracted for employment.

 

[fromderinside]

All three are both an economic system and a social/political philosophy as to the purpose of govt.

Anarchists oppose any govt, libertarians may accept some govt such as police, capitalists may accept forms of state assistance like unemployment support, communists want cradle to grave support, a utopia of sorts.

I disagree most emphatically.

Capitalism is an economic, not a social philosophy. Democracy is a social, not economic philosophy. Socialism is primary a philosophical sub topic within the range of political philosophies. Communism solves marketing by putting wealth in the hands of the people so it is both economic and political philosophy. Anarchism and libertarianism are primarily political philosophies which some have cobbled to socialism and democracy.

What one does with respect to other persons is political. What one does with others with respect to property is primarily economic.

I see things from the views of Plato, Smith, and Marx.

Early america, for instance, had banks that minted their own money in as small as a community which when later constitutionalized was provided for both state and federal action and control which was settled by Jackson until the early 20th century when the feds brought order to things.

 

[skepticalbip]

what were they? could you give concrete examples of free socialism?

Jist talking about US history and tradition. Barn raising, most rural co-operatives, many early education setups in US. neighbors bringing in harvests, community bakeries, library systems, fire departments, etc, ect, etc, .... Example still are being created in cities and even within businesses. Bosses who see the need to keep good employees grant space and furnishings for nursery and preschool set ups on site. to have clinics on site, to share fractions of income with workers beyond that which contracted for employment.

You seem to be confusing community cooperation for a national governmental system.

 

[steve_bank]

Conservative capitalists and libertarians have the mystical image of a 19th century western ranch owner who needs no one and no help sitting on the porch with his rifle.

Those at the top may think they did it by themselves but they did not. Roads, water, education. The libertarian cognitive dissonance.

The system today I so complex without social programs there will be instability for those at the top. The conservatives in congress are eater posturing or slimly do not grasp the foundation of stability.

here will be a point where people will say what is the point of working if there is no guarnrtee of retirement or loosing a home because of a downturn.

The question is if we will change in a reasoned fashion or if it wull take collapse to evolve to something else.

I was a card carrying member of the free market club as an engineer and saw the positive side. But it is running its course.

 

[steve_bank]

^ ^ ^

It is true that Marx's idea of a communist state is an absurd delusion and why I called it Marx's wet dream. However socialism as an economic system has been tried several times. A socialist state only needs a strong central government to confiscate 'the means of production'. Cambodia under Pol Pot is the most extreme example I can think of but then there is the USSR under Stalin, China under Mao, North Korea under the Kims, Cuba under Fidel, and lately there is Venezuela.

Ironically, even Marx thought socialism was a bad system but he saw it as a necessary step to reach his ideal of a communist state.

The capitalism of Marx's time is not the capitalism of today. Life was brutal at the bottom. He thought there would be a world wide uprising,. What happened was democracy and a change to a different form of economics.
According to my poli sci prof Marx is considered the greatest social scientist of all time. He accurately defined the times and the soial economic forces at work.

Whether he was delusional is matter of view. He was corrupted and used by Lennin and Mao. From a Vietnamese I know Ho Chi Min and his successors have been personality cults, as was Mao and Stalin. Communist collectiviz zation dialed, probably due to a central incompact authority and rigid ideology.

There could be communism with a democratic power structure. Common ownership of means of production with leasership chosen by a democ5ratic process.

Modern Is real was founded on the kibitz or collwective. In the 70s I attened a presentation on campus by an Israeli looking for people to summer on a kibutz.

There were agricultural and manufacturing kibutz. The one being presented had individual homes, a common dining hall, a car pool where cars could be checked out, and amenities like a swimming pool. They worked because Israel is small and the kibutz were small and manageable.

There is a US commune that stared in the 70s called t The Farm in Tenn. Stephen Gaskin. Started out as a group of hippies and grew into a successful farm. They opened a school. They went through an evolution of social order from no rules to structure. Out of necessity for order if you had sex you were engaged. If you got pregnant you were married.

It can work on a limited bases.

 

[fromderinside]

what were they? could you give concrete examples of free socialism?

Jist talking about US history and tradition. Barn raising, most rural co-operatives, many early education setups in US. neighbors bringing in harvests, community bakeries, library systems, fire departments, etc, ect, etc, .... Example still are being created in cities and even within businesses. Bosses who see the need to keep good employees grant space and furnishings for nursery and preschool set ups on site. to have clinics on site, to share fractions of income with workers beyond that which contracted for employment.

You seem to be confusing community cooperation for a national governmental system.

No. I'm saying governments form organically out of community efforts as well as from constraints on individuals needed for groups of some size to exist or be driven by the strong for control. Those who thought about these factors described what they saw as evident in groups to which they belonged or of which they were aware as natural aspects arising from human nature.

 

[Tammuz]

Socialism – A mixed economy.

No, the definition of socialism is not "a mixed economy". Look up the basic definition of the term instead of abusing it.

 

[steve_bank]

There are many interpretations and definitions based on how you are approaching. What is important is what the menings are as used today refernced to the real world.

China while still being ruled by the Chinese Communist Party has bed describes by the last Chinese leader as socialist.

There are no black and white dichotomies. American capitalism is not really capitalism as defined by Smith. American business gets corporate welfare. Soviet communism was not really communism as predicted by Marx.

Looking at the last 200 years II go with what is observed. Free market capitalism is derived form Laisee Faire capitalism, the idea that best economy is one that is 'hands off' by the ruling powers. Today it associated with intectual and private property rights. The right to keep profits from an invention. In 19th century Britain the crown could take an invention.

Communism is associated with much less private ownership and less ownership of intellectual property. Individual is submerged in the group identity.

Socialism is in the middle. France, the UK. Until the Thatcher era the UK govt controlled major industry like coal. Same with France, I read that the French govt wilds some control as stockholders in major busyness.

It comes down to the level of action and independence of the individual. In the USA no one plans what gets produced, how much, and what it costs. It is based on a dynamic supply and demand.

The communist experiments tried central planning. It led to famine in Russia and China. The last attempt by the Fench givt to control gas prices ended in riots.

Saudi Arabia in its constitution calls itself socialist. They nationalized oil and infrastructure. Most everybody in the country is paid directly or indirectly by the govt from oil. There is little in the way of free enterprise.

 

[steve_bank]

If you look at Denmark and its neghbors you will find much more govt support then what you see in the USA. A large scale safety net, as conservatives put it cradle to grave.

Capitalism, socialism, and communism as is today is a reflection of philosophy of the connection between citizen and state.

Bernie Sanders calls himself a democratic socialist. Medicare for all and free education for all.

Our conservatives and libertarians would say no support from govt, no social programs. Some libertarians reject community police and emergency services from taxation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark#Public_policy

Public policy

See also: Flexicurity and Taxation in Denmark

Also related: Taxation in the Faroe Islands and Taxation in Greenland

Danes enjoy a high standard of living and the Danish economy is characterised by extensive government welfare provisions. Denmark has a corporate tax rate of 22% and a special time-limited tax regime for expatriates.[134] The Danish taxation system is broad based, with a 25% value-added tax, in addition to excise taxes, income taxes and other fees. The overall level of taxation (sum of all taxes, as a percentage of GDP) was 46% in 2017.[135] The tax structure of Denmark (the relative weight of different taxes) differs from the OECD average, as the Danish tax system in 2015 was characterized by substantially higher revenues from taxes on personal income and a lower proportion of revenues from taxes on corporate income and gains and property taxes than in OECD generally, whereas no revenues at all derive from social security contributions. The proportion deriving from payroll taxes, VAT, and other taxes on goods and services correspond to the OECD average[136]

As of 2014, 6% of the population was reported to live below the poverty line, when adjusted for taxes and transfers. Denmark has the 2nd lowest relative poverty rate in the OECD, below the 11.3% OECD average.[137] The share of the population reporting that they feel that they cannot afford to buy sufficient food in Denmark is less than half of the OECD average.[137]
Labour market

Like other Nordic countries, Denmark has adopted the Nordic Model, which combines free market capitalism with a comprehensive welfare state and strong worker protection.[138] As a result of its acclaimed "flexicurity" model, Denmark has the freest labour market in Europe, according to the World Bank. Employers can hire and fire whenever they want (flexibility), and between jobs, unemployment compensation is relatively high (security). According to OECD, initial as well as long-term net replacement rates for unemployed persons were 65% of previous net income in 2016, against an OECD average of 53%.[139] Establishing a business can be done in a matter of hours and at very low costs.[140] No restrictions apply regarding overtime work, which allows companies to operate 24 hours a day, 365 days a year.[141] With an employment rate in 2017 of 74.2% for people aged 15–64-years, Denmark ranks 9th highest among the OECD countries, and above the OECD average of 67.8%.[142] The unemployment rate was 5.7% in 2017,[143] which is considered close to or below its structural level.[144]

Economy

Further information: Economy of Denmark, List of companies of Denmark, and List of largest Danish companies

Also related: Economy of the Faroe Islands and Economy of Greenland





Lego bricks are produced by The Lego Group, headquartered in Billund.
Denmark has a developed mixed economy that is classed as a high-income economy by the World Bank.[111] In 2017 it ranked 16th in the world in terms of gross national income (PPP) per capita and 10th in nominal GNI per capita.[112] Denmark's economy stands out as one of the most free in the Index of Economic Freedom and the Economic Freedom of the World.[113][114] It is the 10th most competitive economy in the world, and 6th in Europe, according to the World Economic Forum in its Global Competitiveness Report 2018.[115]

 

[Harry Bosch]

If you look at Denmark and its neghbors you will find much more govt support then what you see in the USA. A large scale safety net, as conservatives put it cradle to grave.

Capitalism, socialism, and communism as is today is a reflection of philosophy of the connection between citizen and state.

Bernie Sanders calls himself a democratic socialist. Medicare for all and free education for all.

Our conservatives and libertarians would say no support from govt, no social programs. Some libertarians reject community police and emergency services from taxation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark#Public_policy

Public policy

See also: Flexicurity and Taxation in Denmark

Also related: Taxation in the Faroe Islands and Taxation in Greenland

Danes enjoy a high standard of living and the Danish economy is characterised by extensive government welfare provisions. Denmark has a corporate tax rate of 22% and a special time-limited tax regime for expatriates.[134] The Danish taxation system is broad based, with a 25% value-added tax, in addition to excise taxes, income taxes and other fees. The overall level of taxation (sum of all taxes, as a percentage of GDP) was 46% in 2017.[135] The tax structure of Denmark (the relative weight of different taxes) differs from the OECD average, as the Danish tax system in 2015 was characterized by substantially higher revenues from taxes on personal income and a lower proportion of revenues from taxes on corporate income and gains and property taxes than in OECD generally, whereas no revenues at all derive from social security contributions. The proportion deriving from payroll taxes, VAT, and other taxes on goods and services correspond to the OECD average[136]

As of 2014, 6% of the population was reported to live below the poverty line, when adjusted for taxes and transfers. Denmark has the 2nd lowest relative poverty rate in the OECD, below the 11.3% OECD average.[137] The share of the population reporting that they feel that they cannot afford to buy sufficient food in Denmark is less than half of the OECD average.[137]
Labour market

Like other Nordic countries, Denmark has adopted the Nordic Model, which combines free market capitalism with a comprehensive welfare state and strong worker protection.[138] As a result of its acclaimed "flexicurity" model, Denmark has the freest labour market in Europe, according to the World Bank. Employers can hire and fire whenever they want (flexibility), and between jobs, unemployment compensation is relatively high (security). According to OECD, initial as well as long-term net replacement rates for unemployed persons were 65% of previous net income in 2016, against an OECD average of 53%.[139] Establishing a business can be done in a matter of hours and at very low costs.[140] No restrictions apply regarding overtime work, which allows companies to operate 24 hours a day, 365 days a year.[141] With an employment rate in 2017 of 74.2% for people aged 15–64-years, Denmark ranks 9th highest among the OECD countries, and above the OECD average of 67.8%.[142] The unemployment rate was 5.7% in 2017,[143] which is considered close to or below its structural level.[144]

Economy

Further information: Economy of Denmark, List of companies of Denmark, and List of largest Danish companies

Also related: Economy of the Faroe Islands and Economy of Greenland





Lego bricks are produced by The Lego Group, headquartered in Billund.
Denmark has a developed mixed economy that is classed as a high-income economy by the World Bank.[111] In 2017 it ranked 16th in the world in terms of gross national income (PPP) per capita and 10th in nominal GNI per capita.[112] Denmark's economy stands out as one of the most free in the Index of Economic Freedom and the Economic Freedom of the World.[113][114] It is the 10th most competitive economy in the world, and 6th in Europe, according to the World Economic Forum in its Global Competitiveness Report 2018.[115]

Well, you're basically describing the size of the safety net. Just because France and Denmark care for their people better doesn't make them socialist or communist. The key issue revolves around freedom and who owns the means of production. In a capitalist system, people have the freedom to own assets. And the majority of companies are privately owned. However, people can also form non-profit companies, employee owned companies, and etc. In the socialist system, people do not have the freedom to own assets. All assets are owned by the rulers as they see fit. In the communist system, all assets are owned by the collective (individual workers) and the rulers are disbanded (must suck for older people - no more retirements!).

I would agree that China is an outlier. I would still describe China as socialist. Yes, they have a vibrant hard-working entrepreneurial class. However, in actuality, all business assets are really owned by the Chinese government.

 

[steve_bank]

Socialism as discussed usually refers to the level of community support or welfare, a term which is used by conservatives as a pejoratives.

'socialized medicine'.

The degree of responsibility of the state for individuals and responsibly of individuals for themselves.

To me there main categories have moral, philosophical, and economic boundaries.

The question today is the morality of freewheeling free enterprise system we have. The owner of the Dallas Cowboys built a stadium that ran upwards of one billion. All the while we struggle to pay emergency services and teachers.

Something is going to give. In our system there are little constraints on what you can do with your money. Eventually people will rebel when enough people can not afford housing. There will no loner be buy in to the system.

 

[skepticalbip]

Socialism as discussed usually refers to the level of community support or welfare, a term which is used by conservatives as a pejoratives.

You are either attacking a straw man or some people's ignorant misuse if the meaning of the term. The most generous welfare systems on the planet are supported by a capitalist economic system... you have pointed out several of them. Under the welfare systems in the current socialist countries, like Venezuela, the welfare recipients receive almost nothing because the government has been incapable of creating wealth to distribute. The difference between the government providing social support system in a capitalist economic system and a socialist economic system is where the government gets the finances to pay for it. In a capitalist system the government gets the financing by taxing those making money. In a socialist system the government has to manage and run the industries well enough to make a profit that can finance those aid programs. So far, I have seen no evidence that politicians have the smarts to effectively direct or manage industries. In Venezuela, the new government management has changed Venezuela from the wealthiest nation in South America to the poorest and it only took less than twenty years for them to burn through the wealth that they confiscated.

 

[Tammuz]

Socialism as discussed usually refers to the level of community support or welfare

No it does not.

a term which is used by conservatives as a pejoratives.

Might be true, but it is irrelevant.

Here is the definition of socialism from Wikipedia:

Socialism is a range of economic and social systems characterised by social ownership of the means of production and workers' self-management, as well as the political theories and movements associated with them. Social ownership can be public, collective or cooperative ownership, or citizen ownership of equity. There are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them, with social ownership being the common element shared by its various forms.

This does not describe the Nordic countries. What Bernie Sanders chooses to call himself is irrelevant.

The former Danish prime minister has criticized Americans calling Denmark socialist:

But in a speech Friday evening at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government, Danish Prime Minister Lars Løkke Rasmussen said that while he's flattered to see Denmark discussed in a widely watched US presidential debate he doesn't think the socialist shoe fits.

"I know that some people in the US associate the Nordic model with some sort of socialism," he said. "Therefore, I would like to make one thing clear. Denmark is far from a socialist planned economy. Denmark is a market economy."

In Rasmussen's view, "The Nordic model is an expanded welfare state which provides a high level of security to its citizens, but it is also a successful market economy with much freedom to pursue your dreams and live your life as you wish."

 

[skepticalbip]

What Bernie Sanders chooses to call himself is irrelevant.

Well it is rather important if he is actually a socialist (which he calls himself) rather than a capitalist that wants to see a more generous social safety net. I don't think that Bernie is an idiot and that he is well aware of the actual meaning of the word, socialist. He was a great admirer of Chavez and his rhetoric is very close to that of Chavez when he first ran for office.

 

[Harry Bosch]

Socialism as discussed usually refers to the level of community support or welfare, a term which is used by conservatives as a pejoratives.

'socialized medicine'.

The degree of responsibility of the state for individuals and responsibly of individuals for themselves.

To me there main categories have moral, philosophical, and economic boundaries.

The question today is the morality of freewheeling free enterprise system we have. The owner of the Dallas Cowboys built a stadium that ran upwards of one billion. All the while we struggle to pay emergency services and teachers.

Something is going to give. In our system there are little constraints on what you can do with your money. Eventually people will rebel when enough people can not afford housing. There will no loner be buy in to the system.

Yea, you are using the conservative definition of socialist. Conservatives have co-opted the term socialist to mock progressives. Obama, Warren, and even HRC are routinely called "socialists" because they advocate for a larger safety net.

 

[Harry Bosch]

What Bernie Sanders chooses to call himself is irrelevant.

Well it is rather important if he is actually a socialist (which he calls himself) rather than a capitalist that wants to see a more generous social safety net. I don't think that Bernie is an idiot and that he is well aware of the actual meaning of the word, socialist. He was a great admirer of Chavez and his rhetoric is very close to that of Chavez when he first ran for office.

I very much agree with your post. Bernie's action to blur the definition of socialists has made it more difficult for progressives to get elected and make a difference. He is adding fuel to the right's desire to decrease the safety net...

 

[fromderinside]

Democrats are not social democrats. Democrats are progressives aiming to re-establish fundamental pilgrim principles of community.

Works here around westernmost. We got two democrat senators and five democrat representatives of six in congress and both state houses are democrat. Of course Portland being the only metropolitan area with about two million inhabitants helps.

 

[steve_bank]

A communist, a socialist, and a capitalist are strded on a desert islnd.

In the first night the communist wakes up with a bug crawling on him. He says 'Wake up comrades, I will divide the bug in thirds for us to eat. Even though I got the bug and did the work to cut it up we will all share equally'.

On the second night the socialist wakes up finding a bug. He says 'Wake up my friends, I will do the work of cutting the bug and for that I will get a little more of the bug than either of you'.

On the third night the capitalist wakes up to find a bug. He shouts 'Wake up, wake up! Anybody want to buy a bug?'.

There are philosophical, moral, social justice, and economic perspectives to any system. Our modern progressives equate socialism with social justice without really explaining how that would work.

Define communism, or socialism, or modern capitalism in terms of

Philosophy
Morality
Relative freedoms of the individual and actions
Economic system
Forms of govt
Social justice and equality
Human nature

If Denmark is not representative of a socialist system then detail what a socialist system would look like in reality, not dictionary definitions.

 

[steve_bank]

Socialism has no one meaning. Employee owned companies exist in the USA. 'Citizen owned' economics on the scale of the USA would be a disaster. The Soviet and Chinese forms failed catastrophically.

The dialogue I see here seems mostly idealistic thinking. Socialism as an idealized definition.

s a freethinker rejcting bounded ideoligies what I ask is what can be done relisticaly to balance econmics in a system while having a high level of individual freedom. Denmark seems like a good model.

Sanders is just another ideology waving a flag and shouting power to the people.

What is required is a fundamental change to the system. All else is useless. It is all piecemeal. Socialized medicine is useless if the divide between the top and bottom grows. It is useless if the middle class continues to be outpriced on housing. A decent small 1 bedroom apt in Seattle is around $2k a month.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism

Socialism
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Socialism is a range of economic and social systems characterised by social ownership of the means of production and workers' self-management,[10] as well as the political theories and movements associated with them.[11] Social ownership can be public, collective or cooperative ownership, or citizen ownership of equity.[12] There are many varieties of socialism and there is no single definition encapsulating all of them,[13] with social ownership being the common element shared by its various forms.[5][14][15]

Socialist systems are divided into non-market and market forms.[16] Non-market socialism involves replacing factor markets and money with engineering and technical criteria based on calculation performed in-kind, thereby producing an economic mechanism that functions according to different economic laws from those of capitalism. Non-market socialism aims to circumvent the inefficiencies and crises traditionally associated with capital accumulation and the profit system.[25] By contrast, market socialism retains the use of monetary prices, factor markets and in some cases the profit motive, with respect to the operation of socially owned enterprises and the allocation of capital goods between them. Profits generated by these firms would be controlled directly by the workforce of each firm, or accrue to society at large in the form of a social dividend.[26][27][28] The socialist calculation debate concerns the feasibility and methods of resource allocation for a socialist system.

Socialist politics has been both internationalist and nationalist in orientation; organised through political parties and opposed to party politics; at times overlapping with trade unions, and at other times independent and critical of unions; and present in both industrialised and developing nations.[29] Originating within the socialist movement, social democracy has embraced a mixed economy with a market that includes substantial state intervention in the form of income redistribution, regulation, and a welfare state. Economic democracy proposes a sort of market socialism where there is more decentralised control of companies, currencies, investments, and natural resources.

The socialist political movement includes a set of political philosophies that originated in the revolutionary movements of the mid-to-late 18th century and out of concern for the social problems that were associated with capitalism.[13] By the late 19th century, after the work of Karl Marx and his collaborator Friedrich Engels, socialism had come to signify opposition to capitalism and advocacy for a post-capitalist system based on some form of social ownership of the means of production.[30][31] By the 1920s, social democracy and communism had become the two dominant political tendencies within the international socialist movement.[32] By this time, socialism emerged as "the most influential secular movement of the twentieth century, worldwide. It is a political ideology (or world view), a wide and divided political movement"[33] and while the emergence of the Soviet Union as the world's first nominally socialist state led to socialism's widespread association with the Soviet economic model, some economists and intellectuals argued that in practice the model functioned as a form of state capitalism[34][35][36] or a non-planned administrative or command economy.[37][38] Socialist parties and ideas remain a political force with varying degrees of power and influence on all continents, heading national governments in many countries around the world. Today, some socialists have also adopted the causes of other social movements, such as environmentalism, feminism and progressivism.[

 

[fromderinside]

If Denmark is not representative of a socialist system then detail what a socialist system would look like in reality, not dictionary definitions.

Denmark is Social democracy/republic. 1950s England after Labor nationalized steel, coal, and railroads was pretty close to a socialist democracy/republic.

In oregon we've demonstrated over and over that providing for citizen comfort and health through proper taxation actually improves economies above those that don't do such as providing transportation, trails, parks, low income support and housing. Take the conservative stronghold in our state Medford. Poor libraries, transportation, health services within fire and police departments result in incomes of about 50% of that of Eugene which does provide those kinds of services. Even Ashland. which is next door to Medford, provies substantial more services and it's population has substantially higher income average than does Medford.