• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

"Coronavirus and the US" or "We are all going to die!!!!"

blastula

Contributor
Joined
Apr 14, 2006
Messages
8,485
Gender
Late for dinner
Basic Beliefs
Gnostic atheist
Just get rid of the ones who go to Panto shows. I have just learned of those atrocities being a thing at all and a popular British tradition. Any society which would allow them does not deserve to exist.
 

southernhybrid

Contributor
Joined
Aug 13, 2001
Messages
6,995
Location
Georgia, US
Basic Beliefs
atheist
small number of COVID survivors develop psychosis

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/12/28/health/covid-psychosis-mental.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage


Most had no history of mental illness and became psychotic weeks after contracting the virus. Cases are expected to remain rare but are being reported worldwide.


The patient, a 42-year-old physical therapist and mother of four young children, had never had psychiatric symptoms or any family history of mental illness. Yet there she was, sitting at a table in a beige-walled room at South Oaks Hospital in Amityville, N.Y., sobbing and saying that she kept seeing her children, ages 2 to 10, being gruesomely murdered and that she herself had crafted plans to kill them.

“It was like she was experiencing a movie, like ‘Kill Bill,’” Dr. Goueli, a psychiatrist, said.

The patient described one of her children being run over by a truck and another decapitated. “It’s a horrifying thing that here’s this well-accomplished woman and she’s like ‘I love my kids, and I don’t know why I feel this way that I want to decapitate them,’” he said.

The only notable thing about her medical history was that the woman, who declined to be interviewed but allowed Dr. Goueli to describe her case, had become infected with the coronavirus in the spring. She had experienced only mild physical symptoms from the virus, but, months later, she heard a voice that first told her to kill herself and then told her to kill her children.

At South Oaks, which has an inpatient psychiatric treatment program for Covid-19 patients, Dr. Goueli was unsure whether the coronavirus was connected to the woman’s psychological symptoms. “Maybe this is Covid-related, maybe it’s not,” he recalled thinking.

“But then,” he said, “we saw a second case, a third case and a fourth case, and we’re like, ‘There’s something happening.’”

Indeed, doctors are reporting similar cases across the country and around the world. A small number of Covid patients who had never experienced mental health problems are developing severe psychotic symptoms weeks after contracting the coronavirus.

This is some weird, scary shit, especially when some of these people only had mild symptoms when they were infected by COVID.

In interviews and scientific articles, doctors described:

A 36-year-old nursing home employee in North Carolina who became so paranoid that she believed her three children would be kidnapped and, to save them, tried to pass them through a fast-food restaurant’s drive-through window.

A 30-year-old construction worker in New York City who became so delusional that he imagined his cousin was going to murder him, and, to protect himself, he tried to strangle his cousin in bed.

“My guess is any place that is seeing Covid is probably seeing this,” said Dr. Colin Smith at Duke University Medical Center in Durham, who helped treat the North Carolina woman. He and other doctors said their patients were too fragile to be asked whether they wanted to be interviewed for this article, but some, including the North Carolina woman, agreed to have their cases described in scientific papers.

Medical experts say they expect that such extreme psychiatric dysfunction will affect only a small proportion of patients. But the cases are considered examples of another way the Covid-19 disease process can affect mental health and brain function.

Although the coronavirus was initially thought primarily to cause respiratory distress, there is now ample evidence of many other symptoms, including neurological, cognitive and psychological effects, that could emerge even in patients who didn’t develop serious lung, heart or circulatory problems. Such symptoms can be just as debilitating to a person’s ability to function and work, and it’s often unclear how long they will last or how to treat them.

Experts increasingly believe brain-related effects may be linked to the body’s immune system response to the coronavirus and possibly to vascular problems or surges of inflammation caused by the disease process.



Sporadic cases of post-infectious psychosis and mania have occurred with other viruses, including the 1918 flu and the coronaviruses SARS and MERS.

“We think that it’s not unique to Covid,” said Dr. Jonathan Alpert, chairman of psychiatry and behavioral sciences at Albert Einstein College of Medicine, who co-wrote the report on the Montefiore patients. He said studying these cases might help to increase doctors’ understanding of psychosis.

The symptoms have ranged widely, some surprisingly severe for a first psychotic episode, experts said. Dr. Goueli said a 46-year-old pharmacy technician, whose family brought her in after she became fearful that evil spirits had invaded her home, “cried literally for four days” in the hospital.

He said the 30-year-old construction worker, brought to the hospital by the police, became “extremely violent,” dismantling a hospital radiator and using its parts and his shoes to try to break out of a window. He also swung a chair at hospital staff.

How long the psychosis lasted and patients’ response to treatment has varied. The woman in Britain — whose symptoms included paranoia about the color red and terror that nurses were devils who would harm her and a family member — took about 40 days to recover, according to a case report.

The woman who was first mentioned in this article finally was treated successfully after 4 weeks on the antipsychotic drug, risperidone. The article gives a lot more details. I had no idea that some viral infections could cause secondary psychosis. A lot more needs to be learned about this and how it cam be treated.
 

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
28,776
Location
The Sunshine State: The one with Crocs, not Gators
Gender
He/Him
Basic Beliefs
Strong Atheist
bilby, feeling pretty good about yourself in Australia?

So far.

NSW is looking dodgy, but our state border is closed to Sydney residents, and we haven't had a case outside quarantine in Queensland for four months.

As Sydney is in the process of demonstrating, it could easily all go to shit. But so far, so good.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Grade Linguist
Joined
May 28, 2017
Messages
4,221
Location
Bellevue, WA
Basic Beliefs
Atheist humanist
We are finally at the point where some hospitals in the US are in a triage situation. More people will die as more ICU wards fill to capacity.
 

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
28,776
Location
The Sunshine State: The one with Crocs, not Gators
Gender
He/Him
Basic Beliefs
Strong Atheist

repoman

Contributor
Joined
Aug 4, 2001
Messages
8,353
Location
Seattle, WA
Basic Beliefs
Science Based Atheism
Anyone have an opinion about Ivermectin or the proper dosage of dexamethasone for covid?

If you or a loved one was coming down with covid pneumonia how much dexamethasone would you want the doctor to give?
 

4321lynx

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2006
Messages
1,384
Location
Ontario, Canada
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
Anyone have an opinion about Ivermectin or the proper dosage of dexamethasone for covid?

If you or a loved one was coming down with covid pneumonia how much dexamethasone would you want the doctor to give?



The UK RECOVERY trial showed that low-dose dexamethasone (6 mg PO or IV daily for10 days) randomized to 2104 patients reduced deaths by 35% in ventilated patients (P = 0.0003) and by 20% in other patients receiving oxygen only (P = 0.0021) compared with patients who received standard of care (n = 4321). No benefit was seen in patients who did not require respiratory intervention
 

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
28,776
Location
The Sunshine State: The one with Crocs, not Gators
Gender
He/Him
Basic Beliefs
Strong Atheist
Anyone have an opinion about Ivermectin or the proper dosage of dexamethasone for covid?
Mate, every fucker has an opinion. Opinions are like arseholes - everyone's got one, and usually they're full of shit.
If you or a loved one was coming down with covid pneumonia how much dexamethasone would you want the doctor to give?

The amount that his professional opinion as a medical expert tells him is appropriate. I am not qualified to influence his decision on this matter in any way that isn't likely to worsen the outcome.

Nor are most of the random people on the Internet.

This is not a question that a sane person would outsource to a bunch of random Internet denizens with unknown identities and unverifiable qualifications (if any) in the subject matter.

Even if I were a medical specialist in exactly this field, you would have no way to be confident that that was the case.

Seriously. Stop asking the Internet for opinions that can only be useful from qualified professionals. Stop. Desist. Don't do it any more, ever. No, not even if you mistrust the professional you asked first; Get a second opinion by all means, but get THAT from a qualified expert too.

That you would even for a second contemplate the possibility of asking an Internet discussion board a question like this is a perfect illustration of why the world is currently fucked up beyond all recognition. Stop it.
 

Angry Floof

Tricksy Leftits
Staff member
Joined
Jul 17, 2008
Messages
14,523
Location
Sector 001
Basic Beliefs
Humanist
Anyone have an opinion about Ivermectin or the proper dosage of dexamethasone for covid?

If you or a loved one was coming down with covid pneumonia how much dexamethasone would you want the doctor to give?

Why are you asking us? Ask a medical professional! :rofl:
 

barbos

Contributor
Joined
Nov 12, 2005
Messages
14,581
Location
Mlky Way galaxy
Basic Beliefs
atheist
I am not a doctor but I think the dose depends on the conditions of the patient. Having said that, I would rather use maximum safe dose of the steroid which is kinda proven to work than nothing and risk complications from COVID-19. I think it's now safe to say complications are severe. I read the claims about average 10 years from life expectancy. And that's life expectancy, forget about life quality. So yeah, steroids help to modulate immune system down.
 

Loren Pechtel

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Sep 16, 2000
Messages
37,507
Location
Nevada
Gender
Yes
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
I am not a doctor but I think the dose depends on the conditions of the patient. Having said that, I would rather use maximum safe dose of the steroid which is kinda proven to work than nothing and risk complications from COVID-19. I think it's now safe to say complications are severe. I read the claims about average 10 years from life expectancy. And that's life expectancy, forget about life quality. So yeah, steroids help to modulate immune system down.

"Maximum safe dose" is something of an oxymoron. The higher the dose the more side effects.
 

barbos

Contributor
Joined
Nov 12, 2005
Messages
14,581
Location
Mlky Way galaxy
Basic Beliefs
atheist
I am not a doctor but I think the dose depends on the conditions of the patient. Having said that, I would rather use maximum safe dose of the steroid which is kinda proven to work than nothing and risk complications from COVID-19. I think it's now safe to say complications are severe. I read the claims about average 10 years from life expectancy. And that's life expectancy, forget about life quality. So yeah, steroids help to modulate immune system down.

"Maximum safe dose" is something of an oxymoron. The higher the dose the more side effects.
You can have both, it being safe and having side effects.
 

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
28,776
Location
The Sunshine State: The one with Crocs, not Gators
Gender
He/Him
Basic Beliefs
Strong Atheist
I am not a doctor but I think the dose depends on the conditions of the patient. Having said that, I would rather use maximum safe dose of the steroid which is kinda proven to work than nothing and risk complications from COVID-19. I think it's now safe to say complications are severe. I read the claims about average 10 years from life expectancy. And that's life expectancy, forget about life quality. So yeah, steroids help to modulate immune system down.

"Maximum safe dose" is something of an oxymoron. The higher the dose the more side effects.
You can have both, it being safe and having side effects.

No, you really can't.

As dose increases, so does risk of issues due to the therapeutic agent.

When the risk of NOT providing the therapeutic agent outweighs the risk of administering it, you should go for it.

But that's something that has to be a case by case determination.

The "maximum safe dose" is completely dependent on the individual's risk level if not treated. And that varies wildly from patient to patient.
 

barbos

Contributor
Joined
Nov 12, 2005
Messages
14,581
Location
Mlky Way galaxy
Basic Beliefs
atheist
You can have both, it being safe and having side effects.

No, you really can't.

As dose increases, so does risk of issues due to the therapeutic agent.

When the risk of NOT providing the therapeutic agent outweighs the risk of administering it, you should go for it.

But that's something that has to be a case by case determination.

The "maximum safe dose" is completely dependent on the individual's risk level if not treated. And that varies wildly from patient to patient.
Steroid side effects are well known and described. You are not going to die from them or have lasting problems. The worst that can happen is starting a War with Iran. They are safe.
 

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
28,776
Location
The Sunshine State: The one with Crocs, not Gators
Gender
He/Him
Basic Beliefs
Strong Atheist
You can have both, it being safe and having side effects.

No, you really can't.

As dose increases, so does risk of issues due to the therapeutic agent.

When the risk of NOT providing the therapeutic agent outweighs the risk of administering it, you should go for it.

But that's something that has to be a case by case determination.

The "maximum safe dose" is completely dependent on the individual's risk level if not treated. And that varies wildly from patient to patient.
Steroid side effects are well known and described. You are not going to die from them or have lasting problems. The worst that can happen is starting a War with Iran. They are safe.

So is asymptomatic CoVID19

Whether it is reasonable to take a given dose of any drug is dependent upon the degree of harm to be expected if you do NOT take it. Whether that projected harm is greater than or less than the projected harm from the disease is entirely dependent on the severity of the disease, which varies from patient to patient.

There's no one size fits all "maximum safe dose". Even a massive dose that is known to cause serious risks would be worth administering if the patient is certain to die without it.

"Safe" is a relative term. No drug is safe, but all the ones you should prescribe are safer than letting a disease run its course untreated.

This is why individual patients need to consult qualified and trained medical specialists, and not random posters on Internet discussion boards, no matter how much those random netizens might claim to know.
 

barbos

Contributor
Joined
Nov 12, 2005
Messages
14,581
Location
Mlky Way galaxy
Basic Beliefs
atheist
This is why individual patients need to consult qualified and trained medical specialists
There are no such specialists at present. And average doctors in general are overrated. They don't really know that much and understand even less.
We don't really know long term effects of asymptomatic covid19. Some medical "specialists" are starting to say it takes 10 years from life expectancy. I only hope it's only for these who have severe or at least noticeable symptoms.
 

barbos

Contributor
Joined
Nov 12, 2005
Messages
14,581
Location
Mlky Way galaxy
Basic Beliefs
atheist
Pigs and chicken should be kept separate and in small fully quarantined groups at all time.

That sounds like a great idea. How do you plan to enforce this in China, where many people still live in close proximity to both, and huge numbers of both are traded, live, in busy markets? Live meat is the only guaranteed fresh meat for most Chinese consumers. Banning the intermingling of live pigs and chickens would be at best hugely unpopular, and could easily lead to significant numbers of deaths from food poisoning, and/or a severe reduction in the quality and quantity of food available to ordinary chinese citizens.
China is a totalitarian regime, aren't they?
Meanwhile 440 infected and 9 dead. And it transmits between humans.

Have not been updating in a while:

infected: 84,979,166
dead: 1,843,429
 

barbos

Contributor
Joined
Nov 12, 2005
Messages
14,581
Location
Mlky Way galaxy
Basic Beliefs
atheist
China is a totalitarian regime, aren't they?
Meanwhile 440 infected and 9 dead. And it transmits between humans.

The trick to running a totalitarian regime is to never issue an order that you know will be disobeyed, unless you are prepared and able to arrest all of those who disobey; Or unless your purpose is to make everyone an outlaw subject to arbitrary arrest.

The Chinese government doesn't have the ability to enforce such a law - it would require arresting a sizeable fraction of the population (if they could all be identified and their crime detected, which they couldn't), and it would be widely ignored as the impractical and stupid demand that it is.

And shutting the stable door wouldn't bring those nine people back to life.

Nine dead is utterly trivial anyway. More people have been killed in Wuhan by automobiles in the last couple of weeks.

Number of dead is not trivial anymore.
 

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
28,776
Location
The Sunshine State: The one with Crocs, not Gators
Gender
He/Him
Basic Beliefs
Strong Atheist
China is a totalitarian regime, aren't they?
Meanwhile 440 infected and 9 dead. And it transmits between humans.

The trick to running a totalitarian regime is to never issue an order that you know will be disobeyed, unless you are prepared and able to arrest all of those who disobey; Or unless your purpose is to make everyone an outlaw subject to arbitrary arrest.

The Chinese government doesn't have the ability to enforce such a law - it would require arresting a sizeable fraction of the population (if they could all be identified and their crime detected, which they couldn't), and it would be widely ignored as the impractical and stupid demand that it is.

And shutting the stable door wouldn't bring those nine people back to life.

Nine dead is utterly trivial anyway. More people have been killed in Wuhan by automobiles in the last couple of weeks.

Number of dead is not trivial anymore.

True. but it's still outside the realm of possibility for the Chinese government to enforce the rule you suggested:

Pigs and chicken should be kept separate and in small fully quarantined groups at all time.

Chinese pig and chicken rearing just isn't done in a way that would make that possible. Unlike the death toll, that's unchanged since 22 January 2020.
 

southernhybrid

Contributor
Joined
Aug 13, 2001
Messages
6,995
Location
Georgia, US
Basic Beliefs
atheist
I've read several articles this week about how overwhelmed the hospitals in Georgia are now. I read about an ambulance drive that tried to take an old man with a broken bone to several hospitals that they all turned him away. Finally, the ambulance driver simply took him into an ER out of frustration, as there was no place willing to accept him. What a fucking nightmare.

https://www.ajc.com/news/atlanta-news/a-look-at-major-covid-19-developments-hospitals-overwhelmed/SA4L4XBDAJA4BGFO27EU5LCI5A/

COVID-19 cases are swamping Georgia hospitals, testing them in every way. Hospital officials say that they are already forced to decide which patients receive scarce resources. But those decisions could become more grave with projections showing that hospitalizations will continue to climb in the weeks ahead.

State officials decided to reopen a field hospital at the Georgia World Congress Center.

People who continue to be careless have no respect for the healthcare workers who are totally overwhelmed and burned out from this pandemic.
 

Jokodo

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2010
Messages
4,653
Location
Riverside City
Basic Beliefs
humanist
State officials decided to reopen a field hospital at the Georgia World Congress Center.

That should fix it. The GWCC is vast (1,500,000 square feet)
Now, if they can round up a few thousand staff ...

There must be hundreds of thousands unemployed nurses with IC specialisation all over the northern hemisphere, from Germany to UK and Hungary, right? Just ease the red tape and hand out a few green cards.

Not. The stats aren't really looking better in much of Europe, worse in some places.
 

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
28,776
Location
The Sunshine State: The one with Crocs, not Gators
Gender
He/Him
Basic Beliefs
Strong Atheist
State officials decided to reopen a field hospital at the Georgia World Congress Center.

That should fix it. The GWCC is vast (1,500,000 square feet)
Now, if they can round up a few thousand staff ...

This is a perfect opportunity to show the power of the free market. Just put prices up until the number of patients who can afford treatment is less than or equal to the number you have the resources to treat.

High prices will make it attractive to build new hospitals and train new doctors and nurses; Young people will see the high wages for CoVID specialists and want to become doctors and nurses with those skills. In no more than about seven to ten years, there will be plenty of equipment, facilities, and staff, prices will drop dramatically, and any middle class American will be able to afford treatment.

Of course, if you can't wait that long, you can go full Libertarian on the problem, eliminate the pointless job-killing regulations that say hospitals must be clean, with trained and qualified staff, and effective and safe treatments and procedures; Then everyone can get "treatment" today on a sliding scale of quality determined by their ability to pay (and their ability to assess the quality of care that they are unqualified to provide).

Anything else is communism.
 

Bomb#20

Contributor
Joined
Sep 28, 2004
Messages
6,826
Location
California
Gender
It's a free country.
Basic Beliefs
Rationalism
State officials decided to reopen a field hospital at the Georgia World Congress Center.

That should fix it. The GWCC is vast (1,500,000 square feet)
Now, if they can round up a few thousand staff ...

There must be hundreds of thousands unemployed nurses with IC specialisation all over the northern hemisphere, from Germany to UK and Hungary, right? Just ease the red tape and hand out a few green cards.

Not. The stats aren't really looking better in much of Europe, worse in some places.

No need to poach from countries that need them for their own covid patients -- the required medical professionals are already here. We can poach them from Uber and Lyft.

Why refugee doctors become taxi drivers
 

repoman

Contributor
Joined
Aug 4, 2001
Messages
8,353
Location
Seattle, WA
Basic Beliefs
Science Based Atheism
Another interesting and useful video from Medcram that is good for chore time and pausing for exact information:

 

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
28,776
Location
The Sunshine State: The one with Crocs, not Gators
Gender
He/Him
Basic Beliefs
Strong Atheist
So, after over a hundred days with zero community transmission in Queensland, yesterday a cleaner who works at one of the quarantine hotels for people returning from overseas tested positive to COVID.

Today it was confirmed that she has the more contagious UK variant, and as a result we are in a three day lockdown starting at 6pm tonight (Friday, in four hours from now) and ending 6pm Monday - if there are no further cases detected.

People are not permitted to leave home except for essential purposes, and mask wearing is mandatory if you do venture out for any reason.

This is our response to one case. Singular.

Our willingness to impose and implement this level of response is why we only have one case, singular, to which we need respond.

Hopefully this will put the lid back on in short order. But much better to have a few weeks of severe restrictions now, than to need months of them later.
 

Angry Floof

Tricksy Leftits
Staff member
Joined
Jul 17, 2008
Messages
14,523
Location
Sector 001
Basic Beliefs
Humanist
So, after over a hundred days with zero community transmission in Queensland, yesterday a cleaner who works at one of the quarantine hotels for people returning from overseas tested positive to COVID.

Today it was confirmed that she has the more contagious UK variant, and as a result we are in a three day lockdown starting at 6pm tonight (Friday, in four hours from now) and ending 6pm Monday - if there are no further cases detected.

People are not permitted to leave home except for essential purposes, and mask wearing is mandatory if you do venture out for any reason.

This is our response to one case. Singular.

Our willingness to impose and implement this level of response is why we only have one case, singular, to which we need respond.

Hopefully this will put the lid back on in short order. But much better to have a few weeks of severe restrictions now, than to need months of them later.

Or end up with dead loved ones.
 

Jokodo

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2010
Messages
4,653
Location
Riverside City
Basic Beliefs
humanist
So, after over a hundred days with zero community transmission in Queensland, yesterday a cleaner who works at one of the quarantine hotels for people returning from overseas tested positive to COVID.

Today it was confirmed that she has the more contagious UK variant, and as a result we are in a three day lockdown starting at 6pm tonight (Friday, in four hours from now) and ending 6pm Monday - if there are no further cases detected.

People are not permitted to leave home except for essential purposes, and mask wearing is mandatory if you do venture out for any reason.

This is our response to one case. Singular.

Meanwhile in Europe, the Austrian government is standing by its plan to lift most of the current restrictions by January 25 (though with an occasional "if the numbers allow it" thrown in, never specifying what that would mean). The plan is to open schools (including for older kids - for the first time since October for those over 14), non-essential shops (they were closed for three weeks late November to early December, then opened for Christmas shopping and are now closed again since boxing day), indoor dining (with capacity limits, for the first time since early November).

We currently count about one new confirmed case per minute per Queensland equivalent population.
 

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
28,776
Location
The Sunshine State: The one with Crocs, not Gators
Gender
He/Him
Basic Beliefs
Strong Atheist
So in two years western democracies, including Australia, which continue to trade individual freedom for elder deaths will have herd immunity and broken economies with nothing but millions of deaths to show for it.

Not including Australia.

Probably including Austria, which is a completely different country.

Don't worry though, when tourism is eventually allowed again, I am sure the souvenir shops in Vienna will still sell toy kangaroos and koalas for the avoidance of arguments with Americans.
 

blastula

Contributor
Joined
Apr 14, 2006
Messages
8,485
Gender
Late for dinner
Basic Beliefs
Gnostic atheist
bilby, do you have many covid denier protestors over there?
 

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
28,776
Location
The Sunshine State: The one with Crocs, not Gators
Gender
He/Him
Basic Beliefs
Strong Atheist
bilby, do you have many covid denier protestors over there?

Some.

They're not getting much traction.

Mostly it seems to be the usual anti-vax suspects.

Australians don't tend to bother too much about freedom as a concept or self-contained ideological stance, though we do have a lot of leakage of these things from American culture. Our modern nation was founded as a prison, so we pretty much expect that everything that's not mandatory will be prohibited.

In my state, an arrested person has two legal rights: To be told the name, rank, and police station of their arresting officer; And to be provided with a detailed list of any charges against them, if and when charges are laid.

That's it. There are no others. Miranda certainly doesn't apply, and a police 'caution' typically consists of "You are under arrest, get in the van". Asking for a lawyer or phone call might well get you one. Demanding them probably won't.

Oddly, in day to day life, (white) Australians are about the most free people on Earth, having worked out that the only way to handle our draconian and all pervading laws is to ignore any that don't seem to make sense, or don't seem likely to be enforced. She'll be right, mate.

Complaining about being denied your rights isn't particularly effective when you never had any rights to deny. If the government is forcing you to wear a mask, then so what? They're forcing you to do a metric shit-ton of other stuff too, and it's not worth arcing up about it - just ignore it unless everyone else is obeying. Being the odd one out might get you fined. So Australians tend to go along with the crowd, rather than worrying about what the actual rules are. It's incredibly democratic.

Right now, the highly unofficial democratic will of the people seems to be 'wear your bloody mask'.
 

fromderinside

Mazzie Daius
Joined
Oct 6, 2008
Messages
15,945
Location
Local group: Solar system: Earth: NA: US: contiguo
Basic Beliefs
optimist
I knew there was something about Australia that made it different from, say Wyoming. It turns out to be women, not open spaces. There had to be a higher proportion of women that came to Australia than came Wyoming. Otherwise there's nothing else that can explain why coming from a place with a harsh climate and very few people per sq whatever over the same period wouldn't result in people being the same. After all both originally came from essentially the same peasant stock. They even talk alike.

Oh wait. Things are much colder in Wyoming. That's why fewer women?
 

Jokodo

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2010
Messages
4,653
Location
Riverside City
Basic Beliefs
humanist
So in two years western democracies, including Australia, which continue to trade individual freedom for elder deaths will have herd immunity and broken economies with nothing but millions of deaths to show for it.

Not including Australia.

Probably including Austria, which is a completely different country.

Don't worry though, when tourism is eventually allowed again, I am sure the souvenir shops in Vienna will still sell toy kangaroos and koalas for the avoidance of arguments with Americans.

I'm not sure they did previously - though items like this are quite popular: https://aus-oesterreich.at/Souvenirs-Oesterreich/Oesterreich/Magnet-No-kangaroos-in-Austria
 

Jokodo

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2010
Messages
4,653
Location
Riverside City
Basic Beliefs
humanist
Cool MP talking about Vitamin D deficiency and Covid



In what universe is an MP with an education in economics and a career focus on whining about civil liberties while denying civil liberties to LGBT people someone to take medical advice from?
 

repoman

Contributor
Joined
Aug 4, 2001
Messages
8,353
Location
Seattle, WA
Basic Beliefs
Science Based Atheism
Jokodo, if you and your elderly relatives are taking Vitamin D why not stop because an idiot homophobe must be wrong about it?
 

ronburgundy

Contributor
Joined
Dec 6, 2014
Messages
5,757
Location
Whale's Vagina
Basic Beliefs
Atheist/Scientist
I have no expertise in this area and am just trying to apply logic to the various info that's been put out. I know they are claiming that he new strain is more easily and quickly spread but no evidence it is more deadly. However, I would guess that the latter is more about there just not being the data needed yet to evaluate it's deadliness. There would be tons of confounding variables that need to be controlled for.

From a purely theoretical standpoint, wouldn't the same mechanisms that make the new strain of COVID spread more quickly and easily also make it lead to more severe symptoms? Severity of symptoms is thought to be tied to initial viral load exposure, due to your immune systems not being able to marshal a response quick enough. It would seem that the reason it would spread more quickly is that less of a viral load is needed to lead to infection. Why wouldn't that same feature mean that you need less of a viral load exposure to have a severe reaction?

What mechanism of ease of spread would not have implications for how easily one can be exposed to a high viral load?
 
Last edited:

southernhybrid

Contributor
Joined
Aug 13, 2001
Messages
6,995
Location
Georgia, US
Basic Beliefs
atheist
Jokodo, if you and your elderly relatives are taking Vitamin D why not stop because an idiot homophobe must be wrong about it?

I'm skeptical about the vitamin D deficiency claims because I've been deficient for years and I haven't even had a cold in over 10 years. I take D supplements now and have been for years. Sometimes my levels are normal but for some reason, I've had a difficult time getting it back to normal for the last two years. I think if D deficiency was related to being prone to viral or bacterial infections, I wouldn't be so healthy. I do have mild osteoporosis, but I have never had a fracture and I do intense exercise everyday to help keep me healthy as well as making sure that I have good balance and am not prone to falls.

The vitamin D panacea has been around for well over a decade, but there's never been much consistent evidence to support some of the claims. Of course, I'm not going to stop taking D because I am so deficient and hate spending time in the sun. I just doubt that D deficiency makes one more prone to COVID or other infectious respiratory diseases. Many if not most older females have D deficiency, probably because we don't spend much time outdoors. I found that to be true of my former patients when I worked in long term care.

I didn't watch the linked video. I hate watching videos, nothing personal. I just prefer to read.
 

Jokodo

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2010
Messages
4,653
Location
Riverside City
Basic Beliefs
humanist
Jokodo, if you and your elderly relatives are taking Vitamin D why not stop because an idiot homophobe must be wrong about it?

I don't know whether he's wrong about it. I don't even know what he says about it. I have better things to do with my times than watching an economist bloviating about medical science.

Obviously you like his political leanings, but that doesn't make him right about a topic he knows nothing about. Sure, it doesn't make him wrong either, but thinking it's relevant what he has to say shows your irrationality.
 

southernhybrid

Contributor
Joined
Aug 13, 2001
Messages
6,995
Location
Georgia, US
Basic Beliefs
atheist
COVID infections might be related to new cases of Diabetes

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2021/02/01/covid-new-onset-diabetes/

Mihail Zilbermint is used to treating diabetes — he heads a special team that cares for patients with the metabolic disorder at Suburban Hospital in Bethesda, Md. But as the hospital admitted increasing numbers of patients with covid-19, his caseload ballooned.
“Before, we used to manage maybe 18 patients per day,” he said. Now his team cares for as many as 30 daily.
Many of those patients had no prior history of diabetes. Some who developed elevated blood sugar while they had covid-19, the illness caused by the novel coronavirus, returned to normal by the time they left the hospital. Others went home with a diagnosis of full-blown diabetes. “We’ve definitely seen an uptick in patients who are newly diagnosed,” Zilbermint said.
Although covid-19 often attacks the lungs, it is increasingly associated with a range of problems including blood clots, neurological disorders, and kidney and heart damage. Researchers say new-onset diabetes may soon be added to those complications — both Type 1, in which people cannot make the insulin needed to regulate their blood sugar, and Type 2, in which they make too little insulin or become resistant to their insulin, causing their blood sugar levels to rise. But scientists do not know whether covid-19 might hasten already developing problems or actually cause them — or both.


As early as January 2020, doctors in Wuhan, China, noticed elevated blood sugar in patients with covid-19. Physicians in Italy, another early hot spot, wondered whether diabetes diagnoses might follow, given the long-observed association between viral infections and the onset of diabetes. That association was seen in past outbreaks of other coronavirus illnesses such as influenza and SARS.
A year after the pandemic began, the precise nature and scope of the covid-diabetes link remain a mystery. Many of those who develop diabetes during or after covid-19 have risk factors, such as obesity or a family history of the disease. Elevated blood glucose levels also are common among those taking dexamethasone, a steroid that is a front-line treatment for covid-19. But cases also have occurred in patients with no known risk factors or prior health concerns. And some cases develop months after the body has cleared the virus.
John Kunkel, a 47-year-old banking executive in Evening Shade, Ark., was one of the surprise cases. He was hospitalized with covid-19 in early July. During a follow-up visit with his doctor, he learned he had dangerously high blood glucose levels and was readmitted. Kunkel has since received a diagnosis of Type 2 diabetes.

“I had no preexisting health issues,” he said. “I was blown away. Why?”
Kunkel has had five emergency room visits and three hospital stays since getting covid-19. He recently lost his job because he was unable to return to work, given his continuing health problems. “Will you get your life back?” he asked. “Nobody knows.”
As many as 14.4 percent of people hospitalized with severe covid-19 developed diabetes, according to a global analysis published Nov. 27 in the journal Diabetes, Obesity and Metabolism. The international group of researchers sifted through reports of uncontrolled hyperglycemia, or high blood sugar, in more than 3,700 covid-19 patients across eight studies. While those diagnoses might be the result of a long-observed response to severe illness, or to treatment with steroids, the authors wrote, a direct effect from covid-19 “should also be considered.”

Concerns that covid-19 might be directly implicated also were supported, they said, by the exceptionally high doses of insulin that diabetes patients with severe covid-19 often require and the dangerous complications they develop.
Researchers do not understand exactly how covid-19 might trigger Type 1 or Type 2 diabetes, or whether the cases are temporary or permanent. But they are racing to find answers to these and other questions, including whether the novel coronavirus may have spawned an entirely new type of diabetes that might play out differently from the traditional forms of the disease.
Francesco Rubino, a diabetes surgery professor at King’s College London, is convinced there is an underlying connection between the diseases.
Over the summer, he and a group of other diabetes experts launched a global registry of patients with covid-19-related diabetes. After they spread the word with an editorial in the New England Journal of Medicine, more than 350 institutions from across the world responded, he said.

New diagnoses of diabetes in people with no classic risk factors also are scattered throughout case reports: A 37-year-old, previously healthy Chinese man who went to the hospital with a severe, and in some cases fatal, diabetes complication; a 19-year-old German who developed Type 1 diabetes five to seven weeks after a novel coronavirus infection but who lacked the antibodies commonly associated with the autoimmune disease.
Doctors at Children’s Hospital Los Angeles, meanwhile, noticed an increase in the number of Type 2 diagnoses in children, as well as a severe complication of diabetes. After some of them showed evidence of past coronavirus infections, Senta Georgia, an investigator in the hospital’s Saban Research Institute, began looking deeper. Her research, which repurposes tissue from primates used in vaccine tests, is undergoing peer review.
“Only with the scientific public square can we put all of this data out there, evaluate its strengths and weaknesses … until we really get the information we need,” Georgia said

This is so weird.
 

repoman

Contributor
Joined
Aug 4, 2001
Messages
8,353
Location
Seattle, WA
Basic Beliefs
Science Based Atheism
Is it not true that lots of people are on thin ice and silently headed towards diabetes?

Early-Diagnosis-by-GTIR.jpeg

How can one know if they have a pre-existing health issue with regards to pancreatic function and insulin resistance if this is not tested much?

If these people were tested with an oral glucose challenge with insulin and glucose measured and so on this data would be interesting.

Having been a massive sugar addict and moderate drinker but still luckily only slightly chubby I am not confident at all regarding my metabolic health. But have cleaned up my diet as much as possible in the past year.

It is tough to stay healthy and not eat all day and have too much sugar or bread which is almost the same. And once you are on that junkie train it is hard to get off.
 

southernhybrid

Contributor
Joined
Aug 13, 2001
Messages
6,995
Location
Georgia, US
Basic Beliefs
atheist
Is it not true that lots of people are on thin ice and silently headed towards diabetes?

View attachment 31698

How can one know if they have a pre-existing health issue with regards to pancreatic function and insulin resistance if this is not tested much?

If these people were tested with an oral glucose challenge with insulin and glucose measured and so on this data would be interesting.

Having been a massive sugar addict and moderate drinker but still luckily only slightly chubby I am not confident at all regarding my metabolic health. But have cleaned up my diet as much as possible in the past year.

It is tough to stay healthy and not eat all day and have too much sugar or bread which is almost the same. And once you are on that junkie train it is hard to get off.

They are still studying this reaction, but some of the people were very healthy and had no preexisting conditions. It also says that other viruses sometimes resulted in the start of diabetes. That is something that I didn't know.

Off topic. I do have some advice for you, and any other carb addict who reads this. If you are a carb addict like I am, do some intense aerobic exercise, even fast walking a couple of miles per day may work. I'm not predisposed to diabetes but my yearly blood glucose levels have dropped a bit since I increased my exercise to 7 days a week for 30 to 45 minutes, despite eating more sweets and carbs than ever. Of course, there are limits, but I'm in better shape at 71 than I ever was in my 30s or 40s. Brisk exercise might help you too. There's a lot of research that suggests that exercise is even more important than diet.

Back on topic. I don't understand why the virus may predispose a healthy person to diabetes but considering the high number of cases, it's unlikely that it's due to all of these people being predisposed to diabetes. Plus, it mentioned that diabetics who had COVID had higher than usual blood glucose levels, so there might be something to these claims. There is still so much that medical science doesn't fully understand about this awful virus.
 
Top Bottom