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Covid-19 miscellany

Loren Pechtel

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WHO is pressing the panic button and bumps the variant ahead of the line and now this is a "Variant of Concern". Went from click bait to umm... this could suck pretty quick. But it is still VERY early on.
I've been wearing masks from the start, and I'm fully vaccinated. This is serious. It's sad to see how people don't see it that way...

Yup. When the CDC was easing up I didn't because I figured a variant would blow up on us--and along came Delta. And the first looks at Omicron look much worse than Delta. It's not a descendant of Delta, all those morons who took the chance on natural immunity are liable to find it doesn't work anymore. On the other hand, I've seen estimates that tailored vaccines could be made in 100 days. Minor recoding of the target doesn't require full-blown testing like the original vaccine received. (And before people start screaming about this--it's the same with the flu vaccine. A minor change in the targeting gets a phase 1 trial, not the whole works.)
 

Loren Pechtel

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This was presented by HR at the company meeting where I currently work on October 6th this year. The claim is that the CDC forecasts a decline to next to nothing by March but the CDC doesn't make forecasts like this. The chart is not a CDC source.

The announcement was that the company plan would be for everyone to be required back in the office 3 days a week Nov and Dec and then 4 days a week starting January.

What would your reaction be if shown this slide?

View attachment 36205

I would figure it came from the QOP.
 

Loren Pechtel

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I have questioned that too for quite a while now. Some industry claims that requiring vaccination will make it harder to fill open positions. I wonder if the lack of an employee vaccine requirement may be keeping even more people away. Even health care. If I was a health care worker i would NOT take a job where vaccination was not required

Wouldn't make much difference to me--in such positions I'd be more afraid of the customers than the staff.

In practice--I'm not going to the office, period. I've been on site 3 times in now 7? years, I know they're not careful, there won't be a 4th time until this is over. (And there might never be a fourth time anyway.)
 

crazyfingers

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This was presented by HR at the company meeting where I currently work on October 6th this year. The claim is that the CDC forecasts a decline to next to nothing by March but the CDC doesn't make forecasts like this. The chart is not a CDC source.

The announcement was that the company plan would be for everyone to be required back in the office 3 days a week Nov and Dec and then 4 days a week starting January.

What would your reaction be if shown this slide?

View attachment 36205

I would figure it came from the QOP.
What's QOP?
 

Angra Mainyu

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Loren Pechtel said:
It's not a descendant of Delta, all those morons who took the chance on natural immunity are liable to find it doesn't work anymore.
That might happen. Or it might happen the other way: maybe those with natural immunity will still have stronger immunity than those vaccinated (with viral vector or mRNA vaccines) because the new virus is similar enough to the old ones in parts that aren't the spike protein to give a reasonable amount of protection, but the spike protein is too different from those vaccinated with that kind of vaccines. Or maybe both will work. Or maybe Omicron would just not be lethal enough to be a serious threat. We do not really know at this point.

Loren Pechtel said:
Minor recoding of the target doesn't require full-blown testing like the original vaccine received. (And before people start screaming about this--it's the same with the flu vaccine. A minor change in the targeting gets a phase 1 trial, not the whole works.)
Of course, but it's a problem if the people who scream about it are in a position of power and can force the tests before deployment of the vaccine (well, it's a problem if Omicron turns out to be a serious problem; else, we got lucky. We'll have to wait and see). It was already bad enough that they went through all the tests before vaccination. As some pointed out before phase 3 trials, the vaccines would have saved many lives if deployed earlier. The expected value given the risks was much better. But we'll see. Maybe we'll get lucky and this thing will kill less or much less than previous variants.
 

barbos

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Omicron seems to be affecting young people predominantly and symptoms are just severe headache. No lungs problems, no temperature, no loss of sense of taste/smell.
Of course these are young people.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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Omicron seems to be affecting young people predominantly and symptoms are just severe headache. No lungs problems, no temperature, no loss of sense of taste/smell.
Of course these are young people.
Anecdotal, limited source, from South Africa, but hopefully it continues pushing that way. The doctor also indicated that unvax'd were affected more. I fear that this being good news will weaken the WHO more because people will overstate what going VOC with Omicron meant.
 

barbos

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Well, technically it is consistent with theory. Viruses which start as deadly, evolve to become more infectious but less (immediately) deadly.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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ATLANTA, GA -- With at least a couple weeks until medical experts can begin parsing data collected since the debut of the Omicron variant, media companies will be struggling to stretch what miniscule information that exists now into articles.

The World Health Organization classified the latest variant, first detected in South Africa, as a "variant of concern" in light of the myriad of mutations it contains. The labeling provided nations and pharmaceutical companies the notification to begin hard research on the variant to determine whether this combination of mutations would be an issue for existing vaccines, as well as those with natural immunity.

However, with that data collection just beginning, there is virtually nothing media companies will be able to speak on until the data collection is completed and the numbers analyzed, leaving them powerless to actually report on this in such a way that won't be monotonous and repetitive and repetitive.

"There are only so many times you can say 'mutations on the spike protein'," indicated Sally Wetherfield, an editor with CNN.
 

Loren Pechtel

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This was presented by HR at the company meeting where I currently work on October 6th this year. The claim is that the CDC forecasts a decline to next to nothing by March but the CDC doesn't make forecasts like this. The chart is not a CDC source.

The announcement was that the company plan would be for everyone to be required back in the office 3 days a week Nov and Dec and then 4 days a week starting January.

What would your reaction be if shown this slide?

View attachment 36205

I would figure it came from the QOP.
What's QOP?
GOP + Q
 

lpetrich

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GOP Rep. Goes From Anti-Vax On Fox News To Pro -Vax On CNN In One Day - YouTube
Republican Congresswoman Nancy Mace (R-SC) literally spoke from both sides of her mouth about Covid-19 on Sunday night cable news as she promoted “natural immunity” to the virus on @Fox News and then Zoom'd in to @CNN to encourage people to get vaccinated.
Was Sunday, Nov 28. NM wore the same shirt in both appearances.

Sam Seder and his fellow commentators Emma Vigeland and Nomiki Konst then had a big chortle at NM's remarkable flip-flop performance.
 

Jarhyn

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I suspect this video was made solely for TSwizzle:


Wow, that twat has terrible taste in coats, hats.

At least he's making himself clear that he's a fucking twat.
 

thebeave

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GOP Rep. Goes From Anti-Vax On Fox News To Pro -Vax On CNN In One Day - YouTube
Republican Congresswoman Nancy Mace (R-SC) literally spoke from both sides of her mouth about Covid-19 on Sunday night cable news as she promoted “natural immunity” to the virus on @Fox News and then Zoom'd in to @CNN to encourage people to get vaccinated.
Was Sunday, Nov 28. NM wore the same shirt in both appearances.

Sam Seder and his fellow commentators Emma Vigeland and Nomiki Konst then had a big chortle at NM's remarkable flip-flop performance.
I watched the video, but I don't see where she said anything "anti-vax" on Fox News. She just talked about benefits of natural immunity...that doesn't mean you are against vaccination. Can you clarify?
 

T.G.G. Moogly

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I watched the video, but I don't see where she said anything "anti-vax" on Fox News. She just talked about benefits of natural immunity...that doesn't mean you are against vaccination. Can you clarify?
She's giving her supporters what they want to hear, both audiences. Not so mysterious considering she's a politician. I didn't watch the video so I cannot determine whether she answered any substantive questions with substantive answers. Is she taking a "both sides" position? If she is that is clearly anti-vax and anti-science. It's like not discussing that the earth is a sphere with a flat earther. Big woot.
 

marc

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I watched the video, but I don't see where she said anything "anti-vax" on Fox News. She just talked about benefits of natural immunity...that doesn't mean you are against vaccination. Can you clarify?
She's giving her supporters what they want to hear, both audiences. Not so mysterious considering she's a politician. I didn't watch the video so I cannot determine whether she answered any substantive questions with substantive answers. Is she taking a "both sides" position? If she is that is clearly anti-vax and anti-science. It's like not discussing that the earth is a sphere with a flat earther. Big woot.
From the Fox interview:

"In some studies that I have read natural immunity gives you 27 times more protection against future COVID infection than a vaccination. So we need to take all of the science into account and not selectively choosing what science to follow when we are making policy decisions."
The anti-vax part is saying natural immunity is sooo much better than any vaccination.

From CNN:
"and I've been a proponent of vaccinations and wearing masks when we need to when we had the Delta variant raging in South Carolina I wrote an op-ed to my community. And I worked with our state department of health. I run ads encouraging my district to go and get vaccinated. And when we have these variants and we have these spikes to take every precaution, from washing our hands to wearing the N95 or KN95 masks. More than the medical masks, there is a significant, statistically significant, number of people that are protected from COVID when they wear those masks"
No mention of masks when on Fox, no mention of the 'superiority' of natural immunity when on CNN.
 

Shadowy Man

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"In some studies that I have read natural immunity gives you 27 times more protection against future COVID infection than a vaccination. So we need to take all of the science into account and not selectively choosing what science to follow when we are making policy decisions."
The anti-vax part is saying natural immunity is sooo much better than any vaccination.
From what I’ve heard this is a misrepresentation (whether purposeful or not) of a study stating something of a 27 PERCENT increase, not 27 TIMES.
 

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GOP Rep. Goes From Anti-Vax On Fox News To Pro -Vax On CNN In One Day - YouTube
Republican Congresswoman Nancy Mace (R-SC) literally spoke from both sides of her mouth about Covid-19 on Sunday night cable news as she promoted “natural immunity” to the virus on @Fox News and then Zoom'd in to @CNN to encourage people to get vaccinated.
Was Sunday, Nov 28. NM wore the same shirt in both appearances.

Sam Seder and his fellow commentators Emma Vigeland and Nomiki Konst then had a big chortle at NM's remarkable flip-flop performance.
I watched the video, but I don't see where she said anything "anti-vax" on Fox News. She just talked about benefits of natural immunity...that doesn't mean you are against vaccination. Can you clarify?
When said on Fox news, it is speaking against vaccination. The bad faith is showing there.

The statements exist in a context you cannot ethically divorce them from.
 

ZiprHead

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The dentist I spoke of a few weeks ago is now on his third week of intensive care on a ventilator and is not expected to live.
 

thebeave

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I watched the video, but I don't see where she said anything "anti-vax" on Fox News. She just talked about benefits of natural immunity...that doesn't mean you are against vaccination. Can you clarify?
She's giving her supporters what they want to hear, both audiences. Not so mysterious considering she's a politician. I didn't watch the video so I cannot determine whether she answered any substantive questions with substantive answers. Is she taking a "both sides" position? If she is that is clearly anti-vax and anti-science. It's like not discussing that the earth is a sphere with a flat earther. Big woot.
From the Fox interview:

"In some studies that I have read natural immunity gives you 27 times more protection against future COVID infection than a vaccination. So we need to take all of the science into account and not selectively choosing what science to follow when we are making policy decisions."
The anti-vax part is saying natural immunity is sooo much better than any vaccination.

From CNN:
"and I've been a proponent of vaccinations and wearing masks when we need to when we had the Delta variant raging in South Carolina I wrote an op-ed to my community. And I worked with our state department of health. I run ads encouraging my district to go and get vaccinated. And when we have these variants and we have these spikes to take every precaution, from washing our hands to wearing the N95 or KN95 masks. More than the medical masks, there is a significant, statistically significant, number of people that are protected from COVID when they wear those masks"
No mention of masks when on Fox, no mention of the 'superiority' of natural immunity when on CNN.
It is not anti-vax to say natural immunity is better than vaccination. The other point is, is that the video appears to be selectively edited, as is common with news media who have a narrative to show. It would be nice to see the complete, unedited interviews from both Fox and CNN...then we can have a discussion.
 

thebeave

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"In some studies that I have read natural immunity gives you 27 times more protection against future COVID infection than a vaccination. So we need to take all of the science into account and not selectively choosing what science to follow when we are making policy decisions."
The anti-vax part is saying natural immunity is sooo much better than any vaccination.
From what I’ve heard this is a misrepresentation (whether purposeful or not) of a study stating something of a 27 PERCENT increase, not 27 TIMES.
That may be true. I've heard different stories on which is better (natural immunity or vaccination)...seems like it's something that should be settled by now.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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I watched the video, but I don't see where she said anything "anti-vax" on Fox News. She just talked about benefits of natural immunity...that doesn't mean you are against vaccination. Can you clarify?
She's giving her supporters what they want to hear, both audiences. Not so mysterious considering she's a politician. I didn't watch the video so I cannot determine whether she answered any substantive questions with substantive answers. Is she taking a "both sides" position? If she is that is clearly anti-vax and anti-science. It's like not discussing that the earth is a sphere with a flat earther. Big woot.
From the Fox interview:

"In some studies that I have read natural immunity gives you 27 times more protection against future COVID infection than a vaccination. So we need to take all of the science into account and not selectively choosing what science to follow when we are making policy decisions."
The anti-vax part is saying natural immunity is sooo much better than any vaccination.

From CNN:
"and I've been a proponent of vaccinations and wearing masks when we need to when we had the Delta variant raging in South Carolina I wrote an op-ed to my community. And I worked with our state department of health. I run ads encouraging my district to go and get vaccinated. And when we have these variants and we have these spikes to take every precaution, from washing our hands to wearing the N95 or KN95 masks. More than the medical masks, there is a significant, statistically significant, number of people that are protected from COVID when they wear those masks"
No mention of masks when on Fox, no mention of the 'superiority' of natural immunity when on CNN.
It is not anti-vax to say natural immunity is better than vaccination.
The way Fox cut it does point that way. She is "encouraging" people to not get vaccinated because natural immunity is better (27 times! which there is absolutely no data to suggest a difference, forget put a number to it). So you can say she isn't being "anti-vax", but Fox sold it as such.
The other point is, is that the video appears to be selectively edited, as is common with news media who have a narrative to show. It would be nice to see the complete, unedited interviews from both Fox and CNN...then we can have a discussion.
Fox... bias? Get people killed? NO!!!! You don't say.
 

repoman

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Molnupiravir got passed by a narrow 13-10 margin. The way that it works by making the virus have very faulty transcription seems like a way to make more variants, especially in people who don't take the full course.

Also, at least Merck will get their promised $1.2 billion contract fulfilled.

Hate to say it, seems like Pfizer's antiviral is a masterstroke in a good way.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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Molnupiravir got passed by a narrow 13-10 margin. The way that it works by making the virus have very faulty transcription seems like a way to make more variants, especially in people who don't take the full course.

Also, at least Merck will get their promised $1.2 billion contract fulfilled.
Thanks for your studied opinion on the subject.
 

lpetrich

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What the 14th Century Plague Tells Us About How Covid Will Change Politics - POLITICO - "Regions hit hardest by the Black Death in Europe looked more democratic centuries later. What does that mean for society coming out of this pandemic?"
Nearly 700 years ago, Europe experienced the single most devastating pandemic in recorded human history. Within a timespan of roughly four years (1347–1351), an outbreak of plague tread an awful path across most of the continent, claiming the lives of about half of the population. Economic activities like mining and metallurgy came to a complete stop. In some cases, villages constructed around marginal agricultural lands were entirely abandoned, to be reclaimed by the forests. Chroniclers at the time referred to the event as the “Great Mortality” — today we know it as the Black Death.

Yet the legacy of the Black Death goes well beyond human suffering. The unparalleled pandemic did not just devastate the population in the areas it hit the hardest; it killed off entire social and economic institutions — especially ones that had, up until that point, restricted human freedom and stifled prosperity.
Noting
Pandemics and Political Development | World Politics | Cambridge Core
with abstract
Do pandemics have lasting consequences for political behavior? The authors address this question by examining the consequences of the deadliest pandemic of the last millennium: the Black Death (1347–1351). They claim that pandemics can influence politics in the long run if the loss of life is high enough to increase the price of labor relative to other factors of production. When this occurs, labor-repressive regimes, such as serfdom, become untenable, which ultimately leads to the development of proto-democratic institutions and associated political cultures that shape modalities of political engagement for generations. The authors test their theory by tracing the consequences of the Black Death in German-speaking Central Europe. They find that areas hit hardest by that pandemic were more likely to adopt inclusive political institutions and equitable land ownership patterns, to exhibit electoral behavior indicating independence from landed elite influence during the transition to mass politics, and to have significantly lower vote shares for Hitler’s National Socialist Party in the Weimar Republic’s fateful 1930 and July 1932 elections.
Back to Politico.
How precisely did the Black Death have this kind of impact? Medieval medicine understood neither how the plague spread nor how it could be treated. Today we know that plague is primarily transmitted to humans by infected rat fleas, but doctors in the 14th century commonly attributed the disease to poison in the air. Easily treated by antibiotics today, treatments at the time consisted of ineffective and potentially damaging procedures such as bloodletting. If allowed to take its course, plague has extremely high mortality — roughly 60 percent-70 percent of afflicted individuals will succumb to the disease. So when the plague entered Europe via trading routes with Central Asia, the result was a calamity of unfathomable magnitude.

The effects of mass death on the economic fortunes of workers were profound. On the eve of the Black Death, Europe was characterized by feudalism, a hierarchical social and economic system with military aristocrats (and the clergy) at the top and a large mass of peasant laborers at the bottom. Because the economy was overwhelmingly agricultural, the elite’s capital was held almost exclusively as land. Peasants were tied to this land through a highly exploitative system of forced labor called serfdom, which demanded the uncompensated provision of labor and greatly restricted workers’ mobility.

The demographic collapse wrought by the Black Death was a fundamental shock to this system — at least it was in the areas where the toll of the plague was high. The basic laws of supply and demand explain why. In areas where the plague hit hard, it decimated the labor force. At the same time, the disease left the upper classes’ main capital asset, land, completely untouched. Thus, one factor of economic production, labor, suddenly became scarce and expensive, while the other, land, became abundant and cheap. The result was a massive increase in peasants’ bargaining power. Thus, workers were able to demand better working conditions, improve their access to land and, given the challenges elites faced in policing their movement, migrate to the cities. In the years immediately following the Black Death, serfdom collapsed and was replaced by a wage economy based on free labor.
Western Europe was very badly affected by the Yersinia plague, as I like to call it, and it became more democratic. By comparison, Eastern Europe stayed less democratic, with serfdom lasting longer. This was evident in the German-speaking areas, where the western parts became more democratic than the eastern parts.
We find that areas of Central Europe that experienced high mortality from the Black Death — leading to an early end for serfdom — developed more inclusive political institutions at the local level, such as the use of elections to select city councils. These changes initially resulted from shifts in the organization of agriculture. In areas where the Black Death hit hard, elites were forced to decentralize much of the everyday control over agricultural management to the peasants themselves. This created a local need for coordination, since agricultural production at the village-level could only be successful if peasants agreed on the crops to be harvested and the division of labor in the agricultural round. As a consequence of these early experiences with self-governance, peasant villages began to demand the right to elect their own officials. Over time, this led to wider and wider participation in collective self-governance at the local level. Such experiences fostered a lasting culture of civic engagement and cooperation that proved essential for safeguarding the freedoms of laborers from future attempts by elites to roll back the gains won in the wake of the Black Death.
 

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Omicron has hit the US. A person in California who had recently traveled to S Africa has been diagnosed with it.
 

lpetrich

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The authors then try to assess whether the COVID-19 pandemic is likely to have similar effects.
But will today’s Covid-19 pandemic lead to lasting social changes akin to those encountered in medieval Europe? While we are very skeptical that Covid will lead to changes that are as drastic or long lasting — as neither the destructive power of today’s pandemic nor the technological constraints on the economy are comparable — some of the dynamics of social change we are currently witnessing do resemble those observed in the wake of the Black Death.
They are skeptical because the current pandemic is not nearly as deadly as the Black Death, thus meaning that it has less far-reaching effects.
 

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Omicron has hit the US. A person in California who had recently traveled to S Africa has been diagnosed with it.\

I heard that earlier today, but let's face it. It's probably been here for awhile and we just didn't know it yet. Before we freak out, we need a lot more information regarding how effective the current vaccine is against this strain, if it's really more contagious that Delta and is it more serious than many of the other strains. Hopefully, in a week or two, we will know if we need to freak out or not.

Happily, despite our vaccine rate only being about 50%, the cases in Georgia are still very low. There were 60 cases in my county of 69,000 people over the last two weeks. That's 60 cases that we know about. I assume there were more that were asymptomatic or so mild that no tests were performed. The weather is very mild this week in Ga. so maybe we will be okay for a little bit longer.
 

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Agree firmly on the idea that we need more information before panicking.

There were 60 cases in my county of 69,000 people over the last two weeks. That's 60 cases that we know about. I assume there were more that were asymptomatic or so mild that no tests were performed.

Your county with 69,000 people is almost 3 times the size of my county, which has about 24,000 people. Our cases over the past two weeks are 68 active cases verified by testing; no telling how many other mild cases exist. Our vaccination rate is just one third of the population. The whole situation here is just plain depressing.

Ruth
 

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Omicron has hit the US. A person in California who had recently traveled to S Africa has been diagnosed with it.

Yup. Was inevitable. Wondering that the contact tracing discovered about transmissible - if anything.
According to the report I saw, all his fellow travellers were tested negative. He had two vaxes but no booster. It seems incubation was seven days compared to Delta's four. And he had a mild case.
 

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FFjSVDMXwAkCRfb
 

Jimmy Higgins

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Omicron found in Minnesota. It is popping up here and there. And we wait for it to battle Delta.

So, it is out there. Thankfully it wasn't (presumably) in Ann Arbor last weekend.
 

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Buh bye, asshole.
His name was Lamb and he blindly followed right wing talking points? *chef's kiss*. The winner of the Herman Cain Award is going to be a difficult choice this season.

His name was Lamb and also he took sheep drench. But it wasn't taking ivermectin instead of a vaccine that is to blame for this outcome.


“There’s no doubt in my mind that this is a spiritual attack from the enemy,” Lamb’s son, Jonathan, said about his father’s COVID-19 illness on a Nov. 23 broadcast of the Ministry Now program. “As much as my parents have gone on here to kind of inform everyone about everything going on to the pandemic and some of the ways to treat COVID — there’s no doubt that the enemy is not happy about that. And he’s doing everything he can to take down my Dad.”

It was Satan. :devil2:
 

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That aside, you say "Society has not only the right, but a duty to force such people to behave in a way that doesn't endanger others, or to deprive them of their liberty if tbey persist in their harmful behaviour. That applies equally to those who persist in refusing a vaccination against a deadly disease, as it does to those who persist in driving while drunk.".

How deadly?

The flu is a deadly disease: it kills many people. Covid is much deadlier. But again, where to draw the line? (at any rate, how about those willing to get infected and isolated to get immunity? )

1) Flu is not a serious threat to a healthy person. They conduct medical studies in which (young, healthy) people are deliberately infected with flu. That is considered acceptable medical practice because it poses basically zero risk of serious consequences to the test subjects.

2) We have already learned that getting infected doesn't produce immunity--you're immune to that version but it very well might not protect you from variants. The vaccine (other than the Chinese crap that's a killed-virus vaccine, provides about the same protection as prior infection--bad) provides better protection than prior infection.
Influenza is not usually a serious disease to a healthy person. My daughter (20's) became quite ill with the flu a few years back and was nearly hospitalized. I was extremely ill with the flu about 20 years ago, which has prompted me to always get my flu shot ever since.

We don't know how long immunity to any version lasts, whether immunity was acquired through disease or through infection, although evidence seems to indicate that it is most effective for about 5-6 months. Vaccination does seem to provide protection against serious disease from known variants but we do not know for how long or if it will remain effective against future variants or even all those currently known.

We DO know that variants are arising in unvaccinated people, meaning that remaining unvaccinated isn't merely a personal choice but also a threat to the general population wherever you live and travel and also world wide.
 

jab

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Interesting. So the intelligent anti-vaxxers are actually outliers. That confirms to me that their stance is more likely to be taken as a result of personal egoism and desire to make themselves important, as they are the ones pushing the conspiracy theories.
I wouldn't want to jump to conclusions about that about the more intelligent sort of anti-vaxxers, even though I consider the anti-vaxx position difficult to support. Some of them may be doing as a way of owning the libs, for instance.
And that is an intelligent reason?
It's a bad reason, yes, but one might wish that they would be more willing to reassess their anti-vaxx position rather than thinking about how best they can own the libs.
Actually, it may be more related than you think. "Owning the libs" is basically an expression of personal ego. Just take a look at all those politicians who are pushing their "conservative agenda". They wouldn't do that unless they thought it would add to their public visibility and increase their importance in the eyes of their constituents. The same is true of those doctors and scientists who are pushing back against the vaccine; they have found a way to make themselves highly visible and make money too. I don't think it actually has a single thing to do with what they actually know or believe.
If you want to know what more intelligent people who reject vaccines believe, I would suggest reading their arguments. Some are just rattled because some of their freedoms are taken away in a way that interferes seriously with their lifestyle (which involves not using medicine for the most part, avoiding processed foods or other things when doable, etc.).
Their freedoms are not as important as their health.

And even if they are stupid enough to believe that they are, their freedoms are most certainly not more important than my health.

People who engage in behaviours that are damaging to others are routinely restrained from doing so by society. That's pretty much the sole purpose of society in the first place.

I have zero sympathy for childish individualists who insist that they have the freedom to endanger others. Society has not only the right, but a duty to force such people to behave in a way that doesn't endanger others, or to deprive them of their liberty if tbey persist in their harmful behaviour. That applies equally to those who persist in refusing a vaccination against a deadly disease, as it does to those who persist in driving while drunk.

Fuck their lifestyle. My lifestyle requires that my family don't have their lives endangered by the counter-factual beliefs of spoiled middle class brats whose lives have been so effectively protected against disease that they have no concept of how dangerous it can be.

You can tell when someone is "more intelligent", by the fact that they do NOT reject vaccines. (Or clean water, or food safety standards, or traffic regulations, or any of the thousands of technological and social advances that enable us to live long, healthy, and pleasant lives).
I suppose these intelligent people also think they should be allowed to drive while inebriated with organic, naturally produced brew.
 

jab

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Well, the guy I mentioned is willing to get infected and isolated. But that aside, generally these people do not believe they are endangering others (yes, they are mistaken, but the motivation is different).
So these people are stupid.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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Minnesota Omicron case was community spread. So Omicron is here, and we await to see its impact.

We had a company meeting on federal mandated vaccination because in civil engineering, very few jobs don't involve Fed money (no new taxes!), there were some ridiculous questions and comments from the anti-vaxxers. One sounded like the bodily fluids Brig. General in Dr. Strangelove.

Well, the guy I mentioned is willing to get infected and isolated. But that aside, generally these people do not believe they are endangering others (yes, they are mistaken, but the motivation is different).
So these people are stupid.
And said stupidity would have been okay a while ago, but there is no excuse at this point. It has gone from stupidity to stupid willful denial.
 

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jab

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Sure thing, a guy making it easy for you to protect yourself from a deadly disease is to blame instead of the plague rats. :thumbsup:

“Plague rats”, how quaint. But in any event, for the vast majority of people, vaccinated or not, covid 19 is not a deadly disease.
Slice and spin them stats to create a false perception. The problem is, as you know, is the part you just sliced out of your statistical special pleading: covid-19 is highly infectious, so it--pushed along by its wilful Covid Dons--kills a lot of people (and has long-term effects on a lot more).
 

jab

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1. Suppose I say "COVID usually only kills those fully vaccinated people who are already severely weakened.". Do you have evidence that the 'usually' is more so for the flu, and by a significant margin?
To put it in other words, do you have good evidence that the flu is less dangerous than COVID is to fully vaccinated people, and also by a margin that would justify radically different treatments.

Further, suppose you add face masks - good and properly used. Do you think COVID poses overall a significantly greater risk to fully vaccinated people when unvaccinated people are wearing good masks, than the flu?

2. Even if they are severely weakened, it does not mean something else will get them - especially not if respiratory illnesses are not around.
Relevance to your argument?
 

jab

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Before Delta, but after Alpha, Gamma and Lambda, and it still worked against those. So, it does work against variants - at least, against those that were around when the study was carried out. Do you think it would not work against Delta? Well, now Delta is here, and fatalities continue to fall, and as far as one can tell, it continues to work. Sure, you could say they fall for another reason, and it does not work anymore. But do you have evidence of that?
Omicron, anyone?
 
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