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Covid-19 miscellany

Loren Pechtel

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There's a grain of truth in what Swiz is saying. Vaccinations are good, and even 99.99 percent of antivaxers would get vaxed for a major illness. But would you keep getting vaxed against the common cold or flu? I get a flu shot because it makes sense. I'm vaccinated against tetanus and shingles and a bunch of other things, and I suppose I'd get shots twice annually because those things are the pits.

What's the big deal about getting a vaccine?

But I just got over omicron myself. It sucked but it was just like a summer cold. I guess if I wore a mask while I was ill it would help keep others from getting ill but I just stayed at home, and recovered. The point is that Omicron is not as deadly and that's a good thing so I feel less threatened than I did a year ago.

I'm not saying to not get the shots, I'm talking about the masks.

It's not as deadly but having had the vaccine goes a long way towards reducing it's severity.
 

Loren Pechtel

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The vaccine wasn't designed for omicron. It was designed for alpha. We got lucky in that it worked for delta too. I assume an omicron vax is already being developed.

Yup, expected in March. Probably too late to be of any great value. The mRNA vaccines are easy to retarget against variants and such retargeting doesn't require anywhere near the testing that starting from scratch does. We do the same thing every year with the flu vaccine.
 

Loren Pechtel

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I think there is an additional error here. Having 11 people living together, not masking, not quarantining dramatically increases exposure incidents when 1 household member is sick. There is something apples to oranges about that environment versus a study. If each person in the household has 1000 exposures to the sick one in that environment, I am not sure we should incorporate those 11 into a larger set at all. Maybe?? ...we could say the vax protects you 50% when you have an average number of exposures over 6 months...but there's probably also a distribution of viral load there, too, correlated to the 50%. Home environment with no masking, no quarantining, sharing considerable air will hit some threshold viral load with multiple exposures.
Yup--11 people living together, I don't think the vaccine has much of a chance against Omicron, other than to reduce the severity.

The thing is the amount of exposure makes a big difference. We saw back with the Wuhan strain that a great enough initial exposure was very dangerous even to the young and healthy. (We saw this in the doctors that were killed before we had adequate PPE.)

Vaccines are always about giving the body a head start against the pathogen, giving it a chance to kill it promptly before it has a chance to get a foothold. However, if the initial exposure is high enough it's going to get the foothold anyway.
 

Loren Pechtel

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I wonder if rules like college students needing a booster of two year old version of the virus ten days after current omicron infection when there will be an omicron vaccine by March or April make people so pissed off at the system that they become like the QAnon cultists in the post above.

Boosters were only really touted in the first FDA panel discussions for 65+ and immune compromised and then it got rammed through later.

What juice is worth what squeeze for a freshly infected/recovered double vaxxed college student? Get a booster or fuck off? Is this reality?

What kind of over charged immune response will that student have?

Have you no sense of decency?
Vaccines don't overcharge your immune system.
 

bilby

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Anyway you look at it, any evidence to consider still shows that vaccinated people can and do spread the virus. So the vaccine is a bit of a bust as far as “stopping the spread” is concerned. Therefore the vaccine mandates and passports are not warranted
Both I and Serena Williams can play tennis.

So Serena is a bit of a bust, as far as "playing great tennis" is concerned.

Therefore big prize money for Grand Slam winners is not warranted.
 

Angra Mainyu

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TSwizzle said:
Dear oh dear. Look, I go by my experiences. 11 out of 11, that's 100%.
That is epistically incorrect, given the rest of the evidence available to you.

TSwizzle said:
Do the vaccines really, really, really work? Well they are somewhat effective at keeping the symptoms mild for the first few months apparently. Then after a few months it starts to get a bit iffy. So now you need to get "vaccinated" once a week, once a month, once a quarter, who knows? There is no way to tell what the vaccine did (if anything) for me and the others in my circle. And now you tell me the booster did hee-haw.
Well, you can take a look at the numbers. Vaccinated people are much less prone to serious illness and death, even without the boosters. But it is also true the boosters increase protection by a significant factor. Also, it's certain that once a week or month is no good. Once every four months is definitely an improvement over 6 since at 6 the effectiveness fell considerably, so definitely not as long as 6 months. I'm no expert, but I'd say with the current sort of vaccines, between 3 and 4 months would give a signficant improvement in immunity, which you ought to weigh against the side effects and other considerations.


TSwizzle said:
No it's not. Earlier I said I've been vaccinated against Polio once in my life (shingles too). I've had a covid "vaccine" three times in less than 12 months. That's not a vaccine, it's a quasi flu shot. Even then I only ever got the flu shot once a year!! I'm not going to start getting "vaccinated" willy nilly, you go right ahead if you like but I'm done.
The sarcasm is out of place because there is enough info to know that vaccines help considerably reduce the severity of illness. If you do not want to call them 'vaccines', regardless, call them 'things that you get via a shot, which generally have some annoying by minor side effects and reduce the chances of serious covid by a lot' or whatever (I think 'vaccine' is simpler, though, and it is a correct usage of the term in English).

It is true, though, that vaccines can be pretty annoying, so maybe 6 months would be good enough for you - after all, you already got covid before the booster could take effect, and didn't do much, so there is that.
I meant to say "epistemically incorrect", sorry about the typo.
 

Angra Mainyu

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TSwizzle said:
Anyway you look at it, any evidence to consider still shows that vaccinated people can and do spread the virus.
Some vaccinated people do. Also, some vaccinated people get sick, not just infected. And some vaccinated people die of covid. The evidence I was talking about is about the rate at which those things happen. And my point was that looking at evidence from 11 people is not a proper way of making an assessment. The father of a coworker got Omicron, but his mother (who is the father's wife and lives with him) did not get infected. Neither did two more people in the same household, all vaccinated, living together etc. Should I conclude that vaccinated people who get infected do not pass it to other vaccinated people ever, ignoring the rest of the evidence? No, that would be epistemically improper.

The fact is that vaccines have different degrees of effectiveness against different things (infection, illness, serious illness, death), as the data involving large numbers of people show. With Omicron, their effectiveness has fallen further, that is true. Probably in the future there will be better vaccines.


TSwizzle said:
So the vaccine is a bit of a bust as far as “stopping the spread” is concerned.
It doesn't stop it, sure. But it slows it down, though to a lesser extent that before.

TSwizzle said:
Therefore the vaccine mandates and passports are not warranted.
That's another matter. A common argument that I've encountered is that vaccine passports are needed to reduce the rate at which the unvaccinated get infected; otherwise, they put too much pressure on the health care system, occupying many ICU beds that others can't use as a result. As for vaccine mandates, also the objective would be to protect the health care system and save the lives of other people who need to be in the ICU.

In the city where I live, I think that's not a good justification because there are more than enough ICU beds now. But other places might be in a more difficult situation.
 

barbos

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20% daily jump in Russia. Looks like omicron to me.
Another jump. Definitely omicron spike.

I blame Obama Biden for allowing plague rats travel to Europe.
 

Angra Mainyu

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Well, finally I'm getting my booster shot tomorrow - somewhat late, but it could have been worse.

They tell me it's a Pfizer vaccine (after 2 doses of AZ). Over here, Pfizer's vaccine have been authorized for use up to 90 days after the expiration date (not to throw them away then they expire, perhaps due to mismanagement), and it seems a considerable percentage are indeed expired, though I do not know the actual numbers.
I'm not sure what impact - if any - that would have on effectiveness if I get an expired vaccine. I know many drugs are okay after the expiration date, but I'm not sure for how long that would be for the Pfizer vaccine.
Best wishes. I hope you don't get an expired vaccine booster.
Thanks.

Btw, they didn't tell me whether it was expired, but since they use the expired ones first (as they are closed to the new expiration date, set 90 days after the original ones), and they seem to have plenty of those, I probably did get an expired one. But it's probably okay.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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How many people who’ve had the Polio vaccine got Polio?
And how regularly did one get vaccinated against Polio? I believe I have had one Polio vaccination in my life. I've had three covid vaccinations in less than 12 months. And I still got the effing covid.
Well, if some Americans weren't assholes about vaccination and masking and distancing... but no, they needed to help breed variants.
Like AOC?
But... what about Ocasio-Cortez?

Obsession for men.
 

ZiprHead

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The vaccine wasn't designed for omicron. It was designed for alpha. We got lucky in that it worked for delta too. I assume an omicron vax is already being developed.

Yup, expected in March. Probably too late to be of any great value. The mRNA vaccines are easy to retarget against variants and such retargeting doesn't require anywhere near the testing that starting from scratch does. We do the same thing every year with the flu vaccine.
Thanks for that info. I did not know that.
 

repoman

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Thiis video from 53:07 to the end gives me pause for getting the OG vaccine booster when the Omicron vaccine is only a couple months away. Not just poorly effective, but maybe counter effective?

 

TSwizzle

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Covid insanity in Canada;

A Quebec Superior Court judge has temporarily suspended a father's right to see his child based on evidence that the man is not vaccinated against COVID-19 and appears to oppose government anti-pandemic health measures. In a decision published Dec. 23, Justice J. Sébastien Vaillancourt wrote that continued visitation was not in the interest of the 12-year-old child or the child's two younger half-siblings, given the state of the pandemic.

News

What's that all aboot, eh?
 

repoman

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Covid insanity in Canada;

A Quebec Superior Court judge has temporarily suspended a father's right to see his child based on evidence that the man is not vaccinated against COVID-19 and appears to oppose government anti-pandemic health measures. In a decision published Dec. 23, Justice J. Sébastien Vaillancourt wrote that continued visitation was not in the interest of the 12-year-old child or the child's two younger half-siblings, given the state of the pandemic.

News

What's that all aboot, eh?
Will he be allowed visitation in April if covid numbers are very low then?
 

TSwizzle

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Boris Johnson (UK Prime Minister) is catching a lot of flack for breaking covid protocols by having a party at his home/office at No 10 and is forced to apologize;

Boris Johnson has ordered a No10 minion to apologise to the Queen over a lockdown-busting leaving do in Downing Street just hours before Prince Philip's funeral. The PM's spokesman said an apology had been made to Buckingham Palace over the 'regrettable' behaviour in April last year. 'It is deeply regrettable that this took place at a time of national mourning and No10 has apologised to the Palace,' the spokesman said.

Daily Mail

These revelations are hardly surprising but it has triggered a lot of ire to towards the PM from the public. The public should be angry at themselves for going along with the bogus restrictions from the onset.
 

T.G.G. Moogly

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Made a Trader Joe's run today. Went in unmasked but everyone inside was masked so I masked up too. Some local stores have signs encouraging mask wearing but there was nothing in TJ's. Different cut of people shop at TJ's.
 

Don2 (Don1 Revised)

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Boris Johnson (UK Prime Minister) is catching a lot of flack for breaking covid protocols by having a party at his home/office at No 10 and is forced to apologize;

Boris Johnson has ordered a No10 minion to apologise to the Queen over a lockdown-busting leaving do in Downing Street just hours before Prince Philip's funeral. The PM's spokesman said an apology had been made to Buckingham Palace over the 'regrettable' behaviour in April last year. 'It is deeply regrettable that this took place at a time of national mourning and No10 has apologised to the Palace,' the spokesman said.

Daily Mail

These revelations are hardly surprising but it has triggered a lot of ire to towards the PM from the public. The public should be angry at themselves for going along with the bogus restrictions from the onset.

So to be clear, Republicans should not be angry with Boris Johnson for having an inside party with packed people running around maskless inside for hours, but instead should be angry at AOC who was not wearing a mask outside and hugged someone for a few seconds.
 

TSwizzle

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The vaccination insanity is everywhere (not Florida of course);

On January 11th after a significant snow storm, Kittitas County officials offered to help the Washington State Department of Transportation (WSDOT) clear snow on state roads that go through the county’s communities. WSDOT, which has a staffing shortage and is actively trying to hire maintenance crew, declined. The agency noted they could not accept assistance “due to Kittitas County not mandating the COVID-19 vaccination for County employees.” The county said in a press release that the snowfall on January 5th and 6th “resulted in the closure of Interstate 90 and Highway 97 for three days, causing freight deliveries to be delayed, travel across the State of Washington impossible, and access to services significantly impacted.” The Governor’s vaccine mandate for state employees resulted in the firing of over 400 employees at WSDOT, with 48 employees “no longer working to support the state maintenance and snow removal efforts in Kittitas County.” The county had signed an interlocal agreement with WSDOT in late 2021, which essentially put them on call to help WSDOT should they need assistance at any point.

News

Roads were allowed to remain closed because a the guys who drive the snowplows were fired for not getting the vaccine.
 

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From the Daily Beast:

“Do you know right now, I have something that [you can bring] into a building, that will clean you of COVID, as you walk through this, this dry mist?” Walker asks.
Beck, processing this information, squints. Walker interprets this as an invitation to proceed.
“As you walk through the door, it will kill any COVID on your body,” he continues. He leans in and adds, “EPA-, FDA-approved.”
“When you leave—it will kill the virus as you leave, this here product,” Walker says. He adds that he has a second unspecified miracle product, a “spray” possibly indicated for use after the dry mist treatment.
“They don’t want to talk about that. They don’t want to hear about that,” Walker says. “And I’m serious.”
Raid?
 

Jarhyn

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Boris Johnson (UK Prime Minister) is catching a lot of flack for breaking covid protocols by having a party at his home/office at No 10 and is forced to apologize;

Boris Johnson has ordered a No10 minion to apologise to the Queen over a lockdown-busting leaving do in Downing Street just hours before Prince Philip's funeral. The PM's spokesman said an apology had been made to Buckingham Palace over the 'regrettable' behaviour in April last year. 'It is deeply regrettable that this took place at a time of national mourning and No10 has apologised to the Palace,' the spokesman said.

Daily Mail

These revelations are hardly surprising but it has triggered a lot of ire to towards the PM from the public. The public should be angry at themselves for going along with the bogus restrictions from the onset.

So to be clear, Republicans should not be angry with Boris Johnson for having an inside party with packed people running around maskless inside for hours, but instead should be angry at AOC who was not wearing a mask outside and hugged someone for a few seconds.
Yes, apparently?

Who cares about hypocrisy these days, anyway, right?
 

jab

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Boris Johnson (UK Prime Minister) is catching a lot of flack for breaking covid protocols by having a party at his home/office at No 10 and is forced to apologize;

Boris Johnson has ordered a No10 minion to apologise to the Queen over a lockdown-busting leaving do in Downing Street just hours before Prince Philip's funeral. The PM's spokesman said an apology had been made to Buckingham Palace over the 'regrettable' behaviour in April last year. 'It is deeply regrettable that this took place at a time of national mourning and No10 has apologised to the Palace,' the spokesman said.

Daily Mail

These revelations are hardly surprising but it has triggered a lot of ire to towards the PM from the public. The public should be angry at themselves for going along with the bogus restrictions from the onset.

So to be clear, Republicans should not be angry with Boris Johnson for having an inside party with packed people running around maskless inside for hours, but instead should be angry at AOC who was not wearing a mask outside and hugged someone for a few seconds.
It was an out-door, back-garden, packed gathering at 10 Downing, I believe; and that was against the lockdown rules in Britain.
 

bilby

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Unvaccinated people who show up at the ER and need medical care for covid should be charged out of pocket for all expenses.
No, they shouldn't.

Nobody should be charged for necessary medical care, under any circumstances; It should always be paid for from general revenue.

Recklessness and stupidity can't sensibly be made exceptions to that rule, because while it's quite possible to be reckless and stupid while also being too poor to pay the cost of treating the consequences, 'reckless stupidity while poor' shouldn't be enforced as a capital crime.

If you manage to kill yourself despite the best efforts of society to protect you, then too bad. But if you can be protected from yourself, humanity requires that you should be.

The unvaccinated deserve our derision and our scorn; But they don't deserve to die in the streets - and they certainly don't deserve to die in the streets for the crime of also being poor, while their wealthy brethren suffer only minor financial inconvenience for the same errors.

Access to healthcare should never be dependent on access to ready money - even in cases where the need is the result of reckless negligence.
 

Loren Pechtel

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Thiis video from 53:07 to the end gives me pause for getting the OG vaccine booster when the Omicron vaccine is only a couple months away. Not just poorly effective, but maybe counter effective?

I'm not going to waste my time on the video, but I have heard of the "counter effective" bit--crap extrapolation by the disinformation crowd.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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Unvaccinated people who show up at the ER and need medical care for covid should be charged out of pocket for all expenses.
No, they shouldn't.

Nobody should be charged for necessary medical care, under any circumstances; It should always be paid for from general revenue.

Recklessness and stupidity can't sensibly be made exceptions to that rule, because while it's quite possible to be reckless and stupid while also being too poor to pay the cost of treating the consequences, 'reckless stupidity while poor' shouldn't be enforced as a capital crime.

If you manage to kill yourself despite the best efforts of society to protect you, then too bad. But if you can be protected from yourself, humanity requires that you should be.

The unvaccinated deserve our derision and our scorn; But they don't deserve to die in the streets - and they certainly don't deserve to die in the streets for the crime of also being poor, while their wealthy brethren suffer only minor financial inconvenience for the same errors.

Access to healthcare should never be dependent on access to ready money - even in cases where the need is the result of reckless negligence.
That sounds great in theory. Then I think of the ERs that are packed full of fucking morons that have made the lives of our hard working medical and hospital staffs hell for the last 10 months. And if we include the bunch of people who holiday'd with family before the vaccine, that'd be 14 months. I think of those that needed medical care not of their own stupidity and have it delayed and the people who need medical care sleeping overnight in the ER because the resources aren't available yet. Scorn comes cheap and doesn't cost the anti-vax idiots a damn a thing.

What they are taking from others is much more expensive than the medical bill, of which they expect other people to pay.

And yes, before I was jaded by this nation voting Trump into office, I would have been much more amenable to your otherwise, reasonable statement.
 

repoman

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Thiis video from 53:07 to the end gives me pause for getting the OG vaccine booster when the Omicron vaccine is only a couple months away. Not just poorly effective, but maybe counter effective?

I'm not going to waste my time on the video, but I have heard of the "counter effective" bit--crap extrapolation by the disinformation crowd.
This is part 26 of a professional immunology lecture series given in 2018. It discusses the paradoxical aspects of "original antigenic sin" for influenza.
 

Swammerdami

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How many people who’ve had the Polio vaccine got Polio?
And how regularly did one get vaccinated against Polio? I believe I have had one Polio vaccination in my life. I've had three covid vaccinations in less than 12 months. And I still got the effing covid.
Well, if some Americans weren't assholes about vaccination and masking and distancing... but no, they needed to help breed variants.
Like AOC?
But... what about Ocasio-Cortez?

Obsession for men.

I also am somewhat confused about Covid and the vaccines. But I DID get this message:
COVID-19 vaccines also help prevent serious illness and death in children and adults even if they do get COVID-19.

In other news
Calvin Klein Obsession for Men starts with a fresh bergamot-mandarin accord that proceeds to a spicy heart accented with lavender and sage. Musk and sandalwood bring the fragrance to a long lasting, ambery finish.
 

crazyfingers

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I had a phone call with someone who was my best friend in elamentary and jr high school. We talk from time to time and did some camping about 20 years ago. He now lives in Arizona and believes some crazy shit.

He refuses to get vaccinated and doesn't wear masks inside public places unless it's required.

We try to avoid politics but we were talking about my imminent retirement and that while I'm not big in travel, my wife wants to go to Europe after the pandemic is under control.

He said the pandemic will never be under control because the Federal Government doesn't want to end the pandemic. I couldn't stand it. I told him that the pandemic will never go away so long as idiot republicans won't get vaccinated and won't wear masks in public indoor places.

It's amazing someone would think how he does. And he's an RN!
 

bilby

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I had a phone call with someone who was my best friend in elamentary and jr high school. We talk from time to time and did some camping about 20 years ago. He now lives in Arizona and believes some crazy shit.

He refuses to get vaccinated and doesn't wear masks inside public places unless it's required.

We try to avoid politics but we were talking about my imminent retirement and that while I'm not big in travel, my wife wants to go to Europe after the pandemic is under control.

He said the pandemic will never be under control because the Federal Government doesn't want to end the pandemic. I couldn't stand it. I told him that the pandemic will never go away so long as idiot republicans won't get vaccinated and won't wear masks in public indoor places.

It's amazing someone would think how he does. And he's an RN!
Did you mention to him that Europe, like 95% of the planet, isn't under the jurisdiction of the US federal government?
 
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crazyfingers

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I had a phone call with someone who was my best friend in elamentary and jr high school. We talk from time to time and did some camping about 20 years ago. He now lives in Arizona and believes some crazy shit.

He refuses to get vaccinated and doesn't wear masks inside public places unless it's required.

We try to avoid politics but we were talking about my imminent retirement and that while I'm not big in travel, my wife wants to go to Europe after the pandemic is under control.

He said the pandemic will never be under control because the Federal Government doesn't want to end the pandemic. I couldn't stand it. I told him that the pandemic will never go away so long as idiot republicans won't get vaccinated and won't wear masks in public indoor places.

It's amazing someone would think how he does. And he's an RN!
Did you mention to him that Europe, like 95% of the planet, isn't under the jurisdiction of the US federal government?

I only got one sentence out and he quickly changed the subject. I wonder if he knows that his position is crazy.
 

southernhybrid

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I had a phone call with someone who was my best friend in elamentary and jr high school. We talk from time to time and did some camping about 20 years ago. He now lives in Arizona and believes some crazy shit.

He refuses to get vaccinated and doesn't wear masks inside public places unless it's required.

We try to avoid politics but we were talking about my imminent retirement and that while I'm not big in travel, my wife wants to go to Europe after the pandemic is under control.

He said the pandemic will never be under control because the Federal Government doesn't want to end the pandemic. I couldn't stand it. I told him that the pandemic will never go away so long as idiot republicans won't get vaccinated and won't wear masks in public indoor places.

It's amazing someone would think how he does. And he's an RN!
It's embarrassing that so many people in my profession have been vaccine deniers. I've mentioned my nurse friend who almost died from COVID, as well as losing the man that was to marry this past November, to COVID. Neither of them were vaccinated. They were both obese and have/had diabetes and hypertension and are over 70. I've tried to give her some emotional support and I sent her a few little gifts to help with grieving. I heard from her yesterday and she still suffers from long haul symptoms after more than 5 months. But, sadly, I'm pretty sure that she still hasn't been vaccinated. A number of nurses who work at our local hospital were picketing last year when they were told they were required to be vaccinated. It's crazy.

And the link I'm going to add isn't very optimistic.

https://apnews.com/article/coronavi...th-pandemics-dc99bc9f769dd6d7cb669e3d185c6261

Get ready to learn more Greek letters. Scientists warn that omicron’s whirlwind advance practically ensures it won’t be the last version of the coronavirus to worry the world.

Every infection provides a chance for the virus to mutate, and omicron has an edge over its predecessors: It spreads way faster despite emerging on a planet with a stronger patchwork of immunity from vaccines and prior illness.

That means more people in whom the virus can further evolve. Experts don’t know what the next variants will look like or how they might shape the pandemic, but they say there’s no guarantee the sequels of omicron will cause milder illness or that existing vaccines will work against them.

So, just think what it will be like if a highly contagious variant emerges that is more deadly than Omicron, but the current vaccines are even less effective than they have been for most of the previous variants. Actually, I don't really want to think about that, but it is a possibility. :eek:
 

lpetrich

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I think that it's because of right-wing culture warring, depicting their opponents as horrible autocratic monsters because of wanting people to wear lower-face masks and to get vaccinated.
 

crazyfingers

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Is it OK to mock and ridicule the anti-vaxers who die of Covid? There is an interview with Los Angeles Times columnist Michael Hiltzik who argues that there are 3 kinds of people who care not getting vaxed. 1: are those who are too young or have medical issues. 2: are those who have been sucked into the misinformation campaigns. 3: there are those who are opinion leaders, politicians and so forth who use their position of influence to argue not to get vaccinated. He says that members of the 3rd groups should be ridiculed when they die of Covid. I agree. But I also think that those who could have paid attention to reputable sources and but choose to follow the loonies can also be scorned for their idiotic decisions. They are choosing to put others at risk are are too fucking stupid or morally twisted to act responsibly.
 

Angry Floof

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Is it OK to mock and ridicule the anti-vaxers who die of Covid? There is an interview with Los Angeles Times columnist Michael Hiltzik who argues that there are 3 kinds of people who care not getting vaxed. 1: are those who are too young or have medical issues. 2: are those who have been sucked into the misinformation campaigns. 3: there are those who are opinion leaders, politicians and so forth who use their position of influence to argue not to get vaccinated. He says that members of the 3rd groups should be ridiculed when they die of Covid. I agree. But I also think that those who could have paid attention to reputable sources and but choose to follow the loonies can also be scorned for their idiotic decisions. They are choosing to put others at risk are are too fucking stupid or morally twisted to act responsibly.

I agree with that guy wholeheartedly. Ridiculing the mouthpieces with a platform, whether it's political office or widely heard podcast, serves to bring attention to the issue that it might not get if we're all going to be maudlin over every ironic death or worse, ignoring them.

And I do, as so many others here have done, make the distinction between everyday people who have been duped by said mouthpieces, who don't deserve to be ridiculed, and the mouthpieces themselves, who do. And even if you could argue that they don't deserve ridicule, doing so as I said keeps the issue in the headlines.
 

Angry Floof

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I think that it's because of right-wing culture warring, depicting their opponents as horrible autocratic monsters because of wanting people to wear lower-face masks and to get vaccinated.

That black and white Christian framework of judgement, punishment, good vs. evil, us vs. literally everyone else in the world, war, battle, soldier, etc., runs deep in the substrate of Western culture and therefore Western mentality and ethos, unfortunately.
 

TSwizzle

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Is it OK to mock and ridicule the anti-vaxers who die of Covid?
Absolutely. But that doesn’t go far enough. People should dance on their graves. Oooh, I know!! There should be protests outside the cemetery, people holding up signs that say something like, “God hates antivaxxers”.

Who’s with me ?!!
 

Patooka

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Is it OK to mock and ridicule the anti-vaxers who die of Covid?
Absolutely. But that doesn’t go far enough. People should dance on their graves. Oooh, I know!! There should be protests outside the cemetery, people holding up signs that say something like, “God hates antivaxxers”.

Who’s with me ?!!
I think the Herman Cain Awards does the job. But you do you.
 

lpetrich

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Subreddit r/HermanCainAward on Reddit: Awarded… posthumously.
Nominees have made public declaration of their anti-mask, anti-vax, or Covid-hoax views, followed by admission to hospital for Covid. The Award is granted upon the nominee's release from their Earthly shackles.

A recent post in that subreddit: LA Times columnist explains why mockery of Covid disinformation propagandists is necessary : HermanCainAward - also mentioning antivaxxer Kelly Ernby and LA Times columnist Michael Hiltzik.


sorryantivaxxer.com | A repository of stories of anti-vaxxers who died or came close to dying of COVID.
The purpose of this site is educational, except for a few exceptions, everyone listed on this site was/is an anti-vaxxer activist who helped spread COVID-19 misinformation on social media. Share to stop others from making the same mistake. GET VACCINATED!
 

lpetrich

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Welp, so it happened. ... -- Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez on Instagram
Welp, so it happened. Got COVID, probably omicron. As of today I am thankfully recovered and wrapping up quarantine, but COVID was no joke. For a while I’ve noted the term “mild” is misleading when the bar is hospitalization and death. Even “mild” cases can result in long COVID, which includes a range of conditions like cognitive impairment, POTS, & chronic fatigue. This isn’t to be a downer or induce fear, just a reminder that we need to be careful (N95s in crowded indoor spaces like stores) and if you do get it, it’s key to care for yourself and REST. The idea of forcing people to work just 5 days after symptoms start is sociopathic and 100% informed by a culture that accepts sacrificing human lives for profit margins as a fair trade. The good news is that we have an antidote: community.
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If you’ve noticed, much of the emphasis of media conversations on COVID are individualistic: wear a mask, get vaccinated to protect *yourself,* go back to work even w/ symptoms bc *you’re* “fine” (even if you’re not). And while some of these recommendations are good- like getting a vaccine + wearing masks where appropriate, the motivations for them shouldn’t just be selfish. It should also be bc we actually give a damn about other people - our disabled neighbors, our coworkers who haven’t said (and shouldn’t feel obligated to say) they’re immunocompromised, etc.
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It’s truly bizarre to me that giving a shit about other people is a polarizing political stance, but my dad used to say that life makes you repeat lessons until you learn them. And if there’s one lesson I think we as a country are repeating until we learn, it’s that community and collective good is our best shot through our greatest challenges - way more than discorded acts of “rugged individualism” and the bootstrap propaganda we’ve been spoon-fed since birth.
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Individualism is inadequate for planetary forces like climate change or global pandemics, no less societal ones like healthcare, economic inequity and racism. But WE, as a collective, can confront them. In a world of MEs, let’s build team WE. 💙
Anyways that’s enough for today, stay healthy and blessed and let’s keep building.
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Love & solidarity, aoc

Deco pic last because he’s the best 🐶
Long COVID: POTS = postural tachycardia syndrome
 

repoman

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So in Ontario


Is it OK to mock and ridicule the anti-vaxers who die of Covid? There is an interview with Los Angeles Times columnist Michael Hiltzik who argues that there are 3 kinds of people who care not getting vaxed. 1: are those who are too young or have medical issues. 2: are those who have been sucked into the misinformation campaigns. 3: there are those who are opinion leaders, politicians and so forth who use their position of influence to argue not to get vaccinated. He says that members of the 3rd groups should be ridiculed when they die of Covid. I agree. But I also think that those who could have paid attention to reputable sources and but choose to follow the loonies can also be scorned for their idiotic decisions. They are choosing to put others at risk are are too fucking stupid or morally twisted to act responsibly.

I agree with that guy wholeheartedly. Ridiculing the mouthpieces with a platform, whether it's political office or widely heard podcast, serves to bring attention to the issue that it might not get if we're all going to be maudlin over every ironic death or worse, ignoring them.

And I do, as so many others here have done, make the distinction between everyday people who have been duped by said mouthpieces, who don't deserve to be ridiculed, and the mouthpieces themselves, who do. And even if you could argue that they don't deserve ridicule, doing so as I said keeps the issue in the headlines.



Can you ridicule these people without making taking that sometimes justified invective and stop before you tarnish medicines that in the long term, like fluvoxamine, will work reasonably well?

I feel that we are lucky that not too many of the conspiracy peddlers went and got crazy about fluvoxamine or else self righteous hyper vaccine supporters would find ways to use that to keep it from being used.

Also monoclonal antibodies are not susceptible to political smearing, fortunately. There is a question as to the right ones for omicron, but in principle rabid anti-antivaxxers are not ridiculing their use.
 

T.G.G. Moogly

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Also monoclonal antibodies are not susceptible to political smearing, fortunately. There is a question as to the right ones for omicron, but in principle rabid anti-antivaxxers are not ridiculing their use.
Hospitalization and monoclonal antibody treatment is a lot more expensive than vaccination. Antivaxxers get to have their cake and eat it too because someone else is footing the bill. But go ahead and ask an antivaxxer that was hospitalized and did receive monoclonal antibodies why vaccine is bad but hospitalization and monoclonal antibodies are good. That's what I did. You just get a lot of handwaving because it's just political stupidity.
 

thebeave

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Made a Trader Joe's run today. Went in unmasked but everyone inside was masked so I masked up too. Some local stores have signs encouraging mask wearing but there was nothing in TJ's. Different cut of people shop at TJ's.
Yes, it IS a different cut of people who shop there. Its not a mystery why they are self masking, its more a mystery of why they aren't wearing a full on hazmat suit. It's been years since I stepped into a Trader Joe's but I used to get their flyers in my mailbox all the time (not so much anymore for some reason). Unless they changed their marketing and product line, they made a big deal about their products being organic, and with no artificial flavors, colors, preservatives, etc because presumably trace amounts of synthetic pesticides on produce is hazardous and any artificial additives are certainly going to be risky, but a natural additive is going to be safe. :rolleyes:

I think the most amusing of all is their anti-GMO attitude because "anything that's not "natural" that a bunch of scientists developed in a lab is not something I want in my body. There has not been sufficient testing and who knows what the long term effects are." And yet, the covid vaccines were genetically engineered by scientists in a lab, spent only a few months in testing and are directly injected into your bloodstream. I'd be curious to hear how people who have been historically anti-GMO have overcome the cognitive dissonance (or have they?) of receiving and advocating the genetically engineered covid vaccine. Are they now, hopefully, changing their negative stances on GMO foods?
 

Toni

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Is it OK to mock and ridicule the anti-vaxers who die of Covid? There is an interview with Los Angeles Times columnist Michael Hiltzik who argues that there are 3 kinds of people who care not getting vaxed. 1: are those who are too young or have medical issues. 2: are those who have been sucked into the misinformation campaigns. 3: there are those who are opinion leaders, politicians and so forth who use their position of influence to argue not to get vaccinated. He says that members of the 3rd groups should be ridiculed when they die of Covid. I agree. But I also think that those who could have paid attention to reputable sources and but choose to follow the loonies can also be scorned for their idiotic decisions. They are choosing to put others at risk are are too fucking stupid or morally twisted to act responsibly.

I agree with that guy wholeheartedly. Ridiculing the mouthpieces with a platform, whether it's political office or widely heard podcast, serves to bring attention to the issue that it might not get if we're all going to be maudlin over every ironic death or worse, ignoring them.

And I do, as so many others here have done, make the distinction between everyday people who have been duped by said mouthpieces, who don't deserve to be ridiculed, and the mouthpieces themselves, who do. And even if you could argue that they don't deserve ridicule, doing so as I said keeps the issue in the headlines.

Well, when someone you know, who was young and healthy, dies of COVID because they listened to the advice of a so-called expert--there's no feeling of ridicule that rises up in your chest. Just overwhelming grief and sorrow and some anger at the circumstances that set them up to believe someone they should not. Speaking from experience here.
 

Angry Floof

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Is it OK to mock and ridicule the anti-vaxers who die of Covid? There is an interview with Los Angeles Times columnist Michael Hiltzik who argues that there are 3 kinds of people who care not getting vaxed. 1: are those who are too young or have medical issues. 2: are those who have been sucked into the misinformation campaigns. 3: there are those who are opinion leaders, politicians and so forth who use their position of influence to argue not to get vaccinated. He says that members of the 3rd groups should be ridiculed when they die of Covid. I agree. But I also think that those who could have paid attention to reputable sources and but choose to follow the loonies can also be scorned for their idiotic decisions. They are choosing to put others at risk are are too fucking stupid or morally twisted to act responsibly.

I agree with that guy wholeheartedly. Ridiculing the mouthpieces with a platform, whether it's political office or widely heard podcast, serves to bring attention to the issue that it might not get if we're all going to be maudlin over every ironic death or worse, ignoring them.

And I do, as so many others here have done, make the distinction between everyday people who have been duped by said mouthpieces, who don't deserve to be ridiculed, and the mouthpieces themselves, who do. And even if you could argue that they don't deserve ridicule, doing so as I said keeps the issue in the headlines.

Well, when someone you know, who was young and healthy, dies of COVID because they listened to the advice of a so-called expert--there's no feeling of ridicule that rises up in your chest. Just overwhelming grief and sorrow and some anger at the circumstances that set them up to believe someone they should not. Speaking from experience here.

On a personal level, yes, that would be sad and maybe even devastating. But my personal experiences do not define our public discourse on misinformation or actual policy or for that matter anything else on a societal level where potentially millions of people might risk their lives and their families' lives because someone thought showing respect for political and social mouthpieces, who perpetuate and increase that risk, was the same thing as personal grief.

If someone in my family were to die of covid due to misinformation, I would not be the least bit bothered by the mouthpiece giving them that misinformation dying of covid and being ridiculed for it.
 

Elixir

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If someone in my family were to die of covid due to misinformation, I would not be the least bit bothered by the mouthpiece giving them that misinformation dying of covid and being ridiculed for it.

That's pretty much how I feel. Sorry for Toni and her experience, but I am flat out of fucks to give about the suffering of purveyors of disinformation when they are hoisted by their own petard.
 

Harry Bosch

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Made a Trader Joe's run today. Went in unmasked but everyone inside was masked so I masked up too. Some local stores have signs encouraging mask wearing but there was nothing in TJ's. Different cut of people shop at TJ's.
Yes, it IS a different cut of people who shop there. Its not a mystery why they are self masking, its more a mystery of why they aren't wearing a full on hazmat suit. It's been years since I stepped into a Trader Joe's but I used to get their flyers in my mailbox all the time (not so much anymore for some reason). Unless they changed their marketing and product line, they made a big deal about their products being organic, and with no artificial flavors, colors, preservatives, etc because presumably trace amounts of synthetic pesticides on produce is hazardous and any artificial additives are certainly going to be risky, but a natural additive is going to be safe. :rolleyes:

I think the most amusing of all is their anti-GMO attitude because "anything that's not "natural" that a bunch of scientists developed in a lab is not something I want in my body. There has not been sufficient testing and who knows what the long term effects are." And yet, the covid vaccines were genetically engineered by scientists in a lab, spent only a few months in testing and are directly injected into your bloodstream. I'd be curious to hear how people who have been historically anti-GMO have overcome the cognitive dissonance (or have they?) of receiving and advocating the genetically engineered covid vaccine. Are they now, hopefully, changing their negative stances on GMO foods?
Fair point regarding GMOs and most anti-GMO people are on the left. However, the anti vaccine movement really started on the left. It's just that it's taken over the right for some reason.

A little bit of a straw man regarding the haz mat suit though! Haz mat is needed. Covid is a viral disease. It's in our lungs. We all emit air particles as we talk and even breath. Wherever we go, our emitted cloud particles circle around us. The further out from someone you go, the fewer their particles that you are exposed to. A mask simply reduces the "particle cloud" that is around you. The stronger the quality of the mask, the smaller the particle cloud is around you. I work with an engineering firm that developed a better mask for the government. I watched their presentation using a special laser that would measure the particles emitting from an uncovered person; and then they measured the efficiency of various masks.
 
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