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Covid-19 miscellany

Metaphor

Sjajna Zvijezda
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People have a right to not be vaccinated but they do not have a right to wander about outside of their personal property endangering the lives of others, including those who cannot be vaccinated or for whom vaccination might not be sufficient protection, such as transplant patients.
I am not going through this again. You are not going to convince me that forcing medical procedures on unconsenting adults is a good and proper thing. It is not. It is evil.

Allowing plague rats to walk around killing people is evil, no matter how much you think we should tolerate it.
Dehumanising millions that you cannot force medical procedures on is evil, no matter how casually the tolerant left does it.
 

ZiprHead

Loony Running The Asylum
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People have a right to not be vaccinated but they do not have a right to wander about outside of their personal property endangering the lives of others, including those who cannot be vaccinated or for whom vaccination might not be sufficient protection, such as transplant patients.
I am not going through this again. You are not going to convince me that forcing medical procedures on unconsenting adults is a good and proper thing. It is not. It is evil.
What metric are you using to determine that?
What metric is anyone using when they decide it is right and proper to force medical procedures on unconsenting adult group A, solely for the benefit of group B?
That would be the metric that group A through their inaction is harming group B. What right does group B have to go around harming group A?
 

ZiprHead

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People have a right to not be vaccinated but they do not have a right to wander about outside of their personal property endangering the lives of others, including those who cannot be vaccinated or for whom vaccination might not be sufficient protection, such as transplant patients.
I am not going through this again. You are not going to convince me that forcing medical procedures on unconsenting adults is a good and proper thing. It is not. It is evil.

Allowing plague rats to walk around killing people is evil, no matter how much you think we should tolerate it.
Dehumanising millions that you cannot force medical procedures on is evil, no matter how casually the tolerant left does it.
You keep saying that yet you have yet to rationally explain why. Repetition does not make you more right through the repetition.
 

repoman

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Why isn't infection treated in a similar manner to vaccination?

Wouldn't infection be similar to having an injected and nasal vaccine at the same time?

Because, no matter how many times the Republicans pretend they're the same they're not. Infection confers good protection against that strain, but provides little protection against variants. That's why we've never had a coronavirus vaccine before--standard techniques produce a vaccine that quickly becomes ineffective. The spike-protein targeted vaccines confer much broader protection--not merely against the strain they are engineered for but against variants also.

Note that while the current vaccine doesn't provide much protection against Omicron infection it still confers well over 90% protection against getting seriously ill.

Note that I am using Eric Motherfucking Topol, the guy who made sure that the vaccine EUA happened after the election. One of the most respected medical guys who is not senile like the HIV discoverer.
They didn't have the data earlier.
Do you have evidence of this? That the current vaccines give broader protection than an infection.
Well do you?
 

Metaphor

Sjajna Zvijezda
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People have a right to not be vaccinated but they do not have a right to wander about outside of their personal property endangering the lives of others, including those who cannot be vaccinated or for whom vaccination might not be sufficient protection, such as transplant patients.
I am not going through this again. You are not going to convince me that forcing medical procedures on unconsenting adults is a good and proper thing. It is not. It is evil.
What metric are you using to determine that?
What metric is anyone using when they decide it is right and proper to force medical procedures on unconsenting adult group A, solely for the benefit of group B?
That would be the metric that group A through their inaction is harming group B. What right does group B have to go around harming group A?
"Through their inaction".

First, Group A (the unvaccinated) is not harming Group B (the voluntarily vaccinated). Some people in Group B want to use the State to force a medical procedure on the unconsenting adults in Group A in order to benefit the people in Group B. Forcing a medical procedure on an unconsenting adult for the benefit of others is such a violation of bodily autonomy it would require circumstances that I cannot articulate.
 

Metaphor

Sjajna Zvijezda
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Messages
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Slouching towards Bethlehem
People have a right to not be vaccinated but they do not have a right to wander about outside of their personal property endangering the lives of others, including those who cannot be vaccinated or for whom vaccination might not be sufficient protection, such as transplant patients.
I am not going through this again. You are not going to convince me that forcing medical procedures on unconsenting adults is a good and proper thing. It is not. It is evil.

Allowing plague rats to walk around killing people is evil, no matter how much you think we should tolerate it.
Dehumanising millions that you cannot force medical procedures on is evil, no matter how casually the tolerant left does it.
You keep saying that yet you have yet to rationally explain why. Repetition does not make you more right through the repetition.
So, it's okay to dehumanise people who refuse to have a medical procedure done on their bodies? That's the morally right thing to do?

I shouldn't be so bothered by the dehumanisation, or rather I should be used to it. I'm talking to people who think 40% of the American population (Republicans) are morally bankrupt and openly say so.
 

bilby

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Why are you listening to Newton, anyway? Einstein said he's wrong, gravity is variable.
These so called "scientists" can't even keep their story straight. Next they'll be telling us that Einstein was wrong too, and things sometimes actually fall upwards, or sideways.
 

ZiprHead

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People have a right to not be vaccinated but they do not have a right to wander about outside of their personal property endangering the lives of others, including those who cannot be vaccinated or for whom vaccination might not be sufficient protection, such as transplant patients.
I am not going through this again. You are not going to convince me that forcing medical procedures on unconsenting adults is a good and proper thing. It is not. It is evil.

Allowing plague rats to walk around killing people is evil, no matter how much you think we should tolerate it.
Dehumanising millions that you cannot force medical procedures on is evil, no matter how casually the tolerant left does it.
You keep saying that yet you have yet to rationally explain why. Repetition does not make you more right through the repetition.
So, it's okay to dehumanise people who refuse to have a medical procedure done on their bodies? That's the morally right thing to do?

I shouldn't be so bothered by the dehumanisation, or rather I should be used to it. I'm talking to people who think 40% of the American population (Republicans) are morally bankrupt and openly say so.
Where did I dehumanise anyone?
 

ZiprHead

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People have a right to not be vaccinated but they do not have a right to wander about outside of their personal property endangering the lives of others, including those who cannot be vaccinated or for whom vaccination might not be sufficient protection, such as transplant patients.
I am not going through this again. You are not going to convince me that forcing medical procedures on unconsenting adults is a good and proper thing. It is not. It is evil.
What metric are you using to determine that?
What metric is anyone using when they decide it is right and proper to force medical procedures on unconsenting adult group A, solely for the benefit of group B?
That would be the metric that group A through their inaction is harming group B. What right does group B have to go around harming group A?
"Through their inaction".

First, Group A (the unvaccinated) is not harming Group B (the voluntarily vaccinated).
Patently false.
Some people in Group B want to use the State to force a medical procedure on the unconsenting adults in Group A in order to benefit the people in Group B. Forcing a medical procedure on an unconsenting adult for the benefit of others is such a violation of bodily autonomy it would require circumstances that I cannot articulate.
It would also benefit the members of group A.
 

TomC

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What metric is anyone using when they decide it is right and proper to force medical procedures on unconsenting adult group A, solely for the benefit of group B?

Who is "group B" in this context?

There isn't any real group B. The legislation is for everyone's benefit. The mandates would apply to me as much as anyone else. The difference is only that I did the responsible thing last spring, voluntarily.
Tom
 

Metaphor

Sjajna Zvijezda
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People have a right to not be vaccinated but they do not have a right to wander about outside of their personal property endangering the lives of others, including those who cannot be vaccinated or for whom vaccination might not be sufficient protection, such as transplant patients.
I am not going through this again. You are not going to convince me that forcing medical procedures on unconsenting adults is a good and proper thing. It is not. It is evil.

Allowing plague rats to walk around killing people is evil, no matter how much you think we should tolerate it.
Dehumanising millions that you cannot force medical procedures on is evil, no matter how casually the tolerant left does it.
You keep saying that yet you have yet to rationally explain why. Repetition does not make you more right through the repetition.
So, it's okay to dehumanise people who refuse to have a medical procedure done on their bodies? That's the morally right thing to do?

I shouldn't be so bothered by the dehumanisation, or rather I should be used to it. I'm talking to people who think 40% of the American population (Republicans) are morally bankrupt and openly say so.
Where did I dehumanise anyone?
Maybe not you specifically--but there are a number of posters who have called the unvaccinated 'plague rats'. Calling somebody a rat is dehumanising.
 

Swammerdami

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pseudo-deism
Not wearing a helmet should be legal since the only likely victim is one's-self; driving while drunk OTOH could easily lead to the death of another person.

Helmet laws are because society ends up caring for the brain damaged results.

As an adamant centrist, I am not going to offer an opinion on whether Loren or Swammi-out-of-context has the proper political stance here.

However, I have enough trouble expressing myself clearly without people taking my words out of context.

Toni and Mr. Moogly asked about libertarian thought. I responded. Serious question: When my remark is viewed in context does it appear I am personally opposed to helmet laws? Or that I am trying to explain what "many (libertarians)" believe?

Even when I agree something is a good idea, I don't approve of mandating it. Just as an example, I wear a helmet when I ride my motorcycle, yet I oppose helmet laws.

Saying something should be mandated is a whole second step above and beyond saying it is a good idea. Each of those two arguments is a separate argument.
I'm interested in how you decide when to mandate.
understand that. But I don’t understand your argument for NOT mandating COVID vaccines. Can you please share it?
Yes. How does JH come to the conclusion that vaccination for covid is good but vaccination for everybody is bad. Helmet laws are good but mandatory helmet laws are bad.

Vaccinations are good for you and me but bad for everybody. Helmet laws are good for you and me but bad for everybody.

What's the logic I'm missing?

I am not authorized to speak for Jason, but many agree that harming one's-self, albeit stupid, should be legal, while stupidly harming others may be regulated. Drinking bleach hurts only yourself and is a personal choice. Feeding bleach to others is illegal.

Not wearing a helmet should be legal since the only likely victim is one's-self; driving while drunk OTOH could easily lead to the death of another person.
Obviously I coukld have — and in hindsight should have — prefaced the final sentence with "In that view." Sorry: I do not devote as much editing scrutiny to Infidel posts as I formerly devoted to journal submissions. (I could also have solved this "problem," I think, by simply omitting the paragraph break between the comments about bleach and helmets.)
 

Jarhyn

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Calling somebody a rat is dehumanising.
Treating other human beings as if their health and life matters less than you spending 30 goddamn minutes with a bit of cloth on your face here and there and having a sniffle for a day once every few months or years is dehumanizing them.

The reality is that many people are advocating this kind of selfishness for the sick pleasure of watching chaos happen and watching people die, and the remainder are the pawns of such.
 

Metaphor

Sjajna Zvijezda
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What metric is anyone using when they decide it is right and proper to force medical procedures on unconsenting adult group A, solely for the benefit of group B?

Who is "group B" in this context?

There isn't any real group B. The legislation is for everyone's benefit. The mandates would apply to me as much as anyone else. The difference is only that I did the responsible thing last spring, voluntarily.
Tom
Group B is everyone who wants to force vaccination on Group A. People in group A don't want the vaccine, so forcing it on them is not a benefit to them. You are forcing it on them for your benefit, not theirs.
 

ZiprHead

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People have a right to not be vaccinated but they do not have a right to wander about outside of their personal property endangering the lives of others, including those who cannot be vaccinated or for whom vaccination might not be sufficient protection, such as transplant patients.
I am not going through this again. You are not going to convince me that forcing medical procedures on unconsenting adults is a good and proper thing. It is not. It is evil.

Allowing plague rats to walk around killing people is evil, no matter how much you think we should tolerate it.
Dehumanising millions that you cannot force medical procedures on is evil, no matter how casually the tolerant left does it.
You keep saying that yet you have yet to rationally explain why. Repetition does not make you more right through the repetition.
So, it's okay to dehumanise people who refuse to have a medical procedure done on their bodies? That's the morally right thing to do?

I shouldn't be so bothered by the dehumanisation, or rather I should be used to it. I'm talking to people who think 40% of the American population (Republicans) are morally bankrupt and openly say so.
Where did I dehumanise anyone?
Maybe not you specifically--but there are a number of posters who have called the unvaccinated 'plague rats'. Calling somebody a rat is dehumanising.
Humans can be plague rats.
 

TomC

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Group B is everyone who wants to force vaccination on Group A.
But it isn't solely for their benefit.

Reaching herd immunity will hugely benefit everyone. Ease up on the health care system and staff. Improve the economy. Open up social events, both public and private. Etc Etc

There is no group B. There's just "us".
Tom
 

Jason Harvestdancer

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People have a right to not be vaccinated but they do not have a right to wander about outside of their personal property endangering the lives of others, including those who cannot be vaccinated or for whom vaccination might not be sufficient protection, such as transplant patients.
I am not going through this again. You are not going to convince me that forcing medical procedures on unconsenting adults is a good and proper thing. It is not. It is evil.

Allowing plague rats to walk around killing people is evil, no matter how much you think we should tolerate it.
Are you under the impression that Covid is in the same league with Bubonic Plague? Typhus? Polio? Small Pox? Spanish Flu?
 

Jarhyn

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The reality is that many people are advocating this kind of selfishness for the sick pleasure of watching chaos happen and watching people die, and the remainder are the pawns of such.
Your fantasias are not reality.
No, my observations directly of people who did exactly this sort of spreading of misinformation for the joys of watching people be touched and be harmed by the resulting chaos caused by this malignant imposed ignorance make that a reality.

Unless you want to call me a liar and say I hallucinated through my 20's.
 

Metaphor

Sjajna Zvijezda
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People have a right to not be vaccinated but they do not have a right to wander about outside of their personal property endangering the lives of others, including those who cannot be vaccinated or for whom vaccination might not be sufficient protection, such as transplant patients.
I am not going through this again. You are not going to convince me that forcing medical procedures on unconsenting adults is a good and proper thing. It is not. It is evil.

Allowing plague rats to walk around killing people is evil, no matter how much you think we should tolerate it.
Dehumanising millions that you cannot force medical procedures on is evil, no matter how casually the tolerant left does it.
You keep saying that yet you have yet to rationally explain why. Repetition does not make you more right through the repetition.
So, it's okay to dehumanise people who refuse to have a medical procedure done on their bodies? That's the morally right thing to do?

I shouldn't be so bothered by the dehumanisation, or rather I should be used to it. I'm talking to people who think 40% of the American population (Republicans) are morally bankrupt and openly say so.
Where did I dehumanise anyone?
Maybe not you specifically--but there are a number of posters who have called the unvaccinated 'plague rats'. Calling somebody a rat is dehumanising.
Humans can be plague rats.
Calling humans 'plague rats' is dehumanising. It is a textbook example of it.
 

Jarhyn

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No, my observations directly of people who did exactly this sort of spreading of misinformation for the joys of watching people be touched and be harmed by the resulting chaos caused by this malignant imposed ignorance make that a reality.
You hang around some sick people.
Hung.

Re:
through my 20's

So I can absolutely say I know of the existence of some sick people, that they are out there, they like finding places like this, and they like spewing misinformation there as much as they can without getting banned.
 

Toni

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No, my observations directly of people who did exactly this sort of spreading of misinformation for the joys of watching people be touched and be harmed by the resulting chaos caused by this malignant imposed ignorance make that a reality.
You hang around some sick people.
I think that Jarhyn has a point, although I never thought if it quite that way. Example that leaps to mind: some prominent members of the GOP and some well known FoX commentators are vaccinated themselves and cheer on all of those who are refusing to be vaccinated. As far as I can see, for shits and giggles. Oh, and power and bucks.
 

Metaphor

Sjajna Zvijezda
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No, my observations directly of people who did exactly this sort of spreading of misinformation for the joys of watching people be touched and be harmed by the resulting chaos caused by this malignant imposed ignorance make that a reality.
You hang around some sick people.
I think that Jarhyn has a point, although I never thought if it quite that way. Example that leaps to mind: some prominent members of the GOP and some well known FoX commentators are vaccinated themselves and cheer on all of those who are refusing to be vaccinated. As far as I can see, for shits and giggles. Oh, and power and bucks.
That some such people may exist does not mean the unvaccinated ("plague rats", in your dehumanising language) want to inflict suffering on the world. In fact, you make it sound like the exact opposite - that the 'inflict suffering for shits and giggles' crowd is a subgroup of the vaccinated.
 

Swammerdami

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People in group A don't want the vaccine, so forcing it on them is not a benefit to them. You are forcing it on them for your benefit, not theirs.
A young child may not want to eat his medicine but nevertheless benefits when his mother forces him to do so.

Are you under the impression that Covid is in the same league with Bubonic Plague? Typhus? Polio? Small Pox? Spanish Flu?

The word "Democrat" has three silent k's.
COVID-19 Death Toll Surpasses 1918 Spanish Flu in America. This despite that ...
biospace.com said:
at the time of the Spanish flu, health care was significantly less advanced. There were no antibiotics, no antivirals, and no vaccines against the Spanish flu. One reason the Spanish flu was so lethal was there were no antibiotics to treat secondary bacterial infections, so control efforts around the globe were limited to non-pharmaceutical responses like isolation, quarantine, disinfectants and limiting public gatherings, although then as now, they were applied erratically. The first flu vaccine to be licensed in the U.S. came about in the 1940s.

“Big pockets of American society — and, worse, their leaders — have thrown this away,” medical historian Howard Markel of the University of Michigan, told NPR, of the reluctance for people to be vaccinated against COVID-19.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

I think the argument is that when you don't do it, a lot more people die and from a "force" perspective, the plague rats are forcing their diseases via breaths, coughs, and sneezes onto others
In a spirit of compromise: Perhaps unvaccinated people should be allowed to present in public. But not be allowed to operate their lungs or nasal system when others are present.
 

Jarhyn

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No, my observations directly of people who did exactly this sort of spreading of misinformation for the joys of watching people be touched and be harmed by the resulting chaos caused by this malignant imposed ignorance make that a reality.
You hang around some sick people.
I think that Jarhyn has a point, although I never thought if it quite that way. Example that leaps to mind: some prominent members of the GOP and some well known FoX commentators are vaccinated themselves and cheer on all of those who are refusing to be vaccinated. As far as I can see, for shits and giggles. Oh, and power and bucks.
The fact is that looking at this part of my past, and speaking openly about it, is like ripping off an old, nasty scab with some pus underneath.

It isn't pretty, and yeah, I definitely hung around some bad people. Not everyone grows up from that, and eventually, that kind of behavior can find and run along the cracks of society and widening them as they go.

There are reasons I have such a relationship as I do with not wanting to be a villain.

In many ways I understand and accept that there will be offensive things.

Fireworks will light up the sky, and make some veterans curl up and cry instead of looking up with joy.

People will, in virtual worlds, lampoon media in insensitive ways pertaining to the demands that certain tragedies and elements of society be allowed to be dealt with and coped with in humor.

Be shocking all you want and watch the shocked person cry all they want.

Sometimes there will be people who move in next to you and sell dildos instead of hats or whatever.

I accept these things in my world even if they are things I don't participate in anymore and try to actively discourage.

What I really won't ever accept is when people leverage asymmetries between each other unilaterally.

As it is, when I speak of "plague rats", I do not speak of the unvaccinated at large, I am speaking specifically of and at the people who are seeking to watch the world burn for their sick amusement.
 

TSwizzle

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The logic appears to be that if people who don’t own or ride motorcycles are forced to wear helmets it will stop the pandemic.
 

Toni

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No, my observations directly of people who did exactly this sort of spreading of misinformation for the joys of watching people be touched and be harmed by the resulting chaos caused by this malignant imposed ignorance make that a reality.
You hang around some sick people.
I think that Jarhyn has a point, although I never thought if it quite that way. Example that leaps to mind: some prominent members of the GOP and some well known FoX commentators are vaccinated themselves and cheer on all of those who are refusing to be vaccinated. As far as I can see, for shits and giggles. Oh, and power and bucks.
That some such people may exist does not mean the unvaccinated ("plague rats", in your dehumanising language) want to inflict suffering on the world. In fact, you make it sound like the exact opposite - that the 'inflict suffering for shits and giggles' crowd is a subgroup of the vaccinated.
I assumed that everyone realized that they (the mostly vaccinated who encourage others to not be vaccinated) are hypocrites.

Sorry to have left that out if it caused any misunderstanding.

Many of those who are refusing to be vaccinated are deluded. It’s unfortunate that they have been so seriously misled by those who will not bear any ( or muc) risk of disease themselves. I truly feel very bad for them. I may have mentioned that people I know have died from COVID because they were misled and their deepest fears were played upon by those who knew better and chose to be vaccinated themselves.

That doesn’t mean that we need to allow them to prolong the pandemic because they are ignorant and afraid.
 

Metaphor

Sjajna Zvijezda
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No, my observations directly of people who did exactly this sort of spreading of misinformation for the joys of watching people be touched and be harmed by the resulting chaos caused by this malignant imposed ignorance make that a reality.
You hang around some sick people.
I think that Jarhyn has a point, although I never thought if it quite that way. Example that leaps to mind: some prominent members of the GOP and some well known FoX commentators are vaccinated themselves and cheer on all of those who are refusing to be vaccinated. As far as I can see, for shits and giggles. Oh, and power and bucks.
That some such people may exist does not mean the unvaccinated ("plague rats", in your dehumanising language) want to inflict suffering on the world. In fact, you make it sound like the exact opposite - that the 'inflict suffering for shits and giggles' crowd is a subgroup of the vaccinated.
I assumed that everyone realized that they (the mostly vaccinated who encourage others to not be vaccinated) are hypocrites.

Sorry to have left that out if it caused any misunderstanding.

Many of those who are refusing to be vaccinated are deluded. It’s unfortunate that they have been so seriously misled by those who will not bear any ( or muc) risk of disease themselves.
What a ridiculously ignorant statement. For it to be true, it would mean vaccination has no effect whatsoever. Neither you nor I believe that.
 

bilby

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People have a right to not be vaccinated but they do not have a right to wander about outside of their personal property endangering the lives of others, including those who cannot be vaccinated or for whom vaccination might not be sufficient protection, such as transplant patients.
I am not going through this again. You are not going to convince me that forcing medical procedures on unconsenting adults is a good and proper thing. It is not. It is evil.

Allowing plague rats to walk around killing people is evil, no matter how much you think we should tolerate it.
Are you under the impression that Covid is in the same league with Bubonic Plague? Typhus? Polio? Small Pox? Spanish Flu?
Those diseases (apart from Spanish Flu) killed people for centuries, but have been almost completely eradicated in the last six decades or so by vaccines and antibiotics.

The exception, Spanish Flu (which originated in the USA), killed about ten times as many people worldwide as Covid has killed so far; given that Covid isn't over yet by a long chalk, and that medical care is far more effective today than it was a century ago, it's certainly highly reasonable to place Covid-19 in the same league as Spanish Flu.

Had Spanish Flu been treated using today's medical care, with our access to antibiotics for secondary infection, mechanical ventilators, ICU facilities, and a century more experience of managing respiratory diseases, it would very much be in the same ballpark of mortality as Covid-19.

That you are incredulous that it might be thought similarly dangerous, when it evidently is, suggests that you are deeply ignorant of at least one of these pandemics.
 

Jarhyn

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What a ridiculously ignorant statement. For it to be true, it would mean vaccination has no effect whatsoever. Neither you nor I believe that.
Which of the following statements, please, must imply such a ridiculous corollary?
(A) they (the mostly vaccinated who encourage others to not be vaccinated) are hypocrites.

(B) Many of those who are refusing to be vaccinated are deluded.

(C) they have been so seriously misled...

(D) they have been so... by those who will not bear any ( or muc) risk of disease themselves.

Please show your work.
 

Metaphor

Sjajna Zvijezda
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What a ridiculously ignorant statement. For it to be true, it would mean vaccination has no effect whatsoever. Neither you nor I believe that.
Which of the following statements, please, must imply such a ridiculous corollary?
(A) they (the mostly vaccinated who encourage others to not be vaccinated) are hypocrites.

(B) Many of those who are refusing to be vaccinated are deluded.

(C) they have been so seriously misled...

(D) they have been so... by those who will not bear any ( or muc) risk of disease themselves.

Please show your work.

Unvaccinated people bear the greatest risk from being unvaccinated. If vaccinated people bore the greatest risk, it would mean vaccination had worse than no effect--it would have to have a negative effect.
 

Jarhyn

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What a ridiculously ignorant statement. For it to be true, it would mean vaccination has no effect whatsoever. Neither you nor I believe that.
Which of the following statements, please, must imply such a ridiculous corollary?
(A) they (the mostly vaccinated who encourage others to not be vaccinated) are hypocrites.

(B) Many of those who are refusing to be vaccinated are deluded.

(C) they have been so seriously misled...

(D) they have been so... by those who will not bear any ( or muc) risk of disease themselves.

Please show your work.

Unvaccinated people bear the greatest risk from being unvaccinated. If vaccinated people bore the greatest risk, it would mean vaccination had worse than no effect--it would have to have a negative effect.
So you believe those who say
"(the mostly vaccinated who encourage others to not be vaccinated) who will not bear any ( or muc) risk of disease themselves." Implies that... Those people will bear risk?

This statement is not facing the vaccinated population at large, only the unvaccinated and those who encourage them to be.
 

Metaphor

Sjajna Zvijezda
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What a ridiculously ignorant statement. For it to be true, it would mean vaccination has no effect whatsoever. Neither you nor I believe that.
Which of the following statements, please, must imply such a ridiculous corollary?
(A) they (the mostly vaccinated who encourage others to not be vaccinated) are hypocrites.

(B) Many of those who are refusing to be vaccinated are deluded.

(C) they have been so seriously misled...

(D) they have been so... by those who will not bear any ( or muc) risk of disease themselves.

Please show your work.

Unvaccinated people bear the greatest risk from being unvaccinated. If vaccinated people bore the greatest risk, it would mean vaccination had worse than no effect--it would have to have a negative effect.
So you believe those who say
"(the mostly vaccinated who encourage others to not be vaccinated) who will not bear any ( or muc) risk of disease themselves." Implies that... Those people will bear risk?

This statement is not facing the vaccinated population at large, only the unvaccinated and those who encourage them to be.
No. Toni specifically talked about vaccinated people talking unvaccinated people into staying unvaccinated.

Toni, and others on this board, call the unvaccinated "plague rats".

That Toni, and others, are so easy with their dehumanisation is their moral failing to deal with.
 

Swammerdami

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Had Spanish Flu been treated using today's medical care, with our access to antibiotics for secondary infection, mechanical ventilators, ICU facilities, and a century more experience of managing respiratory diseases, it would very much be in the same ballpark of mortality as Covid-19.

That you are incredulous that it might be thought similarly dangerous, when it evidently is, suggests that you are deeply ignorant of at least one of these pandemics.

Given the hugely better medical resources of today, I think Covid-19 is (a priori) WORSE than Spanish Flu, rather than "in same ballpark." Especially so because of "long Covid": many survivors suffer permanent damage (is this true of flu?). On the other hand, Covid-19 is most dangerous for the elderly whose lives are arguably less important.

Speaking of over-population ( :cool: ) we may expect more new-virus pandemics in future, propelled by high densities and high-speed transport. Hopefully their impacts will be reduced by medical advances and, yes, mitigations like mandatory masks and mandatory vaccinations.

It might be interesting to compare this pandemic with historic pandemics MUCH worse than the Spanish Flu. Plagues that decimated Europe in the mid-6th century and in the mid-14th century had VERY profound effects, some beneficial, on the development of civilization. Some right-wingers have advocated to let Covid-19 rip — no masks, no distancing, no vaccine — and let the death toll increase by many millions. That policy might not be quite as wrong-headed as it may seem, but those right-wingers ignore the tolls that a high preventable death rate would take on the living.
 

Jarhyn

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What a ridiculously ignorant statement. For it to be true, it would mean vaccination has no effect whatsoever. Neither you nor I believe that.
Which of the following statements, please, must imply such a ridiculous corollary?
(A) they (the mostly vaccinated who encourage others to not be vaccinated) are hypocrites.

(B) Many of those who are refusing to be vaccinated are deluded.

(C) they have been so seriously misled...

(D) they have been so... by those who will not bear any ( or muc) risk of disease themselves.

Please show your work.

Unvaccinated people bear the greatest risk from being unvaccinated. If vaccinated people bore the greatest risk, it would mean vaccination had worse than no effect--it would have to have a negative effect.
So you believe those who say
"(the mostly vaccinated who encourage others to not be vaccinated) who will not bear any ( or muc) risk of disease themselves." Implies that... Those people will bear risk?

This statement is not facing the vaccinated population at large, only the unvaccinated and those who encourage them to be.
No. Toni specifically talked about...
This is the post that we are discussing right now.
I assumed that everyone realized that they (the mostly vaccinated who encourage others to not be vaccinated) are hypocrites.

Sorry to have left that out if it caused any misunderstanding.

Many of those who are refusing to be vaccinated are deluded. It’s unfortunate that they have been so seriously misled by those who will not bear any ( or muc) risk of disease themselves. I truly feel very bad for them. I may have mentioned that people I know have died from COVID because they were misled and their deepest fears were played upon by those who knew better and chose to be vaccinated themselves.

That doesn’t mean that we need to allow them to prolong the pandemic because they are ignorant and afraid.
As it is clear Toni is discussing specifically
the mostly vaccinated who encourage others to not be vaccinated

And because you quoted where she said it:
(A) they (the mostly vaccinated who encourage others to not be vaccinated) are hypocrites.
I can fairly well say you are mischaracterizing her views.
 

blastula

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Aaron Rodgers blasts Biden;

while Biden was touring a tornado-ravaged part of Kentucky, he whispered to a woman in a Green Bay Packers cap and shirt, "Tell that quarterback he's gotta get the vaccine."
The interaction was captured on camera ... and when Rodgers was finally asked about it as part of a lengthy interview with ESPN this week -- he said he was pissed. Then, he took his own jabs at POTUS.
"When the president of the United States says, 'This is a pandemic of the unvaccinated,' it's because him and his constituents, which, I don't know how there are any if you watch any of his attempts at public speaking, but I guess he got 81 million votes," Rodgers said. “But when you say stuff like that, and then you have the CDC, which, how do you even trust them, but then they come out and talk about 75% of the COVID deaths have at least four comorbidities." Rodgers continued, "And you still have this fake White House set saying that this is the pandemic of the unvaccinated, that's not helping the conversation."

TMZ

Ouch.

Poor QAaron Rodgers won't get to meet the tyrant Biden at the fake White House now. :(
 

Toni

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No, my observations directly of people who did exactly this sort of spreading of misinformation for the joys of watching people be touched and be harmed by the resulting chaos caused by this malignant imposed ignorance make that a reality.
You hang around some sick people.
I think that Jarhyn has a point, although I never thought if it quite that way. Example that leaps to mind: some prominent members of the GOP and some well known FoX commentators are vaccinated themselves and cheer on all of those who are refusing to be vaccinated. As far as I can see, for shits and giggles. Oh, and power and bucks.
That some such people may exist does not mean the unvaccinated ("plague rats", in your dehumanising language) want to inflict suffering on the world. In fact, you make it sound like the exact opposite - that the 'inflict suffering for shits and giggles' crowd is a subgroup of the vaccinated.
I assumed that everyone realized that they (the mostly vaccinated who encourage others to not be vaccinated) are hypocrites.

Sorry to have left that out if it caused any misunderstanding.

Many of those who are refusing to be vaccinated are deluded. It’s unfortunate that they have been so seriously misled by those who will not bear any ( or muc) risk of disease themselves.
What a ridiculously ignorant statement. For it to be true, it would mean vaccination has no effect whatsoever. Neither you nor I believe that.
It seems obvious that you didn't understand what I wrote but to be honest, I cannot understand and untangle it for you.
 

crazyfingers

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What metric are you using to determine that?

Isn't it ... interesting... that those who would scream about taking personal responsibility when it comes to pregnancy or other issue like that, are pretty much the same people who refuse to take personal responsibility when it comes to protecting others from a deadly disease?
 

crazyfingers

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What metric is anyone using when they decide it is right and proper to force medical procedures on unconsenting adult group A, solely for the benefit of group B?

In any case, I do not think it is any longer productive to argue public policy with people who are so callous that they dehumanise their targeted group as 'plague rats'.

Is it OK to force you to not pull the trigger of a gun when it's pointed at "Group B"?

By your thinking it's perfectly OK to knowingly take chances with other people's lives. What ever happened to personal responsibility?
 

Elixir

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mtephor said:
I do not think it is any longer productive to argue public policy with people who are so callous that they dehumanise their targeted group as 'plague rats

Right. “Sheeple” are such better targets.
How I do love right wing extremist hypocrisy! ❤️❤️❤️
 

Swammerdami

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Aaron Rodgers blasts Biden;
while Biden was touring a tornado-ravaged part of Kentucky, he whispered to a woman in a Green Bay Packers cap and shirt, "Tell that quarterback he's gotta get the vaccine."
...
Ouch.
Poor QAaron Rodgers won't get to meet the tyrant Biden at the fake White House now. :(
Do I have this right? Aaron Rodgers, Quarterback for the Green Bay Epidemiologists disagrees with Dr. Fauci; and an Infidel advances that as evidence of ... something? Sure, Dr. Rodgers' doctorates may be in relevant disciplines, but is his opinion really worth more than Fauci's?

What? Say that again? You mean Aaron Rodgers not only doesn't have a doctorate, he dropped out of college before getting his Bachelor's degree in "American Studies"?? Rodgers got his info from QAnon or InfoWars. Maybe the Green Bay Epidemiologists should find themselves a new Quarterback.

But in "egalitarian" post-rational America, Rodgers' opinion is valued as much as, or more than, Biden's or Fauci's! Wow.
 

TSwizzle

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More demonstrations in Brussels;

Belgian police resorted to firing powerful water cannons and using tear gas to control mass demonstrations in Brussels against the EU nation's Covid-19 restrictions earlier today. Today's protest saw up to 50,000 people demonstrating in the capital of the European Union, including many who had travelled from France, Germany and other European countries to take part and voice their anger.

Daily Mail

Good to see people starting to push back against this nonsense.
 

bilby

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More demonstrations in Brussels;

Belgian police resorted to firing powerful water cannons and using tear gas to control mass demonstrations in Brussels against the EU nation's Covid-19 restrictions earlier today. Today's protest saw up to 50,000 people demonstrating in the capital of the European Union, including many who had travelled from France, Germany and other European countries to take part and voice their anger.

Daily Mail

Good to see people starting to push back against this nonsense.
Thanks.

I have been pushing back against the nonsense of the Daily Mail for ages, but it's nice to be recognised.
 

TSwizzle

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Protests in DC;

Thousands gathered in Washington D.C. - a city that mandates vaccines - to protest vaccine mandates, with protesters blaring ballads by Meat Loaf, a musician who is feared to have succumbed to COVID-19 complications at 74 after vocal hesitation about the jab.

Daily Mail

Apparently DC has an outdoor mask mandate. How ridiculous.
 

Metaphor

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It appears you believe that I oppose drinking water standards. Why do you think that?
Because you said you oppose mandates.
So, you cannot discern the difference between a specific vaccine mandate that forces adults to undergo a medical procedure they oppose, and water drinking standards in a community that doesn't force anyone to do anything, except pay rates?

You think there is no difference there that is relevant?
 
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