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Debt Ceiling Calamity VI - This Time It's Personal (Thanks Georgia, Biden's not agenda)

Jimmy Higgins

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Countries across the globe have all sorts of traditions. Fun ones, somber ones, and in America's case self-inflicted gunshot wound ones. The US has this thing called a debt ceiling, which means the US Government can not borrow any more than that amount of money. Most countries don't have this sort of thing because it is stupid. Sure, it sounds good in theory, but when the US Government needed to borrow shit tons of cash in the Great Recession and the Pandemic Economic Freeze... having limits isn't a great idea as moments occur when something is needed immediately, not once a deal can be struck.

Debt Ceiling Calamities typically come in two flavors.

1) GOP cuts taxes growing the deficit, the Dems are like "Dude what?" You made the deficit go higher.
2) Democrats in charge.

Generally the parties make it work after lots of, at times, ridiculous political posturing. And the GOP is making with that at the moment.

And talk about thanks to Georgia for the two very tight victories in the Senate. Imagine Biden and his infrastructure bill... a $100 billion over 10 years plan agreed to because McConnell is in charge. Forget about a deal on the Debt Ceiling... or SCOTUS nominations. Under Trump, $7 trillion was added to the debt by the Government (I don't recall complaints from the GOP). The GOP rarely wins in a Government shutdown. The Democrat solution is to ignore it for a year. FUCK! Well mainly because getting rid of it would never happen with the GOP, because the GOP has almost completely run out of leverage.

So we are left with the Dems still needing GOP votes... and seeing what might be the final reason to not keep the filibuster. I swear, the GOP is just daring the Dems to do it so they can pass anti-abortion legislation the next time in charge.
 

Swammerdami

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The Party of Humans needs to play hardball like the Party of Liars does. The Senate Parliamentarian is causing trouble? Replace her! If the GOP felt it necessary there's no doubt they'd appoint Don Junior, or whoever, to the Parliamentarian spot. Appoint someone who will play ball for the Human team.

To implement what's required, might the Ds need to make some "offers that cannot be refused"? Do it! This is no time to be squeamish: the stakes are too high.
 

Derec

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The Party of Humans needs to play hardball like the Party of Liars does. The Senate Parliamentarian is causing trouble? Replace her!
And then Biden administration is no better than Trump's. The Parliamentarian is right. Green cards for 8 million illegals are not a "budget issue" just like child tax credit is not infrastructure.

If the GOP felt it necessary there's no doubt they'd appoint Don Junior, or whoever, to the Parliamentarian spot. Appoint someone who will play ball for the Human team.
Human team? So everybody who is opposed to the current Dem agenda (and the Dem party has slid very far leftward since 2016!) is subhuman or something?

To implement what's required, might the Ds need to make some "offers that cannot be refused"? Do it! This is no time to be squeamish: the stakes are too high.
Time to break out mob tactics then.
 

Swammerdami

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And then Biden administration is no better than Trump's. The Parliamentarian is right. Green cards for 8 million illegals are not a "budget issue" just like child tax credit is not infrastructure.

:confused: The thread is about the debt ceiling, not "infrastructure" or "illegals" or whatever you're still babbling about. We need 51 votes to abolish the insane debt ceiling forever. If the Senate Parliamentarian stands in the way, replace her. (If you don't understand why the debt ceiling is insane, start a new thread.)


Human team? So everybody who is opposed to the current Dem agenda (and the Dem party has slid very far leftward since 2016!) is subhuman or something?

Wrong again. There are plenty of centrists and conservatives who are respectable members of the human race. It's not Conservatism which has turned the GOP into a despicable terrorist organization, but Stupidism. Clarification: It's not all the leaders and elected officials of the GOP who are stupid — at least half of them have 3-digit IQs. Rather "Stupidism" refers to the GOP's encouragement of and pandering to American stupidity. It's those who support Trump and the GOP more generally — whether at the ballot box, message boards, or in insurrection — who have been turned stupid deliberately by lies from Hannity, Jones, Trump, etc.

Are some supporters of the Democratic Party also stupid? You betcha! But the Democratic agenda is not based on hatred and greed and deliberate lying. Democratic agenda, whether wise or not, are intended to improve the lives of Americans and humans more generally. GOP agenda, on the other hand, offer nothing positive but are solely directed at increasing the wealth of the already-rich, and degrading the lives of ordinary Americans in hopes they will vote against Democratic incumbents in 2022.

As for the leftward shift since 2016, you have only Donald Trump and others from the Party of Lies, Greed and Hatred to thank (or blame) for that. Human Americans have learned that political compromise is now meaningless and that "Republican" proposals are always cynical self-serving lies. With the GOP openly admitting it will use every trick, legal or not, to steal future elections, human Americans are naturally eager to achieve goals during the 117th Congress, since this is possibly the last Congress to be elected by a reasonably fair process.
 

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Opinion | Two Santa Clauses or How The Republican Party Has Conned America for Thirty Years | Thom Hartmann from 2009

Lower taxes and plenty of spending, running up big deficits, while getting all righteous about the evils of deficit spending when it's the Democrats that do it.


Democrats face GOP blockage on raising debt ceiling as time is running out - CNNPolitics
Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen had a clear and dire message for Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell: The US economy, still emerging from a pandemic-driven economic collapse, can't afford a self-inflicted catastrophe.

The message about the repercussions of the first US default in history wasn't framed through a political lens, or even an attempt at persuasion, according to multiple people familiar with the arranged August 14 call. It was a concise road map of the potential devastation that loomed in the coming weeks without congressional action.

McConnell's response was similarly to the point, and didn't diverge from his repeated public statements on the looming need for a debt ceiling increase.

Democrats were on their own.

...
The private call served to underscore a public reality: Washington is careening towards a debt ceiling debacle that would be catastrophic for Wall Street and Main Street alike. At stake is far more than political positioning or gamesmanship. Federal payment to millions, from government workers to Social Security and Medicaid recipients, would be halted. Military salaries would be frozen. A self-inflicted credit crisis would likely take hold, with increased borrowing costs rippling throughout sectors.
Going through what the US has gone through in previous shutdowns, with the additional possibility of defaulting on the national debt.
 

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 Government shutdowns in the United States
What stays open
  • "Emergency personnel" continue to be employed, including the active duty (Title 10) military, federal law enforcement agents, doctors and nurses working in federal hospitals, and air traffic controllers.[20]
  • Members of Congress continue to be paid, because their pay cannot be altered except by direct law.[21]
  • Mail delivery is not affected as it is self-funded and the funds are not appropriated by Congress.[22]
  • Sometimes the Washington, D.C. municipal government remains open. For example, during the 2013 shutdown, the city remained open because mayor Vincent C. Gray declared the entire municipal government to be essential.[23]
What shuts down
  • For the Department of Defense, at least half of the civilian workforce, and the full-time, dual-status military technicians in the US National Guard and traditional Guardsmen (those on Title 32 status) are furloughed and not paid while the shutdown is in effect.[24][25]
  • Programs that are funded by laws other than annual appropriations acts (like Social Security) may also be affected by a funding gap, if program execution relies on activities that receive annually appropriated funding.[10]
  • Sometimes parts of the Washington, D.C. municipal government shut down, closing schools and suspending utilities such as garbage collection.[26]
 List of United States federal funding gaps
  1. 1976 Sep 30 - Oct 11 (12)
  2. 1977 Sep 30 - Oct 13 (14)
  3. 1977 Oct 31 - Nov 9 (10)
  4. 1977 Nov 30 - Dec 9 (10)
  5. 1978 Sep 30 - Oct 18 (19)
  6. 1979 Sep 30 - Oct 12 (13)
  7. 1980 May 1 (1) -- FTC, 1.6 K emps, $700 K
  8. 1981 Nov 20 - 23 (4) -- all?, 241 K emps, $80 - 90 M
  9. 1982 Sep 30 - Oct 2 (3)
  10. 1982 Dec 17 - 21 (5)
  11. 1983 Nov 10 - 14 (5)
  12. 1984 Sep 30 - Oct 3 (4)
  13. 1984 Oct 3 - 5 (3) -- all?, 500K emps, $65 M
  14. 1986 Oct 16 - 18 (3) -- all, 500K emps, $62.2 M
  15. 1987 Dec 18 - 20 (3)
  16. 1990 Oct 5 - 9 (5) -- all, 2.8 K emps, $2.57 M
  17. 1995 Nov 13 - 19 (7) -- some, 800 K emps, (included in next entry)
  18. 1995 Dec 15 - 1996 Jan 6 (21) -- some, 284 K emps, $400 M
  19. 2013 Oct 1 - 17 (17) -- all, 800 K emps, $2.1 B
  20. 2018 Jan 20 - 22 (3) -- all, 693 K emps
  21. 2018 Feb 9 (1)
  22. 2018 Dec 22 - 2019 Jan 25 (35) -- some, 380 K emps, $5 B
  23. 2020 Oct 1 (1)
  24. 2020 Dec 22 (1)
date(s), number of days -- agencies, employees furloughed, cost
 

lpetrich

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Back to that CNN article.
After weeks of calling explicitly for a "bipartisan" vote to remove the default threat, Democratic leaders announced Monday they would tie a debt limit suspension to a must-pass government funding bill slated for House vote this week.

Democrats don't necessarily think McConnell is bluffing, but they're not willing to let him dictate the terms of what happens next, according to officials and congressional aides.
Just as well. If the Republicans won't cooperate, then the Democrats should leave them behind.

I'd also like to see the Democrats make most Federal agencies run on autopilot if they don't get new budgets. They would have enough money for day-to-day operations, even if not for anything new that Congress might want to decide on.
"The US has always paid its bills on time, but the overwhelming consensus among economists and Treasury officials of both parties is that failing to raise the debt limit would produce widespread economic catastrophe," Yellen wrote this weekend in the Wall Street Journal.

There is a now a clear risk that Congress fails to raise the federal borrowing limit before the US Treasury runs out of cash and accounting maneuvers, according to lawmakers and administration officials involved in the process.

It's a game that has been played several times over the course of the last decade, rattling markets and public confidence and at one point even leading to a downgrade of the US sovereign credit rating by one credit rating firm in 2011. Further downgrades would raise the cost of borrowing -- making it, ironically, that much more expensive to pay down America's mountain of debt.

Yet lawmakers have always found a way to address the issue before an actual technical default on its legal obligations, an unthinkable scenario for the world's only superpower and largest economy.
Seems like a game of chicken.
 

Swammerdami

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Maybe it's time to dust off the platinum coin solution to this Republican extortion.

Remember that? When the GOP wanted to shut down the entire Obama government, there were proposals that Treasury mint a trillion-dollar platinum coin. It would deposit the coin at the Fed and take in return, perhaps 200,000 cases of Benjamins, $5 million per case.

No Congressional consent required. No debt increase: the coin is ordinary fiat money with seignorage fee. Supposedly platinum is the choice because gold and silver coins are already regulated. Krugman, among other, supported the idea.

The Obama Administration ultimately rejected the idea: they wanted to stick to "norms." But sticking to norms with the present GOP has no meaning except to play sucker or in a skit of The Onion comedy.
 

ZiprHead

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The GOP used a Two Santa Clauses tactic to con America for nearly 40 years
This scam has been killing wages and enriching billionaires for decades


Here’s how it works, laid it out in simple summary:

First, when Republicans control the federal government, and particularly the White House, spend money like a drunken sailor and run up the US debt as far and as fast as possible. This produces three results – it stimulates the economy thus making people think that the GOP can produce a good economy, it raises the debt dramatically, and it makes people think that Republicans are the “tax-cut Santa Claus.”

Second, when a Democrat is in the White House, scream about the national debt as loudly and frantically as possible, freaking out about how “our children will have to pay for it!” and “we have to cut spending to solve the crisis!” This will force the Democrats in power to cut their own social safety net programs, thus shooting their welfare-of-the-American-people Santa Claus.

Think back to Ronald Reagan, who more than tripled the US debt from a mere $800 billion to $2.6 trillion in his 8 years. That spending produced a massive stimulus to the economy, and the biggest non-wartime increase in the debt in history. Nary a peep from Republicans about that 218% increase in our debt; they were just fine with it.

And then along came Bill Clinton. The screams and squeals from the GOP about the “unsustainable debt” of nearly $3 trillion were loud, constant, and echoed incessantly by media from CBS to NPR. Newt Gingrich rode the wave of “unsustainable debt” hysteria into power, as the GOP took control of the House for the first time lasting more than a term since 1930, even though the increase in our national debt under Clinton was only about 37%.

---

Now we’re back to a Republican president, and once again deficits be damned. Between their tax cut and the nearly-trillion dollar spending increase passed on February 8th, in the first year-and-a-month of Trump’s administration they’ve spent more stimulating the economy (and driving up debt by more than $2 trillion, when you include interest) than the entire Obama presidency.

---

Republican strategist Jude Wanniski first proposed his Two Santa Clauses strategy in 1974, when Richard Nixon resigned in disgrace and the future of the Republican Party was so dim that books and articles were widely suggesting the GOP was about to go the way of the Whigs. There was genuine despair across the Party, particularly when Jerry Ford began stumbling as he climbed the steps to Air Force One and couldn’t even beat an unknown peanut farmer from rural Georgia for the presidency.

Wanniski was tired of the GOP failing to win elections. And, he reasoned, it was happening because the Democrats had been viewed since the New Deal as the Santa Claus party (taking care of people’s needs and the General Welfare), while the GOP, opposing everything from Social Security to Medicare to unemployment insurance, was widely seen as the party of Scrooge.
 

Harry Bosch

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Call the Republican's bluff. Let them shoulder most of the blame for any negative consequences.

The republicans are the minority party. It's very thin, but non the less true. I think that the public will blame the dems. We need to pass the budget. We have enough headwinds going against us, we need to pass the budget.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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Call the Republican's bluff. Let them shoulder most of the blame for any negative consequences.

The republicans are the minority party. It's very thin, but non the less true. I think that the public will blame the dems. We need to pass the budget. We have enough headwinds going against us, we need to pass the budget.
Certainly do need to do that. Don't we need 10 GOP votes though to raise (eliminate?) the debt-ceiling?
 

Elixir

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Call the Republican's bluff. Let them shoulder most of the blame for any negative consequences.

The republicans are the minority party. It's very thin, but non the less true. I think that the public will blame the dems. We need to pass the budget. We have enough headwinds going against us, we need to pass the budget.
Certainly do need to do that. Don't we need 10 GOP votes though to raise (eliminate?) the debt-ceiling?

The Reps will cave in the end, kicking and screaming about Democrats' irresponsibility and claiming to be victims of their tyrannical rule.
Because if they don't cave, there will be a lot of hurt for all, and Republicans will take the blame. This is all theater.
 

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Certainly do need to do that. Don't we need 10 GOP votes though to raise (eliminate?) the debt-ceiling?

The Reps will cave in the end, kicking and screaming about Democrats' irresponsibility and claiming to be victims of their tyrannical rule.
Because if they don't cave, there will be a lot of hurt for all, and Republicans will take the blame. This is all theater.

I don’t know. They continue to impress me with how far they are willing to go, how much damage they are willing to do.
If they are willing to brush aside an attack on the transfer of power, why not this now? Sure it was foolish when their boy was in office. But this time they can sit back and say, see, this is what you get when the Dems are in charge. I don’t know that McConnell was bluffing when he said the Dems would have to go it alone.
 

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[YOUTUBE]https://youtu.be/ycGglq7sSCY[/YOUTUBE]

Shame ZiprHead! :) That video is from 2017. Surely you understand that, just as pre-Copernican European thinkers thought the laws of motion differed between Heaven and Earth, so an Administration with an "(R)" affixed is by definition the Work of God Almighty, and by "(D)", authomatically that of the Devil Incarnate. At least in the thinking of Mitch McConnell, and others of that ilk.

Apology for the super-large font. I apologize to Leader McConnell for ALMOST calling him "Moscow Mitch and a traitor." If I'd done so I'd be imitating those who speak of "Corporal Rashida" and so on. The Trumpist ilk is happy with their "Pocahontas", "Corporal Rashida", "Sleepy Joe", "Benghazi Monica-cuckoldee". By angrily pounding out "Moscow Mitch" in retaliation, I let that ilk play "See? Same-same." It's inconsiderate of me to bang out stupidities like "Moscow Mitch" and I apologize again. But I'll repeat the charge of "treason" in that Leader McConnell abets enemies; and weakens the American common people with his evil/greedy positions that defy citizen preference AND economic (and other scientific) predictions AND defeat democratic (small-d) governance.
 

Swammerdami

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So the QOP under McConnell "filibustered" a Keep-the-government-open bill. They'd be willing to keep it open for one week, but then would shut it down anyway when the debt ceiling is breached in early October. About this, the Treasury Secretary warned:
The stakes are extremely high. Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen called on Congress to raise the debt ceiling in a recent Wall Street Journal op-ed, warning that if the US defaults on its debt, it "could trigger a spike in interest rates, a steep drop in stock prices and other financial turmoil."

I see no problem with the debt ceiling. Just start minting the frigging Trillion-dollar coins! (For those who call this inflationary, I reply that Treasury will redeem those coins as soon as voters stop sending traitors and financial terrorists to Capitol Hill.)

I'd also like the Senate Parliamentarian replaced. Finally, since the Koch-sucking D's, Manchin and Sinema have in effect joined the QOP party. I'd like Texas and Florida to be declared in rebellion; and for Pelosi and Harris to dismiss all Congresspeople from states certified by Potus to be in rebellion.

Is this "playing hardball"? You betcha! The peril is much greater than many realize. There will be a Civil War. Let it start while the QOP does not yet have its finger on the Nuclear Button.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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GOP/Dems: Road trip! Let's go to Florida!!!
*get on bus, heading to Florida*
Bus Driver: Alright everyone, looks like we'll need to stop for gas in a half hour, so you can stretch your legs.
GOP: What? No! We didn't approve getting more gas.
Dems: What?! How are we supposed to get to Florida if we don't get more gas.
GOP: We stand firm, no more gas.
Bus Driver: We are 15 minutes from the Plaza. Please make up your mind.
Dems: You signed off on us going to Florida. You agreed to it. You can't just say no more gas. You need that in order to get to Florida. That implicitly implies you supported getting gas.
GOP: We see this as nothing but a power grab.
Bus Driver: We are about to pass the Plaza.
Dem: This is insane.
GOP: We would support getting gas if you don't go anywhere while we are in Florida.
Dem: That is the whole point of going to Florida.
*bus goes past the Plaza*
Bus Driver: *sigh* Well, if I slow down a little, we have enough gas to get us another 20 miles after the plaza.
*bus runs out of gas*

*starts getting hot on the bus*

*one week passes*

Dems: Can we at least get off the bus.
GOP: That wasn't part of the deal.

*two weeks pass*

GOP: Okay, you guys can get us some gas.
 

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Why not let republicans have it? Instead of social security checks send letters explaining why government can't send money.
 

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Call the Republican's bluff. Let them shoulder most of the blame for any negative consequences.

The republicans are the minority party. It's very thin, but non the less true. I think that the public will blame the dems. We need to pass the budget. We have enough headwinds going against us, we need to pass the budget.
I disagree. If every Democrat votes to raise the limit but bill fails, the GOP will take the blame.
 

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Why not let republicans have it? Instead of social security checks send letters explaining why government can't send money.

Failure to pay SocSec would cause immediate suffering, and destroy what little faith Americans still have in government.

The strong Dollar has been the bulwark of world finance for almost 90 years. Evidence that U.S. Treasury does not meet its obligations might cause a financial storm worse than the blizzards of 2008-2009.

Rightly or wrongly, the Democratic Party gives high priority to the welfare of the American people, international respect for the country, and the future of humanity. It is terrorist organizations like the GOP and QAnon who (play into Kremlin's hand and) are eager to play treasonous games of "chicken."

Sure, it would be good to find a way to demonstrate to millions of American voters who their true enemies are, but increasingly this seems futile. You can find YouTubes showing how bizarrely stupid the average American is. Many are stumped by simple questions like "Name a foriegn country." And 49% of Americans are even stupider than the average American!
 

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Why not let republicans have it? Instead of social security checks send letters explaining why government can't send money.

Failure to pay SocSec would cause immediate suffering, and destroy what little faith Americans still have in government.

The strong Dollar has been the bulwark of world finance for almost 90 years. Evidence that U.S. Treasury does not meet its obligations might cause a financial storm worse than the blizzards of 2008-2009.

Rightly or wrongly, the Democratic Party gives high priority to the welfare of the American people, international respect for the country, and the future of humanity. It is terrorist organizations like the GOP and QAnon who (play into Kremlin's hand and) are eager to play treasonous games of "chicken."

Sure, it would be good to find a way to demonstrate to millions of American voters who their true enemies are, but increasingly this seems futile. You can find YouTubes showing how bizarrely stupid the average American is. Many are stumped by simple questions like "Name a foriegn country." And 49% of Americans are even stupider than the average American!

But should not stupid people suffer?
 

Jimmy Higgins

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Maybe it is as simple as putting forth the Should the US Not Default on its Debt Bill.
Call the Republican's bluff. Let them shoulder most of the blame for any negative consequences.

The republicans are the minority party. It's very thin, but non the less true. I think that the public will blame the dems. We need to pass the budget. We have enough headwinds going against us, we need to pass the budget.
I disagree. If every Democrat votes to raise the limit but bill fails, the GOP will take the blame.
It should, the GOP said they'd vote for a continuing resolution for the budget... which we can't afford to pay, but won't vote for suspending the debt ceiling limit. But the American people are fickle... and can be quite stupid. After all, both sides are just as bad.
 

Elixir

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Call the Republican's bluff. Let them shoulder most of the blame for any negative consequences.

The republicans are the minority party. It's very thin, but non the less true. I think that the public will blame the dems. We need to pass the budget. We have enough headwinds going against us, we need to pass the budget.

This is not about the budget, it's about bills that are coming due. The money is not subject to being budgeted - it has already been budgeted and spent. (Much of it by the Trump administration.)
We either pay our bills or default on those payments.
I'm not sure what the GQP thinks it has to gain by fucking up America's credit, people and ability to function.
Seems that their calculation is that more pain is better, as long as there's a Dem in the WH.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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What I don't get is how the GOP figures to win out in this. They can't exactly get the Dems to promise not to spend more money. The GOP has effectively put themselves into a situation where they either have to swerve or appear to swerve, or let the nation default.
 

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What I don't get is how the GOP figures to win out in this.
I believe they assume they can blame the Dems for everything. Biden in the WH, Dems have the majority, if you couldn't get your SS check, it MUST be their fault.
And hopefully their base will buy the 'we did everything we could' excuse and not figure the actual blame.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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Defaulting the US debt is umm... a bit of a nuclear option by nuclear option standards for petty partisan gain.
 

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Defaulting the US debt is umm... a bit of a nuclear option by nuclear option standards for petty partisan gain.
Well, they've been trashing the nation in favor of petty partisan gains and getting away with it for a while, now.
They MAY be staggering back to their offices and saying, "Holyshit! I can't believe we got away with it again!" surprised that they're not being held accountable.
But i suspect it's more like Trump. They've reached a point where they don't believe they CAN be held accountable, they'll just lie MORE until the Democrats are blamed.
 

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The Ds wanted to combine a continuing spending resolution with a 1-year (or more) extension of the debt ceiling.

The Rs want these emergency measures separated and made shorter-term so that they have more opportunities for extortion and threatening "nuclear options."

I'd love to see Secretary Yellen start minting platinum coins, with a press release saying she's defending the Dollar from QAnon financial terrorists. The problem is that the QOP would just dig their heels in to other ways to extort the Ds and sabotage America.


But should not stupid people suffer?
:confused:
I think you'll need to publish your complete manifesto so we can see how this sentiment fits in to a grander, and surely fascinating, philosophy.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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GOP agrees with Dems in US Senate to pass stopgap budget bill that US can't afford to pay by mid-October due to debt ceiling.
article said:
Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer and Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell both confirmed on the Senate floor moments ago that the chamber plans to pass a stopgap funding bill today to avert a government shutdown and keep the government funded through early December.
And when they say 'funded', we mean authorization to spend, not the ability to borrow to spend it. So the GOP is continuing with their Alice in Wonderland governance.
 

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Why not let republicans have it? Instead of social security checks send letters explaining why government can't send money.

Failure to pay SocSec would cause immediate suffering, and destroy what little faith Americans still have in government.

The strong Dollar has been the bulwark of world finance for almost 90 years. Evidence that U.S. Treasury does not meet its obligations might cause a financial storm worse than the blizzards of 2008-2009.

Rightly or wrongly, the Democratic Party gives high priority to the welfare of the American people, international respect for the country, and the future of humanity. It is terrorist organizations like the GOP and QAnon who (play into Kremlin's hand and) are eager to play treasonous games of "chicken."

Sure, it would be good to find a way to demonstrate to millions of American voters who their true enemies are, but increasingly this seems futile. You can find YouTubes showing how bizarrely stupid the average American is. Many are stumped by simple questions like "Name a foriegn country." And 49% of Americans are even stupider than the average American!

But should not stupid people suffer?

No. The Democratic party opposes suffering when options to reduce suffering exist.
 

Gun Nut

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What I don't get is how the GOP figures to win out in this. They can't exactly get the Dems to promise not to spend more money. The GOP has effectively put themselves into a situation where they either have to swerve or appear to swerve, or let the nation default.

"bad things happened because Biden stole election"
That's how
 

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So, the question occurred to me about the debt ceiling. Does it actually matter?

Congress passes a bill for spending. The intent is that spending happen. Does this intent override the debt ceiling legislation? Or... could Biden just say "Fuck you! We are going to continue to borrow. If you want... see you in court."
 

Trausti

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So, the question occurred to me about the debt ceiling. Does it actually matter?

Congress passes a bill for spending. The intent is that spending happen. Does this intent override the debt ceiling legislation? Or... could Biden just say "Fuck you! We are going to continue to borrow. If you want... see you in court."

Nah, there's never consequence to debasement of currency.
 

Swammerdami

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So, the question occurred to me about the debt ceiling. Does it actually matter?

Congress passes a bill for spending. The intent is that spending happen. Does this intent override the debt ceiling legislation? Or... could Biden just say "Fuck you! We are going to continue to borrow. If you want... see you in court."

Nah, there's never consequence to debasement of currency.

:confused: I assume this last "sentence" is just another random jibe. (Pathetic isn't it? We seem to have representatives of QOPAnon right here at TFT, but they never have anything useful to add except useless and inane sarcasm.)

It is true that the Sound American Dollar has, in effect, replaced gold as the world-wide money standard over the past 89 years. Leaders and bankers must be scratching their heads in disbelief that one of our two major Parties has nothing better to do than to play this horrendous game of Chicken, not just with the Dollar but with the entire world economy.

Rather than violating the debt ceiling (illegal) I think it would be better to (legally) Mint the Infamous Platinum Coin! Since the QOPAnon liars and traitors like Alex Jones, Mitch McConnell and Tucker Carlson will be whingeing diarrhea from every orifice in either event, the Biden Administration might as well counter the traitors legally.

The liars and traitors (and perhaps even some TFTers!) will be ranting that the Trillion-Dollar Coin is inflationary. The answer to this is: "Liar! The coin will be redeemed as soon as humans regain control of Capitol Hill."
 

Jimmy Higgins

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So, the question occurred to me about the debt ceiling. Does it actually matter?

Congress passes a bill for spending. The intent is that spending happen. Does this intent override the debt ceiling legislation? Or... could Biden just say "Fuck you! We are going to continue to borrow. If you want... see you in court."

Nah, there's never consequence to debasement of currency.

If the US didn’t spend another deficit dollar, our currency value would most likely NOT increase.
 

Loren Pechtel

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So, the question occurred to me about the debt ceiling. Does it actually matter?

Congress passes a bill for spending. The intent is that spending happen. Does this intent override the debt ceiling legislation? Or... could Biden just say "Fuck you! We are going to continue to borrow. If you want... see you in court."

Nah, there's never consequence to debasement of currency.

Why does debasement only matter when done by Democrats? Because Republicans do it more than Democrats do.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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As America moves towards the brink of economic devastation again... White House indicated that they did look into what I was asking about. They hit the debt ceiling, who cares? Congress passed the spending bill, that is implicit approval of the Government doing what is needed to spend.

article said:
White House officials conducted the review as diligence to map out or test the viability any potential contingencies or theories as Republicans have continued to block Democratic efforts to suspend the debt limit, the person said. Among the theories explored, but dismissed as unworkable either due to legal, political or economic hang ups, was whether there were constitutional grounds to continue payments, as well as the idea of minting a trillion dollar coin, the person said.
Sadly, not much in there about why it wouldn't work. Congress passes spending, isn't it against the law for the Executive Branch not to spend it?
 

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I've read many articles that the democrats can raise the debt limit on their own using the budget reconciliation process, which is immune to a filibuster. They have so far refused to do so. If true, then it is actually the dems playing political games and gambling the economy.

https://thehill.com/homenews/senate...iden-its-time-for-democrats-to-raise-debt?amp
1) Should the Democrats be required to use reconciliation to pass a ceiling hike? Shouldn't the GOP be just approving... well, getting rid of it in the first place?
2) Has reconciliation ever been used to pass a debt ceiling hike before?

*web search*

Apparently the debt ceiling has been raised four times before using reconciliation.
 

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I don't know about 'required', but they should do it and then use the repub 'no' votes in their message about how the repubs voted no to paying America's bills, voting for a default, stock market collapse, and deep recession. The fact that they aren't yet doing that shows they are playing political games just as much as the republicians, because they perceive a debt limit increase yes vote as bad politically.
 

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I've read many articles that the democrats can raise the debt limit on their own using the budget reconciliation process, which is immune to a filibuster. They have so far refused to do so. If true, then it is actually the dems playing political games and gambling the economy.

https://thehill.com/homenews/senate...iden-its-time-for-democrats-to-raise-debt?amp
And the Republicans aren't playing political games with the debt limit, right?

Actually, what's happening is different factions of the Democrats are at loggerheads with each other as to what will be going in the reconciliation bill. It's not Mitch McConnell obstructionism.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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I don't know about 'required', but they should do it and then use the repub 'no' votes in their message about how the repubs voted no to paying America's bills, voting for a default, stock market collapse, and deep recession. The fact that they aren't yet doing that shows they are playing political games just as much as the republicians, because they perceive a debt limit increase yes vote as bad politically.
The Democrats put forth a continuing resolution bill that included the hike in the debt ceiling which was required for the continuing resolution bill not be nonsensical. And the Republicans voted it down. The GOP fully supports the spending and the borrowing, but have clearly decided to make the Dems take a political hit that they'll use against them in 2022.
 

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I don't know about 'required', but they should do it and then use the repub 'no' votes in their message about how the repubs voted no to paying America's bills, voting for a default, stock market collapse, and deep recession. The fact that they aren't yet doing that shows they are playing political games just as much as the republicians, because they perceive a debt limit increase yes vote as bad politically.

hmmm... implement logic and reason requiring a deep understanding of civics and procedure, the ingestion of complex legal documents, and navigation of very long sentences with compounded gramatical complexities and post-fifth-grade vocabulary? Your a fucking genius! That'll learn them ignuts but gud!

You should work for the DNC... Their marketing could use a fresh injection of incomprehensibility to the target audience.
 

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So Mitt Romney, sometimes viewed as the one QOP Senator who hasn't embraced QAnon lies, has shown his true colors by voting against an emergency measure to raise the debt ceiling. What does financial Armageddon matter if the alternative is to thumb one's nose at constituents certain that George Soros is poisoning their drinking water with space lasers?

And Moscow Mitch, proud that he has achieved so much for his Kremlin masters, has graciously agreed to wait six whole weeks before again bringing the U.S. to the brink of catastrophe.

Uh.... Victory for mankind, I guess?
 

Jimmy Higgins

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What I don't get is how the GOP figures to win out in this. They can't exactly get the Dems to promise not to spend more money. The GOP has effectively put themselves into a situation where they either have to swerve or appear to swerve, or let the nation default.
And as I suggested, McConnell swerves to a two month can kicking resolution, as the US can't default. That way he can say in two months, the Democrats spent trillions we didn't have, we aren't voting for this resolution again... until the last second.
 

ZiprHead

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I saw this and thought it explained it pretty well.

Husband: Wife, I order you to buy 500 dollars worth of groceries. Here's 300 dollars to do it. The grocery store will put the rest on a tab.

Wife: Ok. But we are going to have to pay the grocery store at the end of the month.

**End of month comes**
Wife: Alright, I have to pay the grocery store. I need $200.

Husband: What? We don't have $200.

Wife: Ok, then we'll just have to put it on a credit card then. But our credit card limit is only $100. Can you raise it to $200 so we can pay the grocery store? If we don't give them their money, they will stop selling us food.

Husband: WHAT?! How can you be so lax with your spending?! WE CAN'T AFFORD THAT DEBT! YOU need to be frugal. Good thing I'm around to control your spending.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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Jimmy Higgins Proudly Presents...

The List of US Spending That Didn't Happen Because of a Debt Ceiling

*tumbleweeds*
 

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Jake Sherman on Twitter: "Pelosi mentions the idea that Treasury should be able to lift the debt ceiling, and Congress can overrule it. Pelosi says this idea “has merit"

“That seems to have some appeal to both sides of the aisle because of the consequences to people for not lifting it,” Pelosi said." / Twitter

then
Senator Jeff Merkley on Twitter: ".@SpeakerPelosi, this would move us in right direction. Politicians shouldn’t be able to use the debt ceiling as a weapon—it’s reckless. There’s too much at stake, and to play this kind of political game is to flirt with disaster." / Twitter

Senator Jeff Merkley on Twitter: "Last month, @timkaine and I introduced a bill to de-weaponize the debt ceiling by allowing the executive branch to raise the debt ceiling, subject to a congressional override. (link)" / Twitter

Press Release | Press Releases | News | U.S. Senator Jeff Merkley of Oregon - yes, one of my state's two Senators

S.2819 - 117th Congress (2021-2022): Protect Our CREDIT Act of 2021 | Congress.gov | Library of Congress
Shown Here:
Introduced in Senate (09/23/2021)

Protect Our Citizens from Reckless Extortion of our Debt and Irresponsible Tactics Act of 2021 or the Protect Our CREDIT Act of 2021

This bill allows the President to increase the statutory debt limit unless a joint resolution of disapproval is passed by Congress and becomes law.

Prior to the beginning of each fiscal year, the President must submit to Congress a certification that specifies the existing debt, the debt limit, and the debt that will be necessary to issue during the next year to meet existing commitments. The debt limit is increased by the proposed amount, unless a joint resolution of disapproval is passed by Congress within 15 days and becomes law. Congress must consider the joint resolution using specified expedited legislative procedures.

The President must submit an additional certification to Congress during the year if the debt is within $250 billion of the limit, and further borrowing is necessary to meet existing commitments. The certification must propose a new debt limit for the remainder of the year and explain any discrepancy with the earlier certification. The new debt limit also goes into effect, unless a joint resolution of disapproval is passed by Congress within 15 days and becomes law.

The bill suspends the debt limit during the period in which Congress is considering a joint resolution of disapproval after the President has submitted a mid-year certification.
Complete with a cutesy acronym.

I'd like to be rid of this stupid political theater about the debt limit.
 
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