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Decline of the Western World

There's no real question that Germany and Japan lost (eventually); But identifying who won is not so simple. The USA and USSR won; Both became superpowers, with the latter gaining huge areas of territory in Eastern Europe.
I am talking about win/lose in terms of economy and human resources. USSR lost 30 millions people and a lot of cities were destroyed. Both Japan/Germany were nominal losers but they were "helped" after the war in exchange for being US lapdogs.
So they had their economies fixed pretty quickly. Neither USSR nor China had any help from the US. USSR had, in fact, the opposite - the cold War where we had to put resources into defence.

It's just a fact that WW2 had been good for US. But now the era of US rule is coming to an end.
 
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Both Japan/Germany were nominal losers but they were "helped" after the war in exchange for being US lapdogs.
So they had their economies fixed pretty quickly. Neither USSR nor China had any help from the US.
Stuff and nonsense. The US gave China a huge amount of aid after the war. Not our fault China threw it all away on an idiotic civil war to set up an idiotic economic system.
 
Both Japan/Germany were nominal losers but they were "helped" after the war in exchange for being US lapdogs.
So they had their economies fixed pretty quickly. Neither USSR nor China had any help from the US.
Stuff and nonsense. The US gave China a huge amount of aid after the war. Not our fault China threw it all away on an idiotic civil war to set up an idiotic economic system.
You gave to the puppet government which ended up in Taiwan. So nonsense is all yours.
 
There's no real question that Germany and Japan lost (eventually); But identifying who won is not so simple. The USA and USSR won; Both became superpowers, with the latter gaining huge areas of territory in Eastern Europe.
I am talking about win/lose in terms of economy and human resources. USSR lost 30 millions people and a lot of cities were destroyed. Both Japan/Germany were nominal losers but they were "helped" after the war in exchange for being US lapdogs.
So they had their economies fixed pretty quickly. Neither USSR nor China had any help from the US. USSR had, in fact, the opposite - the cold War where we had to put resources into defence.

It's just a fact that WW2 had been good for US. But now the era of US rule is coming to an end.
Again history.

Stalin made a non aggression pact with Hitler in exchange for part of Poland.

Russia attacked Poland along with Russia.

Russia was complicit in starting WWII. Stalin foolishly believed Hitler wold not attack Russia, and Russia got what it deserved.

It was aid from USA and Canada over the North Atlantic that helped Russia survive the invasion.
 
There's no real question that Germany and Japan lost (eventually); But identifying who won is not so simple. The USA and USSR won; Both became superpowers, with the latter gaining huge areas of territory in Eastern Europe.
I am talking about win/lose in terms of economy and human resources. USSR lost 30 millions people and a lot of cities were destroyed. Both Japan/Germany were nominal losers but they were "helped" after the war in exchange for being US lapdogs.
So they had their economies fixed pretty quickly. Neither USSR nor China had any help from the US. USSR had, in fact, the opposite - the cold War where we had to put resources into defence.

It's just a fact that WW2 had been good for US. But now the era of US rule is coming to an end.

What happened to 'I prefer America over Russia and China'?
 
Modern China built itself on western investmnnt, manufacturing expertise, and technolgy it did nothng to contrinute to. It blantantly stole technology.
Should I bring an issue of gunpowder and Opium Wars?
More propaganda hand waving.

Your defense of Russia is what we would say is like 'putting lipstick on a pig'.

The opium wars was the 1800s.

Our mistake was the unconditional transfer of technology and manufacturing expertise to communist China with no qualifications or restrictions.

When China opened to the west it was an impoverished backwards 3rd world country.
 
Again history.
Sure, you racist slave owners pigs!
Is it enough history for you?
HeeHeeHee Back to the old Soviet ranting.

WE fought a Civil War over slavery. In modern times we had a black/mixed race president, and we may have a female non white mixed race daughter of immigrants as the next president.

As I said, the west evolves, adapts, and changes. Russia and China do not. It was why Russia is relegated to a minor backwater stagnant country.

It is why China is unable tomnanage its internal problems.
 
Again history.
Sure, you racist slave owners pigs!
Is it enough history for you?
Now back to the topic in hands. Do you understand the time of US Hegemony is ending?
:confused2: Why are you calling us racist slave owners' pigs? The Bolsheviks were the pigs of the racist slave owners. Haven't you read Animal Farm? :devil:
 
Both Japan/Germany were nominal losers but they were "helped" after the war in exchange for being US lapdogs.
So they had their economies fixed pretty quickly. Neither USSR nor China had any help from the US.
Stuff and nonsense. The US gave China a huge amount of aid after the war. Not our fault China threw it all away on an idiotic civil war to set up an idiotic economic system.
You gave to the puppet government
Puppet my ass. Chiang Kai-shek incessantly not following our advice was a source of continual exasperation to U.S. planners.

which ended up in Taiwan.
Which got its economy fixed pretty quickly and ended up a prosperous success-story like Japan and Germany. All of China could have had that if Mao had just abandoned his sociopathic struggle to impose Stalinism and evolved his movement into a social-democrat party.

So nonsense is all yours.
If in spite of all our aid postwar Japan and Germany had been conquered by Stalin-backed revolutionaries then their economies would still be in the toilet, and you'd be claiming neither Japan nor Germany had any help from the U.S., and you'd be claiming the Marshall Plan and so forth don't count because they went to puppet pre-communist governments.
 
That's not what the interview was about. They don't even mention words democracy authoritarians.
That was my "contribution". And I am not advocating for authoritarians. I am just saying it has nothing to do with economic success. And US is the best example.
And the guy is even trashing Trump's economic policies. So your comment is patently idiotic.
What is truly idiotic is to make a claim that China is doing better than the US. Whether it be median incomes and quality of life, economic freedom, political freedom, military might, the US is doing an order of magnitude better than China on these metrics. Do you take me for an idiot? Stop insulting our intelligence.

Wrong. Very wrong. The rise of China's prosperity over recent decades has been breath-taking.

Obviously its per capita GDP is still only a fraction of the USA's but such numbers cannot change overnight. In 1950 China's per capita product was slightly less than that of Burundi, which today is one of the poorest countries in the world. For total GDP, China is now #2 in the world, fast approaching the #1 slot. When the "PPP" adjustment is made to GDP, China is already #1, a whopping 23% ahead of the #2 (USA). Yes, obviously totals are "inflated" because China has 4 times the U.S.'s population. But you wrote "order of magnitude." That means "10" which is more than "4." Is your knowledge of China still grounded in the 20th century?

One comparison that appeals to me is to compare GDP (PPP) per capita between China and my country of residence -- Thailand. (Thailand is not a particularly poor country: its current GDP(PPP) is almost twice that of Philippines and almost thrice that of Cambodia.)

In 2002, Thailand led China by this metric 7000 to 4700. In 2024 China leads 25k to 23.4k. Again, the rise of China's prosperity over recent decades has been breath-taking. They lead the world in science and technology. "In 2022, China surpassed the United States as the leading nation in the Earth and environmental sciences (E&E) in the Nature Index, owing, in no small part, to the funding and resources the country has poured into fields including the atmospheric sciences, geology and materials science."

This site provides a TvR (TrueValueRating) for the world's navies. Click and see that the USA and China are essentially tied by that metric. China leads the world in solar energy and solar panel production, wind energy and wind turbine production, and battery production. About 50% of nuclear reactors currently under construction are in China. Et cetera, et cetera.

Get the picture?
 
That's not what the interview was about. They don't even mention words democracy authoritarians.
That was my "contribution". And I am not advocating for authoritarians. I am just saying it has nothing to do with economic success. And US is the best example.
And the guy is even trashing Trump's economic policies. So your comment is patently idiotic.
What is truly idiotic is to make a claim that China is doing better than the US. Whether it be median incomes and quality of life, economic freedom, political freedom, military might, the US is doing an order of magnitude better than China on these metrics. Do you take me for an idiot? Stop insulting our intelligence.

Wrong. Very wrong. The rise of China's prosperity over recent decades has been breath-taking.

Axulus wasn’t just talking about economics. Mentioned also was economic freedom, political freedom and military might, and in these, despite all our flaws, we have China beat six ways ways of Sunday. Moreover, upthread I linked a couple of studies contending with strong evidence that China has very serious economic and demographic problems. What should probably also should be mentioned is that in the decades ahead, climate change is going to take a horrendous toll on China, along with many of its neighbors. That part of the world is in the REALLY bad zone for climate change.
 
Mao wanted to 'leap forward' to a modern industrial state and ended up entreating inefficient useless state industries. He got rid of all the pole who could have made the economy work. Like Stalin.


The Cultural Revolution, formally known as the Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution, was a sociopolitical movement in the People's Republic of China (PRC). It was launched by Mao Zedong in 1966 and lasted until his death in 1976. Its stated goal was to preserve Chinese socialism by purging remnants of capitalist and traditional elements from Chinese society. Though it failed to achieve its main objectives, the Cultural Revolution marked the effective return of Mao to the center of power in China after his political sidelining, in the aftermath of the Great Leap Forward and the Great Chinese Famine.

Maoism and collectivization led to famine and chaos. A purge of all things capitalist.


The Great Leap Forward was an economic and social campaign within the People's Republic of China (PRC) from 1958 to 1962, led by the Chinese Communist Party (CCP). Party Chairman Mao Zedong launched the campaign to reconstruct the country from an agrarian economy into an industrialized society through the formation of people's communes. Millions of people died in mainland China during the Great Leap, with estimates based on demographic reconstruction ranging from 15 to 55 million, making the Great Chinese Famine the largest or second-largest[1] famine in human history.[2][3][4][5]

The Great Leap Forward stemmed from multiple factors, including "the purge of intellectuals, the surge of less-educated radicals, the need to find new ways to generate domestic capital, rising enthusiasm about the potential results mass mobilization might produce, and reaction against the sociopolitical results of the Soviet's development strategy."[6] Mao ambitiously sought an increase in rural grain production and an increase in industrial activity. Mao was dismissive of technical experts and basic economic principles, which meant that industrialization of the countryside would solely be dependent on the peasants. Grain quotas were introduced with the idea of having peasants provide grains for themselves and support urban areas. Output from the industrial activities such as steel was also supposed to be used for urban growth.[6] Local officials were fearful of Anti-Rightist Campaigns and they competed to fulfill or over-fulfill quotas which were based on Mao's exaggerated claims, collecting non-existent "surpluses" and leaving farmers to starve to death. Higher officials did not dare to report the economic disaster which was being caused by these policies, and national officials, blaming bad weather for the decline in food output, took little or no action.

Then the Gang Of Four


The Gang of Four (simplified Chinese: 四人帮; traditional Chinese: 四人幫; pinyin: Sìrén bāng) was the name given to a political group of four Chinese Communist Party officials. The leader of the group was Jiang Qing, Mao Zedong's last wife. The other three were Zhang Chunqiao, Yao Wenyuan and Wang Hongwen. They became powerful during China's Cultural Revolution.[1] After the death of Mao Zedong, Jiang Quing was plotting a coup d'état to take over power. She and her close associates in the Gang of four were arrested, put on trial.[2]

Jiang Qing and Zhang Chunqiao received death sentences that were later changed to life imprisonment. Wang Hongwen and Yao Wenyuan were given life and twenty years in prison, respectively. All members of the Gang of Four have since died. Jiang Qing committed suicide in 1991, Wang Hongwen died in 1992. Yao Wenyuan and Zhang Chunqiao died in 2005: they had been released from prison in 1996 and 1998 respectively.


Fast forward to Deng Xiaoping and opening to the west. Over time China abandoned the Communist ideology in all but name adapting western free market principles, while sill maintaining central control.

China maintains its anti west rhetoric, yet it is western economics, western technology and manufacturing, a stable dollar, and a stable international system of trade that brought China out of the Maoist Great Leap Forward misery.


What China will do in its revolutionary zeal would be to create the old Maoist chaos if in control of world trade. Maybe the CCP at the top is too self absorbed and stupid to realize the consequences of what they are doing. No competing political ideas, a monolithic gcentral control.

 
Wrong. Very wrong. The rise of China's prosperity over recent decades has been breath-taking.
Axulus wasn’t just talking about economics. Mentioned also was economic freedom,

The U.S. economy now has HUGE reliance on "financial services", e.g. hedge fund speculations. In other sectors cartels and monopolies flourish increasingly, to the detriment of the real economy and income distribution. BOTH of these features can be attributed to "economic freedom", but if those are the consequences increasingly strong today, please give me LESS "freedom"!

Did you watch any of the video, pood? He stresses that sanctions do NOT work. U.S. financial threats have led to the BRICS system bypassing New York's FRB, thereby making sanctions even LESS useful in future. And China has something like TEN times the economy of Russia.

(In my post I compare Thailand's growth with China's. I forgot to mention that Thailand's growth over the period was itself VERY large, making China's relatively even HUGER.

political freedom

Trump/Musk/QAnon --> Fascism Need I say more?

and military might

I'd never heard of TvR until just now. Do you dispute the claim that China's TvR is as good as USA's? (Please start another thread to discuss combat against aircraft carriers.)

Population is itself a huge strength. Would the USA really be so much "greater" than Switzerland or Norway, when the population scale is ignored? In that sense, China's high population is an important asset when assessing a country's strength.

, and in these, despite all our flaws, we have China beat six ways ways of Sunday.

Obviously we had a HUGE headstart. Recall my comment that China was poorer than Burundi in 1950 (and for a long while thereafter), while USA dominated the globe in almost all areas. Yet despite the huge advantage four decades ago, China is now in hot pursuit. Check this for yourself, please. At a minimum you will want to change "six ways from Sunday" to "2½ ways from Sunday." 8-)
Moreover, upthread I linked a couple of studies contending with strong evidence that China has very serious economic and demographic problems. What should probably also should be mentioned is that in the decades ahead, climate change is going to take a horrendous toll on China, along with many of its neighbors. That part of the world is in the REALLY bad zone for climate change.
 

Trump/Musk/QAnon --> Fascism Need I say more?

To focus on this for a moment.

Trump/Musk/QAnon are not in charge of the country. Maybe they will be if Trump wins, but I don’t think he will win. China under the Communist Party continues to be a brutally repressive society. Shall we recall Tiananmen Square? Even Trump couldn’t pull off an atrocity like that, though I’m sure he’d like to try.

Have you read the links I gave about China’s serious economic and demographic problems?


 
Yes, obviously totals are "inflated" because China has 4 times the U.S.'s population. But you wrote "order of magnitude." That means "10" which is more than "4."
When making Fermi estimates, it is usual to round 3 or lower to 1, and 4 or higher to 10. So "China has a population that is an order of magnitude greater than that of the USA" is, approximately, correct. Just as "China has 4 times the U.S.'s population" is also approximately correct.

The actual and precise ratio of the populations of the two countries is a continuously changing number that is of little importance to anyone, and cannot be known due to the limitations of current information gathering technologies, so quibbling over ones choice of approximation technique seems rather silly.

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(source)
 
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