Decline of the Western World

[barbos]

The biggest evidence that the US is declining is the rise of Trump and Trumpism.

He is not evidence, he is a symptom and you don't really treat/defeat the symptoms if you want a real cure.

 

[Toni]

The biggest evidence that the US is declining is the rise of Trump and Trumpism.

He is not evidence, he is a symptom and you don't really treat/defeat the symptoms if you want a real cure.

Depends. For some diseases, one needs antibiotics. For other, chemo and/or surgery or radiation. But viruses just need to run their course. Support the body with fluids and nutrition and let the body heal.

 

[barbos]

The biggest evidence that the US is declining is the rise of Trump and Trumpism.

He is not evidence, he is a symptom and you don't really treat/defeat the symptoms if you want a real cure.

Depends. For some diseases, one needs antibiotics. For other, chemo and/or surgery or radiation. But viruses just need to run their course. Support the body with fluids and nutrition and let the body heal.

You won't get better if you get rid of "evidence"

 

[Toni]

The biggest evidence that the US is declining is the rise of Trump and Trumpism.

He is not evidence, he is a symptom and you don't really treat/defeat the symptoms if you want a real cure.

Depends. For some diseases, one needs antibiotics. For other, chemo and/or surgery or radiation. But viruses just need to run their course. Support the body with fluids and nutrition and let the body heal.

You won't get better if you get rid of "evidence"

What are you talking about?

I fully agree that all evidence of Trump’s collusion with Russia, among others, needs to have a bright light shined on it.

 

[steve_bank]

The biggest evidence that the US is declining is the rise of Trump and Trumpism.

That’s it. Full stop. Hopefully, Trumpism will be defeated in the fall and will recede and with some hard work, will die the death it deserves.

Barbos cleverly illustrates the world view that supports Trumpism: elevation of the monied class and submission of the masses, kept in place by keeping fingers pointed everywhere except at those who make the rules—and benefit from them. Well, I guess for some, that beats actually thinking for themselves and assuming the control over their own lives. I get it: some people are just happier being told what to do.

But there is another way of looking at life, living life. That is recognizing that we are all better off when we are all better off—when everyone is given economic opportunity and personal freedom, everyone is happier and the world is more stable. Stability promotes economic prosperity for all, not just for defense contractors and oligarchs or propagandists.

Yes some people will have more just as some people will be taller. Not everyone wants or needs the same things—but there are basics everyone needs: food, housing, healthcare, clean air and water, education, healthcare, education, safety at home and in the neighborhood and moving through the world and equal protection under the law.

Your height or weight or gender or color or sexual orientation should not determine the extent to which society society supports and values you nor should those characteristics determine what rights you enjoy or how the law treats you.

Some people don’t like change. Some people are more comfortable with a few people in charge and not having to thin too hard, especially about other people’s welfare. They just don’t have the vision to see that a society that views everyone as deserving of good and equal treatment does the same thing for more people than letting the monied class rule. IMO, they need to grow the fuck up.

If you look at our political history going back to the beginning Trump is not new. What is new is the Internet and 24/7 reporting that amplifies.

1876 United States presidential election - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The 1876 United States presidential election was the 23rd quadrennial presidential election, held on Tuesday, November 7, 1876.

Following President Grant's decision to retire after his second term, U.S. Representative James G. Blaine emerged as frontrunner for the Republican nomination. However, Blaine was unable to win a majority at the 1876 Republican National Convention, which settled on Governor Hayes of Ohio as a compromise candidate. The 1876 Democratic National Convention nominated Governor Tilden of New York on the second ballot.

The election was among the most contentious in American history, and was only resolved by the Compromise of 1877, where Hayes agreed to end Reconstruction in exchange for recognition of his presidency. On March 2, 1877, the House and Senate confirmed Hayes as president. Tilden won 184 electoral votes to Hayes's 165 in the first count, with the 20 votes from Florida, Louisiana, South Carolina, and Oregon disputed. To address this constitutional crisis, Congress established the Electoral Commission, which awarded all twenty votes (and thus the presidency) to Hayes in a strict party-line vote. Some Democratic representatives filibustered the commission's decision, hoping to prevent Hayes's inauguration, but their filibuster was ultimately ended by party leader Samuel J. Randall.

Trump represents the downside of an open democratic system. There are no quantification for office other than getting enough people to vote for you.

Corrupt governors, tensors, and presidents are part of our history.

The idea was the three checks and balances in federal government to keep it under control.

During Trump the courts even judges apportioned by Trump rejected his stolen election cases. Congress faipeed to keep him n check when in office. SCOTUS failed by giving Trump wide latitude if he gets reelected.

 

[Toni]

Evil is as old as time itself.

 

[steve_bank]

Mao wanted to

Mao is dead. Otherwise go back to where you came from - the 60s

The same ignorance of World history and hw we got h with China as you are of Russian history.

You're very selective with your "history", aren't you, you little history man?

The fact remains Russia is entering a 3rd year of a senseless war. Russia is is to a large degree isolated outside of minor authorterian states that support him.

China is using Russia and Putin as a political pawn. If I were Russian Id be embarrassed.

As you said the OP is about China not Russia.

Shall we stick to China?

 

[ZiprHead]

Average dwelling size in China - 448.8 square feet
Average dwelling size in US - 2,233 square feet

Motor vehicles per 1000 people in China - 231
Motor vehicles per 1000 people in US - 900

People using safely managed sanitation services (% of population) in China - 67.2
People using safely managed sanitation services (% of population) in US - 97.0

Internet users in China - 77.3%
Internet users in US - 92.4%

World Press Freedom Index* China - 23.36
World Press Freedom Index* US - 66.59 (should be much higher IMO)
*Countries are ranked on a scale from 0–100 points.

Polluted air China* - 38.2
Pollured air US* - 7.2
* Data measured in PM2.5 levels by country. A high PM2.5 level indicates very poor air quality. A very low PM2.5 level denotes clean air.

Tell me again how great China is.

 

[steve_bank]

Foreign reporters do not have free access across the country, and Chinese media is controlled.

What has come out in the past is life in Chinese manufacturing compounds . Military keeps order, people live in crematoriums, and eat in dining halls.

Poor people form the countryside, they make enough to send money back to families. They can not afford the products they build.

It was a ways back, it was found Microsoft products were being made by what amounts to slave labor. Child labor.

Those pesky civil rights just get in the way of progress....

 

[barbos]

The biggest evidence that the US is declining is the rise of Trump and Trumpism.

He is not evidence, he is a symptom and you don't really treat/defeat the symptoms if you want a real cure.

Depends. For some diseases, one needs antibiotics. For other, chemo and/or surgery or radiation. But viruses just need to run their course. Support the body with fluids and nutrition and let the body heal.

You won't get better if you get rid of "evidence"

What are you talking about?

I am talking about decades and decades of electing Deep State candidates caught up with the US public and they decided to go with the idiot who decided to exploit that frustration.

I fully agree that all evidence of Trump’s collusion with Russia, among others, needs to have a bright light shined on it.

You have been out of the loop, have not you? Russia Collusion has been thoroughly debanked long time ago.
And fully agree with whom? I have never supported that shit, in fact I provided incontrovertible evidence that it was a scam.

 

[Toni]

The biggest evidence that the US is declining is the rise of Trump and Trumpism.

He is not evidence, he is a symptom and you don't really treat/defeat the symptoms if you want a real cure.

Depends. For some diseases, one needs antibiotics. For other, chemo and/or surgery or radiation. But viruses just need to run their course. Support the body with fluids and nutrition and let the body heal.

You won't get better if you get rid of "evidence"

What are you talking about?

I am talking about decades and decades of electing Deep State candidates caught up with the US public and they decided to go with the idiot who decided to exploit that frustration.

I fully agree that all evidence of Trump’s collusion with Russia, among others, needs to have a bright light shined on it.

You have been out of the loop, have not you? Russia Collusion has been thoroughly debanked long time ago.
And fully agree with whom? I have never supported that shit, in fact I provided incontrovertible evidence that it was a scam.

Nope, I'm pretty much up to date. Trump's collusion, albeit perhaps unwitting, as is most of what he says, thinks or does is.

 

[barbos]

Nope, I'm pretty much up to date.

No, you are not.

 

[steve_bank]

Barbos, the deep state conspiracy theory over here as used by Trump in the past is old and stale.

If you are trying to sow divisions and conspiracy theories over here you are not very good at it. Are you using ChatGPT to make up your posts?

From what I heard Trump and Putin had a sexual relationship. It is the only way to explain the Putin Trump bromance.

 

[barbos]

Barbos, the deep state conspiracy theory over here as used by Trump in the past is old and stale.

So anything Trump touches must die?
Is that your theory?
Deep or Permanent State is not a conspiracy, it's just a fact of your life.

 

[steve_bank]

Barbos, the deep state conspiracy theory over here as used by Trump in the past is old and stale.

So anything Trump touches must die?
Is that your theory?
Deep or Permanent State is not a conspiracy, it's just a fact of your life.

You do not do enough research on your posts. Are you are using Chat GPT.

Hopefully Trump will not get re elected and he will fade into obscurity as a crazy old man with delusions of grandeur and power.

You are wasting your time trying to peddle the deep state conspiracy on this forum.

WE all kow that world is contolled by a Jewsh cabal of bankers.

But then tere is hte Trilateral Commiion said by cnspiracy theorists to be out to take over the wold.

Founded in 1973, the Trilateral Commission is a nongovernmental forum of leading private citizens from Europe, North America, and Japan (now including all of Asia Pacific) that aims to promote mutual understanding and closer cooperation on common problems facing these three major democratic, industrialized regions of ...

The New World Order theory predates the Internet.

Proponents of the “New World Order” conspiracy believe a cabal of
powerful elite figures wielding great political and economic power is
conspiring to implement a totalitarian one-world government. It is
believed that this is taking place through a grand ongoing conspiracy to
influence the media, press, civil society and democracy from the shadows.
Many major world events and crises are attributed to the “New World
Ord

Deep state has come and gone lke other conspiracy theories. Tme to move on, why not invent a new one?

 

[Swammerdami]

BOTH GDP and GDP(PPP) are useful measures used by economists

No, they are not both useful, hence I was surprised when Wolff used nominal GDP.

We'll need you to post a photo of your Doctoral Diploma in Economics before we pay any attention to your unsubstantiated claims, especially when they seem to contradict professional economists.

I don't expect you are capable of linking to a scholarly paper supporting your view, but if I'm wrong, please do so!

I pursued the "basket" used for PPP somewhat. It seems to be a very large basket with weights varying country to country depending on the actual spending habits in each country.

For my own edification, I checked a few prices at www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living for six countries. The table I prepared may be off-topic and uninteresting but having prepared it I will share it. I enclose it in Spoiler tag to minimize distraction.

One major thing which distinguishes countries with high PPP/GDP is low wages. Cheap prices for car repair and perhaps spa treatments is a major plus living in a country like Thailand! Unfortunately the site I used showed only "average salary" and "1 hour taxi wait" as proxies for wage.

Spoiler

All prices in U.S. dollars. The table should be self-explanatory; ask for explanation if not.
Studying the data may be informative. For example there's no "PPP discount" for a new Toyota. I'd have shown iPhone price and more but they weren't available at the site I used.

                China   India   Russia  Thailand USA    Spain
GDP per capita  13.1k   2.7k    14.4k   7.8k    85.4k   34.0k
PPP Inflator    2.0     3.7     2.7     3.0     1.0     1.5

Buy Apartment: Price per Square Meter to Buy Apartment Outside of Centre
                3700    1000    1400    2200    2800    2400
Childcare: International Primary School, Yearly for 1 Child
                19.3k   1.8k    6.2k    12.5k   22.5k   9.0k
Clothing & Shoes: 1 Pair of Jeans (Levis 501 Or Similar)
                50.30   26.70   62.20   47.60   52.30   82.50
Clothing & Shoes: 1 Summer Dress in a Chain Store (Zara, H&M, ...)
                34.30   27.90   37.70   33.70   42.80   34.40
Clothing & Shoes: 1 Pair of Nike Running Shoes (Mid-Range)
                76.60   46.50   85.40   95.10   88.90   86.20
Groceries: Eggs (regular) (12)
                1.70    1.00    1.35    2.15    3.70    2.80
Groceries: Apples (1kg)
                1.85    2.20    1.25    2.90    5.30    2.25
Groceries: Lettuce (1 head)
                0.65    0.55    1.00    1.14    2.20    1.20
Groceries:  Milk (regular), (1 liter)
                1.90    0.70    0.85    1.85    1.05    1.15
Groceries:  Loaf of Fresh White Bread (500g)
                1.70    0.50    0.50    1.40    3.60    1.45
Groceries: Rice (white), (1kg)
                1.00    0.70    1.10    1.30    4.60    1.50
Groceries: Tomato (1kg)
                1.25    0.55    2.10    1.60    4.90    2.45
Groceries: Domestic Beer (0.5 liter bottle)
                0.80    1.90    0.80    1.80    1.80    1.20
Groceries: Cigarettes 20 Pack (Marlboro)
                3.55    4.20    2.25    4.40    10.00   5.90
Groceries: Chicken Fillets (1kg)
                3.50    3.20    3.90    2.80    12.00   7.90
Restaurants: Meal for 2 People, Mid-range Restaurant, Three-course
                25      14      32      26      75      56
Restaurants: Cappuccino (regular)
                3.25    1.90    1.90    2.10    5.15    2.10
Restaurants: Domestic Beer (0.5 liter draught)
                1.00    2.00    1.60    2.10    6.00    3.30
Salaries: Average Monthly Net Salary (After Tax)
                970     630     550     600     4500    1900
Sports & Leisure: Fitness Club, Monthly Fee for 1 Adult
                43.30   17.00   27.40   51.10   46.90   43.60
Sports & Leisure: Cinema, International Release, 1 Seat
                7.10    3.60    4.30    6.70    14.00   8.90
Transportation: Toyota Corolla Sedan 1.6l 97kW Comfort (Or Equivalent New Car)
                18k     23k     28.5k   27.5k   26k     29k
Transportation: Gasoline (1 liter)
                1.20    1.25    0.60    1.25    0.95    1.75
Transportation: Taxi 1hour Waiting (Normal Tariff)
                6.40    1.40    5.20    6.10    30.00   25.00
Utilities: Internet (60 Mbps or More, Unlimited Data, Cable/ADSL) per month
                12.40   8.30    6.20    17.70   71.00   35.00
                China   India   Russia  Thailand USA    Spain

 

[rousseau]

The whole idea of framing global politics as the U.S. versus [anyone] is pretty silly, and frankly a bit juvenile. That doesn't stop people from talking about entire nation-states and their diverse populations like they were a single WWF wrestler pitted against each other, though. This is real life, these are real people, we shouldn't be celebrating the 'decline' of anything, or anywhere. I get Barbos is a Russian troll or whatever, but let's just take the conversation seriously for a second.

Nobody controls the U.S., it isn't a political entity with a unified ideology. It's just a nation state that was very powerful for a while, still is fairly powerful, and like any nation state it uses the power it has to exert itself. Because it's big, other regions of the world are reacting to the things it does. This is just history, the world turning.

But more importantly than the economies of the U.S, Russia, China, we're at a historical inflection point where if we don't react quickly enough to climate change, everyone is going down together. But Putin is all like 'lol let's invade Ukraine and do our best to destabilize a bunch of the world as they try to deal with the problem'. We're fucked.

Sorry, was that too real?

 

[steve_bank]

Our basic ideology no different than the other western liberal democracies in varying degrees.

Free Market Capitalism
Civil rights protected by government
Rule Of Law
Democratic Processes

China recently said democracy is a threat to the CCP.

The US is emblematic and an easy foil for all the petty authoritarian systems around the world.

The USA does not control anyone. We do have influence.

 

[RVonse]

Our mistake was the unconditional transfer of technology and manufacturing expertise to communist China with no qualifications or restrictions.

This was the grave mistake made during Clinton years that will soon cost all of us our way of life.

I actually find myself in agreement with most you have put in thread, this above assessment included. But this transfer of technology and manufacturing is what actually makes Barbos OP correct in the end. IMO the US has been in severe decline since 2008 and has not nor will recover. Too much has been lost to China. The best we can hope for is a managed decline using leverage, debt, and whats left of our reserve currency. Look at the fed being on its last legs right now having to lower interest even though inflation has not been resolved. In the final analysis to enjoy real prosperity you have to produce real goods and value and not live off debt, leverage, and printing of the currency.

Since the worlds technology and manufacturing belongs to China now, I find it unlikely the US will recover either. To recover we would have to better educate all of our population, get along better, and produce more than we consume. Unfortunately, none of that is going to happen.

 

[RVonse]

The whole idea of framing global politics as the U.S. versus [anyone] is pretty silly, and frankly a bit juvenile. That doesn't stop people from talking about entire nation-states and their diverse populations like they were a single WWF wrestler pitted against each other, though. This is real life, these are real people, we shouldn't be celebrating the 'decline' of anything, or anywhere. I get Barbos is a Russian troll or whatever, but let's just take the conversation seriously for a second.

Nobody controls the U.S., it isn't a political entity with a unified ideology. It's just a nation state that was very powerful for a while, still is fairly powerful, and like any nation state it uses the power it has to exert itself. Because it's big, other regions of the world are reacting to the things it does. This is just history, the world turning.

But more importantly than the economies of the U.S, Russia, China, we're at a historical inflection point where if we don't react quickly enough to climate change, everyone is going down together. But Putin is all like 'lol let's invade Ukraine and do our best to destabilize a bunch of the world as they try to deal with the problem'. We're fucked.

Sorry, was that too real?

It is even more juvenile for Klaus Schwab to get in front of everyone and spout his propaganda at the world economic forum like some kind of world spokesman jack ass. But that does not prevent him from doing this while many others listen to him farting away on the podium.