Deism

[abaddon]

I will say that based on behavior, and not self reporting, there are a helluva lot of atheists out there that are unaware of their atheism.

They might not like the label if it's mistaken for being necessarily irreligious. So yes, I think you're right.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

Being atheist and rejecting all contact with religion is a hard way to go.

Avoiding religion is for practical purposes impossible. For me personally, I don't need to look for religion because it looks for me. And when I tell that religion it's wrong, that religion complains that I'm attacking it and being hateful.

Rituals are fine, like Christmas. Now just a commercial holiday obviously but based on the celebration of the birth of a demigod.

Well, that's the Christian version of a pagan belief.

I knew an atheist who became Catholic so he could more easily socialize with his wife at church functions.

If I fell in love with a Christian woman, then I think I'd attend church with her just to keep her happy.

Bach's and Handel's religious music is enjoyable. Greg roan chants.

Perhaps if Christianity never evolved, then great artists may have come along who created art every bit as good as that of Christian artists.

 

[steve_bank]

I like black authentic gospel music. An experience regardless if the religion is true or not . I had planned on gong to a service at Mt Zion in Seattle before the pandemic.

If you know what you are listening to, rock and roll came out of gospel music. Rythems and beats.....

 

[southernhybrid]

I don't know why being an atheist who also embraces a religion is so difficult for some to grasp. I've said before that I've met a few atheists who also considered themselves Christians, at least in the sense that they were members of churches and enjoyed their church services. As an atheist, I consider all religion to be mythology or one could even say that most religions have a philosophical outlook. The god portion can be part of the myth that one embraces, sort of like the idea of Mother Nature. It doesn't have to be taken literally.

And, there are secular religions. The IRS considers Secular Humanism to be a religion, in that there is no need to file a tax return if such an organization collects money to maintain its services. I know this because I was once the treasurer of such an organization and when I asked the IRS about sending in a tax return, I was told that Humanist organizations are considered religions.

One might embrace some of the moralistic teaching of the gospels without taking the mystical parts literally. UU fellowships also permit atheist beliefs. One can believe any version of any religion as long as one believes a liberal interpretation of that religion. So, I've also known quite a few UU members who were also atheists. Religion are like. other organizations. They can do good works and offer people emotional support and other help, or they can be extremists who cause damage to society and/or the individual.

Being an atheist Christian isn't my thing, but I can certainly understand its appeal to some people. Plus, I'm sure there are Christians and other members of religions who lose their belief in an actual god but still enjoy the rituals etc. so they remain members of that religion. Although I've not seen him around in a long time, we did have an atheist Hindu member here for quite awhile. Deists believe there was an actual god, but anyone can enjoy parts of a religion without taking the god part literally.

And yes....Many atheists also use the term "spiritual" to describe themselves. I assume they think of spirituality as experiences that give them a sense of awe or joy. I'm reading a book about the "Nones" and many of them are atheists who like to describe themselves as spiritual. People tend to like to be part of a group and religion often fulfills that need. This also explains why there are so many atheist or secular. humanist groups in the US. I admit they are harder to keep intact, as I've seen a few come and go during my years in Georgia. We are a difficult group to herd.

I'm not a fan of. Handel but I love Mozart's Choral Mass in C Minor. Luckily I don't understand Latin so the words don't bother me. I agree that gospel is good music, but I prefer soul, the secular version of gospel. I wrote this post last night but was called to dinner before I could post it. I think many of my points have already been mentioned, so I'm just agreeing with the idea that religion and atheism can coexist for some.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Everyday atheism = a person being not-theist from one day to the next, and reading up on science as part of what he feels is most meaningful in life.

Religious atheism = a person being not-theist from one day to the next, and practicing reverence towards (or unity with) a supra-human something as what he feels is most meaningful in life.

It's much simpler for me to just say "I'm atheist." No one has ever initiated an academic discussion of what that means.

Of course, it is a religious word. But then again there isn't an everyday word for a person who doesn't believe in santa. So maybe the fact that we're all atheist is another open secret.

 

[steve_bank]

Everyday atheism = a person being not-theist from one day to the next, and reading up on science as part of what he feels is most meaningful in life.

On what basis do you draw that conclusion? Newton was Christian as were many.

I expect take away creationism and Notre Dam and Brigham Young univ have decent science programs. I'm not ptomoting relgion, but pursuit of science is not an 'atheist' pursuit.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I expect take away creationism and Notre Dam and Brigham Young univ have decent science programs. I'm not ptomoting relgion, but pursuit of science is not an 'atheist' pursuit.

I really don't understand the distinction either. Being atheist for me is simply the result of being a scientific naturalist. Is the claim being made that a person can be both a scientific naturalist and a supernaturalist? How would that be possible?

Scientific Naturalism + Supernaturalism - Gods = Religious Atheism

solving for religion

Scientific Naturalism + Supernaturalism - Gods - Atheism = Religion

solving for atheism

Scientific Naturalism + Supernaturalism - Gods - Religion = Atheism

that kinda makes sense but it takes a lot of special pleading

 

[abaddon]

Scientific Naturalism + Supernaturalism - Gods = Religious Atheism

anything plus anything minus gods = what the fuck ever

Just simply don't qualify the term with anything and the problem is solved.

The reason this matters is how many not-remotely-capable-of-it theists keep going "I'm going to undermine the premises of Atheism!" and then start asserting what atheists believe.

I'm fine with them wanting to contrast their worldview with another and say why it's better. That is THE conversation I have always wanted to have. So it'd be great if any of them can ever manage to really do it. But it's always just the "no, YOU atheists are the believers!" bullshitting. Also, none have the ability to even sort the terms they'd need to know to do it.

It seems you're having trouble sorting out the differences too. Which makes it all as clear as mud. You've said (in effect) "it's MY worldview that is atheism". First it was your anti-religion stance that's required of ALL atheists. Then it's your "scientific naturalism" that resulted in your disbelief in gods - which is fine but keep in mind they're not the same thing.

Very plain and simply, don't smush the "isms" together.

If we define atheism in a way that leaves atheists out of atheism, the definition is wrong. So just don't add the qualifiers that'd exclude atheists from atheism.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

It seems you're having trouble sorting out the differences too. Which makes it all as clear as mud. You've said (in effect) "it's MY worldview that is atheism". First it was your anti-religion stance that's required of ALL atheists. Then it's your "scientific naturalism" that resulted in your disbelief in gods - which is fine but keep in mind they're not the same thing.

If by worldview you mean core beliefs and values then atheism wouldn't make my personal list. Scientific naturalism certainly would. So I understand that the two are not the same but don't understand what point you are attempting to make.

 

[abaddon]

Claiming to be atheist is embracing complete independence from all things religious.

My point was this statement you made is false.

The convo veered into atheism because deists are alleged to be half-ass atheists because they didn't shrug off religious concepts entirely. So therefore atheism is the shrugging off of all things religious. That's what some of you did so... there it is, that's what atheism is. And thus secular ideologues become the example of what atheism is - to themselves, to theists.

Except that atheism is only the shrugging off of theism.

But ya'll just go ahead and squeeze all the various pegs in the world into one square peg that'll fit the hole... I don't want to niggle about terminology. I just don't want sophistic theists to use the secularist ideologues as the example of a non-existent "atheist" ideology. Clearly there's a subgroup of such atheists, just like there are many other subgroups. But I suppose it's a lost cause to point it out.

 

[steve_bank]

In the America press of the day Thomas Paine was called a dirty atheist mostly for proposing separation of church and state.

Thomas Paine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Before his arrest and imprisonment in France, knowing that he would probably be arrested and executed, following in the tradition of early 18th-century British Deism Paine wrote the first part of The Age of Reason (1793–1794). Paine's religious views as expressed in The Age of Reason caused quite a stir in religious society, effectively splitting the religious groups into two major factions: those who wanted church disestablishment, and the Christians who wanted Christianity to continue having a strong social influence.[117]

About his own religious beliefs, Paine wrote in The Age of Reason:


I believe in one God, and no more; and I hope for happiness beyond this life.

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church. All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.

Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and tortuous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and, for my part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel.[118]

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

Claiming to be atheist is embracing complete independence from all things religious.

My point was this statement you made is false.

The convo veered into atheism because deists are alleged to be half-ass atheists because they didn't shrug off religious concepts entirely. So therefore atheism is the shrugging off of all things religious. That's what some of you did so... there it is, that's what atheism is. And thus secular ideologues become the example of what atheism is - to themselves, to theists.

Except that atheism is only the shrugging off of theism.

But ya'll just go ahead and squeeze all the various pegs in the world into one square peg that'll fit the hole... I don't want to niggle about terminology. I just don't want sophistic theists to use the secularist ideologues as the example of a non-existent "atheist" ideology. Clearly there's a subgroup of such atheists, just like there are many other subgroups. But I suppose it's a lost cause to point it out.

Right. Words mean different things for different people and different things entirely at different times. They're just labels.

 

[steve_bank]

There is atheism in the sense of an ideology. Peole write books amd speak.

IMO there is an atheist flip side to theism. People on the form in the past have quoted atheist authors much like Chrtians quote scripture.

For me the conclusion was to be free reject the duality itself, it is artificial.