DERAIL - Swedish Prostitution

[Malintent]

The latest Swedish terrorist wave spreads across Europe

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39037674

.. an incident that had nothing to do with 'terrorism', or 'immigration', or any 'immigrant'.

What is the relevance of this random incident?

The war on drugs in Sweden is about as effective in Sweden as elsewhere and brings with it this kind of crime

False. Sweden is doing it right. When they have a social issue, they go after those causing harm, and treat those affected as the victims.
Prostitution - it is illegal, but the prostitutes are not arrested, they get free counseling and work placement. The 'Johns' are arrested.
Heroin - It is illegal, but while the drug dealers are arrested for dealing illegal drugs, the users are treated as victims... they receive counseling, housing, medical assistance, and job placement.

 

[Derec]

.. an incident that had nothing to do with 'terrorism', or 'immigration', or any 'immigrant'.

How do you know that? All we know is that he is from Sweden. Since the name of the suspect was not provided we have no idea whether it's Ahmed or Arne.

Prostitution - it is illegal, but the prostitutes are not arrested, they get free counseling and work placement. The 'Johns' are arrested.

How is that the right way? It robs women of agency by assuming that they are all "victims" even if (as in vast majority of cases) they engage in sex work of their own free will. Also, men are arrested and prosecuted just for wanting to have some consensual sex.
If the sex workers are held against their will they should be helped and those responsible prosecuted. But if sex workers are engaging in sex work voluntarily there is no logical reason (other than feminist scapegoating of men and assuming all women are victims) to treat sex workers differently than their clients. Ideally, it would be legal and authorities would not be persecuting consensual sex just because the powers that be do not approve of it. How are anti-sex work laws and different than say anti-sodomy laws? And how much more bizarre would anti-sodomy laws have been if they had a sort of "Swedish model" that criminalized the pitcher only and deemed the catcher automatically a "victim" no matter that the sex was consensual.

The Swedish model is exactly the wrong way and an example of feminist maternalism and authoritarianism.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

How do you know that? All we know is that he is from Sweden. Since the name of the suspect was not provided we have no idea whether it's Ahmed or Arne.

Prostitution - it is illegal, but the prostitutes are not arrested, they get free counseling and work placement. The 'Johns' are arrested.

How is that the right way? It robs women of agency by assuming that they are all "victims" even if (as in vast majority of cases) they engage in sex work of their own free will. Also, men are arrested and prosecuted just for wanting to have some consensual sex.

It's exactly the wrong way and an example of feminist maternalism and authoritarianism.

If it is just consensual, they can hook up.

 

[Toni]

How do you know that? All we know is that he is from Sweden. Since the name of the suspect was not provided we have no idea whether it's Ahmed or Arne.

Prostitution - it is illegal, but the prostitutes are not arrested, they get free counseling and work placement. The 'Johns' are arrested.

How is that the right way? It robs women of agency by assuming that they are all "victims" even if (as in vast majority of cases) they engage in sex work of their own free will. Also, men are arrested and prosecuted just for wanting to have some consensual sex.

It's exactly the wrong way and an example of feminist maternalism and authoritarianism.

By offering counseling and job placement?

I'm missing the part where prostitutes are forced to undergo counseling or to take other work.

Also you are missing the part where not all prostitutes are female. As well as the part where a large segment of prostitutes of any gender are not prostituting themselves because they are exercising their own agency but because they are compelled to do so.

 

[Derec]

Like yourself.

Not like myself. I have no desire to rape 13 years olds. I am also the wrong religion to get special treatment from Sweden.

Now engaging in consensual sex with sex workers, now that's a "crime" the Swedish prosecutors take very seriously. Unlike child rape by Muslim migrants.

You should have moved to Sweden since they are so lenient with immigrants that commit crimes.

Nice to see you are still obsessed. I think you are in need of a good lapdance, but oh wait, the gynocracy in Iceland banned those.

 

[Derec]

I'm missing the part where prostitutes are forced to undergo counseling or to take other work.

Well, the feminist authorities in Sweden keep locking up their customers for no good reason, so it's kind of hard to engage in that line of work.

Also you are missing the part where not all prostitutes are female.

Vast majority are. If they weren't, then the feminist Left would not declare them all victims automatically.

As well as the part where a large segment of prostitutes of any gender are not prostituting themselves because they are exercising their own agency but because they are compelled to do so.

What do you consider a "large segment"? Note that anti-sex work groups love to conflate "trafficking" and sex work in general.

 

[Derec]

If it is just consensual, they can hook up.

Not everybody is good-looking, charming, etc. enough for the hookup scene.
Why should the government dictate the reason people engage in consensual sex? Why is it that somebody can go to a bar, meet somebody, and have consensual sex, but if money is overtly exchanged, a crime has been committed? Does that really make sense to you? And it makes even less sense when only one party to the transaction is criminalized.
Imagine if you will if it was legal to share drugs, give drugs away, but if you accept payment for drugs, it becomes a crime, but only for the buyer.

 

[DrZoidberg]

.. an incident that had nothing to do with 'terrorism', or 'immigration', or any 'immigrant'.

What is the relevance of this random incident?

Sarcasm?

The war on drugs in Sweden is about as effective in Sweden as elsewhere and brings with it this kind of crime

False. Sweden is doing it right. When they have a social issue, they go after those causing harm, and treat those affected as the victims.

Heroin - It is illegal, but while the drug dealers are arrested for dealing illegal drugs, the users are treated as victims... they receive counseling, housing, medical assistance, and job placement.

Nope. It's the complete opposite. Swedish drug enforcement is a complete disaster. We have among the highest mortality rates in Europe for our addicts. We do not treat addicts as sick people. We treat them as criminals who just need to be punished really harshly until they stop. Getting into rehab is absurdly hard. Preventative care to help people before they develop serious addictions is non-existent. I can go on for days about this. It's a total joke. Every other country in Europe is better. Romanian drug prevention is doing a better job.

Sweden is good for many things. This is something we should feel shame about. We're doing it all wrong and the statistics show it. It is slowly slowly getting better. At least we're now allowing addicts to get hold of clean needles. A bit late though, since they now all have AIDS and Hepatitus C. Well done Sweden. Better late than never though.

Prostitution - it is illegal, but the prostitutes are not arrested, they get free counseling and work placement. The 'Johns' are arrested.

Also false. Immediately after prostitution became legalised (it's legal to sell, not buy) prostitutes formed a union. It turns out that prostitutes rarely are victims are verbal and have no problems arguing their case. Making the johns only illegal makes the life of prostitutes incredibly dangerous. Before they could get all the details from the john. Today johns won't meet them unless they can stay anonymous. Before they could share information about bad johns between them. Now they can't as effectively.

Also turns out that most prostitutes prefer whoring than other jobs so aren't interested in counseling and work placement. Sweden has a well developed social welfare system. Nobody needs to be a prostitute here. That's been the case since the 1940's. We still have prostitutes.

Whether or not trafficking happens is hotly debated. Chances are that all trafficking numbers are bullshit. A major reason to suspect that is that most prostitutes are happy about being prostitutes. And now when they're legal they're not hiding anymore. It makes no sense why a John would pay to fuck an enslaved prostitute and not a voluntary prostitute. We can ask them. But this turned out to be extremely embarrassing for the feminists who pushed this through, since the prostutitues aren't playing the victim role the feminists have given them. Awkward. So they've been completely silenced in the press. Nobody interviews them.

If you don't believe me, here's the link to the Swedish prostitutes union. They're primarily fighting for getting prostitution completely legalised and treated as any other job.

http://www.rosealliance.se/sv/om-oss/

So the "Swedish model" has been an absolute disaster and it's bizarre how the Swedish feminists keep trying to push it. It's just morally wrong and wicked. When it comes to this they really disgust me. They clearly have no care in the world for these women they're trying to "protect". They're not. All they've done is make the lives of prostitutes needlessly more dangerous.

So you really picked the two Swedish legal models that have turned out to be a disaster in every way.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

If it is just consensual, they can hook up.

Not everybody is good-looking, charming, etc. enough for the hookup scene.

They can work on it. Or use one of the many toys that provide erotic stimulation while looking at goats on the interwebs.

Why should the government dictate the reason people engage in consensual sex?

But we are talking about contractual sex, which is different. Just like the government has no say if I help move my friend, but if he pays me to move him we have a contract and it is in the powers of the government to regulate such contracts. Now you know the difference between contractual sex and consensual sex.

Why is it that somebody can go to a bar, meet somebody, and have consensual sex, but if money is overtly exchanged, a crime has been committed?

Because it is regulated commerce.

Does that really make sense to you?

Yes.

And it makes even less sense when only one party to the transaction is criminalized.

What about drugs? The seller is penalized more than the buyer. Same with using a fake ID to buy booze.

 

[fromderinside]

What about drugs? The seller is penalized more than the buyer. Same with using a fake ID to buy booze.

I like the approach. Get the victimizer, spare the victim.

 

[Derec]

I like the approach. Get the victimizer, spare the victim.

Except, in general, a sex worker is not a 'victim' and her client is not a 'victimizer'.
By all means go after victimizers, but do not paint with a brush so broad you could paint the cross on this Swedish flag (life size) in two strokes:

 

[jonatha]

Immediately after prostitution became legalised (it's legal to sell, not buy) prostitutes formed a union.

Idly wondering where they keep their union membership cards when on the, er, clock

 

[Malintent]

That is too bad there were unforeseen consequences in these 'help the victim, punish the victimizer' models...at least according to one citizen.
It is the right philosophy, though, in my opinion.

- - - Updated - - -

Immediately after prostitution became legalised (it's legal to sell, not buy) prostitutes formed a union.

Idly wondering where they keep their union membership cards when on the, er, clock

did you typo that "L" in "clock"?

 

[Derec]

They can work on it.

What if they look like this?

Or use one of the many toys that provide erotic stimulation while looking at goats on the interwebs.

Why shouldn't I be allowed to secure services of a willing female? Why shouldn't a person be able to offer sexual services if they so choose? Why are you against people being able to make free choices as to what to do with their bodies.
And if sex work is banned, why not ban porn too? After all, making a porn video is a type of sex work too.
As to sex toys, they are fine and well, but that would be like saying (re your example below) that you should be allowed to rent a U-Haul truck but not any people to help you move. It makes no sense. It's government meddling into where it doesn't belong.

But we are talking about contractual sex, which is different. Just like the government has no say if I help move my friend, but if he pays me to move him we have a contract and it is in the powers of the government to regulate such contracts.

We are not talking about regulation, but prohibition. Should the government make it illegal for anybody to offer payment for help moving and throw you in jail if you do offer somebody money? Should police officers pose as people with pickup-trucks to entrap you into offering them money? Should only people with friends or family willing to help them move for free be able to have help moving?

Now you know the difference between contractual sex and consensual sex.

They are different concepts but with a large intersection in the Venn diagram. I.e. sex can definitely be both.

Because it is regulated commerce.

That would justify a certain level of regulation and not outright prohibition. However, one must beware harmful regulation that are designed to harass - strip clubs etc. are often subjected to that kind of regulation in the states.

Yes.

Why? It is highly authoritarian, illiberal and maternalistic. It is causing no good, and probably a lot of harm.
See what happened when Rhode Island accidentally legalized sex work.
When Rhode Island accidentally legalized prostitution, rape decreased sharply

What about drugs? The seller is penalized more than the buyer.

So should we penalize just the buyer and let the dealer go? A sex worker is really a seller of sexual services, so is more like a dealer than the buyer in the drug trade analogy.

 

[Don2 (Don1 Revised)]

wow, someone got triggered

 

[Derec]

wow, someone got triggered

 

[Nice Squirrel]

Why shouldn't I be allowed to secure services of a willing female?

As long as there is no money exchanged it is not the government's business.

Why shouldn't a person be able to offer sexual services if they so choose?

They can, but not in a contractual exchange.

Why are you against people being able to make free choices as to what to do with their bodies.

I am against a lot of choices with what people do to their bodies. There are many things we can do with our bodies that will have a negative effect on society. You often are against people using their bodies and have defended the right for cops to kill them for using their bodies. So we are in agreement. There are some things we do not want people to do with their bodies.

And if sex work is banned, why not ban porn too?

It is contractual and regulated by the government. I really don't see your point.

But we are talking about contractual sex, which is different. Just like the government has no say if I help move my friend, but if he pays me to move him we have a contract and it is in the powers of the government to regulate such contracts.

We are not talking about regulation, but prohibition. Should the government make it illegal for anybody to offer payment for help moving and throw you in jail if you do offer somebody money? Should police officers pose as people with pickup-trucks to entrap you into offering them money? Should only people with friends or family willing to help them move for free be able to have help moving?

You have missed the point that the government can regulate contracts. I am not getting into if they should or should not.

Now you know the difference between contractual sex and consensual sex.

They are different concepts but with a large intersection in the Venn diagram. I.e. sex can definitely be both.

Like eating, but government regulates what you can sell as food.

Because it is regulated commerce.

That would justify a certain level of regulation and not outright prohibition. However, one must beware harmful regulation that are designed to harass - strip clubs etc. are often subjected to that kind of regulation in the states.

Prohibition is regulation.

What about drugs? The seller is penalized more than the buyer.

So should we penalize just the buyer and let the dealer go? A sex worker is really a seller of sexual services, so is more like a dealer than the buyer in the drug trade analogy.

Oftentimes we are, Black users are arrested more than white dealers.

 

[Nice Squirrel]

What if they look like this?

Whatever floats your boat man...

 

[Frikki]

Not like myself. I have no desire to rape 13 years olds. I am also the wrong religion to get special treatment from Sweden.

Now engaging in consensual sex with sex workers, now that's a "crime" the Swedish prosecutors take very seriously. Unlike child rape by Muslim migrants.

You should have moved to Sweden since they are so lenient with immigrants that commit crimes.

Nice to see you are still obsessed. I think you are in need of a good lapdance, but oh wait, the gynocracy in Iceland banned those.

I am actually capable of getting a woman and I don´t need to rent a likely trafficing victim to get my rocks off. But back to immigrant criminals, how has your day been and what are your thoughts on your hero Milo being more or less ok with pedophilia?

 

[Frikki]

I like the approach. Get the victimizer, spare the victim.

Except, in general, a sex worker is not a 'victim' and her client is not a 'victimizer'.
By all means go after victimizers, but do not paint with a brush so broad you could paint the cross on this Swedish flag (life size) in two strokes:

Tens of thousands men women and children are trafficked in the US every year which makes it likely that you may have raped a slave sometime in your life. You have no way to ascertain if the prostitute that you rent is a slave, child slave or just loves to fuck men that are unable to get a woman without payment.
It is like with stolen goods, you may say that you did not know that the camera you bought from a guy on a street corner was stolen but the court will say that you should have suspected that it was.