Did Jesus exist? (Poll)

[Horatio Parker]

I'm agnostic on HJ, but I think the mythicists have the stronger argument.

So I guess that means I doubt he existed, but it's not that important a point to me.

 

[T.G.G. Moogly]

I also put none of the above because Bilby and I think alike. All fiction is inspired by actual events. That hardly makes a work historical.

 

[whollygoats]

"Kent" is a common enough surname; "Clark" is a common enough first name; And newspaper reporters were pretty numerous in US cities in the 1930s. So it would be foolhardy in the extreme to claim that there was no historical Clark Kent, reporter for a large newspaper in an American Metropolis.

However, assuming that we could, by dint of diligent research, establish that one or more such people really did exist, we would STILL be no closer to proving the existence of Superman. For that, we need evidence that at least one of those Clark Kents was more powerful than a locomotive; Faster than a speeding bullet; Or able to leap tall buildings in a single bound. Proving that one of them was Clark Joseph Kent, who had adoptive parents called Jonathan and Martha, and was raised in Kansas, despite making the similarity between the man and the story seem spookily close, does not in fact constitute evidence that bolsters any claim that Superman was a real person.

In the same way, any evidence that we might find for a person similar to the person described as 'Jesus' in the gospels, is not in any way evidence for a real messiah.

What makes Jesus the Christ different is not the Jesus; it's the Christ. And no amount of spookily Jesus-like biographies, records, or archaeological finds, no matter how compellingly similar to, or supportive of, the biographies usually touted for this character they might be, can demonstrate the existence of the Christ, for the exact same reason that no amount of Clark Kents can demonstrate the existence of Superman.

WHAT!?

You doubt the existence of 'Greasy Josh' the four-time winner of the warrior's challenge athletic competition? He even had three separate sponsors providing the oil for anointment during training. And he's going to come again....just you wait!

Has anybody here done an etymological study of the word 'christ'?

I asked and was told that the author of the 'genuine' Pauline epistles is the first known person to use the term 'christ' as a significator of a personal savior. Evidently, in the Greek-speaking world of the first century, 'christ' was used to reference an unguent, an external application of oil, the most familiar use in the Greek world being upon athletes in competition, who were regularly oiled up and even had sponsors to buy the oil to do so.

'Paul', screaming rants at Grecophonic gentiles outside synagogues in Greek cities, about some 'Greasy Josh', might well have been interpreted as a madman. All the local rubes could well have been asking why the athlete was crucified. It sounds like fodder for a Monty Python skit.

 

[Ramaraksha]

I am sure such a person existed - quite a lot of them claiming to speak for God thru the centuries - the miracles and magic that he performed? No way - that's just all made up. Folks, there is no magic, no miracle. Such ideas show that we humans are still weak - we still look for the easy way to get things done. Real life teaches us that if we want something we have to pay for it, work for it, Earn it! The weak and lazy want none of that - a twitch of the nose, just say abracadabra and get things done! Religious books pander to these people - X guy did magic, a miracle and presto things got done! Zero work! Just sit on your lazy butt and get things done! The weak and the lazy drool over such stories.

I always ask - what does one DO in Heaven? Is there any sort of work to be done? What work would the maker of this huge universe might have for us? Can anyone think of any? So Heaven is the dream home of the weak and lazy - just sit around doing nothing for eternity! How this makes any sort of sense in the 21st century or any century for that matter, baffles me

Heaven is a ponzi-scheme, a scam - amazing that they have been so successful with it

 

[remez]

Hi,

Mostly to satisfy my own curiosity about the views of other members of what to me is a new forum, I'd be interested to know what people think in relation to the above question.

In strict terms, the question is, 'do you think that the figure called Jesus existed?' This allows for cases where someone thinks the name itself was added later, but would allow for a figure who at least existed and did at least some of the things attributed to the figure given that name.

Feel free to vote and to post any additional comments.

This is not meant to contribute to the cases for and against, nor is it meant to be a place to discuss the cases in detail. There's another thread for that:

https://talkfreethought.org/showthr...rrier’s-“On-the-Historicity-of-Jesus”-now-out

If you comment, you may, optionally, choose to identify as an atheist, an agnostic or as a theist, in general terms.

Thanks,

RS

As a theist I had to choose none of the above.

 

[ruby sparks]

As a theist I had to choose none of the above.

Christian? If so.....odd choice, no? Just curious. Some sort of Docetic view? That 'he' wasn't what he seemed to be?

 

[remez]

As a theist I had to choose none of the above.

Christian? If so.....odd choice, no? Just curious.

Remember ...."before Abraham was, I am."

I know this might sound like an "I gottcha" kind of reply, but it's not. It's actually one of the main differences of our worldviews. He exists. He has always existed. By thinking I would think of him as past tense represents an error in your prespective of theism. It's an big old error that has been around a while.

 

[ruby sparks]

As a theist I had to choose none of the above.

Christian? If so.....odd choice, no? Just curious.

Remember ...."before Abraham was, I am."

I know this might sound like an "I gottcha" kind of reply, but it's not. It's actually one of the main differences of our worldviews. He exists. He has always existed. By thinking I would think of him as past tense represents an error in your prespective of theism. It's an big old error that has been around a while.

Ok gotcha now. No prob. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[whollygoats]

As a theist I had to choose none of the above.

Christian? If so.....odd choice, no? Just curious.

Remember ...."before Abraham was, I am."

I know this might sound like an "I gottcha" kind of reply, but it's not. It's actually one of the main differences of our worldviews. He exists. He has always existed. By thinking I would think of him as past tense represents an error in your prespective of theism. It's an big old error that has been around a while.

Sorry...but it is hooey.

 

[remez]

Remember ...."before Abraham was, I am."

I know this might sound like an "I gottcha" kind of reply, but it's not. It's actually one of the main differences of our worldviews. He exists. He has always existed. By thinking I would think of him as past tense represents an error in your prespective of theism. It's an big old error that has been around a while.

Sorry...but it is hooey.

What is?

 

[OLDMAN]

Ah, the periodic mythicist verses historical poll...

I'm in the "I think it's more likely, to some degree or other, that he likely existed than not" camp. There is probably less Jesus reality in the NT than there was William Wallace reality in the Braveheart movie; and sandwiched between probably more Jesus reality, than there is Jason reality in Jason and the Golden Fleece.

As my profile says: functional atheist; theoretical agnostic

Yeah, I'm in this camp too...in part because of all the mistakes they made when they wrote the story. It really parallels the Santa Claus myth. If it was that St. Nick left something in the knickers of ladies of the night, how does that make Santa of the North Pole a real story?

 

[whollygoats]

Remember ...."before Abraham was, I am."

I know this might sound like an "I gottcha" kind of reply, but it's not. It's actually one of the main differences of our worldviews. He exists. He has always existed. By thinking I would think of him as past tense represents an error in your prespective of theism. It's an big old error that has been around a while.

Sorry...but it is hooey.

What is?

That 'He exists'....that 'He has always existed.'

That's hooey.

From my perspective, he has only ever existed as somebody's imaginary friend and probably came in to being as such at some indeterminate point in the past.

 

[Elixir]

What is?

That 'He exists'....that 'He has always existed.'

That's hooey.

From my perspective, he has only ever existed as somebody's imaginary friend and probably came in to being as such at some indeterminate point in the past.

I'd ask who "he" is.
Some generic creator-god? The Christian version? Islam version? Judaic version? Hindu gods? Greek gods?
Follow-up questions:
Why do ALL religions claim to be the "one true religion"?
Why are more than 90% of religious people into the religion they were raised in?
What are the chances that, out of the literally THOUSANDS of religions, you picked the "one true" one?
What are the chances that most religious people are correct about all the other religions being "false"?*


* That's about the ONLY thing I think they all have correct - everyone else's religion is false, and so is yours.

 

[whollygoats]

Well, yeah. D'oh.

 

[remez]

What is?

That 'He exists'....that 'He has always existed.'

That's hooey.

From my perspective, he has only ever existed as somebody's imaginary friend and probably came in to being as such at some indeterminate point in the past.

Fine. I was not trying to convince you of theism.

I was just addressing Ruby as to why I, a theist, had to choose nota.

 

[remez]

What is?

That 'He exists'....that 'He has always existed.'

That's hooey.

From my perspective, he has only ever existed as somebody's imaginary friend and probably came in to being as such at some indeterminate point in the past.

I'd ask who "he" is.
Some generic creator-god? The Christian version? Islam version? Judaic version? Hindu gods? Greek gods?
Follow-up questions:
Why do ALL religions claim to be the "one true religion"?
Why are more than 90% of religious people into the religion they were raised in?
What are the chances that, out of the literally THOUSANDS of religions, you picked the "one true" one?
What are the chances that most religious people are correct about all the other religions being "false"?*


* That's about the ONLY thing I think they all have correct - everyone else's religion is false, and so is yours.

Can whollygoats and I ......both..... be correct?

 

[ruby sparks]

I know I'm not in charge here and you guys can do what you want, but I am sort of hoping that if you want to discuss the merits and demerits of theistic beliefs versus atheistic ones, that you might......go elsewhere than in a poll thread not intended to be about that?

If you did, I might even join in.

Or......carry on. As you were. Don't let me interrupt.

 

[whollygoats]

I know I'm not in charge here and you guys can do what you want, but I am sort of hoping that if you want to discuss the merits and demerits of theistic beliefs versus atheistic ones, that you might......go elsewhere than in a poll thread not intended to be about that?

If you did, I might even join in.

Or......carry on. As you were. Don't let me interrupt.

It's a poll...Here, we're supposed to talk about the poll?

Man, do we need talking heads, too?

 

[none]

Hi,

Mostly to satisfy my own curiosity about the views of other members of what to me is a new forum, I'd be interested to know what people think in relation to the above question.

In strict terms, the question is, 'do you think that the figure called Jesus existed?' This allows for cases where someone thinks the name itself was added later, but would allow for a figure who at least existed and did at least some of the things attributed to the figure given that name.

Feel free to vote and to post any additional comments.

This is not meant to contribute to the cases for and against, nor is it meant to be a place to discuss the cases in detail. There's another thread for that:

https://talkfreethought.org/showthr...rrier’s-“On-the-Historicity-of-Jesus”-now-out

If you comment, you may, optionally, choose to identify as an atheist, an agnostic or as a theist, in general terms.

Thanks,

RS

who is Jesus??

 

[Tom Sawyer]

Well, there was apparently a soldier who was the inspiration for the Rambo character. So, Jesus is real in the same way that Rambo is real.