Do we ALL have a "right to die"?

[Unknown Soldier]

We've all heard the horror stories of somebody who may be dying who is in terrible pain from some illness or injury and is pleading for the mercy of a quick and easy death. Many of us agree that such a person would benefit from the services of a physician who would assist that unfortunate person in a relatively peaceful suicide. We see that sick person as having a right to die, and granting that person a "final exit" is to honor that person's wish to live no longer. It is the moral thing to do!

While I understand the hardship and futility of knowing that a friend or family member is in such a terrible situation, one question I've never received an answer to is this one: If we have the right to die, then do we all have the right to die? Can anybody have a physician assist them to take their own life, or only those who are sick or injured, disabled or elderly?

Based on my discussions about this issue, the tacit answer appears to be no, if a person is not sick or injured, disabled or elderly, then there is no right to die, and no doctor dares to help that person commit suicide. So if, say, a young, handsome, and strong man is despondent over a divorce and cannot bear to live, we should do what we can to help him to live on. Suicide is out of the question; he's too good to let go of.

So if you don't see my point, then let me spell it out for you: For many of us, physician assisted suicide is a means by which we can rid the world of people we do not value. That's why those of us we value have no "right" to die.

 

[Shadowy Man]

The question I have is can one have the right to die but others not be required to help? If a doctor is not allowed to assist you in suicide does that necessarily mean you have no right to suicide? Or is that the definition of “right” in this context?

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

"For many of us, physician assisted suicide is a means by which we can rid the world of people we do not value."

This is a very bad rationaliztion designed to deny a terminally ill, suffering person a right to die with dignity painlessly. Thanks to wide spread systematic racism, lack of proper prenatal care for poor women of color means a high death rate for these women. Those who have been opposing Physician Assisted Suicide, religious right wingers for the most part have not cared about that.

 

[Elixir]

The question I have is can one have the right to die but others not be required to help? If a doctor is not allowed to assist you in suicide does that necessarily mean you have no right to suicide? Or is that the definition of “right” in this context?

Right. The question seems to be “under what circumstances may a person legally assist in another’s suicide?”
That question can be answered by looking at States’ relevant statutes.
Since it’s impossible to punish a person for committing suicide, it’s silly to debate its llegality.

 

[Shadowy Man]

The question I have is can one have the right to die but others not be required to help? If a doctor is not allowed to assist you in suicide does that necessarily mean you have no right to suicide? Or is that the definition of “right” in this context?

Right. The question seems to be “under what circumstances may a person legally assist in another’s suicide?”
That question can be answered by looking at States’ relevant statutes.
Since it’s impossible to punish a person for committing suicide, it’s silly to debate its llegality.

Sure. But could attempted suicide be a crime?

 

[Unknown Soldier]

The question I have is can one have the right to die but others not be required to help? If a doctor is not allowed to assist you in suicide does that necessarily mean you have no right to suicide? Or is that the definition of “right” in this context?

Can you answer my question first? If we have the right to die, then do we all have the right to die? Can anybody have a physician assist them to take their own life, or only those who are sick or injured, disabled or elderly?

 

[Unknown Soldier]

This is a very bad rationaliztion designed to deny a terminally ill, suffering person a right to die with dignity painlessly.

Why not allow people who are not terminally ill or suffering physically a right to die with dignity painlessly?

 

[bilby]

The question I have is can one have the right to die but others not be required to help? If a doctor is not allowed to assist you in suicide does that necessarily mean you have no right to suicide? Or is that the definition of “right” in this context?

Right. The question seems to be “under what circumstances may a person legally assist in another’s suicide?”
That question can be answered by looking at States’ relevant statutes.
Since it’s impossible to punish a person for committing suicide, it’s silly to debate its llegality.

Sure. But could attempted suicide be a crime?

Of course it could. It is, or has been, in many jurisdictions at various times.

 

[bilby]

This is a very bad rationaliztion designed to deny a terminally ill, suffering person a right to die with dignity painlessly.

Why not allow people who are not terminally ill or suffering physically a right to die with dignity painlessly?

Well, according to Roman Catholic doctrine, life is sacred, and suffering is noble and virtuous.

Other religions have similar bases for similarly opposing the right to die, and similarly use the specious argument that if people had the right to die, it could be abused to kill people who didn't want to die, and so it shouldn't be permitted.

This argument is exactly as logically compelling as the argument that we shouldn't allow people to learn to drive a car, because if someone knows how to drive, they might abuse that knowledge to go ram-raiding. But it is pointless to expect logical reasoning from religious zealots.

 

[Cheerful Charlie]

This is a very bad rationaliztion designed to deny a terminally ill, suffering person a right to die with dignity painlessly.

Why not allow people who are not terminally ill or suffering physically a right to die with dignity painlessly?

In fact people do this all the time. Overdosing on drugs, suicide by gunshot. Making that against the law never stopped anyone. A bed ridden cancer patient dying in great pain and suffering is a far different situation. That is none of your business.

 

[bilby]

Can anybody have a physician assist them to take their own life, or only those who are sick or injured, disabled or elderly?

Where I live, only the terminally ill can, starting in a few weeks time.

According to section 10 (1) of the Voluntary Assisted Dying Act 2021, from 1 January 2023,

10 (1) A person is eligible for access to voluntary assisted dying if—

(a) the person has been diagnosed with a disease, illness or medical condition that—​

(i) is advanced, progressive and will cause death; and​

(ii) is expected to cause death within 12 months; and​

(iii) is causing suffering that the person considers to be intolerable; and​

(b) the person has decision-making capacity in relation to voluntary assisted dying; and​

(c) the person is acting voluntarily and without coercion; and​

(d) the person is at least 18 years of age​

​

In addition to those restrictions, subsection (e) of section 10 (1) of the Act requires that persons wishing to access voluntary assisted dying must have lived in Australia for at least three years, and in Queensland for at least a year.

Under the Act, deaths via voluntary assisted dying are legally not suicide, and a person who dies under the terms of the Act "is taken to have died from the disease, illness or medical condition mentioned in section 10(1)(a) from which the person suffered". This is to ensure that life insurance payouts etc. are not adversely impacted by the person's choice to die under these circumstances.

More information about this process can be found at the Department of Health website:

https://www.health.qld.gov.au/system-governance/legislation/voluntary-assisted-dying-act

Of course, nothing stops a person who is not suffering from an eligible condition under section 10(1) of the Act from killing themselves without assistance from a physician; But such deaths are recorded as suicide, which might have financial implications for their surviving dependents, who would be unable to claim on any life insurance policy, for example.

 

[Shadowy Man]

The question I have is can one have the right to die but others not be required to help? If a doctor is not allowed to assist you in suicide does that necessarily mean you have no right to suicide? Or is that the definition of “right” in this context?

Can you answer my question first? If we have the right to die, then do we all have the right to die? Can anybody have a physician assist them to take their own life, or only those who are sick or injured, disabled or elderly?

I, personally, think we should all have the right to die. If we have a right to life then we have the right to decide what to do with that life. That doesn't mean that a physician has the right to help you. That's why I was asking if there's a real distinction there.

 

[bilby]

I am slightly amused by the phrase "taking your own life" that is often used as a euphemism for killing yourself; It does rather suggest that your life is not your own, and that suicide is the theft of that life (presumably from God, who owns your sorry arse outright).

 

[steve_bank]

Good topic.

I think we all have a right to choose to die.

One argument is the slippery slope. Make suicide socially acceptable and someone having a bad day kills him or her self.

Socrates is believed to have committed suicide when he could have just went away. There is a famous picture of a monk in the VN war pirimng gas on himself and setting himself on fire. I think the Stoics belive suicdewas an accetpable way out of an untenable situation. Certainly the Romans.

Under certain conditions in old Japan suicide was considered honorable even mandatory under certain conditions.

I see it as the same argument for abortion rights, does a woman control her body? Do we all control our body?

Legally no one can force medical treatment on us. If we are diagnosed with a condition which requires meds to live, we can refuse and die.

When I ended up in the hospital for heart failure I was told if I chose they would not give me treatment.

Here in Seattle dealing with the homeless and mentally ill is running up against a rights issue. Homeless can not be compelled to go into housing and can stay out on the street facing cold weather and assult or murder. Mnetally ill on the street can not be complled to netr treatment or take meds.

Given how we view individual rights in general I don;t see how an adult choosing suicide is any different than any of our self destructive rights.

We can choose to drink and smoke taobacco heavily knowing the liklhood of lomg term effects. A slow motion suicide.

Now drugs are becoming normalized.

I do not see how a right to suicide can be singled out above all the allowable self destructive ways people live.

 

[Elixir]

The question I have is can one have the right to die but others not be required to help? If a doctor is not allowed to assist you in suicide does that necessarily mean you have no right to suicide? Or is that the definition of “right” in this context?

Right. The question seems to be “under what circumstances may a person legally assist in another’s suicide?”
That question can be answered by looking at States’ relevant statutes.
Since it’s impossible to punish a person for committing suicide, it’s silly to debate its llegality.

Sure. But could attempted suicide be a crime?

Of course it could. It is, or has been, in many jurisdictions at various times.

It should be a capital offense.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

The question I have is can one have the right to die but others not be required to help? If a doctor is not allowed to assist you in suicide does that necessarily mean you have no right to suicide? Or is that the definition of “right” in this context?

Can you answer my question first? If we have the right to die, then do we all have the right to die? Can anybody have a physician assist them to take their own life, or only those who are sick or injured, disabled or elderly?

I, personally, think we should all have the right to die.

That's a very strange right to have. It's like saying we have the right to be shot, stabbed, poisoned, or flung off of a cliff. If rights are understood to be what society has an obligation to provide to its members, then we normally think of police and fire protection, medical care, shelter, and whatever serves to preserve a person's life. The right to die is evidently an obligation a society has to destroy the life of one of its members.

If we have a right to life then we have the right to decide what to do with that life.

You seem to be neglecting the rights of others here. Our rights end where the rights of others begin. So what we decide to do with our own lives should be limited by how those decisions affect others. In the case of suicide, would you want somebody to do so by shooting himself near where you and your family are? Would you want kids to witness that suicide?

That doesn't mean that a physician has the right to help you. That's why I was asking if there's a real distinction there.

No, I don't see how a physician has a right to help somebody to commit suicide. I suppose that assuming physician-assisted suicide is morally right, then the suicidal person should make a mutual agreement with a doctor willing to assist that person in ending that person's right.

The question I have is can one have the right to die but others not be required to help?

Obviously not, and that's one reason why the right to die is such a crazy idea. If we have the right to die, then yes, others are obligated to at least allow us to do so. So if a person is on the ledge of a tall building, then we must stand by while that person jumps and clean up the mess later!

If a doctor is not allowed to assist you in suicide does that necessarily mean you have no right to suicide? Or is that the definition of “right” in this context?

No, that means that you don't want that particular doctor to assist you in your suicide. But yes, if you have a right to die via the medical community, then somebody must do it!

Again, the right to die is a crazy idea that if properly scrutinized, is exposed for the danger that it is.

 

[steve_bank]

Okay Soldier. If it is about collective rights vs individual and cosequences do we have the right to lead an unhealthy life when iit affects others?s society as a whole?

Drugs, alchohol. tobacco, and diet are major drivers of health care costs.

 

[Shadowy Man]

If you have no right to die then society can force you to live.

No, I wouldn’t want someone shooting themselves near me or my children. But that doesnt mean they have no right to Die. It just means that that right like all the other have their limitations. We have the right to free speech but that right is not absolute.

We likely have different concepts of what “right” means.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

"For many of us, physician assisted suicide is a means by which we can rid the world of people we do not value."

This is a very bad rationaliztion...

It's a fact of history that euthanasia, at least, has been used in exactly the way I describe. You may wish to learn about Germany's T4 program.

...designed to deny a terminally ill, suffering person a right to die with dignity painlessly.

That sounds nice, but in the real world, it hasn't always worked out that way. I say let the terminally ill speak for themselves if they can. Many of them want to live with dignity painlessly.

Thanks to wide spread systematic racism, lack of proper prenatal care for poor women of color means a high death rate for these women.

Is euthanasia supposed to decrease that rate of death??? I don't think I've heard that argument for euthanasia before. Have you told minority women that you want to grant them the right to die?

Those who have been opposing Physician Assisted Suicide, religious right wingers for the most part have not cared about that.

Actually, one of the most outspoken groups opposing physician assisted suicide are the disability rights groups. It's ironic that they don't want your death for them considering that they are supposed to be the beneficiaries. Maybe they know better.

 

[Elixir]

I do not see how a right to suicide can be singled out above all the allowable self destructive ways people live.

The first time I heard the term ‘substance abuse’ I thought “if you drop a brick on your foot, is that substance abuse? Everything is substance, so does this distinguish it from say energy abuse?”