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Early human slavery was NECESSARY for human progress

Syed

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.early human slavery was NECESSARY for human progress

early human did not invented money and no one work for other people

so without man power human could not make progress

all past GREAT civilization built on slave workers

slavery responsible for civilizing human

allah did NOT condemn slavery because of that reason but make a way to abolish slavery by freeing them

since allah is all knowing, he knows that human slavery is responsible for civilizing human, so allah cant condemn something that civilized human

GOD IS GREAT
 

Keith&Co.

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.early human slavery was NECESSARY for human progress
How early?
early human did not invented money and no one work for other people
Then why didn't Allah provide a monetary system? And why did slavery persist after 'money' was invented?
so without man power human could not make progress
Slavery is not progress.
all past GREAT civilization built on slave workers
Not the Egyptians.
Slavery responsible for civilizing human
At best your argument is that slavery was a necessary step toward civilizing people.
But owning people is not civilized.
allah did NOT condemn slavery because of that reason but make a way to abolish slavery by freeing them
Wouldn't it have been better for him to establish a fiscal model before slavery, a civilized alternative?
since allah is all knowing, he knows that human slavery is responsible for civilizing human, so allah cant condemn something that civilized human
If Allah is all knowing, but let people use slavery when there were alternatives, then he must have preferred slavery to anything else.
GOD IS GREAT
Your god, you say, USED slavery to reach a goal. Your God is a dick.
















And how did people buy slaves if they didn't have a concept of money....?
 

Keith&Co.

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And how did people buy slaves if they didn't have a concept of money....?
by bullying neighbors

lol
LOL?
Skipping completely over the fact that your theory throws your sadistic jackass of a deity under the bus?

LOL indeed, Syed. LOL, indeed.

i do not thought they were good points
Why not? God knew what money was, right? All-knowing does that.
God prefers a system of employment, with money, over slavery, right?
God COULD have just sat someone down and explained what money was, how to mint it, how to value it, why it was better than barter, set up either the same fiscal standard for the entire world or established individual moneys and an exchange rate. He's all-powerful, right? Nothing would stop him from doing this... Except God.

If the world was not as an ALL POWERFUL ALL KNOWING GOD would wish it to be, he has only himself to blame.

So if slavery was the only way to civilize humans, and your God wanted civilized humans, then he was forced to use slavery, sure. But then, that makes civilizing humanity more powerful than God. If there was another way to civilize humans, and God didn't use it, he made a choice. So for some reason slavery met your god's approval.

SO which is it, Syed? God could NOT have civilized us without slavery, or he could have, but chose slavery?

You have to pick one, Syed.
God is not all powerful,
Or god is a dick?
 

Valjean

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What's so great about progress or civilization? Did they make people more happy?

human progress differentiate between human and animals
Humans lived for a million years without progress. They were still human.
Why is our civilized, 'non-animal' status a good thing?
 

Keith&Co.

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What's so great about progress or civilization? Did they make people more happy?

human progress differentiate between human and animals
Humans lived for a million years without progress. They were still human.
Why is our civilized, 'non-animal' status a good thing?
So we can establish long-term residency in areas with cultivated food, metal ores, learn to make metal, fashion swords then behead people to win arguments about whether or not gods exist that want us to be civilized.
 

Tom Sawyer

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It is a valid argument that slavery helped society advance. If resources of a society are freed up from menial labour by having other do it for them without having to expend much in the way of resources to get that work done, it allows for more of a development of a leisure class to engage in the intellectual pursuits that lead to advances. Slavery was an effective way to make that happen.

Of course, that's completely moot if the advancement of society is influenced by an omnipotent god who can give all the resources necessary for this without any corresponding trade-offs like enslaving people. So, I agree with Syed that his analysis of early civilizations points to the nonexistence of any type of god. That's one more theist whom we've converted to atheism. Welcome to the fold, Syed! It's good to have you here.
 

Keith&Co.

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And how did people buy slaves if they didn't have a concept of money....?
by bullying neighbors

lol
I

How can one bully thy neighbor and love him at the same time? Is this possible?
It's a long-term love. Enslave them now, beat a few until they get the idea, and in a few thousand years, Allah will get around to freeing their great-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-g-grandchildren.



Except for the granddaughters, of course.
 

braces_for_impact

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.early human slavery was NECESSARY for human progress

early human did not invented money and no one work for other people

so without man power human could not make progress

all past GREAT civilization built on slave workers

slavery responsible for civilizing human

allah did NOT condemn slavery because of that reason but make a way to abolish slavery by freeing them

since allah is all knowing, he knows that human slavery is responsible for civilizing human, so allah cant condemn something that civilized human

GOD IS GREAT

 

doubtingt

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It is a valid argument that slavery helped society advance. If resources of a society are freed up from menial labour by having other do it for them without having to expend much in the way of resources to get that work done, it allows for more of a development of a leisure class to engage in the intellectual pursuits that lead to advances. Slavery was an effective way to make that happen.

I've long thought along these lines. Intellectual and tech progress depends upon a concentrations of resources that allow the time and money needed to conduct the kind of long-term basic science that produces real leaps forward in our thinking. Slavery was a major method of doing this. Societies without equality and democracy in which most of the fruits of labor get forcibly funneled to the top are just weak forms of slavery/servitude. Fortunately (but probably not coincidentally) for civilization, just as slavery and authoritarian inequality came to be viewed as morally unacceptable, methods of acquiring and using fossil fuels took off and provided relatively cheap sources of energy and energy does "work" and vastly increases the productivity of labor. This allowed for production on massive scales, which allowed workers to live a higher quality of life while still funnelling massive wealth into concentrations either in the pockets of industrialist philanthropists who donated to intellectual, non-profit pursuits and via government taxation which allowed governments to fund Universities and research institutes.
 

dystopian

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It is a valid argument that slavery helped society advance. If resources of a society are freed up from menial labour by having other do it for them without having to expend much in the way of resources to get that work done, it allows for more of a development of a leisure class to engage in the intellectual pursuits that lead to advances. Slavery was an effective way to make that happen.

In theory, sure. I rather doubt it worked that way in practice however. First of all; there has never been a 'leisure class' that drives intellectual progress. By and large, intellectual progress was made possible through specialization. Urbanization both increased leisure time, and enabled the rise of a class of people whose primary concern were pursuits of the mind. This class was hardly a 'leisure class' though; they usually still had to support themselves through their activities unless they were lucky enough to be hired on by smarter members of the 'leisure class' (ie; the rulers who got to reap the rewards of everyone else's hard work) you mentioned. I don't think there's ever been a society where slavery allowed sufficiently large enough numbers of people to become part of a so called 'leisure class' in order for that to have been a primary contributor to mental progress. The existence of a slave population does not yield a uniform decrease in labor elsewhere; the difference tends to be hyper-concentrated, leading to a handful of extremely wealthy slave-owners who are not particularly interested in scientific progress (in fact, they have a vested interest in being opposed to any scientific development that might result in efficient means of production other than slaves, unless they have enough foresight to take advantage which is historically rare).

We should not make the mistake of thinking that just because there are historical examples of ancient slave-owning philosophers and what not, that therefore slavery had a primary role to play in progress as a whole. I think on the balance, the efforts of say the average blacksmith to improve his craft's efficiency led to more overall technological and scientific progress than the mental pursuits of the average slave owner.

Now, that said, slavery *did* create and concentrate large quantities of wealth into a limited number of hands, and despite what I've said above, these hands did often become patrons to philosophers, scientists, inventors, and so on. So in that sense, one could argue that slavery contributed to scientific progress. But then you could say that about anything that produces wealth, so I don't think that's particularly fair.
 

Tom Sawyer

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Now, that said, slavery *did* create and concentrate large quantities of wealth into a limited number of hands, and despite what I've said above, these hands did often become patrons to philosophers, scientists, inventors, and so on. So in that sense, one could argue that slavery contributed to scientific progress. But then you could say that about anything that produces wealth, so I don't think that's particularly fair.

How is it not fair? Many things that produce wealth contribute, both directly and indirectly, to scientific progress. Slavery can be one of those things.

That doesn't mean that slavery is either moral or justified, but simply that it's one of the tools which allows this to happen and, in the past, there have been societies which have used it in that way.
 

Syed

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And how did people buy slaves if they didn't have a concept of money....?
by bullying neighbors

lol
LOL?
Skipping completely over the fact that your theory throws your sadistic jackass of a deity under the bus?

LOL indeed, Syed. LOL, indeed.

i do not thought they were good points
Why not? God knew what money was, right? All-knowing does that.
God prefers a system of employment, with money, over slavery, right?
God COULD have just sat someone down and explained what money was, how to mint it, how to value it, why it was better than barter, set up either the same fiscal standard for the entire world or established individual moneys and an exchange rate. He's all-powerful, right? Nothing would stop him from doing this... Except God.

If the world was not as an ALL POWERFUL ALL KNOWING GOD would wish it to be, he has only himself to blame.

So if slavery was the only way to civilize humans, and your God wanted civilized humans, then he was forced to use slavery, sure. But then, that makes civilizing humanity more powerful than God. If there was another way to civilize humans, and God didn't use it, he made a choice. So for some reason slavery met your god's approval.

SO which is it, Syed? God could NOT have civilized us without slavery, or he could have, but chose slavery?

You have to pick one, Syed.
God is not all powerful,
Or god is a dick?

explain to me how would atheist civilize human without slavery?
 

Syed

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Syed

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It is a valid argument that slavery helped society advance. If resources of a society are freed up from menial labour by having other do it for them without having to expend much in the way of resources to get that work done, it allows for more of a development of a leisure class to engage in the intellectual pursuits that lead to advances. Slavery was an effective way to make that happen.

Of course, that's completely moot if the advancement of society is influenced by an omnipotent god who can give all the resources necessary for this without any corresponding trade-offs like enslaving people. So, I agree with Syed that his analysis of early civilizations points to the nonexistence of any type of god. That's one more theist whom we've converted to atheism. Welcome to the fold, Syed! It's good to have you here.

god already provided necessary resources on earth
 

Mageth

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explain to me how would atheist civilize human without slavery?

Easy. Pay people for their work, and not own them!

Once again, getting rid of slavery is civilizing humans.

- - - Updated - - -

do you like to be living with animals?

Assuming you're referring only to non-human animals: Sure, I love my cat and my dogs, and do like living with them.

- - - Updated - - -

It is a valid argument that slavery helped society advance. If resources of a society are freed up from menial labour by having other do it for them without having to expend much in the way of resources to get that work done, it allows for more of a development of a leisure class to engage in the intellectual pursuits that lead to advances. Slavery was an effective way to make that happen.

Of course, that's completely moot if the advancement of society is influenced by an omnipotent god who can give all the resources necessary for this without any corresponding trade-offs like enslaving people. So, I agree with Syed that his analysis of early civilizations points to the nonexistence of any type of god. That's one more theist whom we've converted to atheism. Welcome to the fold, Syed! It's good to have you here.

god already provided necessary resources on earth

Including slave labor, apparently.
 

Bronzeage

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explain to me how would atheist civilize human without slavery?

You created threads of a similar nature on the old site and received the same predictable replies. They were predictable because there are a limited number of correct answers to any question.

Here is a question for you. Imagine you and I are alive, sometime around 3000 year ago. Would you consent to be my slave, if I assured you it would help the progress of civilization. If you did not consent and I forced you into slavery, along with your family and any future children, would the idea of helping to build civilization be a comfort to you?
 

sdelsolray

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.early human slavery was NECESSARY for human progress

early human did not invented money and no one work for other people

so without man power human could not make progress

all past GREAT civilization built on slave workers

slavery responsible for civilizing human

allah did NOT condemn slavery because of that reason but make a way to abolish slavery by freeing them

since allah is all knowing, he knows that human slavery is responsible for civilizing human, so allah cant condemn something that civilized human

GOD IS GREAT

More mere assertions from a master of mere assertions.

Your particular god, I believe you call him Allah, is as little shit. I have evidence.
 

jonJ

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since allah is all knowing, he knows that human slavery is responsible for civilizing human, so allah cant condemn something that civilized human

GOD IS GREAT

But not great enough to come up with a way of maintaining civilisation without slavery, apparently. Still, humans can do that, so

HUMANS ARE GREATER THAN GOD
 

Syed

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Syed

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explain to me how would atheist civilize human without slavery?

You created threads of a similar nature on the old site and received the same predictable replies. They were predictable because there are a limited number of correct answers to any question.

Here is a question for you. Imagine you and I are alive, sometime around 3000 year ago. Would you consent to be my slave, if I assured you it would help the progress of civilization. If you did not consent and I forced you into slavery, along with your family and any future children, would the idea of helping to build civilization be a comfort to you?
if you were early human and you were stronger bully then me and you needed a labor to built your home , i will be forced to consent to your demand
 

Syed

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.early human slavery was NECESSARY for human progress

early human did not invented money and no one work for other people

so without man power human could not make progress

all past GREAT civilization built on slave workers

slavery responsible for civilizing human

allah did NOT condemn slavery because of that reason but make a way to abolish slavery by freeing them

since allah is all knowing, he knows that human slavery is responsible for civilizing human, so allah cant condemn something that civilized human

GOD IS GREAT

More mere assertions from a master of mere assertions.

Your particular god, I believe you call him Allah, is as little shit. I have evidence.

lol
 

Syed

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since allah is all knowing, he knows that human slavery is responsible for civilizing human, so allah cant condemn something that civilized human

GOD IS GREAT

But not great enough to come up with a way of maintaining civilisation without slavery, apparently. Still, humans can do that, so

HUMANS ARE GREATER THAN GOD

could you NOW built civilization without slave like past great civilization?
 

The Paul

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.early human slavery was NECESSARY for human progress

early human did not invented money and no one work for other people

so without man power human could not make progress

all past GREAT civilization built on slave workers

slavery responsible for civilizing human

allah did NOT condemn slavery because of that reason but make a way to abolish slavery by freeing them

since allah is all knowing, he knows that human slavery is responsible for civilizing human, so allah cant condemn something that civilized human

GOD IS GREAT

I just want you to know what my take home message is on this post, Syed. I want you to know what you've said to me.

You've reaffirmed for me that religion is evil. It can suspend people's logical thinking and moral sense to an almost unlimited degree. It can suspend them to such an extreme degree that they say things as disgusting as your opening post.
 

Keith&Co.

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SO which is it, Syed? God could NOT have civilized us without slavery, or he could have, but chose slavery?

You have to pick one, Syed.
God is not all powerful,
Or god is a dick?

explain to me how would atheist civilize human without slavery?
Explain to my why you're unwilling to make the choice? the logical consequence of your claims is that either god chose not to teach people an alternative to slavery or he was unable to civilize people without slavery.
Either he is NOT all-powerful,
or he's a dick.
Pick one or explain why neither answer is correct, Syed, without turning this upon the atheists.
It's your claim that God was either forced to use slavery or it's a good thing in and of itself.
Defend your claim without deflecting.

If you dare, mwah. And ha.
 

Cheerful Charlie

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.early human slavery was NECESSARY for human progress


early human did not invented money and no one work for other people

so without man power human could not make progress

all past GREAT civilization built on slave workers

slavery responsible for civilizing human

allah did NOT condemn slavery because of that reason but make a way to abolish slavery by freeing them

since allah is all knowing, he knows that human slavery is responsible for civilizing human, so allah cant condemn something that civilized human

GOD IS GREAT

So, why didn't the magic sky pixie explain money to everybody? Allah doesn't exist so he can't explain anything.
 

Syed

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.early human slavery was NECESSARY for human progress

early human did not invented money and no one work for other people

so without man power human could not make progress

all past GREAT civilization built on slave workers

slavery responsible for civilizing human

allah did NOT condemn slavery because of that reason but make a way to abolish slavery by freeing them

since allah is all knowing, he knows that human slavery is responsible for civilizing human, so allah cant condemn something that civilized human

GOD IS GREAT

I just want you to know what my take home message is on this post, Syed. I want you to know what you've said to me.

You've reaffirmed for me that religion is evil. It can suspend people's logical thinking and moral sense to an almost unlimited degree. It can suspend them to such an extreme degree that they say things as disgusting as your opening post.
lol
 

Syed

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SO which is it, Syed? God could NOT have civilized us without slavery, or he could have, but chose slavery?

You have to pick one, Syed.
God is not all powerful,
Or god is a dick?

explain to me how would atheist civilize human without slavery?
Explain to my why you're unwilling to make the choice? the logical consequence of your claims is that either god chose not to teach people an alternative to slavery or he was unable to civilize people without slavery.
Either he is NOT all-powerful,
or he's a dick.
Pick one or explain why neither answer is correct, Syed, without turning this upon the atheists.
It's your claim that God was either forced to use slavery or it's a good thing in and of itself.
Defend your claim without deflecting.

If you dare, mwah. And ha.

god is NOT a baby sitter to tell you everything

- - - Updated - - -

.early human slavery was NECESSARY for human progress


early human did not invented money and no one work for other people

so without man power human could not make progress

all past GREAT civilization built on slave workers

slavery responsible for civilizing human

allah did NOT condemn slavery because of that reason but make a way to abolish slavery by freeing them

since allah is all knowing, he knows that human slavery is responsible for civilizing human, so allah cant condemn something that civilized human

GOD IS GREAT

So, why didn't the magic sky pixie explain money to everybody? Allah doesn't exist so he can't explain anything.

he did but you dont remembered
 

Keith&Co.

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god is NOT a baby sitter to tell you everything
He doesn't have to tell us everything, Syed. He could have told us JUST enough to make a civilization without slavery.
Why didn't he? And why doesn't the fact that he didn't prevent slavery make him a dick?
I think it makes him a dick.

Or a douche, maybe. Could be either.

But anyway: Your bare assertion is that slavery was necessary to civilize humanity and God wanted civilized humanity.
So god used slavery to reach a goal.
Right?
 

atrib

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.early human slavery was NECESSARY for human progress

early human did not invented money and no one work for other people

so without man power human could not make progress

all past GREAT civilization built on slave workers

slavery responsible for civilizing human

allah did NOT condemn slavery because of that reason but make a way to abolish slavery by freeing them

since allah is all knowing, he knows that human slavery is responsible for civilizing human, so allah cant condemn something that civilized human

GOD IS GREAT

This is bullshit. You have asserted this absurd idea in the past and have had the shit kicked out of your arguments. I know six year old children who understand the world better and are more competent at framing their arguments. Stop embarrassing yourself.
 

jonJ

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could you NOW built civilization without slave like past great civilization?

What does this have to do with the fact that humans NOW can do what your God -- according to you -- could not? So...

HUMANS (NOW) ARE GREATER THAN GOD
 

Perspicuo

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After the domestication of horses, cattle and dogs, slavery is unnecessary. The Qur'an was written way after slavery served its purpose. Therefore, the Qur'an is reactionary.

Slavery for the past few millennia only serves to make and keep some people rich and powerful. It is a form of exploitation and is on par with usury. Usury is unethical because it is a form of robbery and of slavery (you work for the lender instead of for yourself).

When we say we fight for social justice (I include Christians and Muslims) we are working against practical slavery (subtle form of slavery as compared to the overt kind). So if the Qur'an supports both social justice and slavery, the Qur'an contradicts itself.
 

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fun with "logic"...

Early human paganism was NECESSARY for human progress.

The first famous Greek, Chinese, Sumerian, and Roman philosophers and story tellers were pagan.

All first GREAT civilizations were built within paganism.

Paganism is responsible for civilizing humans.

The Pagan Pantheon did NOT condemn the human faith in them, but freed them to think and develop great empires

Since the Pantheon is all knowing, they know that they are responsible for civilizing human.

The PANTHEON IS GREAT
 

Bronzeage

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explain to me how would atheist civilize human without slavery?

You created threads of a similar nature on the old site and received the same predictable replies. They were predictable because there are a limited number of correct answers to any question.

Here is a question for you. Imagine you and I are alive, sometime around 3000 year ago. Would you consent to be my slave, if I assured you it would help the progress of civilization. If you did not consent and I forced you into slavery, along with your family and any future children, would the idea of helping to build civilization be a comfort to you?
if you were early human and you were stronger bully then me and you needed a labor to built your home , i will be forced to consent to your demand

That is not an answer to the question. You only restated the conditions of the question. Please address the actual question.
 

Sarpedon

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Isn't it amazing how religious people claim that atheists are immoral, yet all their moral arguments eventually reduce to 'might makes right?'

Slavery does one thing and one thing only: bestow wealth and power upon the slave owners. It may be that a warrior, supported by slaves, might be better armed and better trained than the ones a free society can produce. In that way, slavery would spread. That doesn't mean it is right, or necessary.
 

The Paul

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.early human slavery was NECESSARY for human progress

early human did not invented money and no one work for other people

so without man power human could not make progress

all past GREAT civilization built on slave workers

slavery responsible for civilizing human

allah did NOT condemn slavery because of that reason but make a way to abolish slavery by freeing them

since allah is all knowing, he knows that human slavery is responsible for civilizing human, so allah cant condemn something that civilized human

GOD IS GREAT

I just want you to know what my take home message is on this post, Syed. I want you to know what you've said to me.

You've reaffirmed for me that religion is evil. It can suspend people's logical thinking and moral sense to an almost unlimited degree. It can suspend them to such an extreme degree that they say things as disgusting as your opening post.
lol

No, it upsets you to know that your best efforts to promote your religion have no effect other than to inspire disgust, so you're doing your best to upset me in turn.

It's about as effective as your best efforts to spread your religion: The notion of your pain is vaguely pleasing.
 

Methinx

Junior Member
Joined
May 19, 2009
Messages
87
Location
UK
Basic Beliefs
Non Believer
Allah is Ar-Rahman : The All Beneficent, The Most Merciful in Essence, The Compassionate, The Most Gracious

And yet all he wants from humans is a form of slavery: And I did not create the Jinn and mankind except to worship Me… (Quran, 51:56-58)

:)
 

Tom Sawyer

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jun 25, 2002
Messages
17,030
Location
Toronto
Basic Beliefs
That I'm God
Allah is Ar-Rahman : The All Beneficent, The Most Merciful in Essence, The Compassionate, The Most Gracious

And yet all he wants from humans is a form of slavery: And I did not create the Jinn and mankind except to worship Me… (Quran, 51:56-58)

:)

Well, in Allah's defence, it does make things simpler. It is our natural state. It's the unspoken truth of humanity that we crave subjugation. The bright lure of freedom diminishes our life's joy in a mad scramble for power and for identity. We were made to be ruled and in the end, we will always kneel.
 

Syed

Banned
Banned
Joined
Jan 20, 2004
Messages
1,357
Location
USA
Basic Beliefs
muslim
Allah is Ar-Rahman : The All Beneficent, The Most Merciful in Essence, The Compassionate, The Most Gracious

And yet all he wants from humans is a form of slavery: And I did not create the Jinn and mankind except to worship Me… (Quran, 51:56-58)


:)
explain to me how allah want human to be slave?
 
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