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Economics question: How much is healthy for the 1%?

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This set France back decades.

That might be so; but even if you could persuade the revolutionaries that they were harming the economy upon which they themselves rely, they can't sew the aristocrat's head back on.

And once they hate him, they will chop it off just to wipe the smile off his face - even if they know that they will be poorer as a result.

It is never wise to forget that emotional motives are real, and owe nothing to reason or sense.

You can't reason with a mob even if you have all the facts in the world on your side. So the smart move for the upper classes is to take steps to avoid mobs from forming in the first place - even if that means a lower standard of living for all; or worse still, a lower standard of living for the wealthy.
 
What if we held the rich to the same standards we held the poor?

What if the rich had to regularly pee in a cup in show they morally deserve their money?
What if the rich had to report to the unemployment office and prove that they created X amount of jobs this week?
What if the rich had social workers coming to their houses on regular basis to make sure they were fit parents?
What if the rich had to show in court themselves for every parking ticket, speeding ticket, drunken disorderly, etc.? What if they got time instead of fines?
What if the rich could be fired without cause and with no severance?
What if the rich had to live in public housing, ride public transportation, and could only buy grocery with $189 a month of food stamps?
What if the only the healthcare available to the rich were clinics and the only way for them to pay was medicaid?

What if the rich got to keep their money, but just the money?
 
Aha, but the rich are made special by the token of their great wealth and prestige. Having achieved the highest strata of the pecking order, the rich cannot be expected to ever suffer the same indignities as the lower classes.
 
That's bullshit because it's opposite - lack of growth cause inequality.

Inequality leads to lack of growth which increases inequality further to the point of revolution.

You guys with the revolution hard-ons seem to have not noticed most of the economic revolutions and unrest in the last half century have been aimed at tossing out the commies, Bolivarian socialists, and other false prophets of equality.
 
why stop at 50 years ago? The US has had its share of social unrest because of economic inequality.
 
why stop at 50 years ago? The US has had its share of social unrest because of economic inequality.

I started then because that's about when people* stopped believing the false prophets equality and got tired enough of them fucking up their country that they started tossing them out. In some cases (e.g., China, Vietnam) the false prophets of equality just morphed themselves out of being false prophets of equality. "You remember that whole Great Leap Forward thing? Nevermind. Sorry about the 20,000,000 dead people. Now get out there and make some money."

But take heart, you still have Cuba and North Korea to point at. And those bougie capitalist students rioting in the streets of Venezuela haven't got Maduro strung up on a lamp post yet.

*outside college campuses and TFT
 
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This set France back decades.

That might be so; but even if you could persuade the revolutionaries that they were harming the economy upon which they themselves rely, they can't sew the aristocrat's head back on.

And once they hate him, they will chop it off just to wipe the smile off his face - even if they know that they will be poorer as a result.

It is never wise to forget that emotional motives are real, and owe nothing to reason or sense.

You can't reason with a mob even if you have all the facts in the world on your side. So the smart move for the upper classes is to take steps to avoid mobs from forming in the first place - even if that means a lower standard of living for all; or worse still, a lower standard of living for the wealthy.

While you're probably right about their motivation the result was the average person was worse off than had the revolution never happened.
 
That might be so; but even if you could persuade the revolutionaries that they were harming the economy upon which they themselves rely, they can't sew the aristocrat's head back on.

And once they hate him, they will chop it off just to wipe the smile off his face - even if they know that they will be poorer as a result.

It is never wise to forget that emotional motives are real, and owe nothing to reason or sense.

You can't reason with a mob even if you have all the facts in the world on your side. So the smart move for the upper classes is to take steps to avoid mobs from forming in the first place - even if that means a lower standard of living for all; or worse still, a lower standard of living for the wealthy.

While you're probably right about their motivation the result was the average person was worse off than had the revolution never happened.

While you are probably right about the economic consequences, the average person still doesn't give a fuck about economic consequences.
 
Aha, but the rich are made special by the token of their great wealth and prestige. Having achieved the highest strata of the pecking order, the rich cannot be expected to ever suffer the same indignities as the lower classes.

It's not like the rich want poor people to suffer. They just don't want to hear about it or do anything about it. Their reward for "earning" all of that loot is not having to see distasteful poor people act hungry or sick or cold in front of them. Could somebody tell me how I can join their ranks? They are the cool ones.;)
 
We now live in a world where 1% of the population control 50% of the wealth. (in the USA its more like 40%) Most wise people consider this to be too much.

So my question is: What is the healthy amount for the richest to control? And why?

I think the operative word here is control. To own something is not necessarily to control it. Let us say that in terms of land ownership this 1% owns considerably more than 50%. That means they hold title to it. It does not mean they actually control it. The same with money. When you own more than you can personally keep track of, can you be said to control it? I feel that the obscenely wealthy of this world are living with their own very special delusion that they are actually in control, when they are really only contacting everywhere they go, people who reinforce their feelings of power. They are sold investments they truly do not understand. They order things to happen they cannot monitor. They live in a world of fulminating unintended consequences which only other people have to see and have to live with. I cannot give you an ideal number of how wealthy a person should be allowed to become, but clearly there are people who are so wealthy they are completely out of control of their own wealth.

Thank you for offering the most hilarious and tenuous excuse for the aristocracy I've read in a very long time.
 
Aha, but the rich are made special by the token of their great wealth and prestige. Having achieved the highest strata of the pecking order, the rich cannot be expected to ever suffer the same indignities as the lower classes.

It's not like the rich want poor people to suffer. They just don't want to hear about it or do anything about it. Their reward for "earning" all of that loot is not having to see distasteful poor people act hungry or sick or cold in front of them. Could somebody tell me how I can join their ranks? They are the cool ones.;)

The pinnacle of the food chain, wealth, power, prestige and celebrity achieved, add youth and beauty and we have living examples of the veritable gods themselves, truly worthy of the worship of ordinary people, the lowly mortals belonging to the herd of the unwashed. :cool:
 
We now live in a world where 1% of the population control 50% of the wealth. (in the USA its more like 40%) Most wise people consider this to be too much.

So my question is: What is the healthy amount for the richest to control? And why?

However much the free market lets them get away with, of course! Because the Invisible Hand knows best.
 
While you're probably right about their motivation the result was the average person was worse off than had the revolution never happened.

While you are probably right about the economic consequences, the average person still doesn't give a fuck about economic consequences.

That doesn't mean one should advocate a course of action that will hurt those it's supposed to help.
 
While you are probably right about the economic consequences, the average person still doesn't give a fuck about economic consequences.

That doesn't mean one should advocate a course of action that will hurt those it's supposed to help.
I suppose this question is hopeless, but do you realize there is more to life than "economic consequences"?
 
We now live in a world where 1% of the population control 50% of the wealth. (in the USA its more like 40%) Most wise people consider this to be too much.

So my question is: What is the healthy amount for the richest to control? And why?

In spite of the consensus of the discussion so far, post #53, this is a pretty easy question to answer. This is the question that Thomas Picketty Set to answer in his Capital in the Twenty-First Century which was much discussed here by people who hadn't read the book.

His conclusion, backed by research into three centuries of data, was that wealth moves to the wealthy from everyone else when the rate of the returns to capital exceeds the rate of growth in the economy.

Growth is most closely associated with the investments in the economy that build new production facilities and not so much to the investments in paper things like stocks and bonds.

So the proper amount of wealth is related to the amount of investment required by the real economy of producing products for consumption and minimizing the so-called investments in paper.

[/the end of the board friendly, twitter, short attention span version. Details below.]

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Like many such conclusions from research it seems to be obvious once it is stated.

The economy needs new investment to build new production facilities for growth and to replace worn out or outdated ones and to finance new ideas, innovation. What we are going to call "real investment" here and for now, for short. (economics has a slightly different use for the word "real")

These returns to capital from real investment are paid largely as profits.

According to the economics orthodoxy, neoclassical economics, profits are the "wages" paid to capital and investment. They represent the marginal productivity of capital in econ speak.

Obviously, profits are paid largely to the wealthy.

The wealthy have a much larger propensity to save and invest. Everyone else spends their income largely on consumption.

Therefore profits go into investments. In other words, this money paid as profits becomes capital, what we call financial capital, money available for investments.

In this way, profits are quite unlike the "wages" of capital. Wages paid to labor are largely consumed, they don't become more labor. For this reason profits are like the interest paid on a loan, interest paid on debt rather than wages.

And like the interest on debt profits and the capital that they turn into, they compound, they accumulate, ballooning ever larger.

This must be good - right? Savings, investment, profits are all good - right? And wages are costs, and costs are bad as is consumption and debt - right?

Economics is a bad area to try to do morality, especially the macroeconomy, what we are talking about here. There is no good and bad for these things in economics. A good economy requires a balance of these things, not the minimizing of some and the maximizing of others.

When we don't have a balance between profits and wages, which is a balance between supply and demand, when there are too much in profits being made and not enough being paid in wages, there is too much supply and not enough demand. The excess profits becomes financial capital available for real investment that is not needed because of the low demand.

But unlike labor that is not used or factories that are idled by the low demand, this excess financial capital isn't a lost resource. It instead goes into stocks, bonds, Treasury bills, corporate paper, etc. It is stored in these pieces of paper, it compounds and accumulates, it is widely considered to be invested and it is counted as wealth.

But it doesn't build production facilities, it doesn't buy production machinery, it doesn't promote innovation or productivity increases, it is not real investment. For those reasons we are going to call it here and now, for short, "paper" investment, because that is what you get from them, pieces of paper.

Now for some numbers but easy math. Business investment in the US is below 400 billion dollars a year right now. Corporate profits are more than 1600 billion dollars a year. (More like 1800 billion dollars but I promised you easy math.) And this is just the big corporations, it doesn't take into account the single proprietorships, partnerships, S corporations, etc. that are usually lumped together under the heading "small business." It hard to separate what is profits and what is income for the so-called small businesses. Many of them are professionals, doctors, lawyers, engineers, architects, dentists, etc. where the businesses profits are the professional's income.

So right now corporate profits are more than four times business investment. This means that paper investments are about three times the rate, another way of saying "flow," of real investments. And this three times number is a flow that will accumulate in a stock of paper investments year after year.

Yes, this is excessive. But does it cause any harm? Yes, it does. In brief, I know that no one reads this far anyway,

  • In the last thirty five years corporate profits have more than doubled as a percentage of GDP.
  • Profits and wages are both costs of production.
  • We have either higher costs or lower wages because of the higher profits.
  • Since the overall portion of the economy going to wages has shrunk by the same portion of the economy as profits have gone up I am going with lower wages.
  • This didn't happen by accident, thirty five years ago we intentionally enacted economic, fiscal policies to suppress wages and to boost profits to have more money available for investment.
  • It worked as noted above, profits went up, wages went down, but business investment didn't increase. (all measured as a percentage of GDP.)
  • The means that we used to suppress wages were damaging to the economy.
  • We suppressed wages using globalization, more poverty, destroying the unions, effectively lowering the minimum wage, tolerating more unemployment, putting both parents to work, more private debt, lowering taxes on the wealthy and raising them on everyone else, etc.
  • This excessive financial capital fueled by the higher profits creates pressure to let for profit capitalism into businesses that it can't handle well.
  • Businesses like health care, fighting wars, running prisons, public works and education for example.
  • It is this excessive available financial capital that has caused all of asset bubbles and the financial instability that go with them. See Great Financial Crisis and Recession, GFC&R, of 2008 and Mortgage Backed Securities, MBSs.
  • The main beneficiary of all of the money made available for paper investments has been the stock markets.
  • What most people don't understand about the stock markets is that they more than 99% secondary markets, the profits and losses in the market don't come from the company whose stock is bought and sold.
  • The profits and losses come from other stockholders in the market, when you make a profit on a sale of a stock the profit is provided by the person to whom you sell the stock, not from the company whose stock it is.
  • They are a cross between betting on your favorite football team or in a casino where the winners are paid with the money from the losers, and a Ponzi scheme where increases in value are dependent on a constant stream of new money coming into the scheme.
  • This increase in valuation is called capital gains and has an almost mythical goodness and desirability about it but it is nothing more than the inflation of the share prices.
  • The inflation in stock prices puts pressure on the company's management to increase returns commensurate with the inflated value but with the real value's investment only.
  • Not always a bad thing, but it often results in short term expediency at the cost of long term gains. See GFC&R of 2008 and liar's loans.

So in conclusion, we can now say how much income is needed to support the needed investment in the economy, say averaging just 10 to 25% more than the amount needed for the real business investment. Not in excess of the 300% that we have currently.

Although I have to add that over the thirty five years that we have been intentionally boosted the incomes of the wealthy more than twenty trillion dollars of what would have gone to wages under the old policies was transferred to the wealthy for investments in the real economy that never occurred. Most of this money is now overseas, either invested there or just sitting in tax haven banks.

Remember that paying decent wages to the 99% and ending poverty should be a goal of the economy not providing the 1% with huge incomes at the cost of the wages that the 99% receive.

All of these things that we talked about here, investments, stocks, bonds, profits, etc. are part of the mechanism of capitalism. They are not the reason that the economy exists. They are part of the overhead costs of capitalism. And like any overhead costs it is better when we minimize them and force them to prove their worth. To make them work hard for their money.
 
In this way, profits are quite unlike the "wages" of capital. Wages paid to labor are largely consumed, they don't become more labor. For this reason profits are like the interest paid on a loan, interest paid on debt rather than wages.

And like the interest on debt profits and the capital that they turn into, they compound, they accumulate, ballooning ever larger.

This must be good - right? Savings, investment, profits are all good - right? And wages are costs, and costs are bad as is consumption and debt - right?

Economics is a bad area to try to do morality, especially the macroeconomy, what we are talking about here. There is no good and bad for these things in economics. A good economy requires a balance of these things, not the minimizing of some and the maximizing of others.

When we don't have a balance between profits and wages, which is a balance between supply and demand, when there are too much in profits being made and not enough being paid in wages, there is too much supply and not enough demand. The excess profits becomes financial capital available for real investment that is not needed because of the low demand.

But unlike labor that is not used or factories that are idled by the low demand, this excess financial capital isn't a lost resource. It instead goes into stocks, bonds, Treasury bills, corporate paper, etc. It is stored in these pieces of paper, it compounds and accumulates, it is widely considered to be invested and it is counted as wealth.

But it doesn't build production facilities, it doesn't buy production machinery, it doesn't promote innovation or productivity increases, it is not real investment. For those reasons we are going to call it here and now, for short, "paper" investment, because that is what you get from them, pieces of paper.

Now for some numbers but easy math. Business investment in the US is below 400 billion dollars a year right now. Corporate profits are more than 1600 billion dollars a year. (More like 1800 billion dollars but I promised you easy math.) And this is just the big corporations, it doesn't take into account the single proprietorships, partnerships, S corporations, etc. that are usually lumped together under the heading "small business." It hard to separate what is profits and what is income for the so-called small businesses. Many of them are professionals, doctors, lawyers, engineers, architects, dentists, etc. where the businesses profits are the professional's income.

So right now corporate profits are more than four times business investment. This means that paper investments are about three times the rate, another way of saying "flow," of real investments. And this three times number is a flow that will accumulate in a stock of paper investments year after year.

If there was no return on investment they wouldn't invest it in the first place. Thus this comparison doesn't tell us if it's proper or not.
 
In this way, profits are quite unlike the "wages" of capital. Wages paid to labor are largely consumed, they don't become more labor. For this reason profits are like the interest paid on a loan, interest paid on debt rather than wages.

And like the interest on debt profits and the capital that they turn into, they compound, they accumulate, ballooning ever larger.

This must be good - right? Savings, investment, profits are all good - right? And wages are costs, and costs are bad as is consumption and debt - right?

Economics is a bad area to try to do morality, especially the macroeconomy, what we are talking about here. There is no good and bad for these things in economics. A good economy requires a balance of these things, not the minimizing of some and the maximizing of others.

When we don't have a balance between profits and wages, which is a balance between supply and demand, when there are too much in profits being made and not enough being paid in wages, there is too much supply and not enough demand. The excess profits becomes financial capital available for real investment that is not needed because of the low demand.

But unlike labor that is not used or factories that are idled by the low demand, this excess financial capital isn't a lost resource. It instead goes into stocks, bonds, Treasury bills, corporate paper, etc. It is stored in these pieces of paper, it compounds and accumulates, it is widely considered to be invested and it is counted as wealth.

But it doesn't build production facilities, it doesn't buy production machinery, it doesn't promote innovation or productivity increases, it is not real investment. For those reasons we are going to call it here and now, for short, "paper" investment, because that is what you get from them, pieces of paper.

Now for some numbers but easy math. Business investment in the US is below 400 billion dollars a year right now. Corporate profits are more than 1600 billion dollars a year. (More like 1800 billion dollars but I promised you easy math.) And this is just the big corporations, it doesn't take into account the single proprietorships, partnerships, S corporations, etc. that are usually lumped together under the heading "small business." It hard to separate what is profits and what is income for the so-called small businesses. Many of them are professionals, doctors, lawyers, engineers, architects, dentists, etc. where the businesses profits are the professional's income.

So right now corporate profits are more than four times business investment. This means that paper investments are about three times the rate, another way of saying "flow," of real investments. And this three times number is a flow that will accumulate in a stock of paper investments year after year.

If there was no return on investment they wouldn't invest it in the first place. Thus this comparison doesn't tell us if it's proper or not.

This is the whole point. There is much more money available for real investment in the things that build the economy than is needed. The money that can't find a real investment causes problems, asset bubbles, the pressure to capitalize businesses that don't fit the for profit model, etc.

Instead the excess financial capital goes into paper investments that don't build the economy. Money that would boost the economy if it was paid in wages instead of as profits. We have too much supply and not enough demand in the economy.

I am saying that supply obviously doesn't create its own demand. The wealthy are happy to embrace supply side economics when it boosts profits, their income, by suppressing wages. But when it comes to investing their money they become Keynesians, they won't invest in the real economy of producing products for consumption unless there is a demand for the products, unless there is a promise of a return on the investment.
 
I provided what was asked for, an explanation of how much wealth is too much for the wealthy to have and why.

I provided a short version and a detailed explanation. I thought that it would challenge the discussion, especially those who said that it was unknowable or that we had to accept what we get, presumably because it is too dangerous to try to change.

It takes me a long time to write anything, hours for the long post above. Please, show me that the effort is of some value to the discussion and to the board.
 
In this way, profits are quite unlike the "wages" of capital. Wages paid to labor are largely consumed, they don't become more labor. For this reason profits are like the interest paid on a loan, interest paid on debt rather than wages.

And like the interest on debt profits and the capital that they turn into, they compound, they accumulate, ballooning ever larger.

This must be good - right? Savings, investment, profits are all good - right? And wages are costs, and costs are bad as is consumption and debt - right?

Economics is a bad area to try to do morality, especially the macroeconomy, what we are talking about here. There is no good and bad for these things in economics. A good economy requires a balance of these things, not the minimizing of some and the maximizing of others.

When we don't have a balance between profits and wages, which is a balance between supply and demand, when there are too much in profits being made and not enough being paid in wages, there is too much supply and not enough demand. The excess profits becomes financial capital available for real investment that is not needed because of the low demand.

But unlike labor that is not used or factories that are idled by the low demand, this excess financial capital isn't a lost resource. It instead goes into stocks, bonds, Treasury bills, corporate paper, etc. It is stored in these pieces of paper, it compounds and accumulates, it is widely considered to be invested and it is counted as wealth.

But it doesn't build production facilities, it doesn't buy production machinery, it doesn't promote innovation or productivity increases, it is not real investment. For those reasons we are going to call it here and now, for short, "paper" investment, because that is what you get from them, pieces of paper.

Now for some numbers but easy math. Business investment in the US is below 400 billion dollars a year right now. Corporate profits are more than 1600 billion dollars a year. (More like 1800 billion dollars but I promised you easy math.) And this is just the big corporations, it doesn't take into account the single proprietorships, partnerships, S corporations, etc. that are usually lumped together under the heading "small business." It hard to separate what is profits and what is income for the so-called small businesses. Many of them are professionals, doctors, lawyers, engineers, architects, dentists, etc. where the businesses profits are the professional's income.

So right now corporate profits are more than four times business investment. This means that paper investments are about three times the rate, another way of saying "flow," of real investments. And this three times number is a flow that will accumulate in a stock of paper investments year after year.

If there was no return on investment they wouldn't invest it in the first place. Thus this comparison doesn't tell us if it's proper or not.
Don, spent hours making that post and all you can do is put out a strawman?

he never called for zero ROI, but you knew that already.

you should try again and actually engage with what don wrote.
 
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