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Enough, Manchin and Sinema are who they are, let's move on

Jimmy Higgins

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There is a bunch of anger amongst Democrats with Manchin and Sinema who have interceded in the Democrats plans to pass certain legislation, the widespread Stimulus, Filibuster reform, and Voting Rights bill. Yes, this is disappointing. But we really need to step back a second. You know what is more important that the Voting Rights Bill? It'd be the courts interceding in that bill.

The miracle of Georgia gave us something much more important than the ability to get a Voting Rights bill passed or reform the Filibuster. Simply put, it gave Biden a shot in hell of getting anything accomplished. McConnell has proven he will intervene in any way possible for almost any legislation possible to get the GOP back in power, because you know... that shit works. So, with the 50-50 tie in the Senate, we can't exactly allow anger over the above to allow McConnell to get defections into the GOP.

Judicial nominations? Forget about it! There is a strong likelihood that McConnell would block another SCOTUS nominee, as there are no repercussions to that action.

So we need pragmatism here. With a hair thin margin in the Senate, and a very tight margin in the House, we can't be squabbling over the above, and we should take the power we have and get what can done. Sinema and Manchin aren't going to liberalize up, so stop expecting them to. And let's not Jeffords them out of the party which would make us appreciate what we had.
 

Elixir

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The pisser is the lack of clarity about who is pulling Sinema and Manchin’s $trings.
The facts of both actors’ known financial interests being in conflict with Democratic Party interests makes me wonder. If Dems were to capture two more seats in ‘22, would the DINOS change parties?
 

Politesse

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So we need pragmatism here. With a hair thin margin in the Senate, and a very tight margin in the House, we can't be squabbling over the above, and we should take the power we have and get what can done. Sinema and Manchin aren't going to liberalize up, so stop expecting them to. And let's not Jeffords them out of the party which would make us appreciate what we had.
I'm curious what exactly "we" should be doing, aside from attempting to pass meaningful legislation, keeping the government functional through the present times of crisis, and filling appointments as they appear. As angry as I indeed I am at the turncoats, and the general spinelessness of the DNC in dealing with them, I don't see legislators or the executive branch as focusing on them to the exclusion of doing what they are supposed to be doing. The government hasn't been as effective as it currently is in many years, I have no real complaints about the White House as a functional team at present.
 

Politesse

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would the DINOS change parties
If they predictably vote against their party anyway, what difference does it make anyway? As long as the Democrats preserve their thin majority, it doesn't otherwise matter what color displays under someone's name on CSPAN.
 

Keith&Co.

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would the DINOS change parties
If they predictably vote against their party anyway, what difference does it make anyway? As long as the Democrats preserve their thin majority, it doesn't otherwise matter what color displays under someone's name on CSPAN.
But the displays under the names are HOW Dems maintain a majority. If Manchin and Sinema defect, McConnell is back in charge.
 

Elixir

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what difference does it make anyway?
I'm pretty sure they would both vote for all things progressive (at least Manchin would, since his constituents like things like voting rights and fighting climate change) if they were sure they would never pass. But if passage threatens their donor base (Sinema) or personal income (Manchin), they bail out in a New York minute.
 

Jimmy Higgins

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So we need pragmatism here. With a hair thin margin in the Senate, and a very tight margin in the House, we can't be squabbling over the above, and we should take the power we have and get what can done. Sinema and Manchin aren't going to liberalize up, so stop expecting them to. And let's not Jeffords them out of the party which would make us appreciate what we had.
I'm curious what exactly "we" should be doing, aside from attempting to pass meaningful legislation, keeping the government functional through the present times of crisis, and filling appointments as they appear.
Judges, judges, judges. Without one of these two, Biden's ability to nominate and gets Judges on seats is greatly restricted. Make no mistake, this is the most important job of a President in the 21st Century. It is why the right-wing sold their soul and voted for Trump.
As angry as I indeed I am at the turncoats, and the general spinelessness of the DNC in dealing with them, I don't see legislators or the executive branch as focusing on them to the exclusion of doing what they are supposed to be doing. The government hasn't been as effective as it currently is in many years, I have no real complaints about the White House as a functional team at present.
They aren't turncoats. They appear hard to work with, but they are allowed to be conservative if they come from a deep red and reddish purple state!
 

Politesse

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As angry as I indeed I am at the turncoats, and the general spinelessness of the DNC in dealing with them, I don't see legislators or the executive branch as focusing on them to the exclusion of doing what they are supposed to be doing. The government hasn't been as effective as it currently is in many years, I have no real complaints about the White House as a functional team at present.
They aren't turncoats. They appear hard to work with, but they are allowed to be conservative if they come from a deep red and reddish purple state!
I disagree. Yes, of course they are allowed to work for the Republicans, but it does make them turncoats. If you don't like the shoes, don't wear them. And it seems like they're super enjoying all the press attention and special invitations they're getting anyway, so who's feelings are you defending? They don't care, and you shouldn't either.
 

Elixir

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seems like they're super enjoying all the press attention and special invitations they're getting anyway
Sure does.
Must feel good to have an entire major political party ready to cowtow to your every whim. Especially when you have no intention of ever doing what you’re stringing them along for.

I don’t see them as turncoats though. I think they are both simply working for themselves rather than for those who elected them and pay them. Which is a largely, but not exclusively a Republican trait. And actually more despicable than harboring oppositional positions.
 

Harry Bosch

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So we need pragmatism here. With a hair thin margin in the Senate, and a very tight margin in the House, we can't be squabbling over the above, and we should take the power we have and get what can done. Sinema and Manchin aren't going to liberalize up, so stop expecting them to. And let's not Jeffords them out of the party which would make us appreciate what we had.
I'm curious what exactly "we" should be doing, aside from attempting to pass meaningful legislation, keeping the government functional through the present times of crisis, and filling appointments as they appear. As angry as I indeed I am at the turncoats, and the general spinelessness of the DNC in dealing with them, I don't see legislators or the executive branch as focusing on them to the exclusion of doing what they are supposed to be doing. The government hasn't been as effective as it currently is in many years, I have no real complaints about the White House as a functional team at present.
I'll tell you what we should be doing, quit complaining, start working on expanding the dem tent to increase our majority in 2022! The problem with the left is that we are too short sighted. The republicans are long sighted. And that's why they have control of the supreme court, and will most likely retake the house and the senate in 2022. They go long, we go short. We don't get what we want within a short period of time, we get demoralized, then stop voting. I 100% agree with Jimmy. It is what it is. The real problem that we have is that our margin is so small. Let's increase the tent...
 

Politesse

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I'll tell you what we should be doing, quit complaining, start working on expanding the dem tent to increase our majority in 2022! The problem with the left is that we are too short sighted.
Every time the Democrats try to "expand the tent", they end up sacrificing their values and principles and getting nothing in return, because their opponents have no such scruples about fighting dirty. Joe Biden could be doing nothing at all as president except weekly radio readings of the Bible and Atlas Shrugged, and the right wing would still excoriate Sleepy Joe as the most dangerous Marxist ever to occupy the White House. We already have no true left wing in this country, at least not as most countries would define a left wing. Just how much more conservative are we supposed to skew? While neo-fascists march openly in the streets and sitting legislators plot coup?
 

Jimmy Higgins

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I'll tell you what we should be doing, quit complaining, start working on expanding the dem tent to increase our majority in 2022! The problem with the left is that we are too short sighted.
Every time the Democrats try to "expand the tent", they end up sacrificing their values and principles and getting nothing in return, because their opponents have no such scruples about fighting dirty. Joe Biden could be doing nothing at all as president except weekly radio readings of the Bible and Atlas Shrugged, and the right wing would still excoriate Sleepy Joe as the most dangerous Marxist ever to occupy the White House. We already have no true left wing in this country, at least not as most countries would define a left wing. Just how much more conservative are we supposed to skew? While neo-fascists march openly in the streets and sitting legislators plot coup?
The question is how far right wing should the courts get?
 

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And....every time the Democrats criticize one of their own, the Republicans are jumping with joy! The two moderately conservative Dems aren't the real problem. The real problem is that there aren't enough Dems in the Senate to get much done, since most of the time, the Republican goal is to obstruct.

Manchin is the only Democrat who could be elected in a state like WV. He doesn't always vote against the Dems. When Manchin said he could support a BBB plan if it was less than 1.7 trillion bucks, Biden might try having a meeting with him and ask him exactly what he could support. That would be a start. It might not work, but it's worth a try.

For fuck's sake, you all should know that the Dem party, unlike the Repug party has always been a big tent party with a range of views and personal ideologies. That is why it's so important to elect more Dems to the Senate. That may be impossible in our centrist, or right of center country. But, those on both ends need to compromise if they want to accomplish anything.

Right now, I'm concerned about Warnock getting elected this fall, as the Dems in Georgia are so disappointed with Biden and company. Whine, whine whine! That usually leads to voter apathy. Way to go Democrats. If you can't get everything you want, don't bother voting. I know people like that and it's difficult to talk sense to them. *sigh*

If we want to overcome the Republicans attempts to suppress the vote, we need to do whatever it takes to vote! And, we need to stop criticizing other Democrats.
 

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The pisser is the lack of clarity about who is pulling Sinema and Manchin’s $trings.
The facts of both actors’ known financial interests being in conflict with Democratic Party interests makes me wonder. If Dems were to capture two more seats in ‘22, would the DINOS change parties?
Probably...yes?
 

Politesse

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For fuck's sake, you all should know that the Dem party, unlike the Repug party has always been a big tent party with a range of views and personal ideologies. That is why it's so important to elect more Dems to the Senate. That may be impossible in our centrist, or right of center country. But, those on both ends need to compromise if they want to accomplish anything.
I don't mind compromise if it's with different Democratic perspectives.

Biden might try having a meeting with him and ask him exactly what he could support

He did. He is still doing so. But one senator standing alone should not have complete legislative control. Why is Biden supposed to take the sole heat for being unwilling to compromise? The bill in question has changed many times, all in a more and more conservative direction, and is currently dead in the water even as conversations continue on how to somehow save it. The Biden administration has had conference after conference with Manchin, and the current proposal is for barely more than half of what was originally promised to the American people. The American people who by the numbers very much wanted this bill, and used their presidential vote to make that very clear. Joe Biden is not the one digging in his heels and refusing to consider alternative views, here. It's true that Manchin's position is popular in West Virginia, but I don't see naked self-interest, when pursued at the cost of the suffering of milllions, as a virtue.
 

southernhybrid

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For fuck's sake, you all should know that the Dem party, unlike the Repug party has always been a big tent party with a range of views and personal ideologies. That is why it's so important to elect more Dems to the Senate. That may be impossible in our centrist, or right of center country. But, those on both ends need to compromise if they want to accomplish anything.
I don't mind compromise if it's with different Democratic perspectives.

Biden might try having a meeting with him and ask him exactly what he could support

He did. He is still doing so. But one senator standing alone should not have complete legislative control. Why is Biden supposed to take the sole heat for being unwilling to compromise? The bill in question has changed many times, all in a more and more conservative direction, and is currently dead in the water even as conversations continue on how to somehow save it. The Biden administration has had conference after conference with Manchin, and the current proposal is for barely more than half of what was originally promised to the American people. The American people who by the numbers very much wanted this bill, and used their presidential vote to make that very clear. Joe Biden is not the one digging in his heels and refusing to consider alternative views, here. It's true that Manchin's position is popular in West Virginia, but I don't see naked self-interest, when pursued at the cost of the suffering of milllions, as a virtue.
I'm not blaming Biden and I realize he has already spoken to Manchin about this bill. But, since Manchin has been so ambiguous regarding what he will or won't support, I was not aware that Biden has recently had another serious discussion with Manchin regarding the BBB bill. If Biden has had enough of trying to persuade Manchin, I understand. I like Biden. Unlike many people here, I felt he was the best candidate who ran in 2020, and the only one who had a chance of beating that thing that was in the WH for 4 years. That's all I'm saying. If Manchin won't support the bill at all, then that's that. Unless WV changes drastically in the near future, only a conservative Democrat can win a Senate seat in that state. If the Dems want to enlarge their base, they need to do things that will attract more white working class into the fold. Right now, I'm not exactly sure what that would take, considering that so many in that group have been manipulated by Trump.

Like I've already said, the fact is that the Democrats are a big tent party and it's not at all unusual for some of them to disagree with each other. I wasn't happy about the "Squad" refusing to vote for the infrastructure bill because they wanted to have the BBB bill passed along with it. I thought that made them look like spiteful children, as we drastically need infrastructure improvement, but others disagree with me and they certainly have the right to their opinions. Again, that's the Democratic Party, the party of cats, not sheep.
 

Politesse

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For fuck's sake, you all should know that the Dem party, unlike the Repug party has always been a big tent party with a range of views and personal ideologies. That is why it's so important to elect more Dems to the Senate. That may be impossible in our centrist, or right of center country. But, those on both ends need to compromise if they want to accomplish anything.
I don't mind compromise if it's with different Democratic perspectives.

Biden might try having a meeting with him and ask him exactly what he could support

He did. He is still doing so. But one senator standing alone should not have complete legislative control. Why is Biden supposed to take the sole heat for being unwilling to compromise? The bill in question has changed many times, all in a more and more conservative direction, and is currently dead in the water even as conversations continue on how to somehow save it. The Biden administration has had conference after conference with Manchin, and the current proposal is for barely more than half of what was originally promised to the American people. The American people who by the numbers very much wanted this bill, and used their presidential vote to make that very clear. Joe Biden is not the one digging in his heels and refusing to consider alternative views, here. It's true that Manchin's position is popular in West Virginia, but I don't see naked self-interest, when pursued at the cost of the suffering of milllions, as a virtue.
I'm not blaming Biden and I realize he has already spoken to Manchin about this bill. But, since Manchin has been so ambiguous regarding what he will or won't support, I was not aware that Biden has recently had another serious discussion with Manchin regarding the BBB bill. If Biden has had enough of trying to persuade Manchin, I understand. I like Biden. Unlike many people here, I felt he was the best candidate who ran in 2020, and the only one who had a chance of beating that thing that was in the WH for 4 years. That's all I'm saying. If Manchin won't support the bill at all, then that's that. Unless WV changes drastically in the near future, only a conservative Democrat can win a Senate seat in that state. If the Dems want to enlarge their base, they need to do things that will attract more white working class into the fold. Right now, I'm not exactly sure what that would take, considering that so many in that group have been manipulated by Trump.

Like I've already said, the fact is that the Democrats are a big tent party and it's not at all unusual for some of them to disagree with each other. I wasn't happy about the "Squad" refusing to vote for the infrastructure bill because they wanted to have the BBB bill passed along with it. I thought that made them look like spiteful children, as we drastically need infrastructure improvement, but others disagree with me and they certainly have the right to their opinions. Again, that's the Democratic Party, the party of cats, not sheep.
Well I'm not upset at the Party for... what, existing? Having differing opinions? For trying to negotiate through stalls? That's not a problem, and I don't know what else one would do even if it were. I'm not a card-carrying Democrat myself, but I'm not upset with them as a general body. They're no more corrupt than their competition and generally lean in the direction of expanding civil rights and the continued functioning of the state, at least when the oligarchic money isn't flowing the other way this week.

But none of that improves my opinion of Sinema and Manchin particularly, who by any reasonable measure are acting like whiny children demanding the limelight to further their own careers, rather than competent rulers with a job to do. Part of that job to do is representing their district. But that is not their only job or their only responsibility.
 

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I feel like talking to Manchin is a waste of breath. What wouldn’t we give to have the time back that he has already wasted. It is fucking obvious that he is working for himself and has found ways to make peace with that fact.
Move along, nothing gonna come from trying to get Manchin to act against his own interests. He knows he’s toast after this term anyhow.
If the Democrats don’t quite quickly start pulling some rabbits (and viable candidates) out of some hats, we’re screwed.
 

RVonse

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So we need pragmatism here. With a hair thin margin in the Senate, and a very tight margin in the House, we can't be squabbling over the above, and we should take the power we have and get what can done. Sinema and Manchin aren't going to liberalize up, so stop expecting them to. And let's not Jeffords them out of the party which would make us appreciate what we had.
I'm curious what exactly "we" should be doing, aside from attempting to pass meaningful legislation, keeping the government functional through the present times of crisis, and filling appointments as they appear. As angry as I indeed I am at the turncoats, and the general spinelessness of the DNC in dealing with them, I don't see legislators or the executive branch as focusing on them to the exclusion of doing what they are supposed to be doing. The government hasn't been as effective as it currently is in many years, I have no real complaints about the White House as a functional team at present.
I'll tell you what we should be doing, quit complaining, start working on expanding the dem tent to increase our majority in 2022! The problem with the left is that we are too short sighted. The republicans are long sighted. And that's why they have control of the supreme court, and will most likely retake the house and the senate in 2022. They go long, we go short. We don't get what we want within a short period of time, we get demoralized, then stop voting. I 100% agree with Jimmy. It is what it is. The real problem that we have is that our margin is so small. Let's increase the tent...
On that count, the democrats could start by realizing how profoundly they have hurt their party with "defund the police" and "shoplifters go free if it is below $250".
 

Harry Bosch

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So we need pragmatism here. With a hair thin margin in the Senate, and a very tight margin in the House, we can't be squabbling over the above, and we should take the power we have and get what can done. Sinema and Manchin aren't going to liberalize up, so stop expecting them to. And let's not Jeffords them out of the party which would make us appreciate what we had.
I'm curious what exactly "we" should be doing, aside from attempting to pass meaningful legislation, keeping the government functional through the present times of crisis, and filling appointments as they appear. As angry as I indeed I am at the turncoats, and the general spinelessness of the DNC in dealing with them, I don't see legislators or the executive branch as focusing on them to the exclusion of doing what they are supposed to be doing. The government hasn't been as effective as it currently is in many years, I have no real complaints about the White House as a functional team at present.
I'll tell you what we should be doing, quit complaining, start working on expanding the dem tent to increase our majority in 2022! The problem with the left is that we are too short sighted. The republicans are long sighted. And that's why they have control of the supreme court, and will most likely retake the house and the senate in 2022. They go long, we go short. We don't get what we want within a short period of time, we get demoralized, then stop voting. I 100% agree with Jimmy. It is what it is. The real problem that we have is that our margin is so small. Let's increase the tent...
On that count, the democrats could start by realizing how profoundly they have hurt their party with "defund the police" and "shoplifters go free if it is below $250".
I agree that defund the police is one of dumbest political slogans in recent memory. It was a gift to republicans. I've never heard of "shoplifters go free if it is below $250". Do you have a link?
 

RVonse

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I'll tell you what we should be doing, quit complaining, start working on expanding the dem tent to increase our majority in 2022! The problem with the left is that we are too short sighted.
We already have no true left wing in this country, at least not as most countries would define a left wing. Just how much more conservative are we supposed to skew?
How about funding the police and leaving statues of Shakespeare alone? Surely even the liberals realize this is extremely really radical left behavior on their part..
 

RVonse

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So we need pragmatism here. With a hair thin margin in the Senate, and a very tight margin in the House, we can't be squabbling over the above, and we should take the power we have and get what can done. Sinema and Manchin aren't going to liberalize up, so stop expecting them to. And let's not Jeffords them out of the party which would make us appreciate what we had.
I'm curious what exactly "we" should be doing, aside from attempting to pass meaningful legislation, keeping the government functional through the present times of crisis, and filling appointments as they appear. As angry as I indeed I am at the turncoats, and the general spinelessness of the DNC in dealing with them, I don't see legislators or the executive branch as focusing on them to the exclusion of doing what they are supposed to be doing. The government hasn't been as effective as it currently is in many years, I have no real complaints about the White House as a functional team at present.
I'll tell you what we should be doing, quit complaining, start working on expanding the dem tent to increase our majority in 2022! The problem with the left is that we are too short sighted. The republicans are long sighted. And that's why they have control of the supreme court, and will most likely retake the house and the senate in 2022. They go long, we go short. We don't get what we want within a short period of time, we get demoralized, then stop voting. I 100% agree with Jimmy. It is what it is. The real problem that we have is that our margin is so small. Let's increase the tent...
On that count, the democrats could start by realizing how profoundly they have hurt their party with "defund the police" and "shoplifters go free if it is below $250".
I agree that defund the police is one of dumbest political slogans in recent memory. It was a gift to republicans. I've never heard of "shoplifters go free if it is below $250". Do you have a link?

I think Massachusetts is $250 though. In any case, the reason they go free in many cases is because the police won't bother to arrest them since they aren't really prosecuted. There is a lot of small business Democrats who are re-thinking whether they still like their party.
 

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As angry as I indeed I am at the turncoats, and the general spinelessness of the DNC in dealing with them, I don't see legislators or the executive branch as focusing on them to the exclusion of doing what they are supposed to be doing. The government hasn't been as effective as it currently is in many years, I have no real complaints about the White House as a functional team at present.
They aren't turncoats. They appear hard to work with, but they are allowed to be conservative if they come from a deep red and reddish purple state!
It's misleading to say that JM and KS are "conservative" because they come from red-purplish states. Those who voted for these two generally SUPPORT Biden's agenda, and in particular want to see Voters Rights passed.

On that count, the democrats could start by realizing how profoundly they have hurt their party with "defund the police" and "shoplifters go free if it is below $250".
While it's true that Democrats' missteps have been exaggerated by liars like Carlson and Hannity, the Democrats do kick a lot of "own goals." They should listen to Bill Maher.

The D's MIGHT save the Senate, but the House is almost certainly turning Red after 2022. This year is the last chance for the Ds to achieve any legislation. I wish they kept their priorities better focused.
 

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I think Massachusetts is $250 though. In any case, the reason they go free in many cases is because the police won't bother to arrest them since they aren't really prosecuted. There is a lot of small business Democrats who are re-thinking whether they still like their party.

The real problem is that the bail system was being used as an informal means of punishment (note: without any determination of guilt.) We simply don't have the resources in place to actually prosecute the criminals.
 

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I think that petty theft ought to be treated as a summary offense, like a traffic violation. Likewise for fare beating. A small penalty, yes, but low administration, and with plenty of legal bricks in reserve to dump on offenders who don't get the message.
 
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