• Welcome to the new Internet Infidels Discussion Board, formerly Talk Freethought.

Everything I Learned About WW II Is A LIE!

Status
Not open for further replies.

cultsmasher

Banned
Banned
Joined
Jun 18, 2015
Messages
46
Location
USA
Basic Beliefs
White National Socialism
You need to keep in mind two old sayings. "In war, truth is the first casualty," and "History is written by the victors." There are many conspiracy theories out there. Such as the moon landings being faked, the U.S. being behind the 9-11 attacks, etc. To the best of my ability to judge, what I am going to tell you isn't one of those crackpot conspiracies. You can see something interesting by typing into your browser, "Old Red Cross documents that list concentration camp deaths." You should be able to find some old Red Cross documents that say that only about 271,000 Jews died in Nazi "concentration camps." Not 6 million.

Checking into them some, these documents were apparently classified and buried in some archive for decades. They were declassified and released sometime in the 70's. It would appear that from this standpoint, holocaust deniers did have a leg to stand on.

A few months ago on another forum I heard of a documentary that can be seen for free on the internet. It's called, "Adolf Hitler: The greatest story NEVER told." It was overly long. Six hours long in fact. It took me three or four days to watch it all. But here and there throughout it, I found information that was incredible. The holocaust was indeed largely a hoax! I can't believe the degree to which the American people have been lied to! Almost every night somewhere in TV, they have some show on about the supposedly "evil" Nazis and the atrocities they supposedly committed. It's all a bunch of lying propaganda horseshit!!!

Don't believe it? Look up the old Red Cross documents I mentioned. Watch the documentary I mentioned. Do what the makers of it invite you to do at the end of it. Which is to look up the facts for yourself.
 

Ford

Contributor
Joined
Nov 30, 2010
Messages
5,719
Location
'Merica
Basic Beliefs
Godless Heathen
Wow...you found out on the internet that the Holocaust is a hoax? Tell me more!

:eating_popcorn:
 

Bronzeage

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 27, 2011
Messages
7,493
Location
Deep South
Basic Beliefs
Pragmatic
You need to keep in mind two old sayings. "In war, truth is the first casualty," and "History is written by the victors." There are many conspiracy theories out there. Such as the moon landings being faked, the U.S. being behind the 9-11 attacks, etc. To the best of my ability to judge, what I am going to tell you isn't one of those crackpot conspiracies. You can see something interesting by typing into your browser, "Old Red Cross documents that list concentration camp deaths." You should be able to find some old Red Cross documents that say that only about 271,000 Jews died in Nazi "concentration camps." Not 6 million.

Checking into them some, these documents were apparently classified and buried in some archive for decades. They were declassified and released sometime in the 70's. It would appear that from this standpoint, holocaust deniers did have a leg to stand on.

A few months ago on another forum I heard of a documentary that can be seen for free on the internet. It's called, "Adolf Hitler: The greatest story NEVER told." It was overly long. Six hours long in fact. It took me three or four days to watch it all. But here and there throughout it, I found information that was incredible. The holocaust was indeed largely a hoax! I can't believe the degree to which the American people have been lied to! Almost every night somewhere in TV, they have some show on about the supposedly "evil" Nazis and the atrocities they supposedly committed. It's all a bunch of lying propaganda horseshit!!!

Don't believe it? Look up the old Red Cross documents I mentioned. Watch the documentary I mentioned. Do what the makers of it invite you to do at the end of it. Which is to look up the facts for yourself.

The Nazis were bad people. They did bad things. They murdered men, women, and children. Deal with it.
 

Keith&Co.

Contributor
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Messages
22,444
Location
Far Western Mass
Gender
Here.
Basic Beliefs
I'm here...
The fifteen results for "Old Red Cross documents that list concentration camp deaths" are copies of your opening post.

I wish i could even say it was a surprise....

So, even if this is true, which i really doubt, what's the goal, here?
The Nazis were NOT so evil that they wiped out the equivalent of the entire population of Paraguay for racist politics, but they wiped out the entire population of Boise...for the same bullshit reason? Does that make them any less evil, or just lazier?
 

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
27,338
Location
The Sunshine State: The one with Crocs, not Gators
Gender
He/Him
Basic Beliefs
Strong Atheist
I must remember, at my trial for murdering a quarter of a million people in cold blood, to point out to the judge the mitigating circumstance of my not having killed six million people.

I am sure that will get the case dismissed.
 

EricK

Senior Member
Joined
May 22, 2005
Messages
536
Location
Romford, England
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
I must remember, at my trial for murdering a quarter of a million people in cold blood, to point out to the judge the mitigating circumstance of my not having killed six million people.

I am sure that will get the case dismissed.

The important thing to bear in mind is that if there is an error of 5.75 million in the original figure, then is it too hard to believe there is an error of just 1 million in this revised figure. Maybe the Nazis created three quarters of a million Jews.
 

Tom Sawyer

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Jun 25, 2002
Messages
17,030
Location
Toronto
Basic Beliefs
That I'm God
What would be the point of this conspiracy? I mean that from the point of view of the conspirators.

I get the rationales for other conspiracies. The US faked the moon landing so that they could display their scientific prowes as a Cold War propaganda tool. The CIA framed Oswald to cover up their own assasianation of a President. Bush blew up the Twin Towers in order to give the US a reason to go to war.

At the end of WWII, however, apparently people got together and said "Slaughtering 400,000 innocent people seems to be a bit of a doddle. Let's pretend it was 6,000,000 so that people will be horrified at what the Nazis did as opposed to only being minorly miffed". I just don't get how inflating the first number to the second number really accomplishes anything for them so that it would be worth the trouble. If it turns out that this is true, I really don't know why they would have bothered.
 

Bronzeage

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 27, 2011
Messages
7,493
Location
Deep South
Basic Beliefs
Pragmatic
What would be the point of this conspiracy? I mean that from the point of view of the conspirators.

I get the rationales for other conspiracies. The US faked the moon landing so that they could display their scientific prowes as a Cold War propaganda tool. The CIA framed Oswald to cover up their own assasianation of a President. Bush blew up the Twin Towers in order to give the US a reason to go to war.

At the end of WWII, however, apparently people got together and said "Slaughtering 400,000 innocent people seems to be a bit of a doddle. Let's pretend it was 6,000,000 so that people will be horrified at what the Nazis did as opposed to only being minorly miffed". I just don't get how inflating the first number to the second number really accomplishes anything for them so that it would be worth the trouble. If it turns out that this is true, I really don't know why they would have bothered.

The conspiracy here is not to create the illusion of a holocaust, and thus give political license for everything from the division of Germany to the creation if Israel.

The conspiracy in question is the rehabilitation of Hitler and Nazism. Let's face it, a political credo that brought it's nation to a smoking heap of rubble is a hard sell in the best of times. No matter how they pitch the idea, somebody always asks, why did the Nazis kill so many of their own people and steal all their stuff?

There really is no answer that won't lose about 90% of the crowd.

The solution is plain to see. The number of deaths has to be reduced until it becomes statistically insignificant against the background of a world war. If one scrapes away at any holocaust denial screed, it will be found to be a front for Nazi revival and anti-Semitism. By anti-Semitism, I mean the crazy kind where Jews supposedly control all the banks in the world and eat babies.

Posters such as our OP show up on forums regularly. They post their links and slink away, because they know the reception it will get. They aren't looking for a meaningful discussion. They just want to get the clicks for their sad little website.
 

Keith&Co.

Contributor
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Messages
22,444
Location
Far Western Mass
Gender
Here.
Basic Beliefs
I'm here...
Well, that's obvious, Tom. imagine if the pagans had thought to create a Holocaust of their own back in the 1690s. What sort of world would we have if they'd convinced the world that religious conservatives in Salem, Massachusetts, had not murdered 20 witches, but 2 million?
The Witches would have their own state and Christains would actually be as persecuted as they claim to be right now.
 

dystopian

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2006
Messages
2,065
Location
Amsterdam, the Netherlands
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
Okay, so for example in my country, there were around 140,000 Jews before the onset of world war 2 (Almost 80,000 of which lived in Amsterdam). We know this because the Dutch government recorded religious affiliation in its census; which turned out to be a rather bad idea, in hindsight, as the occupiers made ample use of those records. Of the approximately 107,000 Dutch jews sent to the camps only 5000 survived. Before the war, Amsterdam was known to Jews as the Jerusalem of the West and they've had a profound impact on the development and culture of the city ever since the 16th century, so much so that the city's famous and commonly used nickname (Mokum) was derived from Hebrew; world war 2 almost completely wiped out a major aspect of Amsterdam history and culture given that only a small fraction of the city's Jews survived. This isn't a matter of just 'guessing' the number, nor is it something that one could just cover up. It's a matter of public records; person A gets recorded in the Dutch census -> person A gets recorded as being deported to camp X -> person A is not recorded ever leaving camp X.

If the OP's figures were right, the Dutch jews killed in the camps would constitute more than a third of the total number of jews killed in the holocaust. Did Hitler just say: "Fuck those Dutch Jews in particular, all these other Jews we'll only kill some of."? How would one be able to explain that discrepancy if the camps only killed less than 300,000 Jews?
 

braces_for_impact

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 8, 2002
Messages
3,398
Location
Clearwater, FL.
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
Usually when I see accusations such as these, it often leads to a web of further conspiracy stories, usually involving shadowy figures in some sort of cabal making prophetic predictions, manipulating the masses, financial jiggery-pokery involving world banks, with a veneer of racism behind it all.

I've learned from a couple of conspirators I've dealt with in the past not to waste time, because their understanding of valid epistemology, standards of evidence, and logical argument is so poor as to not be worth it. The skeptic ends up researching and cross referencing, analyzing and investigating for hours at a time only to be "refuted" by a badly constructed red herring, strawman, ad hominem, shitty website, or other logical fallacy. The only possible benefit is to the audience of such an exchange, and it's one that can really be taxing on the skeptic.

What I find interesting is how rarely conspiracy theories are believed by themselves. So many times it seems like conspiracy theorist gullibly swallow so many things at once. It's no wonder they have to tell everyone, they have to regurgitate this mass quantity of stuff somehow. One guy at my work, he's sharp. He's no dumb ass. Yet, he's anti-vaccine. Anti-fluoride in the drinking water. Anti-GMO. He thinks 9-11 was an inside job. He thinks that Jews are somehow coming together and controlling world banks and starting wars for financial gain. He watches the web for New World Order stuff. Points me to the Georgia Guidestones. It goes on and on. We discuss these things, and it always comes down to "Well, you have your websites and I have mine." Ironically, he seems to think I believe whatever I'm told; he has accused that of me often. All attempts at trying to point out that there are actual standards of evidence fall on deaf ears. He likes to "follow the money" but refuses to see how writing books, blogs, making TV appearances and "documentaries", being rabidly anti-vaccine and anti-GMO could possibly provide a lucrative income.

No, conspiracy theorists are even worse than creationists. They just make me want to print out all their stupid claims just so I can stuff it back into their mouth and strangle them with their own inane thoughts.
 

skepticalbip

Contributor
Joined
Apr 21, 2004
Messages
7,215
Location
Searching for reality along the long and winding r
Basic Beliefs
Everything we know is wrong (to some degree)
What I find particularly ironic about such conspiracy theorists is that, although they believe we have all been lied to, they accept without question any statement contradicting the official record. Don't they even think to question the source of their new information, if that source itself may be a conspiracy with ulterior motives?
 

jonatha

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 17, 2002
Messages
2,521
Location
Kentucky
Basic Beliefs
Agnostic
Did Hitler just say: "Fuck those Dutch Jews in particular, all these other Jews we'll only kill some of."? How would one be able to explain that discrepancy if the camps only killed less than 300,000 Jews?

Maybe Hitler really hated wooden shoes :cheeky:
 

Bronzeage

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 27, 2011
Messages
7,493
Location
Deep South
Basic Beliefs
Pragmatic
What I find particularly ironic about such conspiracy theorists is that, although they believe we have all been lied to, they accept without question any statement contradicting the official record. Don't they even think to question the source of their new information, if that source itself may be a conspiracy with ulterior motives?

I'm always suspicious of someone who says, "everything is a lie."
 

EricK

Senior Member
Joined
May 22, 2005
Messages
536
Location
Romford, England
Basic Beliefs
Atheist
What I find particularly ironic about such conspiracy theorists is that, although they believe we have all been lied to, they accept without question any statement contradicting the official record. Don't they even think to question the source of their new information, if that source itself may be a conspiracy with ulterior motives?

I'm always suspicious of someone who says, "everything is a lie."

Ain't that the truth.
 

PyramidHead

Contributor
Joined
Aug 15, 2005
Messages
5,080
Location
RI
Basic Beliefs
Marxist-Leninist
A lot of younger people have that moment where they stumble upon a conspiracy theory for the first time, and it tweaks some kind of reward center in their brain like crazy. For me it was this goofy Fox special about the moon landing being a hoax. It was pre-internet, I think, so I just went away from it believing that I was one of the kids who knew what was what. I can forgive most people one such transgression, because as I said, the feeling of being in possession of esoteric knowledge about historical events is intoxicating for some reason. But if you're over the age of 13 and have some way of accessing Wikipedia, there's really no excuse for this shit anymore.
 

cultsmasher

Banned
Banned
Joined
Jun 18, 2015
Messages
46
Location
USA
Basic Beliefs
White National Socialism
You just wasted 6 hours on lies.
Loren Pechtel,
You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. Have you ever seen any of those TV shows they have on about the Nazis or the holocaust? I know that it is absolutely incredible that such things should be shown in "The Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave." But it is all lying propaganda horseshit! They are lying right to your FACE! With apparent pride I might add. It's utterly disgusting!

Take the lampshade made out of Jewish skin. It was PROVEN to be bullshit on a couple of occasions long ago. Also, in the documentary they have a Jew who investigated the holocaust. They SHOW him talkibng to a person at Auschwitz who ran the holocaust memorial museum there. That person TOLD him that the gas chamber there was made to look like a gas chamber after the war by the Russians. Etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

This all brings up quite a paradox. I bet you feel pretty normal. But you are utterly brainwashed and delusional. So how can you be that way and still feel "normal." Need more proof? Go to your google browser and type in, "How many Jews were deported under The Haavara Agreement." A couple websites down, you will find that question basically asked. It is hosted by "Yahoo, answers." In it, they have what they call, "The Best Answer." The person who wrote it said that 60 to 70% of German Jews were deported to Palestine. Clearly, Hitler's goal was to deport Jews. Not exterminate them. How many of those propaganda TV shows have you seen that even mentioned the haavara agreement.
 

cultsmasher

Banned
Banned
Joined
Jun 18, 2015
Messages
46
Location
USA
Basic Beliefs
White National Socialism
You need to keep in mind two old sayings. "In war, truth is the first casualty," and "History is written by the victors." There are many conspiracy theories out there. Such as the moon landings being faked, the U.S. being behind the 9-11 attacks, etc. To the best of my ability to judge, what I am going to tell you isn't one of those crackpot conspiracies. You can see something interesting by typing into your browser, "Old Red Cross documents that list concentration camp deaths." You should be able to find some old Red Cross documents that say that only about 271,000 Jews died in Nazi "concentration camps." Not 6 million.

Checking into them some, these documents were apparently classified and buried in some archive for decades. They were declassified and released sometime in the 70's. It would appear that from this standpoint, holocaust deniers did have a leg to stand on.

A few months ago on another forum I heard of a documentary that can be seen for free on the internet. It's called, "Adolf Hitler: The greatest story NEVER told." It was overly long. Six hours long in fact. It took me three or four days to watch it all. But here and there throughout it, I found information that was incredible. The holocaust was indeed largely a hoax! I can't believe the degree to which the American people have been lied to! Almost every night somewhere in TV, they have some show on about the supposedly "evil" Nazis and the atrocities they supposedly committed. It's all a bunch of lying propaganda horseshit!!!

Don't believe it? Look up the old Red Cross documents I mentioned. Watch the documentary I mentioned. Do what the makers of it invite you to do at the end of it. Which is to look up the facts for yourself.

The Nazis were bad people. They did bad things. They murdered men, women, and children. Deal with it.
Bronzeage,
Very good. Now can you say "Polly want a cracker?"
 

cultsmasher

Banned
Banned
Joined
Jun 18, 2015
Messages
46
Location
USA
Basic Beliefs
White National Socialism
The fifteen results for "Old Red Cross documents that list concentration camp deaths" are copies of your opening post.

I wish i could even say it was a surprise....

So, even if this is true, which i really doubt, what's the goal, here?
The Nazis were NOT so evil that they wiped out the equivalent of the entire population of Paraguay for racist politics, but they wiped out the entire population of Boise...for the same bullshit reason? Does that make them any less evil, or just lazier?
Keith&Co,
Copies of my post? What in the hell are you takling about. I found them long before I ever mentioned them anywhere. Admittedly, I don't read or speak German. I had to take the word of the people who posted the documents who say that they show the "concentration camp" deaths of Jews to only have been about 271,000. Not 6 million. Next, is the population of Paraguay or Bosie 271,000? Am I missing something?
 

cultsmasher

Banned
Banned
Joined
Jun 18, 2015
Messages
46
Location
USA
Basic Beliefs
White National Socialism
Wow...you found out on the internet that the Holocaust is a hoax? Tell me more!

:eating_popcorn:
Ford,
I can tell you more. But the question is, do you WANT to know the truth. If you want to know more, enter into your browser "Esienhower's Holocaust." Research it until your eyes bleed. You will find out more. But you will probably feel sorry for having done so.
 

Ford

Contributor
Joined
Nov 30, 2010
Messages
5,719
Location
'Merica
Basic Beliefs
Godless Heathen
Wow...you found out on the internet that the Holocaust is a hoax? Tell me more!

:eating_popcorn:
Ford,
I can tell you more. But the question is, do you WANT to know the truth. If you want to know more, enter into your browser "Esienhower's Holocaust." Research it until your eyes bleed. You will find out more. But you will probably feel sorry for having done so.


FYI, I was mocking you.

I don't really need to type things into my browser and read them because I've already studied German history. It was part of that whole "earning a degree in history" thing that I did. It involved lots of research and reading many of these things called "books."

Maybe you should look them up. Type the word into your browser...
 

cultsmasher

Banned
Banned
Joined
Jun 18, 2015
Messages
46
Location
USA
Basic Beliefs
White National Socialism
I must remember, at my trial for murdering a quarter of a million people in cold blood, to point out to the judge the mitigating circumstance of my not having killed six million people.

I am sure that will get the case dismissed.
bilby,
The bullshit propaganda you've been told about how many people the Nazis killed is vastly overstated. In the documentary I mentioned, they SHOW testimony from Jews who were actually IN "concentration camps." They weren't insane, drooling at the mouth, wearing straight jackets or any of that. They TELL you that things in the internment camps weren't as bad as they are generally made out to be.

For example, they SHOW pictures of swimming pools they had at some internment camps. Why do that for people you just plan to exterminate. The explanation of "show camps" doesn't work very well. Also, they SHOW you examples of "camp money" the inmates were given to buy things with. Why do that for people you just plan to exterminate. Also, those people were allowed to watch movies, form sports teams, etc. That doesn't sound like the type of thing you would do for those who are just passing through an extermination machine. There is much you don't know. Though it is a bit of a chore, you need to watch the documentary I mentioned. Then, as I said, look up the facts for yourself.
 

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
27,338
Location
The Sunshine State: The one with Crocs, not Gators
Gender
He/Him
Basic Beliefs
Strong Atheist
It seems unwise to me to take instruction in epistemology from someone whose idea of 'research' is reading Yahoo Answers, and who apparently doesn't know the difference between a browser and a search engine.

The probability that such an individual has access to privileged information, of which the majority are unaware, seems remote at best.

It seems unlikely that 'everything [cultsmasher] learned about WWII is a lie'; but it is very evident that some of it is.

Eyewitness testimony is the lowest rank of evidence.

Regardless, even if I were foolish enough to accept everything you say as true, my objection stands; your response does nothing to address my rebuttal at all.

Killing a quarter of a million people is not cause to congratulate someone on their restraint in not killing six million.
 

laughing dog

Contributor
Joined
Dec 29, 2004
Messages
21,128
Location
Minnesota
Gender
IT
Basic Beliefs
Dogs rule
You just wasted 6 hours on lies.
Loren Pechtel,
You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. Have you ever seen any of those TV shows they have on about the Nazis or the holocaust? I know that it is absolutely incredible that such things should be shown in "The Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave." But it is all lying propaganda horseshit! They are lying right to your FACE! With apparent pride I might add. It's utterly disgusting!

Take the lampshade made out of Jewish skin. It was PROVEN to be bullshit on a couple of occasions long ago. Also, in the documentary they have a Jew who investigated the holocaust. They SHOW him talkibng to a person at Auschwitz who ran the holocaust memorial museum there. That person TOLD him that the gas chamber there was made to look like a gas chamber after the war by the Russians. Etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

This all brings up quite a paradox. I bet you feel pretty normal. But you are utterly brainwashed and delusional. So how can you be that way and still feel "normal." Need more proof? Go to your google browser and type in, "How many Jews were deported under The Haavara Agreement." A couple websites down, you will find that question basically asked. It is hosted by "Yahoo, answers." In it, they have what they call, "The Best Answer." The person who wrote it said that 60 to 70% of German Jews were deported to Palestine. Clearly, Hitler's goal was to deport Jews. Not exterminate them. How many of those propaganda TV shows have you seen that even mentioned the haavara agreement.
You are claiming that
1) all the survivors of those camps lied about their experiences,
2) the Nazi documentation was faked,
3) the testimony of camp personnel was faked or that they all lied,
4) the Allied liberators all lied about what they saw, and that their footage was faked, and
5) the observed decimation of Jewish communities was due to other factors.

Until you can come with real evidence to support those claims, it is reasonable to conclude that you are severely mistaken.

As an aside, I have met some survivors of those camps and liberators of those camps. I seriously doubt they are the liars or fakers you are implicitly claiming.

ETA: this site (http://www.nationalww2museum.org/lea...holocaust.html) has the estimated lower and upper bounds of Jews killed by the Nazis by nationality. In addition, another 5 million non-Jews (homosexuals, Roma, political prisoners, Communists and other "undesirables") died in concentration and extermination camps.
 

cultsmasher

Banned
Banned
Joined
Jun 18, 2015
Messages
46
Location
USA
Basic Beliefs
White National Socialism
I must remember, at my trial for murdering a quarter of a million people in cold blood, to point out to the judge the mitigating circumstance of my not having killed six million people.

I am sure that will get the case dismissed.

The important thing to bear in mind is that if there is an error of 5.75 million in the original figure, then is it too hard to believe there is an error of just 1 million in this revised figure. Maybe the Nazis created three quarters of a million Jews.
ericK,
Even those who would like to continue the myth of the holocaust were forced to admit that there were 2.5 million fewer deaths at Auschwitz than previously believed. But they still stick with the 6 million figure. In the documentary I mentioned, they show seven different newspaper articles. They appeared in various newspapers between the years of 1915 to 1939. They talked about something bad happening to 6 million Jews. I guess that when a lie works, stick with it.

In one of those bullshit WW II propaganda shows, they show something that probably is true. They were interviewing a number of Jews who sought revenge after WW II. They managed to poison a number of captive ex-SS troops. Apparently they had a plan to poison the water supply of some German cities. They wanted to kill 6 million Germans. They were all sorry that they didn't go through with the plan. But what if they had. To what ends would the U.S. go to perpetuate they myth of the holocaust to protect their Jewish masters.
 

cultsmasher

Banned
Banned
Joined
Jun 18, 2015
Messages
46
Location
USA
Basic Beliefs
White National Socialism
What would be the point of this conspiracy? I mean that from the point of view of the conspirators.

I get the rationales for other conspiracies. The US faked the moon landing so that they could display their scientific prowes as a Cold War propaganda tool. The CIA framed Oswald to cover up their own assasianation of a President. Bush blew up the Twin Towers in order to give the US a reason to go to war.

At the end of WWII, however, apparently people got together and said "Slaughtering 400,000 innocent people seems to be a bit of a doddle. Let's pretend it was 6,000,000 so that people will be horrified at what the Nazis did as opposed to only being minorly miffed". I just don't get how inflating the first number to the second number really accomplishes anything for them so that it would be worth the trouble. If it turns out that this is true, I really don't know why they would have bothered.
Tom Sawyer,
The U.S. had many good reasons for saying that 6 million Jews were gassed. It's just that lies are always bad. And the bigger the lie, the worse it is.
 

cultsmasher

Banned
Banned
Joined
Jun 18, 2015
Messages
46
Location
USA
Basic Beliefs
White National Socialism
What would be the point of this conspiracy? I mean that from the point of view of the conspirators.

I get the rationales for other conspiracies. The US faked the moon landing so that they could display their scientific prowes as a Cold War propaganda tool. The CIA framed Oswald to cover up their own assasianation of a President. Bush blew up the Twin Towers in order to give the US a reason to go to war.

At the end of WWII, however, apparently people got together and said "Slaughtering 400,000 innocent people seems to be a bit of a doddle. Let's pretend it was 6,000,000 so that people will be horrified at what the Nazis did as opposed to only being minorly miffed". I just don't get how inflating the first number to the second number really accomplishes anything for them so that it would be worth the trouble. If it turns out that this is true, I really don't know why they would have bothered.

The conspiracy here is not to create the illusion of a holocaust, and thus give political license for everything from the division of Germany to the creation if Israel.

The conspiracy in question is the rehabilitation of Hitler and Nazism. Let's face it, a political credo that brought it's nation to a smoking heap of rubble is a hard sell in the best of times. No matter how they pitch the idea, somebody always asks, why did the Nazis kill so many of their own people and steal all their stuff?

There really is no answer that won't lose about 90% of the crowd.

The solution is plain to see. The number of deaths has to be reduced until it becomes statistically insignificant against the background of a world war. If one scrapes away at any holocaust denial screed, it will be found to be a front for Nazi revival and anti-Semitism. By anti-Semitism, I mean the crazy kind where Jews supposedly control all the banks in the world and eat babies.

Posters such as our OP show up on forums regularly. They post their links and slink away, because they know the reception it will get. They aren't looking for a meaningful discussion. They just want to get the clicks for their sad little website.
Bronzeage,
There are many reason why the illusion of a holocaust was created. All of them are bad. Next, there were plans to revive the state of Israel long before WW II started. Hitler was a large part of creating the modern state of Israel. Next, the devision of Germany had nothing to do with the holocaust. It had to do with the ideologies of Capitalism and Communism.

Next, national socialism didn't cause Germany to be a pile of rubble. War did. A war that shouldn't have been fought to begin with. Next, you are right about most people being brainwashed. But that shouldn't keep people from speaking the truth. As to some of the rest of what you say, I will be getting around to that by and by.

Next, you start in on the smear campaign. Don't compare me to other OP's. You will find me to be a different kettle of fish. I never have never slinked away from any forum. And because nobody can defeate me in debate, they usually end up banning me for some bullshit reason or another.
 

cultsmasher

Banned
Banned
Joined
Jun 18, 2015
Messages
46
Location
USA
Basic Beliefs
White National Socialism
Okay, so for example in my country, there were around 140,000 Jews before the onset of world war 2 (Almost 80,000 of which lived in Amsterdam). We know this because the Dutch government recorded religious affiliation in its census; which turned out to be a rather bad idea, in hindsight, as the occupiers made ample use of those records. Of the approximately 107,000 Dutch jews sent to the camps only 5000 survived. Before the war, Amsterdam was known to Jews as the Jerusalem of the West and they've had a profound impact on the development and culture of the city ever since the 16th century, so much so that the city's famous and commonly used nickname (Mokum) was derived from Hebrew; world war 2 almost completely wiped out a major aspect of Amsterdam history and culture given that only a small fraction of the city's Jews survived. This isn't a matter of just 'guessing' the number, nor is it something that one could just cover up. It's a matter of public records; person A gets recorded in the Dutch census -> person A gets recorded as being deported to camp X -> person A is not recorded ever leaving camp X.

If the OP's figures were right, the Dutch jews killed in the camps would constitute more than a third of the total number of jews killed in the holocaust. Did Hitler just say: "Fuck those Dutch Jews in particular, all these other Jews we'll only kill some of."? How would one be able to explain that discrepancy if the camps only killed less than 300,000 Jews?
dystopian,
I don't know anything about Dutch Jews. Where they might have gone or where they might have ended up. But if Hitler didn't exterminate most of the German Jews, I doubt if he did the so with the Dutch Jews. There is only one thing I do know. That whatever you may have learned about WW II is a lie. For example, there is what I was telling somebody else around here. Between 1915 and 1939, there were several articles that appeared in various newspapers. They talked about something bad happening to 6 million Jews. I guess if a lie works, stick with it.

In the documentary I mentioned, they talked about a couple people who did tests for traces of Zyklon B in the gas chambers of Auschwitz. None was found. But in rooms that were known to have used Zyklon B to disinfect clothing, the readings went right off the chart. Another "death camp" where gas was never used was Buchenwald. If gas wan't used to kill Jews in those places, it is highly unlikely that it was used anywhere to exterminate hordes of Jews.
 

cultsmasher

Banned
Banned
Joined
Jun 18, 2015
Messages
46
Location
USA
Basic Beliefs
White National Socialism
Usually when I see accusations such as these, it often leads to a web of further conspiracy stories, usually involving shadowy figures in some sort of cabal making prophetic predictions, manipulating the masses, financial jiggery-pokery involving world banks, with a veneer of racism behind it all.

I've learned from a couple of conspirators I've dealt with in the past not to waste time, because their understanding of valid epistemology, standards of evidence, and logical argument is so poor as to not be worth it. The skeptic ends up researching and cross referencing, analyzing and investigating for hours at a time only to be "refuted" by a badly constructed red herring, strawman, ad hominem, shitty website, or other logical fallacy. The only possible benefit is to the audience of such an exchange, and it's one that can really be taxing on the skeptic.

What I find interesting is how rarely conspiracy theories are believed by themselves. So many times it seems like conspiracy theorist gullibly swallow so many things at once. It's no wonder they have to tell everyone, they have to regurgitate this mass quantity of stuff somehow. One guy at my work, he's sharp. He's no dumb ass. Yet, he's anti-vaccine. Anti-fluoride in the drinking water. Anti-GMO. He thinks 9-11 was an inside job. He thinks that Jews are somehow coming together and controlling world banks and starting wars for financial gain. He watches the web for New World Order stuff. Points me to the Georgia Guidestones. It goes on and on. We discuss these things, and it always comes down to "Well, you have your websites and I have mine." Ironically, he seems to think I believe whatever I'm told; he has accused that of me often. All attempts at trying to point out that there are actual standards of evidence fall on deaf ears. He likes to "follow the money" but refuses to see how writing books, blogs, making TV appearances and "documentaries", being rabidly anti-vaccine and anti-GMO could possibly provide a lucrative income.

No, conspiracy theorists are even worse than creationists. They just make me want to print out all their stupid claims just so I can stuff it back into their mouth and strangle them with their own inane thoughts.
bracesforimpact,
As I said in my thread, there are many wacko conspiracy theories out there. But as far as I have been able to find out, the holocaust hoax isn't one of them. For example, I found out that the stuff about a lampshade being made out of Jew skin was just more slanderous bullshit. "Somebody" is trying real hard to slander the Nazis. Unfortunately, they succeeded. But truth tends to rise to the surface eventually.
 

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
27,338
Location
The Sunshine State: The one with Crocs, not Gators
Gender
He/Him
Basic Beliefs
Strong Atheist
The conspiracy here is not to create the illusion of a holocaust, and thus give political license for everything from the division of Germany to the creation if Israel.

The conspiracy in question is the rehabilitation of Hitler and Nazism. Let's face it, a political credo that brought it's nation to a smoking heap of rubble is a hard sell in the best of times. No matter how they pitch the idea, somebody always asks, why did the Nazis kill so many of their own people and steal all their stuff?

There really is no answer that won't lose about 90% of the crowd.

The solution is plain to see. The number of deaths has to be reduced until it becomes statistically insignificant against the background of a world war. If one scrapes away at any holocaust denial screed, it will be found to be a front for Nazi revival and anti-Semitism. By anti-Semitism, I mean the crazy kind where Jews supposedly control all the banks in the world and eat babies.

Posters such as our OP show up on forums regularly. They post their links and slink away, because they know the reception it will get. They aren't looking for a meaningful discussion. They just want to get the clicks for their sad little website.
Bronzeage,
There are many reason why the illusion of a holocaust was created. All of them are bad. Next, there were plans to revive the state of Israel long before WW II started. Hitler was a large part of creating the modern state of Israel. Next, the devision of Germany had nothing to do with the holocaust. It had to do with the ideologies of Capitalism and Communism.

Next, national socialism didn't cause Germany to be a pile of rubble. War did. A war that shouldn't have been fought to begin with. Next, you are right about most people being brainwashed. But that shouldn't keep people from speaking the truth. As to some of the rest of what you say, I will be getting around to that by and by.

Next, you start in on the smear campaign. Don't compare me to other OP's. You will find me to be a different kettle of fish. I never have never slinked away from any forum. And because nobody can defeate me in debate, they usually end up banning me for some bullshit reason or another.

An obstinate unwillingness to admit when you are beaten is not the same thing as 'nobody can defeate (sic) me in debate'.

You have so far made a number of assertions, all of which are implausible - for them to be true would imply your having access to information that is not widely available; but you claim that the information is available on the Internet. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, but so far you have shown no evidence at all, other than hints that supposed eyewitness testimonies exist that counter the large body of eyewitness testimony you wish us to discard (despite your having given no compelling reason to discard the majority testimony); and that these claims also counter the physical evidence, census evidence and other primary documentary evidence for the deliberate killing of millions. Yahoo! Answers is not a reliable primary source. Referring people to search terms that they can Google is not the same as providing evidence. If there are particular websites that contain evidence you wish to present, post links (or if, as a new member, you can't post links yet, post the URLs as text).

You yourself estimate that hundreds of thousands of Jews were killed, so even if we were to accept your sketchy evidence, this would not make any difference to the overall conclusion - that Nazism was a murderous cult that lead to the destruction of Germany, massive destruction in the Soviet Union and Western Europe, and the deliberate killing by the regime of its own citizens - albeit in smaller numbers than is widely believed.

Why, then, is it important to you that we should come around to your view? What hard evidence can you present that your view is correct - and that the difference between your view and the more commonly held opinion is important or significant? What difference would it make if you were correct? What actions would we take, or stop taking, if we accepted your assertion that 'only' a quarter million Jews were murdered by the Nazis?
 

cultsmasher

Banned
Banned
Joined
Jun 18, 2015
Messages
46
Location
USA
Basic Beliefs
White National Socialism
What I find particularly ironic about such conspiracy theorists is that, although they believe we have all been lied to, they accept without question any statement contradicting the official record. Don't they even think to question the source of their new information, if that source itself may be a conspiracy with ulterior motives?
skepticalbip,
I didn't accept much without question. Some of the things I looked up for myself. In the documentary I mentioned, they SHOW you examples of "camp money." Why do that for people who you just plan to exterminate as quickly as they can be brought in. In the documentary they SHOW people who were actually IN "concentration camps." They TELL you that conditions in the camps weren't as bad as they are generally made out to be.

They also SHOW a Jewish investigator question the person who RAN the Auschwitz holocaust memorial museum at the camp. That person TOLD him that their gas chamber was made to look like a gas chamber by the Russians AFTER the war. Etc. etc. etc. etc. I can't say for sure if these things are true. Because I didn't personally question these people or go to see for myself. But considering the other things I did find out on my own, I think it is likely they were telling the truth.
 

cultsmasher

Banned
Banned
Joined
Jun 18, 2015
Messages
46
Location
USA
Basic Beliefs
White National Socialism
A lot of younger people have that moment where they stumble upon a conspiracy theory for the first time, and it tweaks some kind of reward center in their brain like crazy. For me it was this goofy Fox special about the moon landing being a hoax. It was pre-internet, I think, so I just went away from it believing that I was one of the kids who knew what was what. I can forgive most people one such transgression, because as I said, the feeling of being in possession of esoteric knowledge about historical events is intoxicating for some reason. But if you're over the age of 13 and have some way of accessing Wikipedia, there's really no excuse for this shit anymore.
PyramydHead,
Some people are gullible. But the stuff about the holocaust largely being a hoax is true.
 

cultsmasher

Banned
Banned
Joined
Jun 18, 2015
Messages
46
Location
USA
Basic Beliefs
White National Socialism
Ford,
I can tell you more. But the question is, do you WANT to know the truth. If you want to know more, enter into your browser "Esienhower's Holocaust." Research it until your eyes bleed. You will find out more. But you will probably feel sorry for having done so.


FYI, I was mocking you.

I don't really need to type things into my browser and read them because I've already studied German history. It was part of that whole "earning a degree in history" thing that I did. It involved lots of research and reading many of these things called "books."

Maybe you should look them up. Type the word into your browser...
Ford,
Just a warning, I especially enjoy smashing the various cults of those who have a status quo supporting "Bo Peep" diploma. What makes it especially satisfying is that I dropped out of high school in my third year with three years of credits to make up for. I have written many threads at many forums. Until I was banned. I was only successfully refuted in one of them. It was a rather flippant thread in which I accused the actress Melissa Joan Hart of dating a negro. That in part is what can happen when you believe somebody elses bullshit. Apart from that, I have debated hundreds of people. With many hundreds more back and forth debates. Nobody was ever able to sucessfully refute anything I said in any of my other threads. I can't wait for you to try too.

But it would have been helpful if you took my suggestion and looked up "Esienhower's Holocaust." The way they treated German ex-soldiers that they held prosoner of ex-war was pretty bad. Especially given the fact that the holocaust was largely a hoax. For example, I have something else for you to not look up. Don't enter into your google browser, "How many Jews were deported under The Haavara Agreement." Because you would find that question basically asked a couple websites down. It is hosted by "Yahoo, answers." In it they have what they call "The Best Answer." The person who wrote it said that Germany deported 60 to 70% of its Jews. That isn't much of a "final solution." God forbid that you should check up on the matter at other websites. You could find your holocaust affirming cult smashed.
 

cultsmasher

Banned
Banned
Joined
Jun 18, 2015
Messages
46
Location
USA
Basic Beliefs
White National Socialism
bilby,
You kill me! What makes you think Hitler caused anybody to be executed. Some probably were. But it would be far better for somebody to have only killed a quarter of a million people rather than 6 million. That is, generally speaking. Jews are a different matter. Near the end of the war, Germany had the hell bombed out of it. Things got pretty bad for Germans in general. Things were no doubt worse in internment camps. With things going on like lack of food, typhus outbreaks and who knows what other things. There is a difference between having people die from such thinga in wartime or outright being executed.
 

laughing dog

Contributor
Joined
Dec 29, 2004
Messages
21,128
Location
Minnesota
Gender
IT
Basic Beliefs
Dogs rule
bilby,
You kill me! What makes you think Hitler caused anybody to be executed. Some probably were. But it would be far better for somebody to have only killed a quarter of a million people rather than 6 million. That is, generally speaking. Jews are a different matter. Near the end of the war, Germany had the hell bombed out of it. Things got pretty bad for Germans in general. Things were no doubt worse in internment camps. With things going on like lack of food, typhus outbreaks and who knows what other things. There is a difference between having people die from such thinga in wartime or outright being executed.
The Nazis killed an estimated 11 million people of which 6 milllion are estimated to be Jews. This is pretty much been established through serious research.
 

cultsmasher

Banned
Banned
Joined
Jun 18, 2015
Messages
46
Location
USA
Basic Beliefs
White National Socialism
Loren Pechtel,
You couldn't be more wrong if you tried. Have you ever seen any of those TV shows they have on about the Nazis or the holocaust? I know that it is absolutely incredible that such things should be shown in "The Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave." But it is all lying propaganda horseshit! They are lying right to your FACE! With apparent pride I might add. It's utterly disgusting!

Take the lampshade made out of Jewish skin. It was PROVEN to be bullshit on a couple of occasions long ago. Also, in the documentary they have a Jew who investigated the holocaust. They SHOW him talkibng to a person at Auschwitz who ran the holocaust memorial museum there. That person TOLD him that the gas chamber there was made to look like a gas chamber after the war by the Russians. Etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

This all brings up quite a paradox. I bet you feel pretty normal. But you are utterly brainwashed and delusional. So how can you be that way and still feel "normal." Need more proof? Go to your google browser and type in, "How many Jews were deported under The Haavara Agreement." A couple websites down, you will find that question basically asked. It is hosted by "Yahoo, answers." In it, they have what they call, "The Best Answer." The person who wrote it said that 60 to 70% of German Jews were deported to Palestine. Clearly, Hitler's goal was to deport Jews. Not exterminate them. How many of those propaganda TV shows have you seen that even mentioned the haavara agreement.
You are claiming that
1) all the survivors of those camps lied about their experiences,
2) the Nazi documentation was faked,
3) the testimony of camp personnel was faked or that they all lied,
4) the Allied liberators all lied about what they saw, and that their footage was faked, and
5) the observed decimation of Jewish communities was due to other factors.

Until you can come with real evidence to support those claims, it is reasonable to conclude that you are severely mistaken.

As an aside, I have met some survivors of those camps and liberators of those camps. I seriously doubt they are the liars or fakers you are implicitly claiming.

ETA: this site (http://www.nationalww2museum.org/lea...holocaust.html) has the estimated lower and upper bounds of Jews killed by the Nazis by nationality. In addition, another 5 million non-Jews (homosexuals, Roma, political prisoners, Communists and other "undesirables") died in concentration and extermination camps.
Laughing dog,
I will answer most of what you say in anither thread. Keep an eye out for it. I will call it, "Holocaust Deniers: Why Would They Lie." In the meantime, if the numbers of Jews who were killed was bullshit, and it was, what makes you think that the other things aren't mostly lies too. I suggested that "Ford" look something up and check out the information through other websites. But he apparently was afraid to do so. Maybe you will. Look up "Esienhower's Holocaust." After the war in Europe, our forces held German ex-soldiers as prisoner of ex-war. 1.5 to 1.7 of them were killed. The U.S. had plenty of food and things. So those people were basically murdered. It was a much more evil deed than anything the Germans ever did.
 

cultsmasher

Banned
Banned
Joined
Jun 18, 2015
Messages
46
Location
USA
Basic Beliefs
White National Socialism
Tom Sawyer,
The U.S. had many good reasons for saying that 6 million Jews were gassed. It's just that lies are always bad. And the bigger the lie, the worse it is.
Not according to Josef Goebbels.
Laughingdog,
I think I know what you're talking about. It is a saying that didn't originate with the Nazis. It is, "The bigger the lie, the more likely people are to believe it." It is mostly just a statement of fact rather than an exemplification for lying.
 

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
27,338
Location
The Sunshine State: The one with Crocs, not Gators
Gender
He/Him
Basic Beliefs
Strong Atheist
bilby,
You kill me! What makes you think Hitler caused anybody to be executed.
...

Well, just for starters, there was this:
The Commando Order (German: Kommandobefehl) was issued by Adolf Hitler on 18 October 1942 stating that all Allied commandos encountered by German forces in Europe and Africa should be killed immediately without trial, even in proper uniforms or if they attempted to surrender.
(source)

And this:
The Commissar Order (German: Kommissarbefehl) was an order issued by Adolf Hitler on 6 June 1941 before Operation Barbarossa. Its official name was Guidelines for the Treatment of Political Commissars (Richtlinien für die Behandlung politischer Kommissare). It demanded that any Soviet political commissar identified among captured troops be summarily executed as an enforcer of the Communist ideology and the Soviet Communist Party line in military forces.
(source)

These are well documented; the Third Reich was a very modern and well organised bureaucracy, and as a result, orders were widely copied and distributed. Many copies still exist.
 

laughing dog

Contributor
Joined
Dec 29, 2004
Messages
21,128
Location
Minnesota
Gender
IT
Basic Beliefs
Dogs rule
Laughing dog,
I will answer most of what you say in anither thread. Keep an eye out for it. I will call it, "Holocaust Deniers: Why Would They Lie."
Sorry, when you impugn the integrity of holocaust survivors whose testimony has been vetted, you have entered into a venal la-la land.
In the meantime, if the numbers of Jews who were killed was bullshit, and it was, what makes you think that the other things aren't mostly lies too.
Well, because your premise is false (i.e. the number of Jews who were killed is bullshit).
I suggested that "Ford" look something up and check out the information through other websites. But he apparently was afraid to do so. Maybe you will. Look up "Esienhower's Holocaust." After the war in Europe, our forces held German ex-soldiers as prisoner of ex-war. 1.5 to 1.7 of them were killed. The U.S. had plenty of food and things. So those people were basically murdered. It was a much more evil deed than anything the Germans ever did.
I suggest you read  Other_Losses and then consult the original research that refutes your claims about the number of German POWs who were killed or "missing". While there is no doubt that many German POWS were mistreated, there claim that the Eisenhower or the US acted in a callous and deliberate manner to starve and kill over 1 million German POWS lacks credible evidence.

Regardless, your attempt to say the the Allies were the same is irrelevant to the issue that the Nazis deliberately had an estimated 11 million "undesirables" (Jews, homosexuals, Roma, mentally slow, Communists, and others) killed. It is true that we do not have an exact number and never will. But that does not diminish the evil of those acts.
 

cultsmasher

Banned
Banned
Joined
Jun 18, 2015
Messages
46
Location
USA
Basic Beliefs
White National Socialism
Bronzeage,
There are many reason why the illusion of a holocaust was created. All of them are bad. Next, there were plans to revive the state of Israel long before WW II started. Hitler was a large part of creating the modern state of Israel. Next, the devision of Germany had nothing to do with the holocaust. It had to do with the ideologies of Capitalism and Communism.

Next, national socialism didn't cause Germany to be a pile of rubble. War did. A war that shouldn't have been fought to begin with. Next, you are right about most people being brainwashed. But that shouldn't keep people from speaking the truth. As to some of the rest of what you say, I will be getting around to that by and by.

Next, you start in on the smear campaign. Don't compare me to other OP's. You will find me to be a different kettle of fish. I never have never slinked away from any forum. And because nobody can defeate me in debate, they usually end up banning me for some bullshit reason or another.

An obstinate unwillingness to admit when you are beaten is not the same thing as 'nobody can defeate (sic) me in debate'.

You have so far made a number of assertions, all of which are implausible - for them to be true would imply your having access to information that is not widely available; but you claim that the information is available on the Internet. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, but so far you have shown no evidence at all, other than hints that supposed eyewitness testimonies exist that counter the large body of eyewitness testimony you wish us to discard (despite your having given no compelling reason to discard the majority testimony); and that these claims also counter the physical evidence, census evidence and other primary documentary evidence for the deliberate killing of millions. Yahoo! Answers is not a reliable primary source. Referring people to search terms that they can Google is not the same as providing evidence. If there are particular websites that contain evidence you wish to present, post links (or if, as a new member, you can't post links yet, post the URLs as text).

You yourself estimate that hundreds of thousands of Jews were killed, so even if we were to accept your sketchy evidence, this would not make any difference to the overall conclusion - that Nazism was a murderous cult that lead to the destruction of Germany, massive destruction in the Soviet Union and Western Europe, and the deliberate killing by the regime of its own citizens - albeit in smaller numbers than is widely believed.

Why, then, is it important to you that we should come around to your view? What hard evidence can you present that your view is correct - and that the difference between your view and the more commonly held opinion is important or significant? What difference would it make if you were correct? What actions would we take, or stop taking, if we accepted your assertion that 'only' a quarter million Jews were murdered by the Nazis?
bilby,
Give me time. I am just getting warmed up. As for this thread, nobody has sucessfully refuted me yet. But with some things, it is like debating the reality of human caused global warming with a global warming denier. No answwer you give is good enough. As for what any experts may have to say, they aren't expert enough. If you don't want to believe me, fine. Look this stuff up for yourself. But if your mindset is that 6 million Jews were gassed, I doubt if it will do any good.
 

Bronzeage

Super Moderator
Staff member
Joined
Apr 27, 2011
Messages
7,493
Location
Deep South
Basic Beliefs
Pragmatic
[Q
Give me time. I am just getting warmed up. As for this thread, nobody has sucessfully refuted me yet. But with some things, it is like debating the reality of human caused global warming with a global warming denier. No answwer you give is good enough. As for what any experts may have to say, they aren't expert enough. If you don't want to believe me, fine. Look this stuff up for yourself. But if your mindset is that 6 million Jews were gassed, I doubt if it will do any good.

So if someone refuted you, you would change your position and decide that everything you learned about WW2 is true?


My only question about all of this, is whether you believe it yourself, or are you just trying to dupe people who don't know any better? Neither is very good for you, but I'm curious.
 

cultsmasher

Banned
Banned
Joined
Jun 18, 2015
Messages
46
Location
USA
Basic Beliefs
White National Socialism
bilby,
You kill me! What makes you think Hitler caused anybody to be executed. Some probably were. But it would be far better for somebody to have only killed a quarter of a million people rather than 6 million. That is, generally speaking. Jews are a different matter. Near the end of the war, Germany had the hell bombed out of it. Things got pretty bad for Germans in general. Things were no doubt worse in internment camps. With things going on like lack of food, typhus outbreaks and who knows what other things. There is a difference between having people die from such thinga in wartime or outright being executed.
The Nazis killed an estimated 11 million people of which 6 milllion are estimated to be Jews. This is pretty much been established through serious research.

Laughingdog,
Here's the thing. Hitler may not have been perfect. But as far as you and most other people are concerned, he was a GOD! If the U.S. didn't do everything it could do to slander him, we would be flying a Nazi flag. Also, in the early 30's, Stalin caused up to 10 million Ukrainians to starve to death. He didn't even need "death camps" to do it. That on top of his many other atrocities. Hitler was an angel compared to Stalin. Yot who did we back. Also, what you call "serious research" I call "serious bullshit."
 

zorq

Veteran Member
Joined
May 9, 2002
Messages
1,707
Location
Republic of Korea
Basic Beliefs
Atheist, Moderate
I don't know if I can believe you cult smasher, because I was fooled once before.

I saw a series of films produced with intricate detail that detailed the lives of a secretive group of people living in Great Britain. These people deliberately hid in the shadows and had their own specialized schools, shops, and even transportation.

One movie showed me the actual currency that these people used apparently they distrust the pound and prefer to use gold and silver coins whenever they make transactions with one another. One movie told me the secret words they used when they would summon their buses and taxis which would shuttle them around the city of London and the surrounding countryside.

I couldn't believe that nobody had heard about these people before, but their existence started to come to light when a book was published in 1997. This book was telling expose of one of this groups most prominent and secretive schools hidden in a quaint valley north of London. I read this book and couldn't believe the startling detail and shocking acts the students and teachers would perform. Apparently this group believes in occult practices and think they can do all kinds of mystical things like foretell the future and acquire aspects of animals after they perform certain rituals.

Further research on the internet including some queries I made on AskJeeves confirmed the existence of this queer xenophobic clan.

It turns out that all the details and testimony that went into the production of the movies and books were lies. I was so disappointed. None of it was true. Spectacular dialogues with actual members of this hidden cult and it turns out they were paid actors. Even the author of the first book admitted she had made the whole thing up.

Well I swore to myself that I would never be tricked again.

From now on I need REAL evidence that can't be faked by paid actors, detailed props, and anonymous internet testimony.
Can you provide me the evidence I need cultsmasher? Or is it possible you are just as duped as I was.


And that dirty J.K. Rowling and her Harry Potter books can just go rot in hell.

 

bilby

Fair dinkum thinkum
Joined
Mar 7, 2007
Messages
27,338
Location
The Sunshine State: The one with Crocs, not Gators
Gender
He/Him
Basic Beliefs
Strong Atheist
An obstinate unwillingness to admit when you are beaten is not the same thing as 'nobody can defeate (sic) me in debate'.

You have so far made a number of assertions, all of which are implausible - for them to be true would imply your having access to information that is not widely available; but you claim that the information is available on the Internet. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, but so far you have shown no evidence at all, other than hints that supposed eyewitness testimonies exist that counter the large body of eyewitness testimony you wish us to discard (despite your having given no compelling reason to discard the majority testimony); and that these claims also counter the physical evidence, census evidence and other primary documentary evidence for the deliberate killing of millions. Yahoo! Answers is not a reliable primary source. Referring people to search terms that they can Google is not the same as providing evidence. If there are particular websites that contain evidence you wish to present, post links (or if, as a new member, you can't post links yet, post the URLs as text).

You yourself estimate that hundreds of thousands of Jews were killed, so even if we were to accept your sketchy evidence, this would not make any difference to the overall conclusion - that Nazism was a murderous cult that lead to the destruction of Germany, massive destruction in the Soviet Union and Western Europe, and the deliberate killing by the regime of its own citizens - albeit in smaller numbers than is widely believed.

Why, then, is it important to you that we should come around to your view? What hard evidence can you present that your view is correct - and that the difference between your view and the more commonly held opinion is important or significant? What difference would it make if you were correct? What actions would we take, or stop taking, if we accepted your assertion that 'only' a quarter million Jews were murdered by the Nazis?
bilby,
Give me time. I am just getting warmed up. As for this thread, nobody has sucessfully refuted me yet. But with some things, it is like debating the reality of human caused global warming with a global warming denier. No answwer you give is good enough. As for what any experts may have to say, they aren't expert enough. If you don't want to believe me, fine. Look this stuff up for yourself. But if your mindset is that 6 million Jews were gassed, I doubt if it will do any good.

You have yet to present anything other than bald assertions, so refutation isn't on the table - that which is asserted without evidence may be dismissed without evidence.

And you haven't answered my questions:

Why is it important to you that we should come around to your view?
What hard evidence can you present that your view is correct - and that the difference between your view and the more commonly held opinion is important or significant?
What difference would it make if you were correct?
What actions would we take, or stop taking, if we accept your assertion that 'only' a quarter million Jews were murdered by the Nazis?
 

cultsmasher

Banned
Banned
Joined
Jun 18, 2015
Messages
46
Location
USA
Basic Beliefs
White National Socialism
Well, just for starters, there was this:
The Commando Order (German: Kommandobefehl) was issued by Adolf Hitler on 18 October 1942 stating that all Allied commandos encountered by German forces in Europe and Africa should be killed immediately without trial, even in proper uniforms or if they attempted to surrender.
(source)

And this:
The Commissar Order (German: Kommissarbefehl) was an order issued by Adolf Hitler on 6 June 1941 before Operation Barbarossa. Its official name was Guidelines for the Treatment of Political Commissars (Richtlinien für die Behandlung politischer Kommissare). It demanded that any Soviet political commissar identified among captured troops be summarily executed as an enforcer of the Communist ideology and the Soviet Communist Party line in military forces.
(source)

These are well documented; the Third Reich was a very modern and well organised bureaucracy, and as a result, orders were widely copied and distributed. Many copies still exist.

bilby,
Orders to execute enemy soldiers under certain conditions is far from rare in warfare. Next, as far as executing Russians, the more of those barbaric brainwashed animals were killed, the better. Next, do you remember my saying that the victors write history? Not to say what you mentioned was fake. But do you suppose the victors might include forgery to see that theur version of history prevails? Also, after the war the U.S. dumped huge amounts of money into European countries that it controlled under the Marshall plan. Who in their right mind that would like part of that money or be grateful for benifiting from any part of it say anything aginst the American version of things.
 

laughing dog

Contributor
Joined
Dec 29, 2004
Messages
21,128
Location
Minnesota
Gender
IT
Basic Beliefs
Dogs rule
The Nazis killed an estimated 11 million people of which 6 milllion are estimated to be Jews. This is pretty much been established through serious research.

Laughingdog,
Here's the thing. Hitler may not have been perfect. But as far as you and most other people are concerned, he was a GOD! If the U.S. didn't do everything it could do to slander him, we would be flying a Nazi flag. Also, in the early 30's, Stalin caused up to 10 million Ukrainians to starve to death. He didn't even need "death camps" to do it. That on top of his many other atrocities. Hitler was an angel compared to Stalin. Yot who did we back.
I fail to see any relevance to the issue of how many people the Nazis killed. For some odd reason, you think the Nazis did not even kill 1 million Jews. So what happened to all those Jews?
Also, what you call "serious research" I call "serious bullshit."
You can call it anything you like, but that doesn't make it any less accurate. Until you can provide something other than internet bravado, I will take the results from scholars like Martin Gilbert over the ravings of yet another pathetic Holocaust denier.
 

cultsmasher

Banned
Banned
Joined
Jun 18, 2015
Messages
46
Location
USA
Basic Beliefs
White National Socialism
Sorry, when you impugn the integrity of holocaust survivors whose testimony has been vetted, you have entered into a venal la-la land.
In the meantime, if the numbers of Jews who were killed was bullshit, and it was, what makes you think that the other things aren't mostly lies too.
Well, because your premise is false (i.e. the number of Jews who were killed is bullshit).
I suggested that "Ford" look something up and check out the information through other websites. But he apparently was afraid to do so. Maybe you will. Look up "Esienhower's Holocaust." After the war in Europe, our forces held German ex-soldiers as prisoner of ex-war. 1.5 to 1.7 of them were killed. The U.S. had plenty of food and things. So those people were basically murdered. It was a much more evil deed than anything the Germans ever did.
I suggest you read  Other_Losses and then consult the original research that refutes your claims about the number of German POWs who were killed or "missing". While there is no doubt that many German POWS were mistreated, there claim that the Eisenhower or the US acted in a callous and deliberate manner to starve and kill over 1 million German POWS lacks credible evidence.

Regardless, your attempt to say the the Allies were the same is irrelevant to the issue that the Nazis deliberately had an estimated 11 million "undesirables" (Jews, homosexuals, Roma, mentally slow, Communists, and others) killed. It is true that we do not have an exact number and never will. But that does not diminish the evil of those acts.
laughingdog,
Of course it lacks credible evidence. Dead men tell no tales. I have something else that is incredible for you to look up. In your browser, search engine or whatever. It's called, "The Betrayal of the Cossacks." Then tell me more about your "greatest generation."
 

cultsmasher

Banned
Banned
Joined
Jun 18, 2015
Messages
46
Location
USA
Basic Beliefs
White National Socialism
Laughingdog,
Here's the thing. Hitler may not have been perfect. But as far as you and most other people are concerned, he was a GOD! If the U.S. didn't do everything it could do to slander him, we would be flying a Nazi flag. Also, in the early 30's, Stalin caused up to 10 million Ukrainians to starve to death. He didn't even need "death camps" to do it. That on top of his many other atrocities. Hitler was an angel compared to Stalin. Yot who did we back.
I fail to see any relevance to the issue of how many people the Nazis killed. For some odd reason, you think the Nazis did not even kill 1 million Jews. So what happened to all those Jews?
Also, what you call "serious research" I call "serious bullshit."
You can call it anything you like, but that doesn't make it any less accurate. Until you can provide something other than internet bravado, I will take the results from scholars like Martin Gilbert over the ravings of yet another pathetic Holocaust denier.
laughingdog,
I don't know how many Jews were killed. But I know 6 million weren't. Also, who has the most power to write history to their liking. The U.S. government and its allies, or the few people who are interested in uncovering the real truth. You can believe what you want. I'm in no position to provide you with extradonary proof. But the U.S. isn't the angel you think it is. Ever see the movie "Air America?" That wasn't complete bullshit. I have no doubt that the U.T. imported heroin to support some Laoation warloard who was helping them fight the Vietnamese. It is also known that the U.S. imported cocaine to help out other leaders in other countries who were helping them fight the communists.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom